Cost reduction of vampire skills is a joke since the base cost of some skills are just too high
LadyBugLDB
✭✭
Hi everyone (from a first-time poster, I've read this post several times but I apologize in advance if I missed any typos )
TL'DR: I started this thread after searching the forums for this topic and coming up dry. Everyone is talking about the cost increase of non-vamp abilities at higher stages but has anyone noticed how expensive some of the new vamp skills are to start? I'm reminded of retail gimmicks where they jack up the price of an item before "putting it on sale"
Note: all my thoughts are based 100% from a PvE view (I have never played and have no interest in PvP).
_________
I agree that +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% cost increase for non-vamp skills is too steep and like others have suggested +0%/+5%/+10%/+15% is more toleratable. There are plenty of threads on this topic. What I would like to discuss here is my belief that the discount of vampire is not much of a discount at all.
Yes, there is a -10%/-20%/-30%/-40% decrease in the cost of vamp abilities but has any noticed expensive some of the new vamp skills are. I did search the thread but ppl focus more on the increased cost of non-vamp abilities.
Yes, Eviscerate becomes dirt cheap at higher stages BUT the ult and the cost of Drain is through the roof. The price of Drain now is higher, its does less damage than before and no longer stuns. It takes a 40% reduction just to get it in line with other class abilities that actually do more damage (and stun ... Crushing Shock) (and more healing ... looking at you Hungry Scythe). ZOS jacked up the price while gutting the spell ... yes the range is higher but with Blood Mist and Eviscerate as the stars of the skill line vamp begs to be played as melee now.
Also, the vamp ult is now +50 more than before and more than many other ults in the game ... Take Bone Goliath for example,
while different it does bear some similarity to Scion yet it is 250 (unbuffed).
The cost of Mezmorieze SEEMS too high as well. I will fully admit that I have never had access to an AOE stun. My comparison is with single target stuns such as the old vamp Drain and Crushing Shock. Both are way cheaper. I think that "enemies must be facing you" is a good way to keep the spell from being OP (despite how much I hate that) w/o having to make it expensive as well.
Finally, I don't think mist form is actually cheap enough for the low damage that it does. Yes, it makes you ALMOST unkillable on SOME mobs (but watch out if you are using Blood Frenzy and enemies move out of the small AOE). I understand the impact Blood Mist might have on PvP, but for PVE (and especially on solo), talk about death by a thousand paper cuts. I can drop a mob faster with just light attacks ... jk
While stage 4 pre-Greymoor was not very valuable in PVE (IMO), it may now be needed purely for sustain due to the cost of the vamp skills. But with stage four comes 100% debuff to health regen!!!. Personally, I think the old regen debuff (even w/o the Unnatural Resistance passive at 75% for stage 4) was severe enough. Stage 4 now means you will not be able to heal before fights w/o having a burst heal on your bar (which you won't because of the cost increase) or consuming a potion which is a finite resource with a cooldown. Not being able to regen health between combat is way too crippling in a dungeon (hell even when fighting trash mobs).
To me this all culminates in vamp builds becoming less diverse despite the increase to the number of spells in the skill line. The increased cost of non-vamp abilities, the high base cost of most vamp skills, and the 100% health regen debuff has the likely outcome that most vampire builds being the same despite variation in class and weapons type ...playing melee and spamming Blood Mist and Eviscerate. Trust me that gets boring fast.
All of this is based on my view as a causal PvE player. If you care to read more I have provided context below for my opinion by sharing my history with the game and my playstyle along with how I've experimented on PTS with my Vamp Magcro. I like it/don't love, but ....
_______
I've never posted in the forums before but I've play ESO since beta (with time off here and there). I consider myself a casual PvE player. I've also avoided posting as I feel the forums are frequented by hardcore PvP players (who also do PvE for achievements and to get sets) and thus there is typically not much consideration of other types of player who just want something to help them escape and unwind after work or a fun way to spend a few hours on the weekend.
I only have one main toon and I've only tried my hand at PvP once before deciding it was not for me. I had a guild with my friends at launch and when they stopped playing, I found a new guild. It was then that a guildmate suggested I become a vamp after getting to know my playstyle and what I liked about the game ... THE STORY, THE CHARACTERS, THE ELDER SCROLLS WORLD. I got bit, did the quest and never looked back, Invigorating drain and bat swarm have been in my rotation on my dark elf MagDK build ever since. I met my husband and introduced him to ESO ~3.5 years ago. Since then we spend a large amount of our "date night" and weekends questing through Tamerial together. He's roled several toons but I love my main, I've invested in my build/playstyle and never started over. Fast forward to March when I relocated to the EU and was forced to start a new character from scratch. I decided to try a new class and went with Magcro and I LOVE IT. Its a fun class to play but also immediately became a vamp (yes I admit that on this new toon I bought the bite from the crown store since I went through the quest on my previous main ... with so much new content to play why repeat) and drain and swarm went back into my rotation on this new class as well. With the lack of CC for Necro, the stun from Drain was more useful now than on my DK whereas bat swarm was less so as the grave lord ult does good AOE damage.
Why am I posting for the first time (and ran this post past my hubby since I was so scared folks would attack me) I've never been more excited about an update than the rework for vampire. I am an ESO plus member and I have bought every expansion to date. But I have never once logged into PTS ... never seemed worth it. That was just time I could be spending building up my main. But new vamp skills ... I just couldn't wait.. I want to play around, figure out the changes I would make to my build so I was ready to go day one of Greymoor GA.
Well....
A LOT of people have been complaining about the increase to regular abilities and I tend to agree the increase is a bit steep but necro has one free spell in each line (that I never used) ... the ability cost increase from vamp forced me to consider those and I have found it both fun and challenging as it makes me play my necro in a new way (probably the way it was intended). I now have to think and time things to ensure I have corpses available and I drain them when I need to... Its a much more complicated way to play and not a build I can play with the hubby (he's a clicky clicky slash and kill type ... I can't tell you the number of times I was in the middle of draining a mob just for him to kill it after the first tick).
What I don't see folks talking about is the cost of the vamp skills ... YES, the is a very cheap spammable (personally I hate that it is melee as I like to play ranged as much as possible on my MagDK and especially so on my Magcro) but now that I'm using mist form (blood mist) i'm in melee range anyway and since i"m playing solo I don't have the luxury of the hubby to keep aggro.
Don't get me started on the 100% health regen debuff at stage 4. That means you will not be able to heal before fights w/o having a burst heal on your bar (which you won't because of the cost increase) or consuming a potion which is a finite resource with a cooldown. Lucky for me as a Magcro I do have a free health siphon and 9 times out 10 there is at least on corpse left on the ground at the end of a fight (on PTS when I got desperate I spawned a pet and waited 16 sec for them to die) ... I've always played as a stage 3 vamp ... stage 4 pre Greymoor is not very valuable in PVE imo. But with the need to reduce the cost of the vamp skills as noted above stage 4 may now be needed for sustain. As a casual player I don't have the high-level sets one only gets from completing dungeons and trails on veteran mode.
For me this all culminates in vamp builds becoming less diverse despite the increase to the number of spells in the skill line. Being a vampire now means playing melee and spamming Blood Mist and Eviscerate. Trust me that gets boring fast ... especially since Blood Mist does such low damage ... death by a thousand papercuts. Who would want to hold it for long other than a tank (but they might not have the magika pool to do so anyway)? For me mist form was an oh sh*t button and a main skill.
If you made it this far, thanks so much for reading and giving me the opportunity to share my views on a game and character mod that I love!! Apologies if I sound repetitive, I wrote this from the bottom up.
TL'DR: I started this thread after searching the forums for this topic and coming up dry. Everyone is talking about the cost increase of non-vamp abilities at higher stages but has anyone noticed how expensive some of the new vamp skills are to start? I'm reminded of retail gimmicks where they jack up the price of an item before "putting it on sale"
Note: all my thoughts are based 100% from a PvE view (I have never played and have no interest in PvP).
_________
I agree that +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% cost increase for non-vamp skills is too steep and like others have suggested +0%/+5%/+10%/+15% is more toleratable. There are plenty of threads on this topic. What I would like to discuss here is my belief that the discount of vampire is not much of a discount at all.
Yes, there is a -10%/-20%/-30%/-40% decrease in the cost of vamp abilities but has any noticed expensive some of the new vamp skills are. I did search the thread but ppl focus more on the increased cost of non-vamp abilities.
Yes, Eviscerate becomes dirt cheap at higher stages BUT the ult and the cost of Drain is through the roof. The price of Drain now is higher, its does less damage than before and no longer stuns. It takes a 40% reduction just to get it in line with other class abilities that actually do more damage (and stun ... Crushing Shock) (and more healing ... looking at you Hungry Scythe). ZOS jacked up the price while gutting the spell ... yes the range is higher but with Blood Mist and Eviscerate as the stars of the skill line vamp begs to be played as melee now.
Also, the vamp ult is now +50 more than before and more than many other ults in the game ... Take Bone Goliath for example,
while different it does bear some similarity to Scion yet it is 250 (unbuffed).
The cost of Mezmorieze SEEMS too high as well. I will fully admit that I have never had access to an AOE stun. My comparison is with single target stuns such as the old vamp Drain and Crushing Shock. Both are way cheaper. I think that "enemies must be facing you" is a good way to keep the spell from being OP (despite how much I hate that) w/o having to make it expensive as well.
Finally, I don't think mist form is actually cheap enough for the low damage that it does. Yes, it makes you ALMOST unkillable on SOME mobs (but watch out if you are using Blood Frenzy and enemies move out of the small AOE). I understand the impact Blood Mist might have on PvP, but for PVE (and especially on solo), talk about death by a thousand paper cuts. I can drop a mob faster with just light attacks ... jk
While stage 4 pre-Greymoor was not very valuable in PVE (IMO), it may now be needed purely for sustain due to the cost of the vamp skills. But with stage four comes 100% debuff to health regen!!!. Personally, I think the old regen debuff (even w/o the Unnatural Resistance passive at 75% for stage 4) was severe enough. Stage 4 now means you will not be able to heal before fights w/o having a burst heal on your bar (which you won't because of the cost increase) or consuming a potion which is a finite resource with a cooldown. Not being able to regen health between combat is way too crippling in a dungeon (hell even when fighting trash mobs).
To me this all culminates in vamp builds becoming less diverse despite the increase to the number of spells in the skill line. The increased cost of non-vamp abilities, the high base cost of most vamp skills, and the 100% health regen debuff has the likely outcome that most vampire builds being the same despite variation in class and weapons type ...playing melee and spamming Blood Mist and Eviscerate. Trust me that gets boring fast.
All of this is based on my view as a causal PvE player. If you care to read more I have provided context below for my opinion by sharing my history with the game and my playstyle along with how I've experimented on PTS with my Vamp Magcro. I like it/don't love, but ....
_______
I've never posted in the forums before but I've play ESO since beta (with time off here and there). I consider myself a casual PvE player. I've also avoided posting as I feel the forums are frequented by hardcore PvP players (who also do PvE for achievements and to get sets) and thus there is typically not much consideration of other types of player who just want something to help them escape and unwind after work or a fun way to spend a few hours on the weekend.
I only have one main toon and I've only tried my hand at PvP once before deciding it was not for me. I had a guild with my friends at launch and when they stopped playing, I found a new guild. It was then that a guildmate suggested I become a vamp after getting to know my playstyle and what I liked about the game ... THE STORY, THE CHARACTERS, THE ELDER SCROLLS WORLD. I got bit, did the quest and never looked back, Invigorating drain and bat swarm have been in my rotation on my dark elf MagDK build ever since. I met my husband and introduced him to ESO ~3.5 years ago. Since then we spend a large amount of our "date night" and weekends questing through Tamerial together. He's roled several toons but I love my main, I've invested in my build/playstyle and never started over. Fast forward to March when I relocated to the EU and was forced to start a new character from scratch. I decided to try a new class and went with Magcro and I LOVE IT. Its a fun class to play but also immediately became a vamp (yes I admit that on this new toon I bought the bite from the crown store since I went through the quest on my previous main ... with so much new content to play why repeat) and drain and swarm went back into my rotation on this new class as well. With the lack of CC for Necro, the stun from Drain was more useful now than on my DK whereas bat swarm was less so as the grave lord ult does good AOE damage.
Why am I posting for the first time (and ran this post past my hubby since I was so scared folks would attack me) I've never been more excited about an update than the rework for vampire. I am an ESO plus member and I have bought every expansion to date. But I have never once logged into PTS ... never seemed worth it. That was just time I could be spending building up my main. But new vamp skills ... I just couldn't wait.. I want to play around, figure out the changes I would make to my build so I was ready to go day one of Greymoor GA.
Well....
A LOT of people have been complaining about the increase to regular abilities and I tend to agree the increase is a bit steep but necro has one free spell in each line (that I never used) ... the ability cost increase from vamp forced me to consider those and I have found it both fun and challenging as it makes me play my necro in a new way (probably the way it was intended). I now have to think and time things to ensure I have corpses available and I drain them when I need to... Its a much more complicated way to play and not a build I can play with the hubby (he's a clicky clicky slash and kill type ... I can't tell you the number of times I was in the middle of draining a mob just for him to kill it after the first tick).
What I don't see folks talking about is the cost of the vamp skills ... YES, the is a very cheap spammable (personally I hate that it is melee as I like to play ranged as much as possible on my MagDK and especially so on my Magcro) but now that I'm using mist form (blood mist) i'm in melee range anyway and since i"m playing solo I don't have the luxury of the hubby to keep aggro.
Don't get me started on the 100% health regen debuff at stage 4. That means you will not be able to heal before fights w/o having a burst heal on your bar (which you won't because of the cost increase) or consuming a potion which is a finite resource with a cooldown. Lucky for me as a Magcro I do have a free health siphon and 9 times out 10 there is at least on corpse left on the ground at the end of a fight (on PTS when I got desperate I spawned a pet and waited 16 sec for them to die) ... I've always played as a stage 3 vamp ... stage 4 pre Greymoor is not very valuable in PVE imo. But with the need to reduce the cost of the vamp skills as noted above stage 4 may now be needed for sustain. As a casual player I don't have the high-level sets one only gets from completing dungeons and trails on veteran mode.
For me this all culminates in vamp builds becoming less diverse despite the increase to the number of spells in the skill line. Being a vampire now means playing melee and spamming Blood Mist and Eviscerate. Trust me that gets boring fast ... especially since Blood Mist does such low damage ... death by a thousand papercuts. Who would want to hold it for long other than a tank (but they might not have the magika pool to do so anyway)? For me mist form was an oh sh*t button and a main skill.
If you made it this far, thanks so much for reading and giving me the opportunity to share my views on a game and character mod that I love!! Apologies if I sound repetitive, I wrote this from the bottom up.
7
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JanTanhide✭✭✭✭✭
✭Whew...lot to read. Have to agree though. I think most of my Vamps will become non vamps when Greymoor drops. Just not viable to run Vampire on my builds. Sigh.6 -
LadyBugLDB✭✭JanTanhide wrote: »Whew...lot to read. Have to agree though. I think most of my Vamps will become non vamps when Greymoor drops. Just not viable to run Vampire on my builds. Sigh.
Yeah I got a little carried away when writing my post, to say the least ;-) Gotta love the excuse a TLDR provides for a lengthy post. I never thought anyone would make it through the whole thing ... thanks for that!!!0 -
Skykaiser_Ọlọrun✭✭✭Yeah, 40% off the Blood Scion ultimate sounded nice until you log on and see that the base cost is so high that the discount ends up not being a discount at all. Especially since you can't build ult while it's active.
I think they were a little too concerned with piling downsides on the vampire skills.9 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Only time blood scion becomes cheap enough that it becomes a cheaper ultimate to slot than my other ultimates is when I run stage 4, And stage 4 obviously has a lot of problems associated with it already. Sure the stage 4 passive is very useful for cheesing PVE areas and scouting in PVP, but that's all it really is good for. Its not really going to help you in a fight because nobody is just going to let you casually run around for 3 seconds so you can get your invisibility back. I tried to do it and it was not worth it since in those 3 seconds your foe is back to full health and is combat capable in that span of time.
And Skykaiser has a point as It feels like they were so scared of making vampire OP that they piled on as many debuffs as they could to justify Strike from the Shadows and Blood Frenzy being a thing. Instead of you know.... giving us cool abilities like a guided bat AOE that follows people, a vampiric drain that applies a snare to the target so its harder for them to close the gap and bash you, or other forms of blood magic spells like a projectile shot the vampire lord had in Skyrim. They have so much source material to work with and they decided that player vampires should have more in common with a ravenous bloodfiend than vampires from other games.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK1 -
MinnesotaKid✭✭✭JanTanhide wrote: »Whew...lot to read. Have to agree though. I think most of my Vamps will become non vamps when Greymoor drops. Just not viable to run Vampire on my builds. Sigh.
Have to agree too... sadly I'm trying to figure out which toons to take vamp off of, not which ones to use. I currently have 15 of my 18 are vamps but by the time I'm done I'm thinking it'll be around 5 or 6 that run it.
oh the irony....MinnesotaKid2