Sunderflame Dual Wield Stealth nerf?

emsuperman24

It was brought to my attention that the sunderflame set no longer procs twice on dw heavy attacks on the pts. Is this an intended fix? @ZOS_GinaBruno

I realize this will probably get little to no attention since very few people even use the set, but I don't see the reason for this change. No one is complaining about it and there would be little to no data suggesting the set is over performing.

GeorgeBlack

But they buffed spectral cloak

Austinseph1

Obviously the intention of the set wasn't to have double its effectiveness on one type of meele weapon. I see why they made the change even if it isn't widely used (possibly because people didn't think you could exploit it like that).

emsuperman24

(5 items) When you deal damage with a fully-charged Heavy Attack, you deal an additional 4000 Flame Damage and apply Minor Breach and Minor Fracture to the enemy, reducing their Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 1320 for 8 seconds.

That's the descripton of the set and since you heavy attack with two separate hands I would think it's obvious it apply to both hits. Otherwise why does sergeant mail, elegance, undaunted infiltrator and a whole host of other sets effect both hands?

As far as exploiting I really disagree. Is it a unique set, for a unique build with a unique effect? Sure. Exploiting? hardly. An extra 800-1200 damage a hit for a particular type of weapon that isn't even remotely used as much as 2h or even 1h shield (pvp).

The motto of the game is play how you want. But yet everything in the game bottlenecks you to play a certain way. I should just use dw the intended way backbar it and have brp dw. Throw on a much more exploitative set nma and call it a day. I mean it's disheartening that anything outside the norm is seen as unfair when effective.

And yet things like blastbones which are locked behind a pay class with incredibly more toxic mechanics are left alone.

O well nothing I can do. And I won't get any feedback, or answers since this was addressed without being added to the patch notes, so it is what it is.

satanio

During LA and HA prepatch, sunderflame worked as you describe. Set was good for full heavy attacks rotation DK, almost better than relequen.

I, too, mourn for this set.

ThePedge

In the first week they did the same change to Savage Werewolf set, must have missed Sunderflame from the notes.

psychotic13

Should be fixed, you're only questioning it cause you run a build which abuses that mechanic lol.

emsuperman24

How fitting that a guy named psychotic illustrates the point of the current state of the community.


Again, O well. It was fun and the set had a ultra specific niche, but may we be strict fundamentalist on the issues. Zos has not let us down forgive me for the blasphemy that I have incurred. LOL Laugh out loud

Lloydmp

psychotic13 wrote: »

Should be fixed, you're only questioning it cause you run a build which abuses that mechanic lol.

Enchants shouldn't proc off each weapon then either. Since we are making everything the same why not a a destro staff giving the same WD/SD as 2h?

Also let's remove the armor enchant etc from sheild since this is part of a weapon set too.

Lol...

wheem_ESO

Why should a particular set bonus be literally twice as powerful just because the wearer is using dual wield? It seems painfully obvious that this was a fix for an unintended exploit, which was giving way too much damage for simply holding down the left mouse button...while you also gained resources.

emsuperman24

Why should a particular spammable (dizzying swing) be literally twice as powerful just because the player is using 2h? It seems painfully obvious that this was a fix for an unintended exploit, which was giving way too much damage, a stun, off balance and a snare for simply clicking a button...

Now I'm not saying nerf dizzy but that would be a much more sensible question to ask.

wheem_ESO

emsuperman24 wrote: »

Why should a particular spammable (dizzying swing) be literally twice as powerful just because the player is using 2h? It seems painfully obvious that this was a fix for an unintended exploit, which was giving way too much damage, a stun, off balance and a snare for simply clicking a button...

Now I'm not saying nerf dizzy but that would be a much more sensible question to ask.

Of course Dizzying Swing is overpowered. But that doesn't mean that this set should give 2x the bonus just for using dual wield and holding down the left mouse button. Especially given how OP the heavy attacks already are on a Stam DK.

'Course, you could always combine Dizzying Swing and Sunderflame Dual Wield together in one build. There's a solid player on PC-NA that does exactly that in BGs. Pops a Dizzying Swing, then bar swaps into a Dual Wield heavy attack (which takes what, 1 - 1.5 seconds?) for somewhere around 5k-8k damage + Sunderflame double proc + stun. All while having really strong mobility and self healing thanks to being Stam DK (or just Stam in general, tbh).

Anyway, to put my previous post a slightly different way: should the Spell Strategist set give double the bonus for light attacking with a Lightning Staff instead of a different weapon type? I doubt many people would say yes, and if it did just so happen to function that way on the live servers, I think most people would consider it a bug or oversight of some kind.

Of course it stinks to have your preferred build/playstyle get nerfed, but this one really is deserved.

emsuperman24

@wheem_ESO

You seem like a fairly reasonable person, but It seems obvious to me you have a disdain for stam classes in general. Which is fine I have seen that point argued here many times on the forums and I see some merit to that conversation.

But you are making some inaccurate statements and I really believe your disdain for stamina is blinding you from the truth about some of your positions.

1. Heavy attack "op" on stamina dk. Please go try that before you make such an absurd statement. Light attacks do more damage than heavy attacks in a fraction of the time.

To prove this very quickly I ran out and put on some generic gear 5nma/ 3 agi and some golden weapons and tested damage on an overland mob.

Results
LA damage 5527 with molten arnaments active and nothing else
HA damage 5306 with molten arnaments (50% extra damage to ha) per hand

Yes you do 10,612 damage a heavy attack rotation but that's in 1.6 seconds time
On a la weave with animation cancel you can get minimum 2 light attacks plus a skill if not 2 before you can land a single heavy.
How by any stretch of the imagination is this op?

Now if you want to argue that I'm not specced for heavy well you might somewhat have an argument although to get better damage on your heavy's you need to use sets like sergeants mail and sunder flame and focus solely on heavy attack damage while losing healing power and overall damage to all your other skills. So there is a huge tradeoff to specialize into something rather than just being good at everything.

Since you seem to be more Mag focused anyway imagine having time to place a curse and drop 3 frags in the time I can do 2 dw heavy attacks? That's obviously never going to happen in pvp because no one will stand still, but perspective for damage comparison. I believe 3 frags plus a curse would be comparable if not superior in damage. So again are stam dks using heavy op as you claim?

2.As for your second point landing dizzy plus ha attack dual wield requires 2.4 secs. Anyone that lets you land both those in succession probably deserves to be minced meat. Again use sorc as an example what if someone just let you hit crystal frags twice to the face? 5-8k damage minimum yea? And if your complaining about the stun on off balance well there is a 15 sec cooldown and a sorc can add streak with those 2 frags in the same time it takes for dizzy, bar swap heavy. Templar jab spam at you for 2.5 seconds and see if the damage isn't greater.

But lets get back to the real point. SUNDERFLAME, lets forget heavy's and dizzy. Because what we are addressing is that. Now allowing sunderflame two proc twice adds an additional 800-1300 damage depending on target in pvp. You give up 5 piece bonus to get 1000 more damage while sacrificing sets like nma 481 weapon damage to achieve that. Is that really exploiting? Your losing 500+ weapon damage after buffs on alll skills, light attacks, heavy attacks and all healing! FOR FFS am I on crazy pills? This is not directly pointed at you but the idea that so many people can be so adherent to nerf for "standardization" without using common sense is frightening.

So what if it's only available for dual wield? Don't all stamina classes have access to dw? and like I said is dizzy not superior and way more overloaded then anything that dw has? SO what if it's unfair roll 2h if that's what you want. Why make everything so vanilla. Lastly everyone here claiming exploit also realize sunderflame procs fire damage and your using dw stamina weapons. You have 0 spell penetration. Why even one person feels this needed to be curtailed just amazes me. Again strict adherence to just watering things down so everyone can be the same is ludacris.

3.Finally your point about spell strategist is mute. Should arbitrarily picking lighting staff be able to proc spell Strat twice? no. But sunderflame is not arbitrary read the description and think about the mechanic. You are using 2 weapons to deliver two different blows while fully charging heavy attacks. With light staff you are still doing a singular light attack to proc a singular effect. One hit equals one proc. Two hits equals two procs.

As I mentioned earlier sets like sergeants mail, elegance and infiltrator all apply to both so why can't sets like sunderfalme? Should sets such as elegance only apply to half the attacks? Every other heavy or light attack only gets the bonus? If your arguing consistency then do that. If suddenly proc sets with dw become meta and over perform can we individually adjust them and monitor them? Yes. But instead blanket nerf everything so that a set that guarantee is used by less then 1% of the total population will be used by 0% of the population, so we have to get our dlc and new shiny gear.

Also a more appropriate thought experiment than your light staff one in relation to mag/stam disparity would be harmony trait and necro. Should we nerf harmony because only one class can self activate and gain an advantage from it? Or can we let a class be unique and do something that others don't. Also in relation to that thought experiment everyone can use dw and sunderflame, only people who have necro can use the harmony trait.


Anyway it's obvious I'll be agreeing to disagree with anyone remotely convinced this was a necessary nerf, especially when so many more broken mechanics need addressing. I will do my best from refraining from answering anymore since this a done deal and no one at zos will address this. The balls in your court as far as response and I hope I did not offend or disrespect you in the process while laying out this rebuttal.