A plea from a Necromancer, Werewolf, and Vampire player regarding the bounty system for questing

Katrk

Hello, and I hope you’re having a wonderful day. I have come to this forum to implore ZOS fix some very game breaking instances with their bounty system for some skills. Many of you as well very well may know, in town or in the wild if a justice system none playable character sees you using the form you will gain considerable bounty depending on how many NPC’s see it. During quests, I have been accumulating a very large amount of bounties by simply using the Bone Goliath in a boss fights or NPC fights in cities, delves, and in the wilds simply wherever fighting whenever a justice system NPC is. I am asking, no quite frankly begging that Zenimax removes the chance of gaining a bounty during quests, period.

With the vampire and werewolf justice system coming in the next expansion I am having a lot of anxiety regarding these changes because they will literally impede my fun in questing and destroy my characters that are built around these play styles.It is fine that in none questing areas in cites will gain you a bounty, but in questing areas this must turned off. I will leave the short, but I very much hope that Zenimax will fix these problems in the near future. With COVID-19 I understand that there will be a little time to fix many problems such as these at this time.

Thank you for developing a fun game that I very much enjoy. Farewell.

Taleof2Cities

Don't use skills in town, @Katrk. That's it.

There's nothing difficult or immersion-breaking about not using skills in designated areas.

I leveled a necromancer to 50 without incurring any bounty ... you can too.

RefLiberty

"Zenimax removes the chance of gaining a bounty during quests, period."

Impossible.
Unless you abandoned all quests, or you have entire game done, with 0 quests in your Journal, you will always have a quest active, which means that said above actually means, cancel criminal act or bounty system in general for skills marked as criminal act.

What do you mean "during quests", you are always under a quest, as long as you have something in your quest journal.

Katrk

RefLiberty wrote: »

"Zenimax removes the chance of gaining a bounty during quests, period."

Impossible.
Unless you abandoned all quests, or you have entire game done, with 0 quests in your Journal, you will always have a quest active, which means that said above actually means, cancel criminal act or bounty system in general for skills marked as criminal act.

What do you mean "during quests", you are always under a quest, as long as you have something in your quest journal.

During areas’s designated questing zones in parts of a city or Locations you would not gain a bounty upon using criminal skills. For instances, you could activate Bone Colossus without gaining a bounty while fighting the werewolf boss in Daggerfall because it would be designated a questing area.

Ratzkifal

If this is a big problem to you, you might want to pick up the Dark Brotherhood DLC and get yourself the Shadowy Supplier. Ask for something to make you less noticeable every day and use the items she gives you to decrease your bounty or disguise yourself as a peaceful monk that the guards and merchants don't recognize as a criminal.

Dusk_Coven

The problem isn't questing.
The problem is wanting the power fantasy without ZOS's prepackaging the societal role into it.
ZOS seems to feel that Criminal Acts are an important way of experiencing that particular role (Necro / Vamp / WW) because that societal role is part of the power fantasy package and lore of the land.
Pushback against the Criminal Acts is a feeling that there are a lack of opportunities to play without that inconvenience and still have the power fantasy. Whether this is fair/appropriate is another debate.

I suggested something quite-lore-friendly in the way of a perk passive, "Known to the Authorities"
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/518933/vampire-criminal-act-skills-passive-known-to-authorities

Another option would be a feature to quickly change your character's skill and gear loadout so that you can switch builds easily whenever you wanted to enter Criminal Act spaces without hassle.
There are certainly more than enough skill options and skill points to have multiple viable loadouts, some of them entirely without Criminal Act flags at all.

Calarax

For me...with characters that are Were...Vamp..Necro....I welcome the peace of porting to a Way Shrine..and not seeing two Were/Vamp/Necro's dueling and bogging down everyone's frame rate. These things should be a crime in "acceptable society".

ganzaeso

There was a reason that werewolves and vampires were not added to the justice system when it was first introduced. It was discussed in length and a decision was made not to include it. Now the developers are doubling back on that decision.

This decision is just going to create inconvenience for players for no real added enjoyment of the game.

Stage 4 Vampirism is going to be a pain to manage for those who like to craft and also like to play their vampires in PvE/PvP.

Werewolf, Vampire, and Necromancer have no safeguards for accidentally activating their skills in areas where the justice system will detect them.

Simply adding the skills to the prevent attacking innocents options and checking to see if a bounty would incur before casting them would help some.

I really don't see why they would want to inconvenience their customers.

Aigym_Hlervu

Katrk wrote: »

I have come to this forum to implore ZOS fix some very game breaking instances with their bounty system for some skills. ... During quests, I have been accumulating a very large amount of bounties by simply using the Bone Goliath in a boss fights or NPC fights in cities, delves, and in the wilds simply wherever fighting whenever a justice system NPC is. I am asking, no quite frankly begging that Zenimax removes the chance of gaining a bounty during quests, period.

With the vampire and werewolf justice system coming in the next expansion I am having a lot of anxiety regarding these changes because they will literally impede my fun in questing and destroy my characters that are built around these play styles.

What?! A repeat violent offender asks to make the guards be less strict because it ruins his fun to kill people?! You seem to be completely out of it. It's totally an unheard-of impudence! You intentionally build your characters to commit violence and now you beg to stay unpunished? Is that what you ask, really?

I am a shapeshifting sorcerer there myself, I never transform into a werewolf in public places and I understand that it is law breaking to transform into a werewolf in public places because people simply fear werewolves - they don't know what to expect of it! No, better yet they know what to expect of it - a quick but violent death. They don't have neither time nor chance to ask a werewolf if he is a TES III: Bloodmoon type of a werewolf who can't control his transformations and bloodlust or if he is one of the ESO types, say, a wizard who bought the scroll, read it and transforms at will even without the necessity to perform the Hircine's ritual at all, who's just a shapeshifting mage with no bound to a Daedric Prince of Hunt. Their default thoughts will be: "This mer is a bloodlusting werewolf! Run for your life!". This is why werewolves are not welcome on public. It is a weapon, an uncontrollable weapon by default and no-one knows what to expect of it. So if you use it, you have to use wisely away from public places. Can you understand it? If you don't, then you'd better play games a bit less complicated like Pinball or something. Or you will pay fines to those guards for such miscomprehension and all the violence you commit there.

Such ideas as yours have already made TES games become more and more simplified since the TES IV times. Absolutely wrong idea.

Thevampirenight

Well the stage four vampirims if you use the one vampire ability on npcs that won't be much of an issue, also don't get a bounty for being stage four either so you'll be mostly fine when it comes to the Vampire which isn't as seriously punished by the justice system as the werewolf is. Running around and being seen by any npc in werewolf form will give you a bounty. Even if they don't see you transform. So I do think the bounty system is more punishing for Lycanthropes even using vampire skills doesn't give as high a bounty from what I saw.
Npcs will shun you at stage four but that can be worked around. People see you in werewolf form and they will give you a bounty.

Though if I was them, I would just make Mist form and Blood Scion a Crime.
Then make werewolf form itself a crime and leave it at that. I think they are going overboard with the justice system.
Blood Frenzy Visuals don't feel like its criminal. Vampiric Drain is like the same ability that Nightblades can use its a type of absorb magic. So why isn't that nightblade ability criminal.
Why are the werewolf abilties criminal when just being seen in the from is a crime plus the ultimate should just be the only criminal offense along with being seen in the form.

So I do think they could do better with it.

starkerealm

RefLiberty wrote: »

"Zenimax removes the chance of gaining a bounty during quests, period."

Impossible.
Unless you abandoned all quests, or you have entire game done, with 0 quests in your Journal, you will always have a quest active, which means that said above actually means, cancel criminal act or bounty system in general for skills marked as criminal act.

What do you mean "during quests", you are always under a quest, as long as you have something in your quest journal.

NPCs who are vital to quests will not report crimes. This actually extends beyond just the criminal skills and includes things like theft and murder.

For example, if a quest sends an NPC to chase you down and talk to you, or to go with you for the quest, they won't respond to you breaking the law.

Justice NPCs, and non-quest NPCs who are exempted from the justice system (like merchants, bards, and bankers) will still report you. And, of course, actual guards will also report your crimes.

There's a gray area with NPCs like the soldiers in sieges, they shouldn't report, though some of them might.

Of course, the actual answer is to simply be careful with your "illegal" abilities in civilized areas. Just because an NPC might not report you to the guards doesn't mean it's safe to use.

RedFireDisco

I leveled a necro and it was a pain in the A.

No real gain but I kept getting sighted and bounties when I thought I was nowhere near towns, et al.

Not entirely sure why this is fun? It's just a massive drawback that you don't have with other classes with no literal benefit.

Since when is a punishment with no reward, fun?

I get that role players and lifers will defend anything, anytime but that's not really discussing the core issue.

Getting a bounty for using class mechanics, sucks.

Just roll a Sorc

TaeRai

I have played three necromancer, four vampires and two werewolves. Spamming abilities in a quest area that you KNOW will get you a bounty and then crying about it on the forums? No, these beings are hated by the good people of Tamriel and getting in my opinion, they should actually become HOSTILE on sight.

Just my 2 cents.

Noxavian

Katrk wrote: »

Hello, and I hope you’re having a wonderful day. I have come to this forum to implore ZOS fix some very game breaking instances with their bounty system for some skills. Many of you as well very well may know, in town or in the wild if a justice system none playable character sees you using the form you will gain considerable bounty depending on how many NPC’s see it. During quests, I have been accumulating a very large amount of bounties by simply using the Bone Goliath in a boss fights or NPC fights in cities, delves, and in the wilds simply wherever fighting whenever a justice system NPC is. I am asking, no quite frankly begging that Zenimax removes the chance of gaining a bounty during quests, period.

With the vampire and werewolf justice system coming in the next expansion I am having a lot of anxiety regarding these changes because they will literally impede my fun in questing and destroy my characters that are built around these play styles.It is fine that in none questing areas in cites will gain you a bounty, but in questing areas this must turned off. I will leave the short, but I very much hope that Zenimax will fix these problems in the near future. With COVID-19 I understand that there will be a little time to fix many problems such as these at this time.

Thank you for developing a fun game that I very much enjoy. Farewell.

Just don't use skills in town.

It isn't complicated nor hard

idk

OP seems unfamiliar with being a vampire or werewolf in previous TES games. People would flee or attack a werewolf and if you were seen transforming then it was a major crime. Vampires would get attacked in stage 4.

Basically, anything that revealed you were a WW or Vamp brought the wrath of the city upon you. It was not game breaking as both are considered curses that are a danger to the people. Necromancy is viewed as a danger to the people in this time period as well.

So, these changes are not game-breaking. It just required paying attention to where you have and having some self-control. If anything, these changes are very immersive.

SpacemanSpiff1

I say they should add to the list of criminal activities. make combat pets and dueling illegal too. clean up tamriel.

Sibenice

Nope. System's fine. I'm glad that there's a penalty for those things because it makes the game feel more immersive. You just have to be more careful in towns.

This coming from a necromancer main who has leveled multiple vampires and werewolves. I have never gotten a bounty higher than like 1000 from fat-fingering the wrong button.

ganzaeso

Perhaps they should add unsheathing weapons to the list of criminal acts just to be fair to all players.

Dusk_Coven

ganzaeso wrote: »

There was a reason that werewolves and vampires were not added to the justice system when it was first introduced. It was discussed in length and a decision was made not to include it.

Can you link a source to this?

starkerealm

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

ganzaeso wrote: »

There was a reason that werewolves and vampires were not added to the justice system when it was first introduced. It was discussed in length and a decision was made not to include it.

Can you link a source to this?

Not sure about that, but I remember asking Rich in an interview ahead of Elsweyr if Werewolves and Vampires would be affected by the Criminal Act skill system that was added for Necromancers. Though, I can't remember his exact response.

The idea was around, in the community, back when the Justice system was first added, and hotly debated on these boards, but, again, it didn't happen.

Jeremy

Katrk wrote: »

Hello, and I hope you’re having a wonderful day. I have come to this forum to implore ZOS fix some very game breaking instances with their bounty system for some skills. Many of you as well very well may know, in town or in the wild if a justice system none playable character sees you using the form you will gain considerable bounty depending on how many NPC’s see it. During quests, I have been accumulating a very large amount of bounties by simply using the Bone Goliath in a boss fights or NPC fights in cities, delves, and in the wilds simply wherever fighting whenever a justice system NPC is. I am asking, no quite frankly begging that Zenimax removes the chance of gaining a bounty during quests, period.

With the vampire and werewolf justice system coming in the next expansion I am having a lot of anxiety regarding these changes because they will literally impede my fun in questing and destroy my characters that are built around these play styles.It is fine that in none questing areas in cites will gain you a bounty, but in questing areas this must turned off. I will leave the short, but I very much hope that Zenimax will fix these problems in the near future. With COVID-19 I understand that there will be a little time to fix many problems such as these at this time.

Thank you for developing a fun game that I very much enjoy. Farewell.

It can be annoying, for sure - especially when you are in a habit of using Mist Form in town to move around quicker on foot. I have already killed myself many times in town on the PTS. lol ; ;

Best advice I can give is try to be careful and get that Swiftly Forgotten passive from the Thieves Guild fully leveled. That skill helps a lot to degrade your bounty faster.

Thevampirenight

Here is the thing, I really wished they would be realsitic about it.
Vampire abilties have never been criminal acts except the Vampire Lord in the Single Player games. In Morrowind if you talk to some npcs they might attack you. Though I don't think you got a bounty for killing them because it was self defense. Vanilla Skyrim stage four did get npcs attacking you on sight and that was removed with Dawnguard. Oblivion stage four got you shunned and you couldn't interact very well with npcs but that is it. Oblivions system was neat. If you had a high bounty and did something like murder an npc and you were stage four they would refuse to yield if you were a stage four vampire but otherwise that was the only thing about Vampire in that game.
Werewolves have been kill on sight by every npc that sees it I guess in Morrowind and Skyrim. Vampire Lord was the same but I did some some cases where dunmer didn't attack me on sight for some strange reason when I played dragonborn.

The only abilties from those two skillines that should be criminal.
Blood Scion, Mist form for Vampires
F
The Werewolf Transformation for werewolves and that is it.
Everyone would likely know the legends of mist from immortal blood. They would know that would be a vampiric power and that would expose them. Blood Scion is a scary transformation that looks horrible and that would make sense for it being a crime.
Werewolf is a very dangerous killing machine and so it being criminal always makes sense.
So I would like to see realisism here.
Nothing about Vampiric Drain looks criminal.
Nothing bout Blood Frenzy in its current state that doesn't even look like its doing anything. No blood bursting out no bleeding out no red glowing eyes nothing screams vampiric. The new Vampiric Drain looks more like the absorption spells seen in Oblivion mixed with the effects seen in Skyrim and to some like something from Ghost busters. Now if it kept the old animation then maybe I can see it being criminal as it does look like your transferring blood out of a victim into the caster. But this new animation and mechanic no it shouldn't be criminal. I mean its just like a beam spell nothing about it screams horrific vampire. They might as well make all magic a criminal act if that is going to be or make all nightblade abilties like it and other spells that looks like the new vampiric drain a criminal act.

Nord_Raseri

To everyone clamoring on about realism, It would only make sense for werewolves IF an npc witnesses you either transforming to, or from, werewolf form. There'd be no other way for an npc to know it is you. Same goes for scion and bone goliath. Random werewolf quickly runs through town, " hey! That ratfaced werewolf with the mickey mouse gloves is Nord! Hurry, telepathically tell all guards throughout all of Tamriel!". 'realism'

FrancisCrawford

starkerealm wrote: »

NPCs who are vital to quests will not report crimes. This actually extends beyond just the criminal skills and includes things like theft and murder.

For example, if a quest sends an NPC to chase you down and talk to you, or to go with you for the quest, they won't respond to you breaking the law.

Long ago, when I was doing the Wrothgar main quest line, King Kurog's shield-wife put a bounty on me.

Now, this probably happened after I had the quest dialog with her, so technically this needn't violate what you suggested, but the rules for your assertion are finicky at best.

FrancisCrawford

Katrk wrote: »

Hello, and I hope you’re having a wonderful day. I have come to this forum to implore ZOS fix some very game breaking instances with their bounty system for some skills. Many of you as well very well may know, in town or in the wild if a justice system none playable character sees you using the form you will gain considerable bounty depending on how many NPC’s see it. During quests, I have been accumulating a very large amount of bounties by simply using the Bone Goliath in a boss fights or NPC fights in cities, delves, and in the wilds simply wherever fighting whenever a justice system NPC is. I am asking, no quite frankly begging that Zenimax removes the chance of gaining a bounty during quests, period.

With the vampire and werewolf justice system coming in the next expansion I am having a lot of anxiety regarding these changes because they will literally impede my fun in questing and destroy my characters that are built around these play styles.It is fine that in none questing areas in cites will gain you a bounty, but in questing areas this must turned off. I will leave the short, but I very much hope that Zenimax will fix these problems in the near future. With COVID-19 I understand that there will be a little time to fix many problems such as these at this time.

Thank you for developing a fun game that I very much enjoy. Farewell.

You could surely do those quests successfully while avoiding the forbidden skills. Why is this distasteful to you?

• If the reason is RP -- well, ZoS has made its RP choice in that respect, it's not the choice you want, and you're probably stuck.
• If the reason is combat power -- well, think a bit more imaginatively about build alternatives.

starkerealm

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

NPCs who are vital to quests will not report crimes. This actually extends beyond just the criminal skills and includes things like theft and murder.

For example, if a quest sends an NPC to chase you down and talk to you, or to go with you for the quest, they won't respond to you breaking the law.

Long ago, when I was doing the Wrothgar main quest line, King Kurog's shield-wife put a bounty on me.

Now, this probably happened after I had the quest dialog with her, so technically this needn't violate what you suggested, but the rules for your assertion are finicky at best.

That was probably a bug.

Toanis

RefLiberty wrote: »

"What do you mean "during quests", you are always under a quest, as long as you have something in your quest journal.

One example would be Thizzrini Arena in Reaper's March. The crowd cheers when you brutally slaugther their champions, nobody cares when you sic a wild animal or even daedra at them, but when you summon a ghost to defend yourself, everyone gets upset, you end up with a bounty on your head, and will be accosted by a guard as soon as you leave the arena.

The whole setup is a mortal combat fight club with the audience mainly being there for betting and entertainment, when you somehow offend them, you'd expect them to leave the authorities out of it and rather make the next fight harder for you.

Prrasha

To the "just don't do it in town" folks... is that a change on the PTS?

Because currently, on live, my necro will get Justice-ganked by the merchant NPCs that wander the roads outside of town. And not just for using the banned skills in front of them, but for things like "having my 16-second pet/DoT following me around after combat."

Starlock

Could the OP clarify where, specifically, they are running into issues and how?I've run through a bunch of story with my necromancer character and never once got a bounty on her. What exactly is the OP doing that this is such an issue?

OneForSorrow

I quite enjoy the bounty system, adds to the RP-ness of it all.

What could use some substantial cleaning up is what counts as a witness.

Me opening a lockbox and a guard sees me so I get a bounty = cool
Me opening a lockbox and a goat sees me so I get a bounty = what?

Tommy_The_Gun

The only problem I have with WW justice system bounty is how poorly it is executed.

Werewolf running through town kinda makes sense to get attention, but the problem is:
- You get bounty for using WW ulti.
- You also gain bounty from using WW skills.
- Additionally you get bounty just for being seen in WW form.

This means that if some one sees you running by in ww form, not fighting and using WW skills - you will get a bounty.

And this is fine, but: The bounty does not decay / is gone if you transform back to human form. NPCs can somehow identify you even if they did not saw you transforming into WW and back to human form.

If we are going to RP / immersive area, attaching bounty system to skills that are "outlawed" in game's lore, then at least make it so it would make sense.

If no one saw me transforming into WW and back to human, and all they saw was a random werewolf running by, bounty should be gone the moment I turn back human, as there is no way some one will be able to tell a shape-shifter is a shape-shifter.

Imagine if every one would be able to identify Clark Kent as a Super Man, despite him using a phone booth to dress up ito super hero outfit. It is just ridiculous.