Classic TES Feature: Difficulty Slider
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ArchMikem✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭HailstoSithis wrote: »
So the player scales to the content. They could implement into the GUI, a slider like the post suggests and allow you to adjust your personal character scale lower than the game has you scaled to. you would basically be moving the slider the bar up and it would be scaling you negatively. That with more loot incentive, sounds like a win to me.
Then what's the point of Character Levels if you choose your own difficulty.CP2,000 Master Explorer - AvA One Star General - Console Peasant - Khajiiti Aficionado - The Clan
Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
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Greater challenge = greater reward. This is foundational to how MMO's work. Following your logic vet dungeons/trials shouldn't drop better gear than their normal versions and vet trials shouldn't drop plunder.
Regardless this whole difficulty slider in an MMO thing isn't really feasible. Even if there were a way to implement it logically, it sounds like it would mean the Insertion of a whole lot of additional calculations into a game whose servers can barely keep up as it is.
Give them a title, boom done.
The immediate go to is muh monster sets, muh more gold, gimme gimme gimme. There's nothing wrong with established sets and how normal and vet functions but trying put words in my mouth isn't going to help an additional difficulty especially as it will throw those system you'd be for completely out of whack.1 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »
I completed Skyrim 10 times with mods without mods, both on bad and good PC and on PS4, on normal difficulty, on legendary etc. And I was never bored, even on normal. Same for every high-rated RPG I played. In ESO I was bored in first few hours. I was literally ready to delete the game and only fact that I found some public dungeons and FG1, which were quite challenging for solo play for low level character (and had amazing rewards in comparison to overland) returned my interest to the game. I love TES universe, and I'm interested in exploring it's zones for pieces of lore... but now I really can't do that more then for 1 hour per week because those 3-monster groups of idiot with low slash, mage with ice wall and nightblade jumping on you with stun, copy pasted over 15 zones at every 5 meters, that is unbearably tiresome and in the same time pointlessly easy... ugh, simply awful.
You don't need to invent anything new. There are dozens if not hundreds of RPGs created and they have the same formula - higher difficulty - higher reward which brings progression and which made genre so popular. In ESO this works exclusively in group content. In overland there is no progression, no rewards, no challenge.
Yup, exactly my point. The single player RPG experience like Skyrim is completely different from the MMO experience. Single player RPGs are generally much more difficult at first then as you play more the difficulty plateaus, even under the highest settings, and eventually isn't that hard. MMOs have the opposite affect where your have increasing difficulty and you are meant to progress into harder content. In Skyrim the only reason the Overland is "difficult" is because when you go into places like caves, forts, etc. there isn't any increase in difficulty, everything is pretty much the same. A boss in Skyrim is only going to have increased HP, not any real increase in tactics needed after awhile in comparison to difficulties implemented in MMOs.
You're comparing to completely different experiences and expecting the same thing2 -
Mindcr0w✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Give them a title, boom done.
I would personally be ok with this for the majority of "extra difficulty" challenges.The immediate go to is muh monster sets, muh more gold, gimme gimme gimme.
Ok and what is the problem with that? Again, most MMO'S are built around getting gear or currency as the standard reward for completing most tasks.There's nothing wrong with established sets and how normal and vet functions
So why is the current system of increased rewards going from vet to normal ok, but adding another tier with further increased rewards bad?
Normal to vet rewards increase = good
Vet to hypothetical "Master" setting rewards increase = bad?
Seems pretty artbitrary.but trying put words in my mouth isn't going to help an additional difficulty especially as it will throw those system you'd be for completely out of whack.
Didn't put any words in your mouth. Just followed the logic of your argument.
Edited by Mindcr0w on April 28, 2020 9:34PM0 -
Luke_Flamesword✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't get it - we talk about completely optional feature with balanced and fair rewards - stil someone can't stand it, because they they personally don't want to used it.
We all know it that ESO is not a singleplayer game. I personally don't want Skyrim experience - I just want more tiers of challenge in wieder content of game to develop my skills, not yawn when I literally smash tons of mobs with closed eyes.
It's basic psychology of every game to be fun - balanced challenge (not too easy, not too difficult) and rewards for your achievements. I have this in PVP or Dungeons, but overland zones... not at all...PC | EU | DC |Stam Dk Breton2 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
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I would personally be ok with this for the majority of "extra difficulty" challenges.
Ok and what is the problem with that? Again, most MMO'S are built around getting gear or currency as the standard reward for completing most tasks.
So why is the current system of increased rewards going from vet to normal ok, but adding another tier with further increased rewards bad?
Normal to vet rewards increase = good
Vet to hypothetical "Master" setting rewards increase = bad?
Seems pretty artbitrary.
Didn't put any words in your mouth. Just followed the logic of your argument.
Ok and what is the problem with that? Again, most MMO'S are built around getting gear or currency as the standard reward for completing most tasks.
Because none of these posts are about difficulty, they all start out the same way. "The game needs a difficulty higher than vet, now let me tell you about all the ways I can be rewarded for it." They all seem to fail to mention in what ways they would actually make the content harder and why we needed a step up from veteran content. Just adding more HP to HM mechanics isn't making content more difficult, it's making it longer.
There's nothing wrong with established sets and how normal and vet functions [/quote]
So why is the current system of increased rewards going from vet to normal ok, but adding another tier with further increased rewards bad?
Normal to vet rewards increase = good
Vet to hypothetical "Master" setting rewards increase = bad?
Seems pretty artbitrary.
The current system is already established so it's not arbitrary logic. You have normal and you have the vet setting as preestablished mechanics of the game in addition to the HM.
Why do we need an increased tier with further rewards? Why do we need to add that additional balancing difficulty and what would the increased rewards be?0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Luke_Flamesword wrote: »I don't get it - we talk about completely optional feature with balanced and fair rewards - stil someone can't stand it, because they they personally don't want to used it.
We all know it that ESO is not a singleplayer game. I personally don't want Skyrim experience - I just want more tiers of challenge in wieder content of game to develop my skills, not yawn when I literally smash tons of mobs with closed eyes.
It's basic psychology of every game to be fun - balanced challenge (not too easy, not too difficult) and rewards for your achievements. I have this in PVP or Dungeons, but overland zones... not at all...
The game is a balanced challenge, you're not asking for that. You're asking for the corridors and the overland content to be as hard as pvp/dungeon content which is unrealistic.0 -
Really the only way to implement this would be via a configurable debuff in overland that decreases your mitigation, healing received, damage done, regen, etc.
Or just don't enable CP and wear mismatched white gear.
I mentioned this earlier in another thread a few weeks ago.
How about a Potion purchased, Bound to account. 1hr duration. None removable. Stack-able . 25% debuff per potion drank
This would allow new or inexperienced players to not be effectedEdited by Bpryr_125 on April 28, 2020 10:37PM0 -
Dagoth_Rac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Luke_Flamesword wrote: »I don't get it - we talk about completely optional feature with balanced and fair rewards - stil someone can't stand it, because they they personally don't want to used it.
We all know it that ESO is not a singleplayer game. I personally don't want Skyrim experience - I just want more tiers of challenge in wieder content of game to develop my skills, not yawn when I literally smash tons of mobs with closed eyes.
It's basic psychology of every game to be fun - balanced challenge (not too easy, not too difficult) and rewards for your achievements. I have this in PVP or Dungeons, but overland zones... not at all...
We can't have this in overland because everybody is in it together in overland and delves and public dungeons and stuff. Normal and Veteran difficulties are separated in instanced content like dungeons and Trials. What is being described here is something akin to a 12-man Trial where 8 players are playing it on Normal and 4 are playing it on Veteran. How can that possibly work? If you want to separate into normal and veteran overland instances, it might make sense, but they used to have normal and veteran versions of zones like Auridon and Rivenspire and so on (complete with better gear and gold and XP). They got rid of them because they were unpopular. And the entire purpose of Tamriel One was to get rid of the separation between overland players.
I just see no way to have players at different difficulty levels playing alongside each other. If a player at low difficulty comes up and one-shots a world boss while a high difficulty player is fighting it, what happens? Does the high difficulty player get their elite loot? Yes? Why? They had barely made a dent in boss and other player did all the damage. No? That is going to lead to a lot of drama and conflict as high difficulty players try to keep low difficulty players from interfering in their combat.
It is also just not going to really lead to more difficulty if you do not segregate players by their chosen difficulty. How will 3 or 4 high difficulty players be able to really get a challenge if a bunch of low difficulty players can come along at any moment and faceroll what they are fighting?
There are so many complicating factors to having essentially normal and veteran content mixed together in one instance. This is not a request for a difficulty slider. It is a request to split the player base, which is exactly what Tamriel One got rid of and has been a huge point of success for the game. Having a "Voice of Reason" fighting a dragon next to a "Former Empress" fighting next to a CP810 in light armor spamming bow basic attacks is a feature, not a bug! Those overland zones are supposed to be the places where all of Tamriel is mixed together.0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Yup, exactly my point. The single player RPG experience like Skyrim is completely different from the MMO experience. Single player RPGs are generally much more difficult at first then as you play more the difficulty plateaus, even under the highest settings, and eventually isn't that hard. MMOs have the opposite affect where your have increasing difficulty and you are meant to progress into harder content. In Skyrim the only reason the Overland is "difficult" is because when you go into places like caves, forts, etc. there isn't any increase in difficulty, everything is pretty much the same. A boss in Skyrim is only going to have increased HP, not any real increase in tactics needed after awhile in comparison to difficulties implemented in MMOs.
You're comparing to completely different experiences and expecting the same thing
Oh come on. Skyrim starts to spawn much harder enemies as you level up. There is huge difference between draugr and draugr lord. Even in unmodded game Draugr lord will shout at you, charge and then one-two shot with his ebony axe - if you won't dodge, block, LOS. Arch-mages will just explode you if you'll allow them direct line of sight for several seconds.
And as you said that's not like those mobs received new moves with increased difficulty. Simply increasing their HP in 3 times and damage in 4 times forces you to sweat, to plan each your spent skillpoint, every gold piece you'll spend on learning and to use specific shouts and all possible toons to deal with them. So while mobs tactics doesn't change, demand to your tactics increases greatly.0 -
Mindcr0w✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »Because none of these posts are about difficulty, they all start out the same way. "The game needs a difficulty higher than vet, now let me tell you about all the ways I can be rewarded for it."
Again, what is the actual problem with that? Most people play MMO's for some combination of character progression and challenge.
Many people have reached a point where much of the game has gotten stagnant and fails to provide one or both of those things. And they also feel that another tier of difficulty would help with one or both of those things.
Challenge and reward is the foundation of the game.They all seem to fail to mention in what ways they would actually make the content harder
I don't speak for anyone else, but when I say "additional challenge" I generally mean (and assume others mean) things hit harder in general, and certain things (mainly bosses) have additional mechanics to be learned and overcome. I don't particularly feel the need to come up with what mechanics should be added to which fights if that is what you want. That would be up to the devs.why we needed a step up from veteran content.
Again because much vet content has gotten to the point that it is not engaging for a good chunk of the playerbase from either a challenge or a reward standpoint.The current system is already established so it's not arbitrary logic.
It is in fact completely arbitrary to say that additions to the current system are a bad idea simply because the current system is what currently exists.
Please explain why a two tier challenge & reward system is good, but a three or more tier system is automatically bad.Why do we need an increased tier with further rewards?
Already answered.and what would the increased rewards be?
It could be lots of things. I'd personally like to see most "bragging rights" type rewards (skins, titles, etc) as I'm not convinced the game needs more power creep. There's plenty of other things that could be used as well, all of which you've dismissed out of hand elsewhere.Edited by Mindcr0w on April 28, 2020 11:00PM2 -
Luke_Flamesword✭✭✭✭✭
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Did you even read whole topic?We can't have this in overland because everybody is in it together in overland and delves and public dungeons and stuff.
We talking about difficulty in form of player only debuff with eventually reward in better loot. Loot is not shared with other players - every player have his own loot even if he killed mob or boss with someone else.
There will be no seperating or segregating players!
Why is this unrealistic and why you even care if this feature will be completely optional? You don't like it - you don't use it. Where is problem?You're asking for the corridors and the overland content to be as hard as pvp/dungeon content which is unrealistic.PC | EU | DC |Stam Dk Breton0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Luke_Flamesword wrote: »Did you even read whole topic?
We talking about difficulty in form of player only debuff with eventually reward in better loot. Loot is not shared with other players - every player have his own loot even if he killed mob or boss with someone else.
There will be no seperating or segregating players!
Why is this unrealistic and why you even care if this feature will be completely optional? You don't like it - you don't use it. Where is problem?
It's completely unrealistic and not well thought out. I care because, again, this isn't the single player experience you want it to be. Everyone has to play on the same server and deal with the same adds. A debut isn't going to solve this it's just going to cause a mountain of problems.0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
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Again, what is the actual problem with that? Most people play MMO's for some combination of character progression and challenge.
Many people have reached a point where much of the game has gotten stagnant and fails to provide one or both of those things. And they also feel that another tier of difficulty would help with one or both of those things.
Challenge and reward is the foundation of the game.
I don't speak for anyone else, but when I say "additional challenge" I generally mean (and assume others mean) things hit harder in general, and certain things (mainly bosses) have additional mechanics to be learned and overcome. I don't particularly feel the need to come up with what mechanics should be added to which fights if that is what you want. That would be up to the devs.
Again because much vet content has gotten to the point that it is not engaging for a good chunk of the playerbase from either a challenge or a reward standpoint.
It is in fact completely arbitrary to say that additions to the current system are a bad idea simply because the current system is what currently exists.
Please explain why a two tier challenge & reward system is good, but a three or more tier system is automatically bad.
Already answered.
It could be lots of things. I'd personally like to see most "bragging rights" type rewards (skins, titles, etc) as I'm not convinced the game needs more power creep. There's plenty of other things that could be used as well, all of which you've dismissed out of hand elsewhere.
1) Vets are there for challenge and you're saying that they've become stagnant. Your answer is to add a difficulty which, if we use your logic, is just going to become easy to people over time and not present the same challenges but you're also asking for items that would increase the power creep that made those vet dungeons easier in the first place. See the problem?
2) How would they implement this? Is it going to be an expansion? Adding new mechanics to dungeons is going to cost $$$ which ZOS will then bleed from us. Do you think the player base is going to pay for content 99% of them will never do?
3) A two tier system leaves your normal and vet content which is more than enough for more than the majority of the player base. It also presents less balancing issues as a 3rd "perfected set" adds in an extra layer of issues to deal with. Are all the sets just given extra stats? An extra ability with a skill? How does this pertain to older bosses? Do you update them completely with new tactics because it's 2020 and you can or do you leave it a slightly harder fight for 75% of the dungeons?
Just because you add more wings to a plane doesn't make it fly better so adding an extra difficulty setting is also adding more potential for bugs. Given the track record of some of the pve dungeons like Frostvault, are you OK with paying for an increased difficulty that doesn't get fixed and just spreads the devs thinner to fix the little they already do sometimes?0 -
eKsDee✭✭✭✭✭I don't quest because it legitimately puts me to sleep, it's so damn easy. Without even trying, you can easily roll over trash mobs, packs of trash mobs, quest bosses, and even world bosses (I solo'd a damn world boss on a level 43 magblade in half broken blue/green gear). I'd hugely welcome this change.Rave the Histborn wrote: »
It's completely unrealistic and not well thought out. I care because, again, this isn't the single player experience you want it to be. Everyone has to play on the same server and deal with the same adds. A debut isn't going to solve this it's just going to cause a mountain of problems.
What problems would a debuff cause?
A debuff already exists in the form of Battle Spirit. All that needs to be done is to copy Battle Spirit, give it a new ID and name, have it apply to players in overland zones, and have it adjust damage done, damage received, and healing received.
A debuff allows an individual player to tweak their experience (damage done is basically equivalent to increasing a mob's health, damage received is equivalent to increasing a mob's damage, healing received ensures you can't just heal your way through content and be fine, even dealing half damage and taking double damage), without affecting other players (beyond how much damage you deal to mobs, that's it).
The only issue with a debuff is how much time and effort Zenimax needs to put into it (really not that much, since the foundation is already in the game, but whatever), and whether Zenimax screws it up (which is on Zenimax, not the debuff). There's no reason to say no to a debuff that is completely optional and only affects the user, beyond "overland shouldn't be for max level players!"1 -
Mindcr0w✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »Vets are there for challenge and you're saying that they've become stagnant. Your answer is to add a difficulty which, if we use your logic, is just going to become easy to people over time and not present the same challenges
Every new challenge will eventually become less difficult to those that work at it. Are you saying this means we should never attempt to add new challenges?
Besides if they brought the base game dungeons up to vet dlc dungeon levels that would add a lot of longevity to them. If vet dlc dungeons got a super HM that would last even longer. You don't think that would keep people occupied for a good long while? No content is relevant forever, that doesn't mean you stop adding content.you're also asking for items that would increase the power creep that made those vet dungeons easier in the first place. See the problem?
🙄It could be lots of things. I'd personally like to see most "bragging rights" type rewards (skins, titles, etc) as I'm not convinced the game needs more power creep. There's plenty of other things that could be used as well, all of which you've dismissed out of hand elsewhere.Rave the Histborn wrote: »How would they implement this? Is it going to be an expansion? Adding new mechanics to dungeons is going to cost $$$ which ZOS will then bleed from us
I don't claim to know all the details of how best to implement such a thing. I do know though that a steady stream of new content is necessary to keep a healthy playerbase, and that making adjustments to existing content is cheaper and easier than brand new content.Do you think the player base is going to pay for content 99% of them will never do?
Well less than 1% of players have completed the various arenas on vet and yet ZOS found a way to fit those in and make them work.A two tier system leaves your normal and vet content which is more than enough for more than the majority of the player base.
And yet they keep finding it viable to add content that only a fraction of the playerbase will complete.It also presents less balancing issues as a 3rd "perfected set" adds in an extra layer of issues to deal with. Are all the sets just given extra stats?
Again, I am not advocating specifically for perfected versions of old sets or more powerful gear in general. That said given that perfected versions of newer sets have worked out mostly fine I wouldn't be particulary worried about it either.Just because you add more wings to a plane doesn't make it fly better so adding an extra difficulty setting is also adding more potential for bugs. Given the track record of some of the pve dungeons like Frostvault, are you OK with paying for an increased difficulty that doesn't get fixed and just spreads the devs thinner to fix the little they already do sometimes?
I mean by this logic they should never add anything to the game because anything added might add more bugs and thin resources.Edited by Mindcr0w on April 29, 2020 3:22AM0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't quest because it legitimately puts me to sleep, it's so damn easy. Without even trying, you can easily roll over trash mobs, packs of trash mobs, quest bosses, and even world bosses (I solo'd a damn world boss on a level 43 magblade in half broken blue/green gear). I'd hugely welcome this change.
What problems would a debuff cause?
A debuff already exists in the form of Battle Spirit. All that needs to be done is to copy Battle Spirit, give it a new ID and name, have it apply to players in overland zones, and have it adjust damage done, damage received, and healing received.
A debuff allows an individual player to tweak their experience (damage done is basically equivalent to increasing a mob's health, damage received is equivalent to increasing a mob's damage, healing received ensures you can't just heal your way through content and be fine, even dealing half damage and taking double damage), without affecting other players (beyond how much damage you deal to mobs, that's it).
The only issue with a debuff is how much time and effort Zenimax needs to put into it (really not that much, since the foundation is already in the game, but whatever), and whether Zenimax screws it up (which is on Zenimax, not the debuff). There's no reason to say no to a debuff that is completely optional and only affects the user, beyond "overland shouldn't be for max level players!"
Ok, so I attack a monster, it's a normal monster and then you have the debuff, come over kill the monster and you get the new higher tier loot. See the problem? We're in an 11 man vet trial and 1 man doesn't use the debuff and he starts it. The other guys all have the debuff and get the new loot. See the problem? It's too easy to game and function negatively.0 -
Deter1UK✭✭✭✭✭So the first time I decided to wander around Craglorn I thought one of those rift things was a psijic loot point.
The result was;
A. A shock to the system and..
B. Seemed hard enough to me so..
Why not duplicate some of those around Tamriel - you can choose to ignore them after all.0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »
This doesn't make sense. Why you should be against balanced gold spending for those who want to play overland as classic RPG game and not like visual novel? And XP bonus can be useful to level new toons faster but without boring repetition of spellscar etc.
What surprises me about this threads is that selfish attitude... I may understand that other players don't want increased item drops or doubled resource nodes etc because it will impact trading. But if you'll just have enough gold to compensate for repair/pots what's bad in that?
Because the idea is to make the game more interesting/fun through being more difficult. Being at a higher skill level you should be able to kill the evil doer in about the same time a lesser skilled player kills the same evil doer on a lower setting. So your damage received should be about the same because of your greater skills.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."0 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It feels like something difficult to implement and balance, because with many levels of difficulty, one has to check each and every one for corner cases to ensure that it's technically possible to play content while slider's at given setting - if player decides to up the game for himself, cranks slider up and then struggles to beat some world or delve boss on higher difficulty, he better be sure that solution even exists on that level of difficulty and he's not wasting his time. And it's too global of a change to introduce 'just for fun and without warranty', if it's part of core game, it should be verified and tested.
I'd say that if we're going for higher difficulty, there's plenty of self-imposed challenges one can pick to spice things up. Which brings me back to the request for something that is long overdue.
Bring broom and bucket back!0 -
eKsDee✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Ok, so I attack a monster, it's a normal monster and then you have the debuff, come over kill the monster and you get the new higher tier loot. See the problem? We're in an 11 man vet trial and 1 man doesn't use the debuff and he starts it. The other guys all have the debuff and get the new loot. See the problem? It's too easy to game and function negatively.
Except you missed the part where I said it would only apply to overland, since overland is the only outlier. Trials, or any group content, don't have anything to do with it.0 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Oh come on. Skyrim starts to spawn much harder enemies as you level up. There is huge difference between draugr and draugr lord. Even in unmodded game Draugr lord will shout at you, charge and then one-two shot with his ebony axe - if you won't dodge, block, LOS. Arch-mages will just explode you if you'll allow them direct line of sight for several seconds.
And as you said that's not like those mobs received new moves with increased difficulty. Simply increasing their HP in 3 times and damage in 4 times forces you to sweat, to plan each your spent skillpoint, every gold piece you'll spend on learning and to use specific shouts and all possible toons to deal with them. So while mobs tactics doesn't change, demand to your tactics increases greatly.
So you're currently running vet content w/out being optimized for vet content? How else are you going to change up your build?
At any rate, here's what happened the last time I saw this thread in another MMO. For years, the players that wanted insisted that they needed more challenging content. At the time, I objected, not because it would adversely affect me, in that game, all quests and explorer type zones are instanced for the player. Quests all had 4 difficulties, Casual, Normal, Hard and Elite. The explorers were level gated, but didn't have difficulty settings. I objected because I knew that as soon as they got it, it was going to be "but it's too hard, you need to tone it down". Fast forward about 2 years and they got it, brand new Reaper difficulty, with 10 tiers to play with.
Then it was all about the "but if there's no rewards, it's not worth it". What happened to "we need to be challenged"? At any rate, once it went live, it took about 2 weeks before the nerf threads started rolling out. It was so hilarious to me that I wound up with a permanent ban, I guess they were too fragile to handle being laughed at for "but we need a challenge, but not this much"? All the points that are touted as the best way to go, you know, bullet sponges with extra damage? That was the route they went, and guess what it was called: "Stupid hard". So no thanks, I'll pass. I'd rather they spent their development budget developing new stuff for everyone, as opposed to stuff that people scream that they need, and then scream when they get it.0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭robertthebard wrote: »
So you're currently running vet content w/out being optimized for vet content? How else are you going to change up your build?
At any rate, here's what happened the last time I saw this thread in another MMO. For years, the players that wanted insisted that they needed more challenging content. At the time, I objected, not because it would adversely affect me, in that game, all quests and explorer type zones are instanced for the player. Quests all had 4 difficulties, Casual, Normal, Hard and Elite. The explorers were level gated, but didn't have difficulty settings. I objected because I knew that as soon as they got it, it was going to be "but it's too hard, you need to tone it down". Fast forward about 2 years and they got it, brand new Reaper difficulty, with 10 tiers to play with.
Then it was all about the "but if there's no rewards, it's not worth it". What happened to "we need to be challenged"? At any rate, once it went live, it took about 2 weeks before the nerf threads started rolling out. It was so hilarious to me that I wound up with a permanent ban, I guess they were too fragile to handle being laughed at for "but we need a challenge, but not this much"? All the points that are touted as the best way to go, you know, bullet sponges with extra damage? That was the route they went, and guess what it was called: "Stupid hard". So no thanks, I'll pass. I'd rather they spent their development budget developing new stuff for everyone, as opposed to stuff that people scream that they need, and then scream when they get it.
I have nothing against ESO group content, it's pretty good. But after completing it many times, and given that PVE meta is pretty strict there is not much to do in there now, especially with atrocious lag and skill delays. Overland on the other hand is huge part of the game and most lore filled part too. ESO is marketed as action-RPG, but even on 810 CP with undistributed CP (this is weakest setup you can get, low level newbies have MUCH better stats then 810 CP without CP) and with green-blue gear which dropped from overland it is not challenging at all. The only way to make it challenging, is to play without armor at all and restrict yourself from using healing abilities. That way you'll have "action game", but you still wouldn't have RPG.
Current overland is visual novel plagued with annoying but harmless mobs, placed in each 5 meters and respawning each several minutes. Often, you can't even stand and enjoy the view because somebody will respawn behind and snare, stun, yell whatever. They copied this part from WoW, but they forget that in WoW those mobs are:
1) actually dangerous to character with dropped gear (even in non-classic, try to aggro several mobs in once on new character... you will be torn in pieces)
2) they provide valuable drops and XP if you don't overlevel them. In ESO you always over-level surrounding mobs, even at level1.
So to put it short, ESO is action-RPG but it's largest part overland - is not action, not RPG, it's just walking around spamming 2-3 buttons and listening to dialogs/making screenshots whatever. You can play without armor, CP and healing to return "action" part, but RPG part is lost forever.2 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Asked for so many times. So many great suggestions how to make it work.
ZOS just doesn't care and I don't understand why. It's the easiest thing to add as far as new systems go, and all the technology (e.g. player scaling) is already in the game. It would increase longevity of the game like nothing else, for minimal investment on their part.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.1 -
Luke_Flamesword✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
We don't talk about game changing rewards. I don't want perfected sets for overland content. When you get 13 gold, 300 XP and green sword for normal mob, with higher difficulty you get for example 26 gold, 600 XP and small chance for blue, not green sword. It's still trash but compensate more time to do a kill. Is this worth it of crying?Ok, so I attack a monster, it's a normal monster and then you have the debuff, come over kill the monster and you get the new higher tier loot. See the problem? We're in an 11 man vet trial and 1 man doesn't use the debuff and he starts it. The other guys all have the debuff and get the new loot. See the problem? It's too easy to game and function negatively. ZOS can add even couple minutes of cooldown to prevent from switching difficulty too often. PC | EU | DC |Stam Dk Breton0 -
ayu_fever✭✭✭✭✭nope.
eso is a casual paradise.
the players who want to make things harder can already do so by removing their CP and using white quality gear.
there is no reason to waste resources to change the game for literally only 6 or 7 “l33ts” who want to compare e-peens.PS4 NA
all characters are members of the ebonheart pact master race
BLOOD FOR THE PACT
main character:
Rebekah Straight-Fire, breton templar healer: THE FATEBRINGER (dungeons, trials, pvp)
—MERIDIA’S LUSTRANT— 1100+CP; alliance rank 21 (major grade 1); Rebekah is the most devoted and loyal follower of the lady of infinite energies and the highest ascendant of meridia’s purified legion and was forged from meridia’s brilliant radiance of purity.
other meta toons-
Alexa Straight-Fire, breton warden healer: THE ALCHEMIST (dungeons, trials)
Sasha Straight-Fire, nord dragonknight tank: THE UNBREAKABLE (dungeons, trials)
Freyja Straight-Fire, nord warden tank: THE ICEBERG (dungeons, trials)
Ororo Straight-Fire, dark elf magsorc: THE SHOCKWAVE (dungeons, trials)
Michonne Straight-Fire, redguard stamDK: THE EVISCERATOR (dungeons, trials)
just for fun toons-
Rhea Straight-Fire, wood elf warden stam healer: THE RANGER
Shiva Straight-Fire, high elf warden ice mage: THE CRYOMANCER
Morgana Straight-Fire, dark elf necromancer solo play: THE DEATHSINGER
Lucille Straight-Fire, dark elf nightblade solo play: THE VOIDWALKER
Diana Straight-Fire, nord templar tank: THE CLERIC
Falsetto Straight-Fire, orc stamsorc werewolf: THE THUNDERHOWL0 -
EvilAutoTech✭✭✭✭✭
✭Would I use veteran instances of overland, were they available?
Yes.
Do I think that it would be a good investment of resources at this point in time?
No.
I think this would go the way of Craglorn or the Silver and Gold instances of faction zones. Eventually I would be there by myself farming mats, mobs and XP without seeing another player for hours.
An optional debuff is also probably not something that would be a good use of dev resources, either. Why should Zeni spend time creating this when you can already debuff yourself? You don't have to use BIS gear for overland.
A better option may be to create a dressing room like functionality so swapping difficulty doesn't have to be difficult.
But the community doesn't decide whether ZOS will do it or not. Sometimes that's a good thing.0 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭While as has been said, a "difficulty slider" would be night impossible in am MMO, a "handicap" slider that affects only their own characters would be easy to do.
Just one little thingie that allows players to voluntarily fight at a percentage of their "true" strength in terms of damage output and damage resistance... possibly for an increase in drop chances for something good? Drop your offensive powah to 50%, get double the chances for a good drop, etc.
Personally I also would adore it if they married this feature to costumes, and thos debuffed those wearing wedding dresses on the battlefield, but I guess that's me...1 -
Luke_Flamesword✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭An optional debuff is also probably not something that would be a good use of dev resources, either. Why should Zeni spend time creating this when you can already debuff yourself? You don't have to use BIS gear for overland.
It's subtle difference but important one - to have fun and satisfaction, you want to beat a game, not made up limitations given by yourself. Game should throw me a challenge and my job as player is using every resources (skills, gear, experience, game systems, etc.) to win this. This is core foundation of every game - player vs game.
It's also nothing hard to implement - one person can write code for this very quick in simpliest and most lazy version - for example - simple chapel in main cities which activate/deactivate debuff. There is quest in Grahtwood where after completion you have this: "Choosing a spirit animal is permanent for your character and will provide you with the ability to get a one-hour buff in Grahtwood any time you pray at a Brackenleaf shrine."
They can literally copy-paste this mechanic, create new shrine, put it in main cities and change effects of activating it - implementing it is piece of cake. Only problem will be balancing values of debuff but for this you have players feedback. It's not anything time consuming, they can used scripts and mechanics already implemented in game.
We can do it even lore-wise. What you think about Clavicus Vile shrine - he is prince of bargain so he can offer deal for player - some burden (in form of debuff effects) for some kind of rewards (again, nothing very special and game changing). It will be even better if you can activate/deactivate only in one or couple special places - there will be not abusing of mechanic by often switching on/offPC | EU | DC |Stam Dk Breton0 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »
I have nothing against ESO group content, it's pretty good. But after completing it many times, and given that PVE meta is pretty strict there is not much to do in there now, especially with atrocious lag and skill delays. Overland on the other hand is huge part of the game and most lore filled part too. ESO is marketed as action-RPG, but even on 810 CP with undistributed CP (this is weakest setup you can get, low level newbies have MUCH better stats then 810 CP without CP) and with green-blue gear which dropped from overland it is not challenging at all. The only way to make it challenging, is to play without armor at all and restrict yourself from using healing abilities. That way you'll have "action game", but you still wouldn't have RPG.
Current overland is visual novel plagued with annoying but harmless mobs, placed in each 5 meters and respawning each several minutes. Often, you can't even stand and enjoy the view because somebody will respawn behind and snare, stun, yell whatever. They copied this part from WoW, but they forget that in WoW those mobs are:
1) actually dangerous to character with dropped gear (even in non-classic, try to aggro several mobs in once on new character... you will be torn in pieces)
2) they provide valuable drops and XP if you don't overlevel them. In ESO you always over-level surrounding mobs, even at level1.
So to put it short, ESO is action-RPG but it's largest part overland - is not action, not RPG, it's just walking around spamming 2-3 buttons and listening to dialogs/making screenshots whatever. You can play without armor, CP and healing to return "action" part, but RPG part is lost forever.
Welcome to nearly every MMO ever? Especially one that's story driven. This isn't Dark Souls, or Monster Hunter, the OW is what it's always been, since I've been here, which is about 3 years, even though I haven't played all of that. There's a similar thread in the GW 2 forum as I type this. The challenging part of the game is fine, that's why we have dungeons/trials/vet stuff and PvP. Now if all that's boring to you, that doesn't mean they should break the rest of the game to accommodate you.
BTW, you have a rather odd definition of what makes a game an RPG. It doesn't mean "I'm sweating bullets every time I walk out of a town" or "oh snap, I got killed by a trash mob". No where in the definitions of Role Playing Game is that even remotely implied. This is an arbitrary assignment by you to try to validate "but I want to play dark souls in ESO". Then there's the "copied from WoW" thing... WoW didn't create anything. They copied things from cRPGs and even table top RPGs. I had one poster in another game's forum try to convince me that WoW invented Greek Mythology, since they were mad that that game had used some creatures from Greek Mythology. "They copied it from WoW" was his argument too. Sorry, but these concepts predate WoW by a couple of decades. People were playing Dungeons & Dragons for decades before WoW rolled out.
I have played, and continue to play a lot of games where content is level gated and it's fine. It would be fine here too, as far as I'm concerned, except for one thing, you can join the Dark Brotherhood almost right out of the gate. The radiant quests from the Book of the Dead send you all over Tamriel. The same is true for the radiant quests in the Thieves Guild. Imagine being unable to advance those because you can't get into the zones to do so. The Fighter and Mage guild lines also have you all over the place, although they do tend to stick to the faction at hand. Then, I guess, there's the "where does your character start if you own expansions" thing too. For better or worse, it's there.
Trying to code this kind of thing for the OW would be a nightmare, and imagine it glitching out, and some poor level 10 character winds up fighting a level 50 mob due to a glitch in the system, or simply because a level 50 character got cocky, and rolled by something, and it got stuck at 50. So no thanks, the "but it's not an RPG if it's not challenging" argument doesn't carry a lot of weight, and the potential for more game breaking bugs is very real, better to leave well enough alone.0
