A suggestion for class spammables.

JinMori

So there is a problem especially for stam dps.

The problem is that weapon spammables are usually better than class spammables, and it comes down to a few things that are not necessarily damage.

Those things are, axe bleed, procs.

Flurry procs more axe bleeds and procs monster sets more, especially selene. And also enchant procs.

So i have a "solution" make the proc tied to how much damage the skill does, the more damage it does the higher the proc chance, so instead of the proc being tied to how many hits the ability does in a set amount of time, which in that case skills like flurry and jabs will always win, make it so the chance is tied to how much damage you are doing with that skill, this way you could properly balance, since it's not tied to the amount of hits anymore, but rather the amount of damage the skill does.

This is a quick thought, hardly final, could probably be improved quite a bit, but in essence, procs like axe bleed which is especially important are tied to damage rather than how many hits you are doing. Enchants are not that big of a problem instead since the proc has a cd and are guaranteed to proc, and usually if you light attack you will proc it on cd.

There are also other ways to make class spammables more appealing, but this is just a start. For example, i think each class should provide a bonus like engulfing flames but for other types of damage, fitting the general theme of the class, but that's not a thing that should necessarily being tied to a spammable, actually it would probably be better if it wasn't.

Skjaldbjorn

JinMori wrote: »

So there is a problem especially for stam dps.

The problem is that weapon spammables are usually better than class spammables, and it comes down to a few things that are not necessarily damage.

Those things are, axe bleed, procs.

Flurry procs more axe bleeds and procs monster sets more, especially selene. And also enchant procs.

So i have a "solution" make the proc tied to how much damage the skill does, the more damage it does the higher the proc chance, so instead of the proc being tied to how many hits the ability does in a set amount of time, which in that case skills like flurry and jabs will always win, make it so the chance is tied to how much damage you are doing with that skill, this way you could properly balance, since it's not tied to the amount of hits anymore, but rather the amount of damage the skill does.

This is a quick thought, hardly final, could probably be improved quite a bit, but in essence, procs like axe bleed which is especially important are tied to damage rather than how many hits you are doing. Enchants are not that big of a problem instead since the proc has a cd and are guaranteed to proc, and usually if you light attack you will proc it on cd.

There are also other ways to make class spammables more appealing, but this is just a start. For example, i think each class should provide a bonus like engulfing flames but for other types of damage, fitting the general theme of the class, but that's not a thing that should necessarily being tied to a spammable, actually it would probably be better if it wasn't.

Linking the proc chance to damage doesn't resolve the issue that Stamden, Stam DK and Stamcro all have ranged spammables which can't proc Selene's.

kalunte

the idea is nice but it would involve way too much calculation.

JinMori

kalunte wrote: »

the idea is nice but it would involve way too much calculation.

Yea, that's what i am worried about. But who knows, maybe it does not involve more calculations.

And about the ranged thing, well either they change that, or gotta use another set, there are a couple of sets that are about equal to selene or even better that do not require a melee ability to proc.

But honestly, the selene set proc is hardly the biggest contributor to flurry being a better spammable, it's the axe bleed.

Or they could just change how the bleed procs, like: axe procs bleed that does x amount of damage, each axe reduces the cd, so let's say that the cd is on 14 seconds with 1 axe, with 2, it's 7 and the proc is guaranteed as long as you hit the target, so there is no chance to proc, it's just you will proc it, and having 2 axes will reduce the cd. Or something like that.

MashmalloMan

JinMori wrote: »

Those things are, axe bleed, procs.

I'm pretty sure I saw in a skinny cheeks parse video within the past 1-2 updates where he said Templar Jabs procced axe bleeds because it was changed to be done off any melee damage, to which it does multiple hits of, giving templar high Selene's and Bleed uptimes.

If this is true, then the only issue when it comes to bleed uptime is in the fact that half the stamina morphs for spammables aren't melee, but ranged. This is just another reason why they suck, projectiles are unreliable and add an extra delay within melee range. ZOS has for some reason implemented 4 spammables in the past 3 years, all of which are ranged, even though they're used for stamina characters.

Warden Cliff Racer, Necro Skulls, DK Stone Giant, and Psijic Order Crushing Weapon.

They all suck.

JinMori

MashmalloMan wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Those things are, axe bleed, procs.

I'm pretty sure I saw in a skinny cheeks parse video within the past 1-2 updates where he said Templar Jabs procced axe bleeds because it was changed to be done off any melee damage, to which it does multiple hits of, giving templar high Selene's and Bleed uptimes.

If this is true, then the only issue when it comes to bleed uptime is in the fact that half the stamina morphs for spammables aren't melee, but ranged. This is just another reason why they suck, projectiles are unreliable and add an extra delay within melee range. ZOS has for some reason implemented 4 spammables in the past 3 years, all of which are ranged, even though they're used for stamina characters.

Warden Cliff Racer, Necro Skulls, DK Stone Giant, and Psijic Order Crushing Weapon.

They all suck.

The problem is not even the extra delay, but them being counted as ranged ability is a problem for a lot of sets and procs indeed.

Which is why i made the suggestion.

Most of the spammables you listed are more interesting that flurry and some even provide a useful debuff for the group, like stone giant, but they are still worse than flurry for dps.

And cliff racer is a really slow projectile.

Also, you are correct on the jabs statement.

Also, since we are at it, remove the cast time on stone giant, the first stomp on the ground still happens, mostly because it's really cool to see, and the orbs look really good, but the cast time needs to be removed, it's just unnecessary, and annoying.

Iskiab

Thing is it’s intentional and part of ESO’s design.

Only weapon abilities and light/heavy attacks can proc things like glyphs. I don’t know why they differentiated weapon vs class skill.

For class skills being weaker than weapon skills proc’s aside, yea looks intentional too. For the most part each class has one damage ability that’s decent and the rest are garbage. Maybe it just makes things easier to balance.

They standardized abilities (or said that was their intention) but then buffed dizzy and executioner a little more afterwards. No idea why.

JinMori

Iskiab wrote: »

Thing is it’s intentional and part of ESO’s design.

Only weapon abilities and light/heavy attacks can proc things like glyphs. I don’t know why they differentiated weapon vs class skill.

For class skills being weaker than weapon skills proc’s aside, yea looks intentional too. For the most part each class has one damage ability that’s decent and the rest are garbage. Maybe it just makes things easier to balance.

They standardized abilities (or said that was their intention) but then buffed dizzy and executioner a little more afterwards. No idea why.

Well, if it's intentional then it's pretty badly designed, and class spammables should do considerably more damage to close the gap if they wanna keep it like this.

I mean come on, who wants to use a weapon spammable when you have a class one? It just doesn't feel right.