Thoughts on Thrassian Stranglers

MLGProPlayer

I'm fine with with this being the new 1pc meta. It's better than having to re-farm vMA again after their brilliant idea with those weapons.

However, it's simply overtuned right now. Rather than adding more drawbacks to it, scale down its performance. 3000 spell damage from a 1pc set is insane. Necropotence, a 5pc set, only gives you ~600 effective spell damage. Siroria, which is much harder to stack, and is also a 5pc set, only gives you ~900 effective spell damage (plus minor slayer). This single piece of gear gives you more spell damage than 2 full 5pc sets (it gives you more SD than 4-5 full sets, if you could wear 4-5 sets)

Sluggy

Numbers don't translate to actions. Having a terrible bar rotation or skill execution, or simply standing in pools of bad stuff or running for your life from a scary AoE when you should be hitting your rhythm is all it takes to negate any numerical superiority. This is why many proc sets tend to perform well for a large number of players whereas raw damage tends to be less impressive unless execution is immaculate. So simply declaring it better because the numbers check out isn't going to cut it here. In my experience of soloing a little bit of contentwith the item I can say that I don't often get super impressive numbers and staying alive is something I have to work much harder at. Even worse, if I mess up and fail I often loose my source of stacks to regain my power, thus leaving me in a numerically worse situation than where I started with no means of making up for that lost ground in terms of power.

I haven't tested it with the new changes but I don't really care to at this point. I've lost interest in the item partially due to the changes and partially due to the means of obtaining it.

Runefang

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I'm fine with with this being the new 1pc meta. It's better than having to re-farm vMA again after their brilliant idea with those weapons.

However, it's simply overtuned right now. Rather than adding more drawbacks to it, scale down its performance. 3000 spell damage from a 1pc set is insane. Necropotence, a 5pc set, only gives you ~600 effective spell damage. Siroria, which is much harder to stack, and is also a 5pc set, only gives you ~900 effective spell damage (plus minor slayer). This single piece of gear gives you more spell damage than 2 full 5pc sets (it gives you more SD than 4-5 full sets, if you could wear 4-5 sets)

I'd like to see a maximum of 5 stacks, 3% increased damage taken per stack. That way its good for a 1 piece, raising the skill ceiling for those who can pull it off but its not this ridiculous 40% additional damage taken, 40% reduced healing, 40% reduced shield size nonsense that nobody wants. It's a meme item now.

In PvE at least rebuilding stacks isn't something you can do easily in a trial so its not like you can just drop stacks when you have too many.

Palefang

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I'm fine with with this being the new 1pc meta.

I'm not.
For a single, simple reason : there is no stamina counterpart.

Sluggy wrote: »

Numbers don't translate to actions. Having a terrible bar rotation or skill execution, or simply standing in pools of bad stuff or running for your life from a scary AoE when you should be hitting your rhythm is all it takes to negate any numerical superiority. This is why many proc sets tend to perform well for a large number of players whereas raw damage tends to be less impressive unless execution is immaculate. So simply declaring it better because the numbers check out isn't going to cut it here.

That's another reason why there is a problem with this set.
You are going to die on red telegraphed zones, or lack dps because of cluncky rotation.
But what about top players ? They will flawlessly gain a huge edge over lower skill players. You raise the ceiling and lower the floor... exactly the opposite of what that update wanted to do.

Sluggy wrote: »

In my experience of soloing a little bit of contentwith the item I can say that I don't often get super impressive numbers and staying alive is something I have to work much harder at. Even worse, if I mess up and fail I often loose my source of stacks to regain my power, thus leaving me in a numerically worse situation than where I started with no means of making up for that lost ground in terms of power.

You're missing the point of the set.
You can build around the "curse" effect to mitigate it (see the previous graph).
But you don't have to plan on stacking to 20. In Trial, ppl can easily get to 3-6 stacks, then let others do the killing blows. It will still be OP, giving you 450 - 900 raw SP for "only" 6% - 12% more damage taken.
What's more, you need to learn how to manage the curse, and reset the item. Nb can cloak, everyone can pop an invisibility potion. I havn't run the numbers yet, but I guess staying at 6 stacks (mean) is waaaay worth poping a potion now and then.

Palefang

Runefang wrote: »

In PvE at least rebuilding stacks isn't something you can do easily in a trial so its not like you can just drop stacks when you have too many.

Note that the item is worth having over a monster set starting 2 stacks.......

XomRhoK

Palefang wrote: »

I will try to do a breakdown of this set, from a theorycrafting point of view.
Expect numbers, but no parses.

For the demonstration, I will use "1p bonus" as a scaling tool. It is, so to speak, one the 2-4 bonus you get on sets, or the 1p bonus of monster sets.


. What is Thrassian's Strangler real net worth ?

What does it provides ?
1 – Killing an enemy grants you a persistent stack of Sload’s Call, up to a maximum of 20 stacks. Each stack increases your Spell Damage by 150.

So, for every ennemy killed (up to 20), you get 150 SP.
Thrassian is a 1p bonus, as such it should be compared as others 1p bonus. The standard for 1p SP bonus is 129 SP.
Let's also note that the standard for a 5p bonus is 300 SP.
(Since the 'normalization' of set, the "standard" bonus for 5p is around 2,3x the worth of a 1p.)

Basically, Thrassian gives you the worth of a 5p standard bonus with 2 stacks.
It means that the maximum 20 stacks gives you 10 times the worth of a 5p, or 23 times the worth of a 1p bonus.


What is the drawback ?
Each stack also increases your damage taken by 2%.

So, for every ennemy killed (up to 20), you take 2% more damages, up to 40%.
This increase is multiplicative with damages reduction, and not additive. It cannot be offset by CP or armor alone.

But, if the incoming damages is increased by X%, you can increase your life by X%, and take the same damages (in life%) as before.
As to speak, to offset Thrassian's drawback, you have to increase your life by X%, where X is 2x [nb of stacks].
In the worst case, it is worth 40% of your max life.


What is the net value of the set fully stacked ?

Most DD play PvE content with around 18k max life. (Rounded up)
It means the drawback of TS could be offset with 7200 more HP.
1p life bonus is worth 1206 HP. Which means, the drawback of TS costs you around 6x 1p bonus.

Overall, the net value of TS fully stacked is 16 1p raw bonus.
(Which would translate into 2064 SP worth.)


What if the set is not fully stacked ?
Let's assume that, while building, you have permanently offset the drawback of a fully stacked TS. It costs 6p 1p bonus worth.

So the scaling of TS net worth with stacks is the following :


You break even at 5 stacks. (Which means the build is worth starting 6 stacks.)
At 7 stacks, the net gain is worth a 5p standard bonus.
At 9 stacks, you have the net gain of a 5p stacked Siroria.


How does it compare to other sets ?

I think a graph is more explicit :


So, Thrassian's (mitigated) is worth more than 3 times Siroria when on 20 stacks.


How easy is it to build ?
Actually, this is an easy question.
+7k2 health is pretty easy to have and can be achieved with Attributes points alone. You will sacrifice a bit of your max ressource that, in turn, may make sustain a bit harder.
But you will still have access to 2 full 5p sets.


Overall, this set overperforms from a theorycrafting point of view.
I didn't do the breakdown with the new curse added (heal reduction), but I think it is pointless. Fully charged Thrassian is so powerful that you will want to throw a whole 2-3-4-5 bonus set to mitigate its effect and it will still be better than Siroria or the like.


My suggestion :
The idea of such a kiss-curse is great, but the total number of SP given is too damn high.
Based on this breakdown, I would do this suggestion :
- Lower the max stacks to 7.
- Increase the damage increase taken from 2% to 5,7%.
- Remove the healing taken / shield strengh reduction.

The net gain while on 7 stacks will be around the value of Julianos if you wish to go for extra health points. It won't be an auto-include without any drawback anymore.
However, this set will still be one-of-a-kind, as it offers you a trade of survivability for max damages. The canon-glass builds will have a tremendous raw gain of 1k SP. It will still be played by top players who rely on timed shields / healing to survive.
The max count of stacks being lower, it will be more accessible during trials, and if you die, it will be refilled more quickly.

That's my take on the set.

You forgot to take into account one more thing, in ESO spell and weapon damage gives you not only damage, but also healing power, on top of that all that damage and healing benefit from crits. So, for example, Rapid Regeneration with additional 3000 spell damage, 60% chance crit and 160% crit damage will heal you for 11418 HP more in 5 seconds, before recent 40% healing nerf and 6850 HP in 5 seconds after 40% healing nerf. Burning Embers will heal you for 4971 HP more in 10 seconds, for 2982 HP in 10 seconds with 40% healing nerf. Puncturing Sweep will heal for 665 HP more on single target in 1 second, 399 HP more after healing nerf. So the only thing player need worry about is to not be oneshoted(7200 HP increase), after that player by his own can easily bypass this "curse", even with 40% healing nerf, even without changing one of the item sets for additional healing.
Seems guys in ZOS don't understand how their own game works.

Scaling damage and healing from one source is one of biggest thing that restrict builds and roles divercity, in my opinion, because all you need to carry about is not to be oneshoted, and stack as much power as you can after that, because this power will transfer on both your damage and your survavability.
ZOS can untie damage and healing from one source, even at this stage of development and game life. They can make criticals don't affect healing, and made some adjustments in coefficients, so if you want pure damage build you go for crits, if you want average damage and selfheal you go for spell and weapon damage, if you want to be a healer, you go for spell and weapond damage and healing done. Or just replace part of set bonuses on Damage done and Healing done, to make them more specialised.

Palefang wrote: »

That's another reason why there is a problem with this set.
You are going to die on red telegraphed zones, or lack dps because of cluncky rotation.
But what about top players ? They will flawlessly gain a huge edge over lower skill players. You raise the ceiling and lower the floor... exactly the opposite of what that update wanted to do.

I absolutely agree.

Banana

I die regularly enough already. So a big pass on this for me.
I'm guessing we can't sell these things?

Septimus_Magna

From the outset its obvious these kiss-curse sets and skills are extremely powerful in the hands of skilled players and literally a curse for the average low level DD. It not necessarily a bad thing if you adjust your build for it. Everyone thinks 40% extra dmg taken is a major issue with 18k health, with 25k health its a completely different story.

Like someone already mentioned, heals also scale off spell dmg so self healing reduction compared to your normal unbuffed heals will be less than 40%. Dedicated healers already overheal in 99% of the time so I dont see this as an issue at all. It actually makes healers more desirable which is a good thing!

The reduction of dmg shields is also not a big problem if you increase your health.
Hardened Ward/Dampen Magic is capped at 60% health:

Shield size with 18k health -> 10.8k
Shield size with 25k health -> 15k
Shield size with 25k health + 20 stacks of TS -> 9k

Depending on the way the TS shield debuff is applied it might end up being more than a 9k shield. This is only 36% of the max 25k health so the value depends on the order of calculations. It could also be possible to increase the shield size with CP into Bastion.

ALeoCat_ESO

If you sacrifice a monster piece or 5 piece set, you would need to cost of losing that bonus as an opportunity cost. In addition, if you are sacrificing a monster piece, you will either have to lose either a heavy or medium piece, and reduce the bonuses from the relative passives in those armor skills and undaunted skills, or you would have to downgrade one of your 5 piece sets to a crafted set to retain that.

On the subject of shields, although the higher max health would improve the max potential of the shield, the shield skills only scale their value with max magicka, not spell damage, which you are sacrificing in lieu of max health. This combined with the 40% shield reduction and 40% damage taken will hit shields extremely hard.

XomRhoK wrote: »

You forgot to take into account one more thing, in ESO spell and weapon damage gives you not only damage, but also healing power, on top of that all that damage and healing benefit from crits. So, for example, Rapid Regeneration with additional 3000 spell damage, 60% chance crit and 160% crit damage will heal you for 11418 HP more in 5 seconds, before recent 40% healing nerf and 6850 HP in 5 seconds after 40% healing nerf. Burning Embers will heal you for 4971 HP more in 10 seconds, for 2982 HP in 10 seconds with 40% healing nerf. Puncturing Sweep will heal for 665 HP more on single target in 1 second, 399 HP more after healing nerf. So the only thing player need worry about is to not be oneshoted(7200 HP increase), after that player by his own can easily bypass this "curse", even with 40% healing nerf, even without changing one of the item sets for additional healing.
Seems guys in ZOS don't understand how their own game works.

This does not take into account the default heal value is also reduced by 40%

To simplify things, counteracting the 40% more damage with 40% more health makes it 40% harder to heal you relative to your previous value. The 40% healing recieved nerf makes it 66.67% harder to heal than before. These multiply together making it take 2.333 times as much healing needed to heal you the same as before.

XomRhoK

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Like someone already mentioned, heals also scale off spell dmg so self healing reduction compared to your normal unbuffed heals will be less than 40%. Dedicated healers already overheal in 99% of the time so I dont see this as an issue at all. It actually makes healers more desirable which is a good thing!

Damage Dealers will compensate "curse" part and on average will receive 1000-1500 free spell power. It will leads to more power creep and more skipping of mechanics. At Overland and Dungeons no one will want healer in the group, better to take additional Damage Dealer and burn boss down before he even start any dangerous mechanics. It's already reality, but will be even worse.

Edit: I did not take into account that base healing also suffer from -40% healing recieved, so healers can be useful.

ALeoCat_ESO wrote: »

This does not take into account the default heal value is also reduced by 40%

To simplify things, counteracting the 40% more damage with 40% more health makes it 40% harder to heal you relative to your previous value. The 40% healing recieved nerf makes it 66.67% harder to heal than before. These multiply together making it take 2.333 times as much healing needed to heal you the same as before.

You are right, i did not take into account that base healing also suffer from -40% healing recieved. I think it will be hard to balance this item. If this item stays in dungeons and trial setups, then good parties will overcome "curses" of this item and will get more power creep, while low skill parties will not be able to use this item. In PvP i see it as a tool for fast moving, kiting snipers with swift jewelry. I just hope that this item will help achieve new interesting types of gameplay and interactions, not another power creep and cancerous oneshots.

Anyron

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

From the outset its obvious these kiss-curse sets and skills are extremely powerful in the hands of skilled players and literally a curse for the average low level DD. It not necessarily a bad thing if you adjust your build for it. Everyone thinks 40% extra dmg taken is a major issue with 18k health, with 25k health its a completely different story.

Like someone already mentioned, heals also scale off spell dmg so self healing reduction compared to your normal unbuffed heals will be less than 40%. Dedicated healers already overheal in 99% of the time so I dont see this as an issue at all. It actually makes healers more desirable which is a good thing!

The reduction of dmg shields is also not a big problem if you increase your health.
Hardened Ward/Dampen Magic is capped at 60% health:

Shield size with 18k health -> 10.8k
Shield size with 25k health -> 15k
Shield size with 25k health + 20 stacks of TS -> 9k

Depending on the way the TS shield debuff is applied it might end up being more than a 9k shield. This is only 36% of the max 25k health so the value depends on the order of calculations. It could also be possible to increase the shield size with CP into Bastion.

Please do your math in no-cp pvp where shields are not limitted by max health but max magicka
Where, when you stack everything to magicka (to reach 40k mag in noCp you have to focus everything to max mag), you have 9k max shield. Shield size isnt increased by spell damage and that 40% more damage received plus 40% shield reduction puts your shield strength (not numbers but effective shield strength) to poor numbers.
Shield reduction alone decreases it to 5400 and remember i get 40% more damage from enemies. Real strength is at 4000 at most. For skill that costs 4200 mag and cannot crit its poor.

MLGProPlayer

Palefang wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I'm fine with with this being the new 1pc meta.

I'm not.
For a single, simple reason : there is no stamina counterpart.

I didn't realize this didn't increase weapon damage too. I just assumed it was +150 SD/+150 WD as I skimmed the notes (that's how they've been designing most new sets over the past year or two).

What an absolutely ridiculous decision. How does *** like this get approved?

Universe

Target dummy parses are irrelevant.
It is useless like the constant werewolf form attained from being in the special house.

The bearer of the Mythic item will have to deal with major drawbacks that make high dps with this Mythic item near impossible if not impossible.
Current effect:
"Killing an enemy grants you a persistent stack of Sload’s Call, up to a maximum of 20 stacks. Each stack increases your Spell Damage by 150, but also increases your damage taken by 2%. Removing Thrassian Stranglers, crouching, or going invisible removes all stacks of Sload’s Call.
This set now decreases your healing taken and effectiveness of damage shields by 2% per stack as well to increase the risk of constantly staying at high stacks.
Please note the set still has the opt-out mechanic of activating crouch or invisibility to immediately remove your stacks to remove these dangerous debuffs in a moment where your character might otherwise die.
Added additional layers of security to this set to prevent gaining additional bonuses if you somehow bypassed the 20 stack cap.
"

*I will be surprised if it is even somewhat viable in high damage situations, like vet group dungeons/trials & PVP.
The bearer will die quickly.

Palefang

Why does everyone assume you either have to wear TS and sit on 20 stacks or just don't use it ?!
What is going to happen is that in Trials, Dungeons, etc... people will wear that and share the stacks.

This set is worth starting 2-3 stacks. (See new Domihaus for comparison purposes.)
Why can't you just sit on 3-6 stacks ?
People in Trial will run this. No doubt. On low-trashs fights, they will share stacks, so when you have your 6 stacks or so (let me remind you it is 900SP, that is 1,5x max bonus on Siroria for a 1p item), you stop dealing killing blows, so you don't keep stacking the curse, and other people can "charge" their own.
On heavy-trashs fights, you will have no problems resetting the set by either going invisible (pot/skills) and/or crouching (idk if the latter works).

And for what drawback ?
12% more damage taken and 12% harder to heal isn't big in most of the cases, for top level groups.
I wouldn't care much about that. Actually, most of the mechanics that kills me are 1 shots or 2 shots (I'm mostly speaking about vAS+2, vCR, vHoF). That wouldn't change.

ALeoCat_ESO wrote: »

To simplify things, counteracting the 40% more damage with 40% more health makes it 40% harder to heal you relative to your previous value. The 40% healing recieved nerf makes it 66.67% harder to heal than before. These multiply together making it take 2.333 times as much healing needed to heal you the same as before.

Yes, but not exactly. The self-heal you will do will be empowered by the raw SP you just gained.
Right now, the Damage Pool of Magicka DD is around 8k (= SP + Mana/10.5)
A raw increase of 150 SP means an increase of 187.5 Damage Pool (Minor and Major buffs to SP). That means each stack increase your self heal by 2.3 (minus 2% because of the curse).
Some classes (MagNB with Swallow Soul and MagTemp with Sweeps) will take advantage of that to ensure part or all of their own healing. What's more, out there, there are skills that just heal you over time, so that it doesn't put an extra strain on the healer.

But I think we are all getting it wrong. You do not have to sit at 20 stacks during a Trial. You might choose your nb of stacks if you know the fight well enough and know when to refresh it.

Palefang

Basically, I feel everyone here is like :

"You get a lot of SP, but actually, even if you try to mitigate, it will be complicated / strain on healer etc... because of 40% curse."

I'm saying :
"You still get too [Snip] much SP even with a curse on 10-12% that is perfectly manageable without changes."

And there lies another problem : everyone will play TS because they will share stacks to not have a curse skyrocketing too high...
It will be an incentive to finish adds if I'm low on stacks / rebuilding. But it will also be an incentive to let others do the killing blows if I'm high enough. (pun intended)

In the end, we won't have 1-2 guys running TS and stacking 20 stacks, relying on others to survive, but 40 stacks distributed among 8 DD is perfectly manageable for everyone and still increase the overall group dps.

EDIT : 40 stacks over 8 DDs would mean +750 SP / person mean. Which means 937.5 in Damage Pool (minor and major bonus).
Mean Damage Pool before boost is 8k. That is 12% increase, and, as such, 12% overall group dps. The price to pay is 10% more strain on healers.
12% group dps is more than 100% uptime in Major Slayer. (Major Slayer impact is multiplicative with CP and thus gives a little less that 12%).

[Edited for profanity bypass]

Dagoth_Rac

Palefang wrote: »

EDIT : 40 stacks over 8 DDs would mean +750 SP / person mean. Which means 937.5 in Damage Pool (minor and major bonus).
Mean Damage Pool before boost is 8k. That is 12% increase, and, as such, 12% overall group dps.

Spell damage is not the same as actual damage done. Max Magicka is roughly half of your tooltip calculation, and is possibly even more than half because magicka scales better than spell damage on magicka builds (whereas weapon damage scales better than max stamina on stamina builds). So a 12% increase in spell damage should be closer to 6% actual DPS. You are also giving up something to wear Thrassian Stranglers, probably a 5-piece bonus or a monster set, and that lost opportunity needs to be calculated in, as well.

Septimus_Magna

Anyron wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

From the outset its obvious these kiss-curse sets and skills are extremely powerful in the hands of skilled players and literally a curse for the average low level DD. It not necessarily a bad thing if you adjust your build for it. Everyone thinks 40% extra dmg taken is a major issue with 18k health, with 25k health its a completely different story.

Like someone already mentioned, heals also scale off spell dmg so self healing reduction compared to your normal unbuffed heals will be less than 40%. Dedicated healers already overheal in 99% of the time so I dont see this as an issue at all. It actually makes healers more desirable which is a good thing!

The reduction of dmg shields is also not a big problem if you increase your health.
Hardened Ward/Dampen Magic is capped at 60% health:

Shield size with 18k health -> 10.8k
Shield size with 25k health -> 15k
Shield size with 25k health + 20 stacks of TS -> 9k

Depending on the way the TS shield debuff is applied it might end up being more than a 9k shield. This is only 36% of the max 25k health so the value depends on the order of calculations. It could also be possible to increase the shield size with CP into Bastion.

Please do your math in no-cp pvp where shields are not limitted by max health but max magicka
Where, when you stack everything to magicka (to reach 40k mag in noCp you have to focus everything to max mag), you have 9k max shield. Shield size isnt increased by spell damage and that 40% more damage received plus 40% shield reduction puts your shield strength (not numbers but effective shield strength) to poor numbers.
Shield reduction alone decreases it to 5400 and remember i get 40% more damage from enemies. Real strength is at 4000 at most. For skill that costs 4200 mag and cannot crit its poor.

First of all, if you're running TS you should be squishy. If you can stay at 18k health and just slap on a 10.8k shield to mitigate the extra 40% incoming dmg you're getting all the benefits at a small cost.

Like I said, I still have to test the new 6.0.2 changes but the %based dmg in ESO is usually not the actual percentage. When I tested the new BRP dual-wield effect it increased my outgoing dmg by roughly 6% while the tooltip says 10% dmg increase for example.

Dagoth_Rac

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Like I said, I still have to test the new 6.0.2 changes but the %based dmg in ESO is usually not the actual percentage. When I tested the new BRP dual-wield effect it increased my outgoing dmg by roughly 6% while the tooltip says 10% dmg increase for example.

Those are always increases of "base damage", not actual damage done. You are never doing base damage. There are always all kinds of damage buffs already going on. If you are doing 130% of base damage and increase it to 140% base damage, 140/130 = about 7.7% actual damage increase.

Keeping track of what buffs are up, the exact way they modify damage, etc., is really difficult. That is why testing in a real game environment is so important compared to most of the thought experiments we see on forums.

Palefang

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Palefang wrote: »

EDIT : 40 stacks over 8 DDs would mean +750 SP / person mean. Which means 937.5 in Damage Pool (minor and major bonus).
Mean Damage Pool before boost is 8k. That is 12% increase, and, as such, 12% overall group dps.

Spell damage is not the same as actual damage done. Max Magicka is roughly half of your tooltip calculation, and is possibly even more than half because magicka scales better than spell damage on magicka builds (whereas weapon damage scales better than max stamina on stamina builds). So a 12% increase in spell damage should be closer to 6% actual DPS. You are also giving up something to wear Thrassian Stranglers, probably a 5-piece bonus or a monster set, and that lost opportunity needs to be calculated in, as well.

I was speaking of Damage Pool, not SP.
I've done the calculation in a post before.
Damage Pool = SP + [Mana/10,5]
It's what is used to factor your tooltips.

750 raw SP are boosted by major and minor buff (forgot the name) that gives respec. +5% and +20% SP.
Overall, it represents 937.5%. Not taking into account Mage's Guild passives.

Damage Pool of 8k is extracted from parses onto Iron Atronach, full buffed (maybe more than in regular Trial).

So, saying that TS gives you 12% more damages is accurate

Palefang

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Like I said, I still have to test the new 6.0.2 changes but the %based dmg in ESO is usually not the actual percentage. When I tested the new BRP dual-wield effect it increased my outgoing dmg by roughly 6% while the tooltip says 10% dmg increase for example.

That's how it works.
All the % bonus damages are additive.

For example, if you would deal 1000 direct damages out of your stats, and have +20% direct damages (CP), +13 Physical Damage (CP), +5% Damage (Minor Slayer), +15% damage (Major Slayer) and that new buff (+10%), the total damages would be :
1000x (1+ 0,20+0,13+0,05+0,15+0,10) = 1000 x 1.63 = 1630 dmgs.

Before using that new set, in that example, you were at 1000x (1+ 0,20+0,13+0,05+0,15) = 1530 dmgs.

So, your net gain was 100 dmgs, but your dps gain was 100/1530 = 6.5%

Septimus_Magna

Last night I did a quick test to get a better understanding of the negative effects of Thrassian Stranglers.

Race: Breton
Class: Sorcerer
Gear setup: 1x TS, 5x MS, 5x FGD and 1x Zaan (6 light, 1 heavy and arcane jewelry)
Mundus Stone: Shadow
Buff food: Blue max health+mag
Attribute points: 29 into magicka and 35* into health (to reach 25k health).
*After the test I noticed that I forgot the Undaunted Mettle passives.

Red CP:
49 Hardy, 49 Elemental Defender, 48 Thick Skinned
81 Ironclad, 43 Spell Shield

Results

• The increased incoming dmg with 20 stacks was 28.6% with both physical and fire dmg.
• The shield size with 0 CP into Bastion was reduced by 45%, Im not sure why this is more than the intended 40%.
• The shield size with 20 CP into Bastion was reduced by 36.7%.
• The shield size with 40 CP into Bastion was reduced by 30.2%.

Positive points

• The actual dmg taken is lower than 40% but still significant enough to make it dangerous to constantly run 20 stacks.
• CP into the Bastion increase the shield size.

Negative points

• The shield size reduction is more than the intended 40%.

Next points to test

• Shield size and reduction with Arthaeum buff food, Undaunted mettle passive and/or Mage mundus.
• The shield size reduction with enough max magicka to reach the 60% health cap at 25k health.
• The healing reduction with 20 stacks and the influence of CP into Blessed.

Anyron

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

From the outset its obvious these kiss-curse sets and skills are extremely powerful in the hands of skilled players and literally a curse for the average low level DD. It not necessarily a bad thing if you adjust your build for it. Everyone thinks 40% extra dmg taken is a major issue with 18k health, with 25k health its a completely different story.

Like someone already mentioned, heals also scale off spell dmg so self healing reduction compared to your normal unbuffed heals will be less than 40%. Dedicated healers already overheal in 99% of the time so I dont see this as an issue at all. It actually makes healers more desirable which is a good thing!

The reduction of dmg shields is also not a big problem if you increase your health.
Hardened Ward/Dampen Magic is capped at 60% health:

Shield size with 18k health -> 10.8k
Shield size with 25k health -> 15k
Shield size with 25k health + 20 stacks of TS -> 9k

Depending on the way the TS shield debuff is applied it might end up being more than a 9k shield. This is only 36% of the max 25k health so the value depends on the order of calculations. It could also be possible to increase the shield size with CP into Bastion.

Please do your math in no-cp pvp where shields are not limitted by max health but max magicka
Where, when you stack everything to magicka (to reach 40k mag in noCp you have to focus everything to max mag), you have 9k max shield. Shield size isnt increased by spell damage and that 40% more damage received plus 40% shield reduction puts your shield strength (not numbers but effective shield strength) to poor numbers.
Shield reduction alone decreases it to 5400 and remember i get 40% more damage from enemies. Real strength is at 4000 at most. For skill that costs 4200 mag and cannot crit its poor.

First of all, if you're running TS you should be squishy. If you can stay at 18k health and just slap on a 10.8k shield to mitigate the extra 40% incoming dmg you're getting all the benefits at a small cost.

Like I said, I still have to test the new 6.0.2 changes but the %based dmg in ESO is usually not the actual percentage. When I tested the new BRP dual-wield effect it increased my outgoing dmg by roughly 6% while the tooltip says 10% dmg increase for example.

problem here is shields got double hit, first by increased damage to it by 40% and another 40% size reduction. while this can maybe be sustainable in cp ( i dont know i havent played CP pvp more than three years) , its impossible to sustain it in no-cp. in this case malacath's ring is much much better.

Palefang

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Last night I did a quick test to get a better understanding of the negative effects of Thrassian Stranglers.

Results

• The increased incoming dmg with 20 stacks was 28.6% with both physical and fire dmg.
• The shield size with 0 CP into Bastion was reduced by 45%, Im not sure why this is more than the intended 40%.
• The shield size with 20 CP into Bastion was reduced by 36.7%.
• The shield size with 40 CP into Bastion was reduced by 30.2%.

Hmm... That's actually +40% more damages, not +28%...?
Without stacks : 1041
With stacks : 1458
Increased damages : (1458-1041)/1041 = 40,0%

So it works as intended ^.^

Brrrofski

What makes me laugh about all these mythic items is that they nerfed monster sets so it fitted in with other set "efficiency". Yet they realease 1 pieces that blows 5 pieces out of the water.

Look at that regen necklace. It can give you 900 regen in total (they can proc at the same time) BEFORE being amped by armor and class passives, cp and buffs. What other set is that efficient?

Runefang

Palefang wrote: »

Basically, I feel everyone here is like :

"You get a lot of SP, but actually, even if you try to mitigate, it will be complicated / strain on healer etc... because of 40% curse."

I'm saying :
"You still get too [Snip] much SP even with a curse on 10-12% that is perfectly manageable without changes."

And there lies another problem : everyone will play TS because they will share stacks to not have a curse skyrocketing too high...
It will be an incentive to finish adds if I'm low on stacks / rebuilding. But it will also be an incentive to let others do the killing blows if I'm high enough. (pun intended)

In the end, we won't have 1-2 guys running TS and stacking 20 stacks, relying on others to survive, but 40 stacks distributed among 8 DD is perfectly manageable for everyone and still increase the overall group dps.

EDIT : 40 stacks over 8 DDs would mean +750 SP / person mean. Which means 937.5 in Damage Pool (minor and major bonus).
Mean Damage Pool before boost is 8k. That is 12% increase, and, as such, 12% overall group dps. The price to pay is 10% more strain on healers.
12% group dps is more than 100% uptime in Major Slayer. (Major Slayer impact is multiplicative with CP and thus gives a little less that 12%).

[Edited for profanity bypass]

When you drop your stacks you're now running an empty set. It's worthless at this point. So its definitely not a 12% damage increase if you have to drop stacks all the time. You'll also have to rebuild them and depending on the trial/boss that isn't necessarily easy if there are few adds to kill (vCR/vAS) so you could easily sit on low stacks for a while. Given the incoming damage in vCR particularly you won't want to run many stacks either.

When you drop your stacks you'll be weaker than those who haven't dropped stacks making the killing blow harder to get. And having your teammates leave you the killing blow isn't always straightforward depending on the fight.

Overall the set just seems like a massive pain to run and not fun at all. Really that's my major criticism of it, its complicated and seems unnecessary.

Septimus_Magna

Palefang wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Last night I did a quick test to get a better understanding of the negative effects of Thrassian Stranglers.

Results

• The increased incoming dmg with 20 stacks was 28.6% with both physical and fire dmg.
• The shield size with 0 CP into Bastion was reduced by 45%, Im not sure why this is more than the intended 40%.
• The shield size with 20 CP into Bastion was reduced by 36.7%.
• The shield size with 40 CP into Bastion was reduced by 30.2%.

Hmm... That's actually +40% more damages, not +28%...?
Without stacks : 1041
With stacks : 1458
Increased damages : (1458-1041)/1041 = 40,0%

So it works as intended ^.^

You're right, the extra 40% dmg taken is working as intended if you calculate it correctly.

For the shield size its still a bit strange though.
(14170-7798)/7798= 42,6% reduction with 0 CP into Bastion.

Austinseph1

Given that it now Increases damage taken, reduces healing taken, and reduces shield size by 2% for every stack it's no longer worth it. A long wind up, and resets with a group wipe even if it isn't related to your increased vulnerability... It's just dummy cheese at this point. I wouldn't even hold onto it because bank space is going to be a big problem with all of the new items.