How dps-players will learn to play?

Winstonshead

Hello everyone.

On live if some player want to get good dps he/she need to go vMA
vMA is very good challenge for all new players.
You passed vMA - you know your class better, you know how to survive in hard situation and how to deal damage in that situation.
It's some kind of test for all dps players, if you passed it, you can go for next challenges.

And what will be after update? Most of new dps players will go nMA, get weapons, but will not learn they class specific and opportunities.

So all we will have dps players good for dummies and bad in veteran content. That's bad.

I think perfect vMA weapon needs to be more powerful than normal versions. For example, 50% difference.

Runefang

Well at least fewer players will learn the vMA shuffle. That's not a useful skill given how many stack n burn fights there are.

Winstonshead

I mean, if you are raid leader of some pve static group, soon you will get requests to join your static from dps players who never passed vMA

Nairinhe

By my experience vMA combat is very different from any group combat, especially trials. So, I'm not sure Maelstrom skills are that useful in a trial.

Winstonshead

Nairinhe wrote: »

By my experience vMA combat is very different from any group combat, especially trials. So, I'm not sure Maelstrom skills are that useful in a trial.

But we have difference between ones who passed vMA 1-2 and more times and ones who didn't.

Casul

I see VMA as an indication that a player can persevere through a difficult experience and come out on top.

Asardes

IMO if they add the new weapons they should also revamp the content, with new mechanics and/or suppressing certain buffs. For example perfected Maelstrom weapons to drop from a vMA HM where all sigils are removed, stage boss HP is buffed 30-50%, and on the final stage regular adds are replaced with some of the previous mini-bosses, bringing some of their mechanics. For example have Argonian Behemoth instead of crematorial guard assisting Solkyn Voriak. It would be more in line with other trials, where perfected doesn't drop from simple veteran but veteran +2/3. Also add specific achievements.

satanio

Nairinhe wrote: »

By my experience vMA combat is very different from any group combat, especially trials. So, I'm not sure Maelstrom skills are that useful in a trial.

Passing vMA is one of the steps in our guild ranking system. Players who did pass it, perform better in trials, less deaths, higher DPS. Players who did not pass it do not perform as good. It teaches something.

Thicclady

Winstonshead wrote: »

Hello everyone.

I think perfect vMA weapon needs to be more powerful than normal versions. For example, 50% difference.

I think flawless run should rewards perfect weapon, which would be more powerful.

MoaRRise

From a pure PVE perspective: I can't agree that playing vMA increases your skill for group-content in any way. But I get the point here. Making things too accessible removes the need to improve the skills in front of the monitor. We already have a large amount of players that are struggling with normal dlc content and a Maelstrom staff will not change that.

Especially if you consider, that this specific staff increases the damage you do by weaving, many casual players won't have any benefit from it. I still think that introducing sets like Zaan were improving the game far more, since it creates an easy way to do a reasonable dps without a proper knowledge. This doesn't give you automatically a top-score-dps, but it makes you kind of ready for group content and gives newer players the opportunity to focus on mechanics, rather than a rotation.

I think the question ZOS should ask themselves is not how you can buff the baseline and nerf the top-end to bring them closer together. They rather should look for a convenient way to get the casual player to learn the game by playing it, because content stays the same.

llBlack_Heartll

MoaRRise wrote: »

From a pure PVE perspective: I can't agree that playing vMA increases your skill for group-content in any way. But I get the point here. Making things too accessible removes the need to improve the skills in front of the monitor. We already have a large amount of players that are struggling with normal dlc content and a Maelstrom staff will not change that.

Especially if you consider, that this specific staff increases the damage you do by weaving, many casual players won't have any benefit from it. I still think that introducing sets like Zaan were improving the game far more, since it creates an easy way to do a reasonable dps without a proper knowledge. This doesn't give you automatically a top-score-dps, but it makes you kind of ready for group content and gives newer players the opportunity to focus on mechanics, rather than a rotation.

I think the question ZOS should ask themselves is not how you can buff the baseline and nerf the top-end to bring them closer together. They rather should look for a convenient way to get the casual player to learn the game by playing it, because content stays the same.

Being able to learn mechanics and beat vma definitely made me a better player 100%

Lisutaris

Winstonshead wrote: »

Hello everyone.

On live if some player want to get good dps he/she need to go vMA
vMA is very good challenge for all new players.
You passed vMA - you know your class better, you know how to survive in hard situation and how to deal damage in that situation.
It's some kind of test for all dps players, if you passed it, you can go for next challenges.

And what will be after update? Most of new dps players will go nMA, get weapons, but will not learn they class specific and opportunities.

So all we will have dps players good for dummies and bad in veteran content. That's bad.

I think perfect vMA weapon needs to be more powerful than normal versions. For example, 50% difference.

It's a test for everybody... ofc you have to be some sort of dd or hybrid.
As you can finish the thing with ~15-20k single target dps (which is not much) it's not really a "test" or way to practice good dps. It's more about learning mechanics and movement.

Most ~80k+ dps players (on dummy) are able to move well or react to mechs, they are just "not expecting it to be expected".... because nuking enemies solves problems

robpr

You will still see complain threads about Argonian Behemoths killing people in nMA, I assure you. This guy wipes even on norm, why I know that? DK Flames of Oblivion kills tree-minders in almost one crit hit.

Xarc

Winstonshead wrote: »

Hello everyone.

On live if some player want to get good dps he/she need to go vMA
vMA is very good challenge for all new players.
You passed vMA - you know your class better, you know how to survive in hard situation and how to deal damage in that situation.
It's some kind of test for all dps players, if you passed it, you can go for next challenges.

And what will be after update? Most of new dps players will go nMA, get weapons, but will not learn they class specific and opportunities.

So all we will have dps players good for dummies and bad in veteran content. That's bad.

I think perfect vMA weapon needs to be more powerful than normal versions. For example, 50% difference.

You are wrong.
Having maelstrom weapon (normal) isnt the final goal of eternity or something like that, man.
People are going to vma to get title, scores, and now they will to get perfect weapon. still 3 reasons

Atherakhia

This is nonsense.

What does vMA tell you about a player that you can't better learn by running a vet DLC dungeon with them? VMA is nearly entirely mechanics driven and many of the mechanics aren't that complicated. There are guides all over the internet on how to do this with a single bar and only a handful of activated abilities. If the weapon wasn't BIS, most players likely wouldn't bother with this place to begin with. Now they certainly won't because the power gap between vet and normal is nothing.

If this game honestly wants to "teach" new players to DPS it would need drastic changes to the various combat mechanics that are unintuitive, pointless and buggy.

Things like:
Bar swapping not being reliable and very clunky. If you want an example of a game with a good bar swap mechanic look at GW2.
Animation Cancelling/Weaving is not an easy mechanic for new players to pick up and there is nothing in the game to 'teach' players how to do it. It's very likely a bug and they have no way to fix it. But this is probably the single thing holding players back as light attacks account for such a large portion of an individuals damage.

You want to close the 'skill' gap, fix the things that are actually holding players back.

Gilvoth

forumusername-522966 wrote:

vMA -
It's some kind of test for all dps players, if you passed it, you can go for next challenges.

no-where, on the entire eso mmo do we find anything written like that. not even in the eso T.O.S.
the statement quoted is simply a false belief.

Blynjubitr

Nairinhe wrote: »

By my experience vMA combat is very different from any group combat, especially trials. So, I'm not sure Maelstrom skills are that useful in a trial.

If you are not able to survive vMA you will never survive let alone vAS+2, even vAS+0 or vCR+0. Movement is important thing and vMA is one of the best places you can learn it.

Maulkin

Best way to learn to DPS is to watch a couple of instructional videos and practice a lot on the dummy. vMA was never good for practising DPS anyway. Although it had other uses, in terms of learning the overall game mechanics.

In the pre-dummy days one of the GMs of a trials progression guild told me that his way of sorting good candidates with little trials experience, was to ask for Flawless Conqueror achievement. It showed him the player was putting in the time and effort, as well as showing great attention to detail, all desirable traits for a top end PvEr.

SidraWillowsky

Blynjubitr wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

By my experience vMA combat is very different from any group combat, especially trials. So, I'm not sure Maelstrom skills are that useful in a trial.

If you are not able to survive vMA you will never survive let alone vAS+2, even vAS+0 or vCR+0. Movement is important thing and vMA is one of the best places you can learn it.

It's not about the movement, I don't think- it's about how, in vMA, you can zoom around without having to consider where other people are and how your movements will affect them. In vMA you're not going to negatively affect anyone else if you stand in red or zoom from one end of the arena to the other. If you're like me and your natural inclination is to zoom around like a coked-up hummingbird (high APM y'all!!), vMA can actually make movement issues worse.

To address the topic at large- I would hope that people know that there's more to a player than their vMA weapon or parse number. Yes, it can tell you a lot about how they're able to persevere, learn mechanics, and take the time to learn a solid rotation, but even that gives little indication of how they synergize with groups. Or else I'm projecting- I've got the Flawless Conqueror title and can parse high on dummies, but I'm not actually great at group play. Or at least the level at which I should *theoretically* perform in group play doesn't match how I *actually* perform. I'm not saying I'm terrible or anything, but I've had to put a LOT of work into being a good team player.

Obviously seeing that someone has a vMA weapon says a lot about how well they play at a general level. But it says nothing about how they play in groups.

Septimus_Magna

Atherakhia wrote: »

This is nonsense.

What does vMA tell you about a player that you can't better learn by running a vet DLC dungeon with them? VMA is nearly entirely mechanics driven and many of the mechanics aren't that complicated. There are guides all over the internet on how to do this with a single bar and only a handful of activated abilities. If the weapon wasn't BIS, most players likely wouldn't bother with this place to begin with. Now they certainly won't because the power gap between vet and normal is nothing.

If this game honestly wants to "teach" new players to DPS it would need drastic changes to the various combat mechanics that are unintuitive, pointless and buggy.

Things like:
Bar swapping not being reliable and very clunky. If you want an example of a game with a good bar swap mechanic look at GW2.
Animation Cancelling/Weaving is not an easy mechanic for new players to pick up and there is nothing in the game to 'teach' players how to do it. It's very likely a bug and they have no way to fix it. But this is probably the single thing holding players back as light attacks account for such a large portion of an individuals damage.

You want to close the 'skill' gap, fix the things that are actually holding players back.

The major difference is that you can get carried in a vet DLC dungeon by a good group, in vMA thats not possible.

vMA teaches players multiple important lessons: avoid red, focus important targets first, dont ignore the mechanics, pay attention to your surroundings etc etc. You also learn that fights get easier if you deal more dps, so it helps a lot to know your rotation even while being pressured and trying to survive.

I agree that there should be in-game tutorials to teach players how to weave but its not nearly as important as you might think. My weaving isnt great but I have cleared vMA, even got the flawless run after a while.

Stuff like bar swap not being reliable is annoying for everyone but its just something you have to get used to, it doesnt mean you cannot complete content.

Atherakhia

That's not the point I was trying to make, but you're right... you can be carried through anything but vMA by the simple fact that vMA is solo content. On the flipside, just for shiggles I asked over craglorn chat if someone would do vMA for me for 100k and 7 people said yes. Now granted I wouldn't do that for account security reasons, let alone any TOS issues that represents. But still, completing any content in this game is proof of nothing.

The point I was trying to make was guilds that legitimately want to recruit for progression in bleeding edge content in this game likely wouldn't use achievements or gear at all. They'd take the individual with them through a vet DLC dungeon and see if they knew their stuff.

vMA isn't a gateway between the skilled and unskilled. Only those who have free time, patience, and a need for the specific items in there. Like I said above, no one is going to bother with vMA in the future because the disparity between perfected and normal weapons is so inconsequential now and there is real competition with the weapons via the new relics being introduced.

The point I was making is the premise behind this entire thread is flawed and the argument that the gear is too easy to get is irrelevant. And it should be. This is not a vertical progression MMO.

starkerealm

Winstonshead wrote: »

I mean, if you are raid leader of some pve static group, soon you will get requests to join your static from dps players who never passed vMA

And that happens now. If you want to insist on a vMA clear for a player, you need to ask. Even simply looking at a character's gear is no longer indicative, since the vMA weapons appear as outfit pages.

If it still care about this, it's worth remembering that VMA TEACHES YOU NOTHING ABOUT HOW TO APPROACH GROUP CONTENT.

If I had a nickle for every vMA shuffler I've seen in vAA doing their best to wipe the group... I probably wouldn't be able to afford a cup of coffee, but I'd have a couple bucks.

As much as it's a right of passage, vMA encourages bad behavior. Things that will not fly in group content.

How will DPS learn? By actually learning to DPS. If they don't want to do that, then vMA wouldn't teach them before.

Hell, vMA was explicitly designed to be completable for healers and tanks. DPS was never the only solution.

phileunderx2

Blynjubitr wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

By my experience vMA combat is very different from any group combat, especially trials. So, I'm not sure Maelstrom skills are that useful in a trial.

If you are not able to survive vMA you will never survive let alone vAS+2, even vAS+0 or vCR+0. Movement is important thing and vMA is one of the best places you can learn it.

No VMA clear for me but I have cleared vas and vcr. Wrong

MartiniDaniels

Idk, imo VMA is times easier then vet trials with random mediocre players, guild or pugs doesn't matter
And with good groups you can complete any trial just laying dead on the ground after each mechanic.

I think VMA is good way for low CP (160-400) to proof that they good enough for vDLC dungeons and veteran trials, but completing VMA at CP810 doesn't mean much.

Katahdin

vMA does not teach you how to DPS

It teaches you how to deal with mechanics, target prioritization and focus without tunnel vision, and switching tasks while paying attention to mechanics at the same time as doing damage.

I definitely am a better player for having beaten vMA.

YandereGirlfriend

Veteran Maelstrom is good introductory PvP training for newer players. It certainly was in my own experience.

You learn to interrupt, bash, dodge-roll, gap-close, keep your buffs up, prioritize different enemy types, and internalize the importance of bursting things down.

Some of those skills do translate well to the PvE environment, especially the rapid reaction to interrupt animations and dodge-rolling Heavy Attacks.

There are SO many players out there with middle-to-high CP who still have no idea what the red lines above an enemy means, which virtually guarantees that they have never completed vMA or, alternatively, it signals that they did so on the EasySorc build.

llBlack_Heartll

Katahdin wrote: »

vMA does not teach you how to DPS

It teaches you how to deal with mechanics, target prioritization and focus without tunnel vision, and switching tasks while paying attention to mechanics at the same time as doing damage.

I definitely am a better player for having beaten vMA.

100% I am a much better player, learning mechanics of VMA.

Asardes

Well I looked trough the actual patch notes. For Maelstrom Bow you get +3% weapon critical, and for Destruction Staff you get 1K penetration. Both are on back bar so the impact on DPS will be insignificant since 1/3 or less of the rotation happens on back bar, and most hard hitting skills are on the front bar. Also most magicka players are already capped for penetration with proper group debuffs and just 9-10 CP in Spell Erosion so they'll probably get a bit of overpentration on back bar. The bow has really gotten a nerf in both versions because Thunderous Volley only stacks 8 times, arguably making the Endless Hail morph useless since damage doesn't increase past the 9s mark - Endless Hail lasts 14s, Arrow Barrage lasts 10s.

cheemers

VMA is excellent for teaching game mechanics and helps prepare people for all forms of end game, PvP and PvE. If you want to have VMA clear as a requirement for guild ranks etc you can still ask for Stormproof or Flawless Conq title, but by having normal MA give you weapons it makes them more accessible to more players who might not be interested in joining these guilds.

Winstonshead

By stages:
Number of vMA stage - Mechanic (Example Trial)
1 - wing (HRC 1 boss, CR, then gryphon is flying)
2 - blades (HOF)
3 - danger and safe places (many trials)
4 - learn to deal damage in motion (many trials)
5 - learn to pay attention on mechanics (many trials)
6 - learn to pay attention on mechanics (many trials)
7 - poison and clean negative effect - (MoL)
8 - learn to pay attention on mechanics (many trials)
9 - learn to pay attention on mechanics (many trials)

Yes vMA is not teach player for group play, but it teach to be attentive, tenacious and deal damage with this in mind
Also you know your class better - when to attack, when to heal, when to defend.

llBlack_Heartll

Asardes wrote: »

Well I looked trough the actual patch notes. For Maelstrom Bow you get +3% weapon critical, and for Destruction Staff you get 1K penetration. Both are on back bar so the impact on DPS will be insignificant since 1/3 or less of the rotation happens on back bar, and most hard hitting skills are on the front bar. Also most magicka players are already capped for penetration with proper group debuffs and just 9-10 CP in Spell Erosion so they'll probably get a bit of overpentration on back bar. The bow has really gotten a nerf in both versions because Thunderous Volley only stacks 8 times, arguably making the Endless Hail morph useless since damage doesn't increase past the 9s mark - Endless Hail lasts 14s, Arrow Barrage lasts 10s.

Is the ramping bonus just capped, like one it reaches 8s does it go back to its standard damage or the damage it had ramped up to?