So....about Ranged magicka Vampires (staff wielders, since it is needed to restore magicka)

Noxavian

Is anyone else a bit worried that with this rework there isn't really a viable ranged DPS ability for vampires? They completely gutted the damage of drain in favor for it restoring a crap ton of HP, but why is Eviscerate a melee focused ability when most magicka characters use staves....?

Proposal: Eviscerate should get 2 morphs. 1 morph should be melee (and possibly converted to stamina, idk. I know there's a crowd for that though. Since it'd just be a claw slash.) And then the other morph should make it ranged. Not too sure what they'd have to change the ability to, but I kinda picture it working similar to that one Nightblade ability that gets turned into a throwing dagger or stab attack.

It just feels very wack that a magicka subclass (vampire) has no viable long range abilities? Seems a little weird.

OmniDo

Agreed.

Paradisius

I was pretty confused about the sudden change of idea for vampiric drain, changing it to deal way less damage and even a morph that restores stamina yet scales off magicka in everything else was weird, if I were to make an idea id keep blood for blood morph, and make it scale off the highest offensive stat, and then change arterial burst to be more of a force shock like animation and range, but it casting in your hand similar to vampiric drain, and the beam of course being red and all that edgy goodness.

Noxavian

Paradisius wrote: »

I was pretty confused about the sudden change of idea for vampiric drain, changing it to deal way less damage and even a morph that restores stamina yet scales off magicka in everything else was weird, if I were to make an idea id keep blood for blood morph, and make it scale off the highest offensive stat, and then change arterial burst to be more of a force shock like animation and range, but it casting in your hand similar to vampiric drain, and the beam of course being red and all that edgy goodness.

I agree! That would be pretty cool.

Also kinda confused why the two morphs of the drain attack change the color. Looks like im sucking pee or mountain dew out of people and I dont like it

Paradisius

I was as well, I get that ultimate is usually tied to yellow and stamina usually tied to green, but it just doesnt look well for a vampire skill animation, just keep them both red please

madman65

I`m going to miss my Magicka Recovery, everything was working for my Warden. Seems like ESO has given the Vampire skill line to the PVP.

Dracane

I would like the magicka morph of Eviscerate to be like the one used by Lord WInterborn. (Is that the name of Spindleclutch 2 vampire lord)

You lunge at an enemy from a distance like a gap closer and then strike. Eviscerate is only 5 meters range, unlike some other melee attacks that are 7 meters range. Eviscerate could have a range of 13 meters to make it easier to get to an enemy.

That would feel pretty cool as a vampire. How balanced that is, I can not say. Cool for sure.
I would sacrifice the 100% crit chance at low health for such a teleport effect.

Mayrael

Dracane wrote: »

I would like the magicka morph of Eviscerate to be like the one used by Lord WInterborn. (Is that the name of Spindleclutch 2 vampire lord)

You lunge at an enemy from a distance like a gap closer and then strike. Eviscerate is only 5 meters range, unlike some other melee attacks that are 7 meters range. Eviscerate could have a range of 13 meters to make it easier to get to an enemy.

That would feel pretty cool as a vampire. How balanced that is, I can not say. Cool for sure.
I would sacrifice the 100% crit chance at low health for such a teleport effect.

Oh man, that would be awesome!

JinxxND

I dont see how vamp is going to be used outside of RP just because the HUGE cost increase to non vamp abilities. Unless you have a group with heavy synergies for sustain or only run it at only vamp level 1-2 it's too much

Noxavian

JinxxND wrote: »

I dont see how vamp is going to be used outside of RP just because the HUGE cost increase to non vamp abilities. Unless you have a group with heavy synergies for sustain or only run it at only vamp level 1-2 it's too much

This in combination with a lack of a proper ranged ability for sure.

Vevvev

Dracane wrote: »

I would like the magicka morph of Eviscerate to be like the one used by Lord WInterborn. (Is that the name of Spindleclutch 2 vampire lord)

You lunge at an enemy from a distance like a gap closer and then strike. Eviscerate is only 5 meters range, unlike some other melee attacks that are 7 meters range. Eviscerate could have a range of 13 meters to make it easier to get to an enemy.

That would feel pretty cool as a vampire. How balanced that is, I can not say. Cool for sure.
I would sacrifice the 100% crit chance at low health for such a teleport effect.

That's actually very similar to how the Clouding Swarm ultimate works on live, and to be honest I wish they kept that power in some way. Vampires are forced to be in melee now but then they don't give us a vampire gap closer to work with.

Noxavian

Vevvev wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I would like the magicka morph of Eviscerate to be like the one used by Lord WInterborn. (Is that the name of Spindleclutch 2 vampire lord)

You lunge at an enemy from a distance like a gap closer and then strike. Eviscerate is only 5 meters range, unlike some other melee attacks that are 7 meters range. Eviscerate could have a range of 13 meters to make it easier to get to an enemy.

That would feel pretty cool as a vampire. How balanced that is, I can not say. Cool for sure.
I would sacrifice the 100% crit chance at low health for such a teleport effect.

That's actually very similar to how the Clouding Swarm ultimate works on live, and to be honest I wish they kept that power in some way. Vampires are forced to be in melee now but then they don't give us a vampire gap closer to work with.

Yeah that is very strange. Or they could of changed the Blood Mist morph into a bat-swarm teleport morph.

BohnT2

The fact that the spammable is meele is the best thing about the whole vampire rework, no more stupid minimum traveltimes just instant damage.

BohnT2

Dracane wrote: »

I would like the magicka morph of Eviscerate to be like the one used by Lord WInterborn. (Is that the name of Spindleclutch 2 vampire lord)

You lunge at an enemy from a distance like a gap closer and then strike. Eviscerate is only 5 meters range, unlike some other melee attacks that are 7 meters range. Eviscerate could have a range of 13 meters to make it easier to get to an enemy.

That would feel pretty cool as a vampire. How balanced that is, I can not say. Cool for sure.
I would sacrifice the 100% crit chance at low health for such a teleport effect.

Well if you want a trash ability that never works properly and will fail to activate most of the time and will be avoided by anyone who's attentive, go for it.

Noxavian

BohnT2 wrote: »

The fact that the spammable is meele is the best thing about the whole vampire rework, no more stupid minimum traveltimes just instant damage.

How, exactly? Using a staff and being in melee range is not good for magicka DPS users. Thus why their weapon is a staff.

It's going to feel so bad when the only way to do damage with vampire abilities is to be up in their face when you're a squishy light armor wearing staff using player.

If magicka had a melee ranged weapon I wouldn't be complaining at all.

MotownMurder

Noxavian wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

The fact that the spammable is meele is the best thing about the whole vampire rework, no more stupid minimum traveltimes just instant damage.

How, exactly? Using a staff and being in melee range is not good for magicka DPS users. Thus why their weapon is a staff.

It's going to feel so bad when the only way to do damage with vampire abilities is to be up in their face when you're a squishy light armor wearing staff using player.

If magicka had a melee ranged weapon I wouldn't be complaining at all.

You're forgetting the fact that if you're using the vampire powers, you probably have access to the Undeath passive that's been considerably buffed.

Vevvev

MotownMurder wrote: »

You're forgetting the fact that if you're using the vampire powers, you probably have access to the Undeath passive that's been considerably buffed.

But then they got rid of any form of gap closer for the vampires. Anyone can outrun illusive mist and vampiric drain isn't a very good damaging ability. Now if someone used a weapon or class gap closer then that gap closer now costs more than it would have if they were not a vampire.

I know you've mentioned the undeath passive but lets also take into account the fact that light armor has some of the worst physical defense ratings in the game, which is what the vast majority of vampire damage dealers are going to be wearing. Melee for mages isn't ideal in most situations due to the fact every single melee weapon in the game deals physical, poison, or disease damage which is mitigated by physical resistance.

And if we want to delve into lore vampires prefer ranged combat over melee combat since they know a violent end is how they're going to die. The reason they use magic is so they can blast you to pieces before you become a true threat to their existence.

BohnT2

Noxavian wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

The fact that the spammable is meele is the best thing about the whole vampire rework, no more stupid minimum traveltimes just instant damage.

How, exactly? Using a staff and being in melee range is not good for magicka DPS users. Thus why their weapon is a staff.

It's going to feel so bad when the only way to do damage with vampire abilities is to be up in their face when you're a squishy light armor wearing staff using player.

If magicka had a melee ranged weapon I wouldn't be complaining at all.

unless you're zerging or attacking people from the top of a keep, you will always have people right on you, maybe a sorc can kite but you won't be able to keep every enemy outside of meele range.
and as soon as someone is in meele range, every ranged ability comes at a huge disadvantage of having a minimum travel time even if the enemy is on you.
During this minimum travel time your enemy has way more time (combat wise speaking) to react and avoid your skills.
People starting to play defensive in terms of dodging are way harder to kill for someone with a ranged skill rather than a meele skill.

Also you don't have to be squishy on a magicka char even when running light armor and that is if it happens a build issue only

Noxavian

BohnT2 wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

The fact that the spammable is meele is the best thing about the whole vampire rework, no more stupid minimum traveltimes just instant damage.

How, exactly? Using a staff and being in melee range is not good for magicka DPS users. Thus why their weapon is a staff.

It's going to feel so bad when the only way to do damage with vampire abilities is to be up in their face when you're a squishy light armor wearing staff using player.

If magicka had a melee ranged weapon I wouldn't be complaining at all.

unless you're zerging or attacking people from the top of a keep, you will always have people right on you, maybe a sorc can kite but you won't be able to keep every enemy outside of meele range.
and as soon as someone is in meele range, every ranged ability comes at a huge disadvantage of having a minimum travel time even if the enemy is on you.
During this minimum travel time your enemy has way more time (combat wise speaking) to react and avoid your skills.
People starting to play defensive in terms of dodging are way harder to kill for someone with a ranged skill rather than a meele skill.

Also you don't have to be squishy on a magicka char even when running light armor and that is if it happens a build issue only

but what about for PvE? Being up close and personal in cloth armor as a PvE player isn't going to end well. Im mainly talking from a PvE perspective, not a pvp one.

TheSeraphim

BohnT2 wrote: »

Also you don't have to be squishy on a magicka char even when running light armor and that is if it happens a build issue only

Considering Magicka shields are going to cost 20% extra for a stage 4 you will be at a disadvantage. Being able to spam a shield is better then taking reduced damage when you are in execute range.

Also with the new sets Light armor wearers will be effectively naked.

BohnT2

Noxavian wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

The fact that the spammable is meele is the best thing about the whole vampire rework, no more stupid minimum traveltimes just instant damage.

How, exactly? Using a staff and being in melee range is not good for magicka DPS users. Thus why their weapon is a staff.

It's going to feel so bad when the only way to do damage with vampire abilities is to be up in their face when you're a squishy light armor wearing staff using player.

If magicka had a melee ranged weapon I wouldn't be complaining at all.

unless you're zerging or attacking people from the top of a keep, you will always have people right on you, maybe a sorc can kite but you won't be able to keep every enemy outside of meele range.
and as soon as someone is in meele range, every ranged ability comes at a huge disadvantage of having a minimum travel time even if the enemy is on you.
During this minimum travel time your enemy has way more time (combat wise speaking) to react and avoid your skills.
People starting to play defensive in terms of dodging are way harder to kill for someone with a ranged skill rather than a meele skill.

Also you don't have to be squishy on a magicka char even when running light armor and that is if it happens a build issue only

but what about for PvE? Being up close and personal in cloth armor as a PvE player isn't going to end well. Im mainly talking from a PvE perspective, not a pvp one.

Yes and from a PvE perspective this ability deals a lot more damage than other spammables, meaning of you make it ranged the skill will be:
Worse in pvp
Weaker
More expensive

Just to be able to use it from range, which will then probably make other spammables better again, right now it has its own comfortable niche and you want to take it out of this position to make it worse

ESO_Nightingale

no, it should be melee range. it offers so many benefits that are quite nice and making it ranged would take away from that. force pulse and elemental weapon are already great ranged spammables.

Iskiab

The thing I think you guys are missing is vampire abilities cost 40% less at stage 4. They’re already not too expensive, if you use a lot of vampire skills you won’t need a lot of recovery allowing you to use non-vampire skills.

At least that’s how it looked when I was looking at it. A 40% cost reduction at stage 4 on top of all the other cost reductions like light armour will be doable.

BaiterOfZergs

It looks like the rework is meant to get players to play vamps as a “class” rather than for just getting a passive or using one skill.

So it makes sense that it’s melee , especially looking at the other skills. Besides that there’s multiple melee magic builds already in the game.

wheem_ESO

It either needs a longer range option (even if that means 22m or something, instead of the typical 28), or Vampire needs to also provide more reliable ways for Magicka builds to get - and stay - in melee range of their target. There are reasons that Mag DK have a passive snare, spammable roots, chains, and a gap closing ultimate.

My Magicka Necromancer has a slow and unreliable snare/root ability, which is also quite expensive even before factoring in the cost increase from Vampirism. I've seen one decent-or-better player on a Magicka Necromancer that actually utilized the skill in BGs, and he was a dedicated healer/support build who apparently no longer plays.

Being a melee player on a Stamina build is totally fine outside of pretty much any situation other than absurdly laggy zerging in Cyrodiil. The same cannot be said for Magicka builds, though. The only ones who are really capable of performing well on a melee setup are the ones who have the necessary class-based tools. If Vampirism seeks to change that dynamic, it needs to provide all of the necessary tools, not simply throw in a 5m spammable and call it good.

Noxavian

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

It looks like the rework is meant to get players to play vamps as a “class” rather than for just getting a passive or using one skill.

So it makes sense that it’s melee , especially looking at the other skills. Besides that there’s multiple melee magic builds already in the game.

I didn't know you had access to melee magicka weapons. Do explain how?

BaiterOfZergs

Noxavian wrote: »

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

It looks like the rework is meant to get players to play vamps as a “class” rather than for just getting a passive or using one skill.

So it makes sense that it’s melee , especially looking at the other skills. Besides that there’s multiple melee magic builds already in the game.

I didn't know you had access to melee magicka weapons. Do explain how?

Said builds not weapons. For example magplars went a long time without slotting a gap closer at all and did fine.

wheem_ESO

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

It looks like the rework is meant to get players to play vamps as a “class” rather than for just getting a passive or using one skill.

So it makes sense that it’s melee , especially looking at the other skills. Besides that there’s multiple melee magic builds already in the game.

I didn't know you had access to melee magicka weapons. Do explain how?

Said builds not weapons. For example magplars went a long time without slotting a gap closer at all and did fine.

And look at the other tools they had access to, which allowed their melee-magicka setup to actually function.
1) Ranged snare that could either hit multiple targets or last for 9 seconds (now 4 seconds, of course).
2) A fantastic cleanse (which often functions as snare/root removal) that also provided a snare in a huge AOE with a good duration.
3) Extremely potent snare attached to the highest damage magicka-based spammable in the game.
4) Good sustain + armor buff from the class rune, which aids in reducing both resource expenditure and GCDs required.
5) Superb burst damage, which can help reduce the amount of time one is required to actually spend glued to a target.

Magicka Templar hasn't always been some super-OP "top of the food chain" build or anything, but they at least had access to tools that help them actually function as a melee build. Not every Magicka class is capable of that, which was the point of my previous post.

BaiterOfZergs

wheem_ESO wrote: »

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

It looks like the rework is meant to get players to play vamps as a “class” rather than for just getting a passive or using one skill.

So it makes sense that it’s melee , especially looking at the other skills. Besides that there’s multiple melee magic builds already in the game.

I didn't know you had access to melee magicka weapons. Do explain how?

Said builds not weapons. For example magplars went a long time without slotting a gap closer at all and did fine.

And look at the other tools they had access to, which allowed their melee-magicka setup to actually function.
1) Ranged snare that could either hit multiple targets or last for 9 seconds (now 4 seconds, of course).
2) A fantastic cleanse (which often functions as snare/root removal) that also provided a snare in a huge AOE with a good duration.
3) Extremely potent snare attached to the highest damage magicka-based spammable in the game.
4) Good sustain + armor buff from the class rune, which aids in reducing both resource expenditure and GCDs required.
5) Superb burst damage, which can help reduce the amount of time one is required to actually spend glued to a target.

Magicka Templar hasn't always been some super-OP "top of the food chain" build or anything, but they at least had access to tools that help them actually function as a melee build. Not every Magicka class is capable of that, which was the point of my previous post.

Every magic build isn’t melee, so every magic spec shouldn’t be able to. You also still have access to class skills as a vamp , those suited for melee will play melee.

We could argue that there should be ranged morphs and stamina should be considered too but that’s not what zos has in mind.

Kolzki

Can we get an addon for nightblades that renames the vamp spammable to concealed weapon? I want to pretend that we finally got the class melee spammable that we always wanted.

Deathlord92

Noxavian wrote: »

Is anyone else a bit worried that with this rework there isn't really a viable ranged DPS ability for vampires? They completely gutted the damage of drain in favor for it restoring a crap ton of HP, but why is Eviscerate a melee focused ability when most magicka characters use staves....?

Proposal: Eviscerate should get 2 morphs. 1 morph should be melee (and possibly converted to stamina, idk. I know there's a crowd for that though. Since it'd just be a claw slash.) And then the other morph should make it ranged. Not too sure what they'd have to change the ability to, but I kinda picture it working similar to that one Nightblade ability that gets turned into a throwing dagger or stab attack.

It just feels very wack that a magicka subclass (vampire) has no viable long range abilities? Seems a little weird.

Completely agree with you nice to see someone thinking about stamina and mag builds 👍