Reconsider Nerfing vAS Staff to Oblivion

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Congrats, ZOS. You just made arguably the coolest and most difficult weapon to acquire in this game totally useless. The nerf to the Asylum staff is completely uncalled for. The weapon is now decon material. It wasnt OP in PVP, it certainly wasnt BIS on every mag build, but had a cool and unique bonus that had the potential to be very powerful. Is this more pandering to casuals? Because it is getting really old. Is this just blanket homogenization of items by people that dont understand how the game works? This weapon has done just fine in game for years. I dont ever recall a rage thread on the forums about this staff.

So not only do we have to regrind VMA and VDSA to get back the one piece bonus that was already taken from us in some effort to bring perfected weapons in line, we also get to say goodbye to the one perfected weapon in the game already that was actually worth something. The one weapon that many of us spent almost as much time, if not more time grinding, than the VMA weapons. Can you guys get anything right when it comes to balance? Do you not care at all about the time spent by your players to get items in your game?

ZOS would do better to buff the non-perfected version than to make the perfected version useless. This is the last time I buy a chapter before the PTS.

MLGProPlayer

I heard they are planning a super perfected version for next year's chapter. It'll have the same stats as the one they just nerfed and you will have the privilege of re-farming it.

Nairinhe

I imagine some players don't even look human anymore because every bad change is a "slap in the face".
That's not a slap, that's a change you don't like and, hopefully, can explain why (yep, you should explain even if it's obvious to you). So go and give devs some nice constructive explanation why they shouldn't do stuff they intended to do, instead of being all hurt

proteinexe

Nairinhe wrote: »

I imagine some players don't even look human anymore because every bad change is a "slap in the face".
That's not a slap, that's a change you don't like and, hopefully, can explain why (yep, you should explain even if it's obvious to you). So go and give devs some nice constructive explanation why they shouldn't do stuff they intended to do, instead of being all hurt

I agree. It's ironic, you say 'Is this just blanket homogenization of items by people that dont understand how the game works?' when you're giving a blanket statement to ZoS about being slapped in the face as if you speak for the whole community? Personally I like the changes and I think they did a good job with the majority of the changes. Looking forward to Greymoor!

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Nairinhe wrote: »

I imagine some players don't even look human anymore because every bad change is a "slap in the face".
That's not a slap, that's a change you don't like and, hopefully, can explain why (yep, you should explain even if it's obvious to you). So go and give devs some nice constructive explanation why they shouldn't do stuff they intended to do, instead of being all hurt

Did you read what I said? It was a difficult to obtain weapon that many people spent a long time trying to acquire. They didnt make some arbitrary change I disagree with, they nerfed it into uselessness. It is a slap in the face because it feels as if ZOS doesn't give a flying you know what about the time we have devoted to acquiring certain gear. It is compounded by the nonsense they are doing with VMA and VDSA weapons at the same time, because both are a symptom of the same issue.

Call it a slap in the face, call it the proverbial middle finger, call it flat out disrespectful, i dont really care, but in any event, it is upsetting.

proteinexe

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Call it a slap in the face, call it the proverbial middle finger, call it flat out disrespectful, i dont really care, but in any event, it is upsetting.

I call it a change you don't like : )

Oreyn_Bearclaw

proteinexe wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

I imagine some players don't even look human anymore because every bad change is a "slap in the face".
That's not a slap, that's a change you don't like and, hopefully, can explain why (yep, you should explain even if it's obvious to you). So go and give devs some nice constructive explanation why they shouldn't do stuff they intended to do, instead of being all hurt

I agree. It's ironic, you say 'Is this just blanket homogenization of items by people that dont understand how the game works?' when you're giving a blanket statement to ZoS about being slapped in the face as if you speak for the whole community? Personally I like the changes and I think they did a good job with the majority of the changes. Looking forward to Greymoor!

Actually, blanket homogenization by people that dont understand is at least a plausible explanation. They basically took all perfected weapons and rounded them down to their non perfect versions across the board, and added in some stats. That's a homogeneous approach to balance by definition. And either, they intended to nerf certain weapons into the realm of uselessness, or possibly, they failed to understand the mechanics of how some of these weapon functions.

Rake

Wonder will we be able to pay to play certain patch. Cause forcing these changes on everyone is just rubbish.

Nairinhe

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

I imagine some players don't even look human anymore because every bad change is a "slap in the face".
That's not a slap, that's a change you don't like and, hopefully, can explain why (yep, you should explain even if it's obvious to you). So go and give devs some nice constructive explanation why they shouldn't do stuff they intended to do, instead of being all hurt

Did you read what I said? It was a difficult to obtain weapon that many people spent a long time trying to acquire. They didnt make some arbitrary change I disagree with, they nerfed it into uselessness. It is a slap in the face because it feels as if ZOS doesn't give a flying you know what about the time we have devoted to acquiring certain gear. It is compounded by the nonsense they are doing with VMA and VDSA weapons at the same time, because both are a symptom of the same issue.

Call it a slap in the face, call it the proverbial middle finger, call it flat out disrespectful, i dont really care, but in any event, it is upsetting.

You still haven't given them (not me) those crunchy numbers and stats showing why it's useless now.
I'm not arguing that change looks bad (never played mag characters, but had a quick look at changed sets).
I'm not arguing that it's upsetting.
I'm trying to say that giving constructive feedback has, however small, a chance to have changes adjusted, while any kind of purely emotional response - hasn't.

Edit: typos, it's so late that it's early here

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Nairinhe wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

I imagine some players don't even look human anymore because every bad change is a "slap in the face".
That's not a slap, that's a change you don't like and, hopefully, can explain why (yep, you should explain even if it's obvious to you). So go and give devs some nice constructive explanation why they shouldn't do stuff they intended to do, instead of being all hurt

Did you read what I said? It was a difficult to obtain weapon that many people spent a long time trying to acquire. They didnt make some arbitrary change I disagree with, they nerfed it into uselessness. It is a slap in the face because it feels as if ZOS doesn't give a flying you know what about the time we have devoted to acquiring certain gear. It is compounded by the nonsense they are doing with VMA and VDSA weapons at the same time, because both are a symptom of the same issue.

Call it a slap in the face, call it the proverbial middle finger, call it flat out disrespectful, i dont really care, but in any event, it is upsetting.

You still haven't given them (not me) those crunchy numbers and stats showing why it's useless now.
I'm not arguing that change i
looks bad (never played mag characters, but had a quick look at changed sets).
I'm not arguing that it's upsetting.
I'm trying to say that giving constructive feedback has, however small, a chance to have changes adjusted, while any kind of purely emotional response - hasn't.

The mechanics of the asylum staff are pretty straight forward. Like all arena weapons, they are tied to the use of a single weapon skill.

The Asylum destruction staff is tied to the Destro staff skill, Force Pulse/Crushing Shock. The way the mechanic works on the normal version of the staff is that every third cast of the skill will apply the burning, chilled, and concussed status effects to your target. The way the perfected version works is that they apply every second cast of the skill.

What they have done on PTS to this and every other perfected arena weapon is to change the perfected bonus to the non perfected bonus, and then add in approx 100 weapon/spell damage. (homogeneous approach to balance).

Well there is no secret as to how any of this works. The Non perfect version of this staff has been in the game for years. It simply isnt worth using. Practically speaking, it means either dropping a monster set or a 4th and 5th piece set bonus in order to slot it. The non-perfect version simply doesn't merit a slot on any competitive build, because you will get more damage from running an extra 5 piece set.

The perfect version, however, did merit a slot on certain builds. By reducing the proc conditions to only two casts, it made the trade offs to slot it viable. Now that they have increased the proc conditions by 50%, it will simply no longer be worth a slot. This is not a question about taking the staff in some new direction. This is a damage weapon and they drastically lowered the damage. It amounts to a nerf that is so big, that it will no longer see any use in competitive end game content. It is now a dead item.

If this was a random world drop or some crafted set, I honestly wouldnt care as much. If this went out of use because there was something newer and better, well that's the nature of MMOs. I get it. But these arena weapons are tough to acquire. Many of us spent months in VAS+2 in order to successfully farm it it. We are now being told that effort was in vain.

Nairinhe

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

I imagine some players don't even look human anymore because every bad change is a "slap in the face".
That's not a slap, that's a change you don't like and, hopefully, can explain why (yep, you should explain even if it's obvious to you). So go and give devs some nice constructive explanation why they shouldn't do stuff they intended to do, instead of being all hurt

Did you read what I said? It was a difficult to obtain weapon that many people spent a long time trying to acquire. They didnt make some arbitrary change I disagree with, they nerfed it into uselessness. It is a slap in the face because it feels as if ZOS doesn't give a flying you know what about the time we have devoted to acquiring certain gear. It is compounded by the nonsense they are doing with VMA and VDSA weapons at the same time, because both are a symptom of the same issue.

Call it a slap in the face, call it the proverbial middle finger, call it flat out disrespectful, i dont really care, but in any event, it is upsetting.

You still haven't given them (not me) those crunchy numbers and stats showing why it's useless now.
I'm not arguing that change i
looks bad (never played mag characters, but had a quick look at changed sets).
I'm not arguing that it's upsetting.
I'm trying to say that giving constructive feedback has, however small, a chance to have changes adjusted, while any kind of purely emotional response - hasn't.

The mechanics of the asylum staff are pretty straight forward. Like all arena weapons, they are tied to the use of a single weapon skill.

The Asylum destruction staff is tied to the Destro staff skill, Force Pulse/Crushing Shock. The way the mechanic works on the normal version of the staff is that every third cast of the skill will apply the burning, chilled, and concussed status effects to your target. The way the perfected version works is that they apply every second cast of the skill.

What they have done on PTS to this and every other perfected arena weapon is to change the perfected bonus to the non perfected bonus, and then add in approx 100 weapon/spell damage. (homogeneous approach to balance).

Well there is no secret as to how any of this works. The Non perfect version of this staff has been in the game for years. It simply isnt worth using. Practically speaking, it means either dropping a monster set or a 4th and 5th piece set bonus in order to slot it. The non-perfect version simply doesn't merit a slot on any competitive build, because you will get more damage from running an extra 5 piece set.

The perfect version, however, did merit a slot on certain builds. By reducing the proc conditions to only two casts, it made the trade offs to slot it viable. Now that they have increased the proc conditions by 50%, it will simply no longer be worth a slot. This is not a question about taking the staff in some new direction. This is a damage weapon and they drastically lowered the damage. It amounts to a nerf that is so big, that it will no longer see any use in competitive end game content. It is now a dead item.

If this was a random world drop or some crafted set, I honestly wouldnt care as much. If this went out of use because there was something newer and better, well that's the nature of MMOs. I get it. But these arena weapons are tough to acquire. Many of us spent months in VAS+2 in order to successfully farm it it. We are now being told that effort was in vain.

That's very clear explanation, thank you!
Let's hope we'll get some more feedback like this.

Sometimes it feels like devs just get bare numbers and try to get them all same, ignoring sets' mechanics and context of these numbers.

Elsonso

Nairinhe wrote: »

Sometimes it feels like devs just get bare numbers and try to get them all same, ignoring sets' mechanics and context of these numbers.

The spreadsheet does not care how much time you spent getting your gear. All it sees is that your gear is wrong.

MartiniDaniels

They should visit some courses "how to motivate players in MMORPG".
Because nothing is worse then when your build goes to trash can, again and again.. Looking at all those golden transmuted gear in chests... I have zero interest to farm something new... most probably I will have chance to play that new build only week or 2 before it will be nerfed to the ground.
And given that perfected asylum inferno was probably most unique weapon in entire game.. gutting it like this is just BM.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

They should visit some courses "how to motivate players in MMORPG".
Because nothing is worse then when your build goes to trash can, again and again.. Looking at all those golden transmuted gear in chests... I have zero interest to farm something new... most probably I will have chance to play that new build only week or 2 before it will be nerfed to the ground.
And given that perfected asylum inferno was probably most unique weapon in entire game.. gutting it like this is just BM.

So after wrapping my head around the fact that I would have to regrind VMA, I recently decided to get my sorc up to scratch for farming. Made some willpower jewelry gold and transmuted it, of course the asylum staff was part of the plan. Bet that jewelry never gets used now. Not even on my top ten list of reasons I am upset about this, but it was certainly a waste of 150 transmute stones and close to a million in mats. Feels AWESOME!!!

The_Auror

There is zero reason to refarm vMA destros if your raid group coordinates penetration, you'll only overpen on back bar. The new bow looks decent though.

As for the topic, the obvious solution that would have "raised the floor" was to change the normal vAS staff to every second cast and add the stat line to the perfected one. Both versions are worthless now.

Kadoin

You don't get it, it needs a nerf BECAUSE MAG...

SidraWillowsky

The_Auror wrote: »

There is zero reason to refarm vMA destros if your raid group coordinates penetration, you'll only overpen on back bar. The new bow looks decent though.

As for the topic, the obvious solution that would have "raised the floor" was to change the normal vAS staff to every second cast and add the stat line to the perfected one. Both versions are worthless now.

Yeah, the pen is going to help the more casual players (myself included) who aren't usually part of super highly-coordinated, score-pushing raid groups. I feel like it would make more sense to add the pen bonus to the imperfect version and increase the LA/HA damage of the perfected but add no pen. The perfected version of the staff added quite a bit of DPS (2k) when I parses self-buffed on a six mil dummy, but didn't increase my DPS at all on the trial dummy.

shaielzafine

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I heard they are planning a super perfected version for next year's chapter. It'll have the same stats as the one they just nerfed and you will have the privilege of re-farming it.

It's sad but probably true. They're not creative enough to go make enough new content so they're making us re-farm everything. What's next? Maybe they'll increase cp cap or something. I'm so sad they're nerfing the perfected vAS destro out of the blue. How dumb, nobody was complaining about it. Afaik it was only BiS for magdk and not OP in PvP.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

shaielzafine wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I heard they are planning a super perfected version for next year's chapter. It'll have the same stats as the one they just nerfed and you will have the privilege of re-farming it.

It's sad but probably true. They're not creative enough to go make enough new content so they're making us re-farm everything. What's next? Maybe they'll increase cp cap or something. I'm so sad they're nerfing the perfected vAS destro out of the blue. How dumb, nobody was complaining about it. Afaik it was only BiS for magdk and not OP in PvP.

I am not even sure it was really used all that much in PVP. It was BIS for mag DK, and it was best in slot for trash pulls in VMA. Most score pushers in VMA dont even use it on boss fights, they swap to a 5 piece like Mech Acuity or Spell strat. This was also the only thing allowing mag to keep up with stam Nightblade score pushing in the arena. Not that anybody pushes scores like they did a year ago...

That is honestly about it. mDK finally gets back to a spot where it is viable DPS, and bam it's gone. Here is the kicker. Yes it's early on PTS, but looks like we are back to a mageblade meta. Now I dont personally give 2 you know whats about which class is meta on any given patch, i have and play them all. But we have been in the mageblade meta before. It is the most difficult rotation in the game (maybe stamblade is a bit tougher, but its basically the same idea). I will dust mine off and play it, but if the skill gap is something they are interested in reducing, well mission failed.

Sanguinor2

Yeah I really want them to revisit this one too. I expected some sort of nerf to it or mdk tho because we cant have mdk be the top dps in pve.

iCaliban

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Yeah I really want them to revisit this one too. I expected some sort of nerf to it or mdk tho because we cant have mdk be the top dps in pve.

Why? Whats wrong with mag dk being good at pve dps?

Sanguinor2

iCaliban wrote: »

Why? Whats wrong with mag dk being good at pve dps?

Nothing for me. Others took issue, but Im mainly joking About dks never being allowed to be top again after the dk Vamp emp days.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

iCaliban wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Yeah I really want them to revisit this one too. I expected some sort of nerf to it or mdk tho because we cant have mdk be the top dps in pve.

Why? Whats wrong with mag dk being good at pve dps?

If the game were really healthy, we would admittedly see the meta cycle from class to class a bit with each patch. That said, all classes should be viable for score pushing. mDK needs the staff, other classes dont. Looks like NB is the only class with enough built in sustain and self healing to make Vamp DPS viable with the health/cost passive in the new skill line. And at the moment, its really strong. I dont think there has ever been as much forum salt as there was when 8 mageblades were the meta. Yes, we have had patches with 8 sorc and 8 DK metas, but the reality is, those classes are much easier to play for most people.

Again, I am not personally tied to a class. I have done pretty serious trial progression at one time or another on every class (save Warden). I can play dynamic mageblade just fine, but others are going to rage. Sorry bit off topic.

Amunari

Is it just me or did the op just say

"it was not op"
"It had the potential to be very powerful".

Do you guys even think about what you say?

As for catering to casuals as a game developer i can tell you the only way this will not be the case is one of two situations. 1. the developers / management of the game in question are complete idiots trying to tank not only their project, but also their company or 2) you become the mass majority because the casuals make up 85% of the population of a game like eso.

So yes, we, the developers(of what ever game we work on) cater to casuals, because its not business suicide or deathblow killing the game to do so.

Sanguinor2

Amunari wrote: »

Is it just me or did the op just say

"it was not op"
"It had the potential to be very powerful".

Do you guys even think about what you say?

As for catering to casuals as a game developer i can tell you the only way this will not be the case is one of two situations. 1. the developers / management of the game in question are complete idiots trying to tank not only their project, but also their company or 2) you become the mass majority because the casuals make up 85% of the population of a game like eso.

So yes, we, the developers(of what ever game we work on) cater to casuals, because its not business suicide or deathblow killing the game to do so.

It wasnt OP. It was meta on one (1) class. If it was OP more classes wouldve used it.
This also isnt Catering to anyone, its just destroying a set completely.

Also powerful doesnt equal op. Isnt something Feeling powerful actually the Goal when you design something? Or is designing something to be underwhelimg the Goal? If so what would the reason for that be? Why would you design something underwhelming which next to no one cares About? Feels like wasted time to me.

zvavi

Amunari wrote: »

Is it just me or did the op just say

"it was not op"
"It had the potential to be very powerful".

Do you guys even think about what you say?

As for catering to casuals as a game developer i can tell you the only way this will not be the case is one of two situations. 1. the developers / management of the game in question are complete idiots trying to tank not only their project, but also their company or 2) you become the mass majority because the casuals make up 85% of the population of a game like eso.

So yes, we, the developers(of what ever game we work on) cater to casuals, because its not business suicide or deathblow killing the game to do so.

There is difference between catering to casuals, and destroying progression and never rewarding your more experienced players. Thing is, while in the short term focusing on just catering to casuals is the way, on the long term, if your game doesn't rewards those who get better at it, it will lose customers.

iCaliban

Amunari wrote: »

Is it just me or did the op just say

"it was not op"
"It had the potential to be very powerful".

Do you guys even think about what you say?

As for catering to casuals as a game developer i can tell you the only way this will not be the case is one of two situations. 1. the developers / management of the game in question are complete idiots trying to tank not only their project, but also their company or 2) you become the mass majority because the casuals make up 85% of the population of a game like eso.

So yes, we, the developers(of what ever game we work on) cater to casuals, because its not business suicide or deathblow killing the game to do so.

When casuals decide hey i like this game and community and want to buy stuff, who do you think builds that community? Who teaches them dungeon or pvp mechanics. Who builds the addons or runs the guilds?

Veteran players are the foundation that helps retain new players.

Also nerfing this weapon does nothing for casual players but remove something they could look forward to

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Amunari wrote: »

Is it just me or did the op just say

"it was not op"
"It had the potential to be very powerful".

Do you guys even think about what you say?

As for catering to casuals as a game developer i can tell you the only way this will not be the case is one of two situations. 1. the developers / management of the game in question are complete idiots trying to tank not only their project, but also their company or 2) you become the mass majority because the casuals make up 85% of the population of a game like eso.

So yes, we, the developers(of what ever game we work on) cater to casuals, because its not business suicide or deathblow killing the game to do so.

Plenty of things in this game can be described as very powerful in certain situations. That's how it should work. There is a difference between that on something being overpowered or out of line from a balance standpoint. I dont think the staff fit the later. It has existed for years in this game just fine.

And look i get it, you have to appease the masses. But if there is no incentive for pushing harder content, it's unhealthy for the game.

And here is the thing, the casual player doesnt notice the difference in these weapons anyways. It's not as if this change benefited the casual player at the expense of the more serious end game player. This had no effect on the casual player whatsoever. In fact, I advocated in my original post that they should buff the non perfect version to the perfected versions functionality, at least that way, both are useful. As it is now, both will be dead items.

Pr0Skygon

I'm confused af. Perfected vAS destro would still do what it does today, but instead of the 2nd force shock, now it's the 3rd to proc, and with 103 extra spell damage. That's barely a nerf, I'd call it more of a "rework". The level of overreacting in this thread is astounding.

WrathOfInnos

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

The_Auror wrote: »

There is zero reason to refarm vMA destros if your raid group coordinates penetration, you'll only overpen on back bar. The new bow looks decent though.

As for the topic, the obvious solution that would have "raised the floor" was to change the normal vAS staff to every second cast and add the stat line to the perfected one. Both versions are worthless now.

Yeah, the pen is going to help the more casual players (myself included) who aren't usually part of super highly-coordinated, score-pushing raid groups. I feel like it would make more sense to add the pen bonus to the imperfect version and increase the LA/HA damage of the perfected but add no pen. The perfected version of the staff added quite a bit of DPS (2k) when I parses self-buffed on a six mil dummy, but didn't increase my DPS at all on the trial dummy.

@SidraWillowsky I disagree about the Maelstrom Staff Spell Pen helping casual groups. Whether you are in a top group, beginner group, or just doing solo content, you always want to adjust your front bar Spell Pen to the 18.2k cap. Doing this does not rely on great group coordination and buff uptimes (Alkosh, Crusher, PotL etc.), it’s easily achievable with no external help (Major Breach + Light Armor + Lover Mundus or Spinners set + Spell Erosion). Regardless of how you hit that 18.2k, swapping your back bar and having 19.4k Spell Pen is not going to have any benefit, and building for 17k on front bar so that you end up with 18.2k on back is always going to be a DPS loss.

Vildebill

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

I'm confused af. Perfected vAS destro would still do what it does today, but instead of the 2nd force shock, now it's the 3rd to proc, and with 103 extra spell damage. That's barely a nerf, I'd call it more of a "rework". The level of overreacting in this thread is astounding.

What? You know there's been a version that already does just that except for the small amount of spell damage? It's called the imperfected one, it has existed in the game since clockwork city, has been tested thoroughly. And guess what, it's pretty bad. No one uses it. And now they're making the good version as bad as the imperfected one, hence making it useless.

Please explain to me how people are overreacting?