Update 26 combat preview... A HUGE step in the right direction

zDan

Finally ZOS have listened and are reducing healing via battle spirit! A must needed change along with reducing impen to counter the tank and healing meta. The change to BRP dw is also MUCH appreciated, however they should look at reducing % mitigation too.

Overall this is amazing and is a huge step in the right direction for pvp. GG ZOS.

daemonor

Where is the sauce? PTS forums?

AntonShan

zDan wrote: »

Finally ZOS have listened and are reducing healing via battle spirit! A must needed change along with reducing impen to counter the tank and healing meta. The change to BRP dw is also MUCH appreciated, however they should look at reducing % mitigation too.

Overall this is amazing and is a huge step in the right direction for pvp. GG ZOS.

I'm afraid this isn't that good change because healbots will still be able to output huge numbers while other players like myself might probably struggle with keeping themself alive.

Firstmep

zDan wrote: »

Finally ZOS have listened and are reducing healing via battle spirit! A must needed change along with reducing impen to counter the tank and healing meta. The change to BRP dw is also MUCH appreciated, however they should look at reducing % mitigation too.

Overall this is amazing and is a huge step in the right direction for pvp. GG ZOS.

I'm happy with the removing major protection from the set, but im afraid some specs(stamnecro hello), will just gain another % mitigation source, since they can already get major protection(although with lower uptime than with spectral cloak currently).
Id prefer them just to put a % increased damage on the cloak if you have hit anyone with it recently or whatever. The skill (blade cloak) already provides one of the strongest defensive buffs in the game, it doesnt need more damage reduction.
Also lowkey hoping they will look at some of the older dual wield sets to make them more viable in pvp again

BaiterOfZergs

Have to see the rest of the update to really give an opinion because for an example that 10 percent nerf to healing doesn’t do much for overhealing. It’ll only be felt by people who have poor heals or don’t heal themselves properly.

Not too sure about that change to impen either , if anything it might encourage people to build tankier like usual. But I’m also worried about them destroying transmutation for the benefit of this change, that or trans automatically becomes bis.

katorga

People won't even notice the 10% nerf to healing.

They will notice the nerf to impen. It will be super interesting to see how hard they hit impen. ZOS never "adjusts" anything.

Sets moving to from proc condition to cooldown timers? Does this mean being able to front load all procs at once if they are all off cooldown? This may bring back the proc meta.

Nerfing BRP Dual Wield....oh man, if they make it an unnamed damage reduction, that means you can stack even more.

Not upgrading existing VMA weapons will make people lose their minds. It would be a nice bone to throw if they tuned the drops to the class/build running VMA - magicka classes get magicka drops, stamina, stamina drops, etc.

olsborg

% Mitigation needs to be looked at hard(on skills like spiritmender). I dont agree that a blanket nerf across the board to healing is the right move, stamblades and stamsorcs already have bad healing, making that worse will be noticeable, but dragonknights and templars, warden and necromancer wont rly feel that at all since they are already overhealing as it is.

llElLoboll

Highly doubt the healing changes will affect group off healing, which is where the main issue is imo. All the 10% less will do is screw no cp and solo/small scalers. I'll wait till Monday to see the notes but I'm not very optimistic about the preview of changes so far.

katorga

llElLoboll wrote: »

Highly doubt the healing changes will affect group off healing, which is where the main issue is imo. All the 10% less will do is screw no cp and solo/small scalers. I'll wait till Monday to see the notes but I'm not very optimistic about the preview of changes so far.

It is going to be a great patch for support builds. It will make the more impactful than ever.

zDan

I agree that the changes are very minimal. But the fact that they are actually acknowledging the tank meta for once makes me look at this positively. They have plenty of time to tweak the numbers from PTS feedback, I doubt healing will stay at only 10% less.

As for % mitigation I strongly agree that this needs looked at. It is too easy to get multiple sources of it with very little drawbacks. Even with a major protection nerf, it would still be super strong which is why it should be strictly put on high costing ultimates.

I am excited from what i've seen but from past ZOS experience it can always go downhill, fast.

Jaxaxo

katorga wrote: »

People won't even notice the 10% nerf to healing.

Its not 10%, its 20% nerf to healing. Thats actually a lot. Maybe it will be good on cp, but in nocp everything except magsorcs gonne be nerfed quite hard

Iskiab

Some of the replies are pretty funny.

No, no, no. My healing was fine, it was everyone else’s healing that needed to be nerfed. OMG, my healing is being nerfed!

Just wait until the patch notes are up and adjust accordingly.

Solariken

Iskiab wrote: »

Some of the replies are pretty funny.

No, no, no. My healing was fine, it was everyone else’s healing that needed to be nerfed. OMG, my healing is being nerfed!

Just wait until the patch notes are up and adjust accordingly.

Self healing is fine. It's cross-healing and healbotting that needed nerfed.

L_Nici

Yes I do like that changes a lot. I play almost only full damage builds, but in the current meta full damage in reality is less damaging than playing tank mainly because you just can't kill anything and that is just stupid. The only way to win a 1v1 in PvP by now is fighting 20 minutes and more till the enemy gets tired and makes a mistake.

Just yesterday I saw a duell between a full damage Templar against a tanky warden, the warden had absolutely no damage but still won in the end just because he swapped to sword and board hold block or used shieldulti and healed up in one cast while the Templar exhausted its ressources to even get any damage. He won not because he had great damage, he just landed a single Onslaught with also almost no damage (I mean seriously if your Onslaught hits for only 5k on a not blocking enemy you seriously do something wrong), his bugs with also no damage, but the templar was so exhausted that he couldn't heal anymore and died to it. If Onslaught wouldn't have the mitigation it has that warden would never ever kill anything at all, while never getting killed.
If you win by waiting it out, you are just terrible in my opinion, you don't win because you have skill, you win because you can hold block endlessly, get carried by your sets or are awesome at pressing R.

geonsocal

the change to impenetrable is gonna be a real challenge to toons out there trying to fight below max cp...

I have a bunch of cp 400 something toons on one of my platform's servers...I'm already getting hit really hard at times because I'm lacking in champion points...

there's a bunch of damage mitigation you can build in to your character through the champion point system...

Alucardo

olsborg wrote: »

% Mitigation needs to be looked at hard(on skills like spiritmender). I dont agree that a blanket nerf across the board to healing is the right move, stamblades and stamsorcs already have bad healing, making that worse will be noticeable, but dragonknights and templars, warden and necromancer wont rly feel that at all since they are already overhealing as it is.

Gotta agree here. With the healing nerf I may's well just strip my stam sorc down, run into the battlefield and let them take me. And for those saying "but bruh, crit surge". Please. It's like what, a 3k heal, so halve that in PvP. If you're on no CP it's basically useless, and god forbid you're defiled. I've had more luck with Rally, because at least that burst heal will save my life. We have no real mitigation built in like other classes, we have nothing to boost healing. This is why blanket nerfs are not necessarily a good thing.
One thing I agree with OP on is looking at the mitigation. Personally I think we need some softcaps in place because it's getting out of hand. Healing isn't really the problem (except in ballgroups with lots of off-healing), it's all the damage mitigation.

Iskiab

Solariken wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Some of the replies are pretty funny.

No, no, no. My healing was fine, it was everyone else’s healing that needed to be nerfed. OMG, my healing is being nerfed!

Just wait until the patch notes are up and adjust accordingly.

Self healing is fine. It's cross-healing and healbotting that needed nerfed.

Self healing is more of an issue than cross healing by far. The change was likely a compromise because most players are solo and would whine like crazy.

Your average player in a experienced BG is healing themselves for about 500k+.

BaiterOfZergs

They’ve been touching mitigation since at least 2016 because that’s around the time everyone started getting tanky because of heavy and black rose. Since then there has been complaints about the tank meta , scalebreaker was probably the only patch without it.

If Zos continues to make the same type of nerfs nothing will change. Need to look at block , it automatically halves damage. Health is too high, protection is too accessible, resistance cap could be looked at and capping overall mitigation too.

Kartalin

I think a lot of people are upset or worried with only seeing a small fragment of changes. Let’s just be calm for the weekend so we can have a more hearty and enthusiastic panic on Monday.

caeliusstarbreaker

Instead of looking at skills and classes specifically we are just going to reduce all healing by 10%!!
Sounds like a “smart and well thought out approach.”
...

Lole

zDan wrote: »

Finally ZOS have listened and are reducing healing via battle spirit! A must needed change along with reducing impen to counter the tank and healing meta. The change to BRP dw is also MUCH appreciated, however they should look at reducing % mitigation too.

Overall this is amazing and is a huge step in the right direction for pvp. GG ZOS.

Nerfing impen is extremely stupid...impen is what helps dds to stay alive, when impen gets nerfed to much this game will become even more a Oneshot fiesta... just go in a bg without impen gear and see what happens lol.

Tankmeta needs to get fixed but they need to do it without making everyone more squishy-.-
Result = nerf the crap out of heavy armor in pvp

Oh and Bzw nerf healing from all stamina skills, that will fix a lot of the problems...there needs to be a drawback to play stamina, currently there is none while magicka has a drawback...

Tommy_The_Gun

Yes, almost all of the changes are good.

Except the vMA and vDA Perfected weapons that won't auto-upgrade, despite being obtained on veteran difficulty level. A huge slap in the face to pretty much all players that spend time & effort to learn how to play the game good enough to complete the hard & challenging content. And it seems it in not just my opinion, as pretty much every comment I see points this out. Have not yet seen any that say it is "good".

Dagoth_Rac

Did they reveal what the new "baseline crit resist" is? I think that is important. With less healing, you will be killed by less damage. So everyone will still need critical resistance and probably a lot of it. Will the baseline provide enough resist where you can consider other traits? It will be silly if everyone still has to wear impen gear in PvP to survive more than a few seconds.

katorga

Jaxaxo wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

People won't even notice the 10% nerf to healing.

Its not 10%, its 20% nerf to healing. Thats actually a lot. Maybe it will be good on cp, but in nocp everything except magsorcs gonne be nerfed quite hard

It is going from 50% to 60%, people won't notice the extra 10. You wouldn't notice that much if they did the same to damage.

$5 says people are still complaining about healing and tanky players after the patch. Every single pvp nerf is overcome through NUMBERS.

WrathOfInnos

katorga wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

People won't even notice the 10% nerf to healing.

Its not 10%, its 20% nerf to healing. Thats actually a lot. Maybe it will be good on cp, but in nocp everything except magsorcs gonne be nerfed quite hard

It is going from 50% to 60%, people won't notice the extra 10. You wouldn't notice that much if they did the same to damage.

$5 says people are still complaining about healing and tanky players after the patch. Every single pvp nerf is overcome through NUMBERS.

Heals will have 40% magnitude after patch, down from 50% currently. 40% / 50% = 80% of current healing or a 20% reduction.

If for example battle spirit went from 80% healing reduction to 90% you would say it changed 10%. The heal magnitude in that case would be 10% vs 20% so it halved.

I can’t comment on the effects of this on PvP balance, just clarifying what people mean by a 20% healing nerf (which is IMO the correct way to say this) even though the change is a difference of 10% (comparing 50% and 60%).

Xargas13

I'm all for countering tanks and healers, but I think it will be felt more by players like me, I run almost full impen, still working on my gear, two pieces left to get into impen, and I am not tanky, my healing isn't a huge deal also, since I die sometimes all the same, not feeling tanky at all in short. So it will hit more others then tanks. What I would like them to do in the next patch, is to deal with two second deaths, where a player delivers multiple attacks in a very, very short period of time, and no, it's not lag.

AMeanOne

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Did they reveal what the new "baseline crit resist" is? I think that is important. With less healing, you will be killed by less damage. So everyone will still need critical resistance and probably a lot of it. Will the baseline provide enough resist where you can consider other traits? It will be silly if everyone still has to wear impen gear in PvP to survive more than a few seconds.

This is what I've been wondering. It wouldn't surprise me at all for them to butcher impen and only give 1000 base crit resist. The patch notes will be a fun read

Lole

AMeanOne wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Did they reveal what the new "baseline crit resist" is? I think that is important. With less healing, you will be killed by less damage. So everyone will still need critical resistance and probably a lot of it. Will the baseline provide enough resist where you can consider other traits? It will be silly if everyone still has to wear impen gear in PvP to survive more than a few seconds.

This is what I've been wondering. It wouldn't surprise me at all for them to butcher impen and only give 1000 base crit resist. The patch notes will be a fun read

Impen is fine as it is, but Heavy armor needs to get demolished for pvp 😋
Edit: don’t forget to nerf stam healing thx

FirmamentOfStars

In my opinion the healing nerf is not the right way to do it and is the wrong side to tackle the tank meta.
First off the healing problem comes from cross healing in groups and zergs, where overhealing actually happens. But this battle spirit adjustement will not solve that. It will hurt every solo and small scale player, where cross healing from group members is far less. Additionally it will hit some classes more than others and does not take into account, that we have cp and no cp PvP content. Such an adjustement is not needed in no cp, where self healing isnt an issue at all. Just reduce healing received from others less than self healing and we would make a great step forward.

The Adjustements will most likely hit classes like magblade, magdk, magplar and stamnb. Magsorcs (the probably strongest magclass for overworld PvP) rely on shields and an overperforming matriarch heal. They mitigate damage reliably by streaking away and shielding, so they wont feel that healing nerf. Stamdens and stamdks already have great healing and making all their ticks heal for a bit less will not really make them worry. Stamnecro probably is the problem child again, since it has not only quite strong healing. Stamnecro has access to so many massive mitigation sources, it doesnt even really matter, if their healing is reduced. It would make much more sense to look at those passive mitigation than healing to solve the current tank meta.

Minalan

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

People won't even notice the 10% nerf to healing.

Its not 10%, its 20% nerf to healing. Thats actually a lot. Maybe it will be good on cp, but in nocp everything except magsorcs gonne be nerfed quite hard

It is going from 50% to 60%, people won't notice the extra 10. You wouldn't notice that much if they did the same to damage.

$5 says people are still complaining about healing and tanky players after the patch. Every single pvp nerf is overcome through NUMBERS.

Heals will have 40% magnitude after patch, down from 50% currently. 40% / 50% = 80% of current healing or a 20% reduction.

If for example battle spirit went from 80% healing reduction to 90% you would say it changed 10%. The heal magnitude in that case would be 10% vs 20% so it halved.

I can’t comment on the effects of this on PvP balance, just clarifying what people mean by a 20% healing nerf (which is IMO the correct way to say this) even though the change is a difference of 10% (comparing 50% and 60%).

This is correct, it reduces a 10K heal to only 8k. That's a pretty significant change, especially to
bigger, more expensive burst heals.

Ranger209

zDan wrote: »

I agree that the changes are very minimal. But the fact that they are actually acknowledging the tank meta for once makes me look at this positively. They have plenty of time to tweak the numbers from PTS feedback, I doubt healing will stay at only 10% less.

As for % mitigation I strongly agree that this needs looked at. It is too easy to get multiple sources of it with very little drawbacks. Even with a major protection nerf, it would still be super strong which is why it should be strictly put on high costing ultimates.

I am excited from what i've seen but from past ZOS experience it can always go downhill, fast.

I'm an advocate for capping mitigation at 80-85%