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Nightblades and "Clunkiness" in PvP.
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ZOS_ConnorGmodGreetings all,
After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for rule violations, mostly Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.
You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.0 -
GreenSoup2HoT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Retired player here, just wanted to mention why i quit eso as a regen based stamina nightblade.
It is true Stamina Nightblade feels clunky. Even more so if you play with a stamina regen based character.
I played 7 medium with 3k+ stamina regen.
The problem lies in that you get no stamina while sprinting anymore.
This change made all stamina regen users useless. You couldn't use youre stamina regen to you're advantage. You could sprint for 20meters, waste a bunch of stamina and not receive a bunch of stamina regen ticks... all while youre opponent can just gap close on you with magicka or less stamina with a gap closer then compared to sprinting.
I had two solutions for this problem of clunkiness.
Reduce the range of gap closers to 10m or less.
Or bring back stamina regen while sprinting.
No stamina regen while sprinting ruined this game for stamina users. That was their niche. Running around. Yet people with endless magicka can cast and cast and cast and catch you as long as youre in gap closer distance.
This game is still ruled my magicka regen and maximum stats.
My stamina nightblade presently utilizes 1500 magicka regen minimum just so i can cloak to get out of dodge (when it works) because sprinting around nets you so much loss on stamina regen theres no point to sprint at all in this game. Im not even going to mention all the counters to cloak.
This game was best pre-Imperial city.
No stamina regen inhibitors. (block/sprint/sneak/roll dodge)
Cloak could purge dots.
Mage Light toggle was amazing.
Sneak had a damage modifier bonus.
It was a stamina players paradise.
This is why i don't play this game. The developers instead of solving problems layered and layered over new ones. They had no vision. They just changed what people cried about and they did it in the worst way possible.
You can say the game is fine and dandy the way it is now. That doesn't change the fact that CORE gameplay mechanics were changed for the worse AND CORE CLASS IDENTITYS CHANGED for the worse patch after patch.
The only way i would come back to eso is if they reverted all these stupid changes.
Give Dragonknights unlimited wings back
give us stam regen while blocking/sprinting/sneaking back
give us cloak purge
give us no dodge roll costs and streak costs
give us old spear shards and repentance
There was so much good in the game until these changes ruined a lot of what made the game fun.
You can tackle costs and resource management in different ways. You can kill people with CC or draining there resources to 0. The gameplay back in the old days was and always will be more fun then it is now.
Edited by GreenSoup2HoT on March 1, 2021 1:47AMPS4 NA DC1 -
Ezorus✭✭✭Given how unreliable cloak is, it would be nice if it purged again.. and the damage from Stealth was good too.
Does anyone who ain't a NB even have a crouch button?2 -
Luckylancer✭✭✭✭✭xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »Luckylancer wrote: »[Quoted post was removed]
[snip]
Range problems have nothing to do with l2p, I cleary show you the disperity between the range of melee NB skills and other class melee skills. None of the other classes have to get as close as the nightblade while stuff like jabs and dizzy also applies a snare to the enemy to help with the range, not only that but DKs also have a very good passive snare and sorcs have access to minor expediton to close the range.
Also "recently" the position checks were moved to be done server-side which made the "target out of range" issue worse than ever.
Theres nothing you can do about magblade dodge? Im sorry what? They could make Swallow Soul undodgeable, they could remove the travel time and make it instant, they could reduce the travel time/increase travel speed. Thats atleast 3 suggestions they could do to adress the issue.
[snip]
[Edited to remove Baiting]
Dizzy have slow?
StamDK and jabs snares are upsides of the class. Stamsorcs' minor expedition too.
NBs have instant gap closer that other classes dont have. Sorcs have something very close but not exactly the same.
You got me wrong about magblades. They have nothing to do againts dodgers. Most of their skill set is dodgeable or projectile. They need a buff in any way, their power level is lower compared to other specs.
People complain about stamblade needs to up their game. They lack group utility but thats all. People who complain about magblade are right, magblade is weaker than other classes due to no burst heal and cant closing up kills.
1 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Extremely good post OP.
Expecially after they made every skill have x2 to-hit checks there is a lot of "out of range" stuff going on, specially with surprise attack and execute.
PC EU
PvP only4 -
Doczy✭✭✭Luckylancer wrote: »
NBs have instant gap closer that other classes dont have. Sorcs have something very close but not exactly the same.Luckylancer wrote: »[Quoted post was removed]
hello toppling charge gap closer via stun
i prefer 2h gap closer than our useless instant! lotus fan .Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on March 1, 2021 6:03PM2 -
xI_The_Owl_Ix✭✭✭✭✭Luckylancer wrote: »xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »Luckylancer wrote: »[Quoted post was removed]
[snip]
Range problems have nothing to do with l2p, I cleary show you the disperity between the range of melee NB skills and other class melee skills. None of the other classes have to get as close as the nightblade while stuff like jabs and dizzy also applies a snare to the enemy to help with the range, not only that but DKs also have a very good passive snare and sorcs have access to minor expediton to close the range.
Also "recently" the position checks were moved to be done server-side which made the "target out of range" issue worse than ever.
Theres nothing you can do about magblade dodge? Im sorry what? They could make Swallow Soul undodgeable, they could remove the travel time and make it instant, they could reduce the travel time/increase travel speed. Thats atleast 3 suggestions they could do to adress the issue.
[snip]
[Edited to remove Baiting]
Dizzy have slow?
StamDK and jabs snares are upsides of the class. Stamsorcs' minor expedition too.
NBs have instant gap closer that other classes dont have. Sorcs have something very close but not exactly the same.
You got me wrong about magblades. They have nothing to do againts dodgers. Most of their skill set is dodgeable or projectile. They need a buff in any way, their power level is lower compared to other specs.
People complain about stamblade needs to up their game. They lack group utility but thats all. People who complain about magblade are right, magblade is weaker than other classes due to no burst heal and cant closing up kills.
"Slam an enemy with an upward swing, dealing 1848 Physical Damage and setting them Off Balance for 7 seconds. Hitting an enemy that is already Off Balance stuns them for 2 seconds. Targets that are immune to Off Balance are snared by 40% for 2 seconds."
The "instant" gap closer NBs have isnt instant at all. I went more in depth about it in my other thread about Magblades. Ambush is clunky and weird to use just like almost all of the class toolkit, hence the title in the OP.
Magblades like Stamblades need to be fixed first and their clunkiness/buggy skills need to be adressed before any balance changes can be done.
Again this isnt a thread about buffing Stamblades or Nightblades in general, its a thread about why the whole NB class feels clunky and buggy and what can be done to adress that. Especially the current Shadowy Disguise and Surprise Attack/Concealed Weapon.Edited by xI_The_Owl_Ix on March 1, 2021 5:51PM7 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Luckylancer wrote: »
NBs have instant gap closer that other classes dont have. Sorcs have something very close but not exactly the same.Luckylancer wrote: »[Quoted post was removed]
hello toppling charge gap closer via stun
i prefer 2h gap closer than our useless instant! lotus fan .
Ambush is anything but instant.6 -
SHOW✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »Ambush is anything but instant.
Agreed.
Why does even the gap closer have a cast time on it LOL
The one "teleport" gap closer in the game is the slowest and clunkiest... wtf
it cancels itself most of the time cuz the target is out of range by the time it actually starts...
and if there is a pebble in the way it won't work at all (again on a "teleport" lol)
Meanwhile, I can use crit or Topple Charge to fly up to a 2nd floor window with the preposterousness of a "crouching tiger hidden dragon" movie lol
(If u don't know the reference, youtube it, it be silly)
7 -
xI_The_Owl_Ix✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »Ambush is anything but instant.
Agreed.
Why does even the gap closer have a cast time on it LOL
The one "teleport" gap closer in the game is the slowest and clunkiest... wtf
it cancels itself most of the time cuz the target is out of range by the time it actually starts...
and if there is a pebble in the way it won't work at all (again on a "teleport" lol)
Meanwhile, I can use crit or Topple Charge to fly up to a 2nd floor window with the preposterousness of a "crouching tiger hidden dragon" movie lol
(If u don't know the reference, youtube it, it be silly)
My guess is that they changed it because if you would ambush people right as they were going trough a keep door, it would teleport you inside with them. Which made the skill "broken" but super fun to use.0 -
Doczy✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »Luckylancer wrote: »
NBs have instant gap closer that other classes dont have. Sorcs have something very close but not exactly the same.Luckylancer wrote: »[Quoted post was removed]
hello toppling charge gap closer via stun
i prefer 2h gap closer than our useless instant! lotus fan .
Ambush is anything but instant.
yea its instant too
if you know what i mean. 0 -
SHOW✭✭✭xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »Ambush is anything but instant.
Agreed.
Why does even the gap closer have a cast time on it LOL
The one "teleport" gap closer in the game is the slowest and clunkiest... wtf
it cancels itself most of the time cuz the target is out of range by the time it actually starts...
and if there is a pebble in the way it won't work at all (again on a "teleport" lol)
Meanwhile, I can use crit or Topple Charge to fly up to a 2nd floor window with the preposterousness of a "crouching tiger hidden dragon" movie lol
(If u don't know the reference, youtube it, it be silly)
My guess is that they changed it because if you would ambush people right as they were going trough a keep door, it would teleport you inside with them. Which made the skill "broken" but super fun to use.
Yea I remember those days lol good times.
From a coding perspective, not sure why the cast time would help there, seems like an instant calculation would be more accurate... but I digress.
Back to the point, and as mentioned by the community many many times, these small clunky changes over time have really snowballed to the point where the class just isn't snappy, but clunky.
An entire kit of:
Single target + dodge able
should at least be snappy and clean (or something?!?)
especially when many other kits are:
AOE (multi target) + un dodge able
(u know who I'm talking about)
It's like, how are both of these kits even in the same game?
Edited by SHOW on March 1, 2021 9:11PM4 -
Pauwer✭✭✭✭✭This thread is actually op.
All i see on my nbs is "target is out of reach" even tho the skills does cast and resource is spent. Just does not actually hit anyone. The kind of skills that require a target.
And standing still, sieging enemies, still are able to dodge, dodge, dodge.
Ohhh how about trying to cast soul tether? Lmao. Yeh the animation happens, the char says "urgh" but the skill just does not go off.
Great stuff, fun. Great gameplay n all.5 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »Retired player here, just wanted to mention why i quit eso as a regen based stamina nightblade.
It is true Stamina Nightblade feels clunky. Even more so if you play with a stamina regen based character.
I played 7 medium with 3k+ stamina regen.
The problem lies in that you get no stamina while sprinting anymore.
This change made all stamina regen users useless. You couldn't use youre stamina regen to you're advantage. You could sprint for 20meters, waste a bunch of stamina and not receive a bunch of stamina regen ticks... all while youre opponent can just gap close on you with magicka or less stamina with a gap closer then compared to sprinting.
I had two solutions for this problem of clunkiness.
Reduce the range of gap closers to 10m or less.
Or bring back stamina regen while sprinting.
No stamina regen while sprinting ruined this game for stamina users. That was their niche. Running around. Yet people with endless magicka can cast and cast and cast and catch you as long as youre in gap closer distance.
This game is still ruled my magicka regen and maximum stats.
My stamina nightblade presently utilizes 1500 magicka regen minimum just so i can cloak to get out of dodge (when it works) because sprinting around nets you so much loss on stamina regen theres no point to sprint at all in this game. Im not even going to mention all the counters to cloak.
This game was best pre-Imperial city.
No stamina regen inhibitors. (block/sprint/sneak/roll dodge)
Cloak could purge dots.
Mage Light toggle was amazing.
Sneak had a damage modifier bonus.
It was a stamina players paradise.
This is why i don't play this game. The developers instead of solving problems layered and layered over new ones. They had no vision. They just changed what people cried about and they did it in the worst way possible.
You can say the game is fine and dandy the way it is now. That doesn't change the fact that CORE gameplay mechanics were changed for the worse AND CORE CLASS IDENTITYS CHANGED for the worse patch after patch.
The only way i would come back to eso is if they reverted all these stupid changes.
Give Dragonknights unlimited wings back
give us stam regen while blocking/sprinting/sneaking back
give us cloak purge
give us no dodge roll costs and streak costs
give us old spear shards and repentance
There was so much good in the game until these changes ruined a lot of what made the game fun.
You can tackle costs and resource management in different ways. You can kill people with CC or draining there resources to 0. The gameplay back in the old days was and always will be more fun then it is now.
I wont quibble with you about the glory days, but are you suggesting that mag has an edge in PVP currently? That is laughable. Stam is certainly the meta spec in PVP and has been for a while We are living in a "stamina players paradise". Stamblade spent a long time at the top of the food change, but of course, ZOS introduced 2 P2W classes, so stamblade is in third or 4th place at this point. Still a very capable 1vX class in the right hands.8 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »Retired player here, just wanted to mention why i quit eso as a regen based stamina nightblade.
It is true Stamina Nightblade feels clunky. Even more so if you play with a stamina regen based character.
I played 7 medium with 3k+ stamina regen.
The problem lies in that you get no stamina while sprinting anymore.
This change made all stamina regen users useless. You couldn't use youre stamina regen to you're advantage. You could sprint for 20meters, waste a bunch of stamina and not receive a bunch of stamina regen ticks... all while youre opponent can just gap close on you with magicka or less stamina with a gap closer then compared to sprinting.
I had two solutions for this problem of clunkiness.
Reduce the range of gap closers to 10m or less.
Or bring back stamina regen while sprinting.
No stamina regen while sprinting ruined this game for stamina users. That was their niche. Running around. Yet people with endless magicka can cast and cast and cast and catch you as long as youre in gap closer distance.
This game is still ruled my magicka regen and maximum stats.
My stamina nightblade presently utilizes 1500 magicka regen minimum just so i can cloak to get out of dodge (when it works) because sprinting around nets you so much loss on stamina regen theres no point to sprint at all in this game. Im not even going to mention all the counters to cloak.
This game was best pre-Imperial city.
No stamina regen inhibitors. (block/sprint/sneak/roll dodge)
Cloak could purge dots.
Mage Light toggle was amazing.
Sneak had a damage modifier bonus.
It was a stamina players paradise.
This is why i don't play this game. The developers instead of solving problems layered and layered over new ones. They had no vision. They just changed what people cried about and they did it in the worst way possible.
You can say the game is fine and dandy the way it is now. That doesn't change the fact that CORE gameplay mechanics were changed for the worse AND CORE CLASS IDENTITYS CHANGED for the worse patch after patch.
The only way i would come back to eso is if they reverted all these stupid changes.
Give Dragonknights unlimited wings back
give us stam regen while blocking/sprinting/sneaking back
give us cloak purge
give us no dodge roll costs and streak costs
give us old spear shards and repentance
There was so much good in the game until these changes ruined a lot of what made the game fun.
You can tackle costs and resource management in different ways. You can kill people with CC or draining there resources to 0. The gameplay back in the old days was and always will be more fun then it is now.
I wont quibble with you about the glory days, but are you suggesting that mag has an edge in PVP currently? That is laughable. Stam is certainly the meta spec in PVP and has been for a while We are living in a "stamina players paradise". Stamblade spent a long time at the top of the food change, but of course, ZOS introduced 2 P2W classes, so stamblade is in third or 4th place at this point. Still a very capable 1vX class in the right hands.
[snip] Magicka warden and magicka necro where anything but p2w upon their respective launches. Or is that because access to them is tied to a content purchase therefore any given period of time where they are "meta" in the game, they are by default p2w? Lol......
[Edited to remove Baiting]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on March 8, 2021 3:43PM1 -
Vermintide✭✭✭✭^ I don't know about classes, but it's certainly true you can slap Pale Order and Malacath on any character and suddenly have a much easier time in PVP. Those items are behind a paywall.
For NB, our self heal and opportunity cost when running damage sets is so abysmal, I am starting to wonder if paying up in order to get them is a necessity.1 -
sproattt✭✭✭Nightblade is dead, don’t waste your time unless you wanna snipe or bomb gameplay.
Coming from someone who’s played it for a long time. Long story, the class has got worse and worse over time but with the addition to cast times to its key damage abilities.. it basically put the class in a crap spot; even on the Siphoning Ult heal morph which got a cast time of 1/2s and a nerf to its ability to heal anyone around you. Now we are in the meta of 35k + HP, Hp regen / rapid regen stacking and ball group/spam purges. You run around the map looking for fights that aren’t there anymore, on Xbox EU it’s just a Zerg and snipe fest. The classes core abilities don’t function anymore due to the current state of the game. Nightblade got rooted and gutted a long time ago when time to kill was at its quickest. It has never truly came back to its former state, with Stam specs dominating PvP environments I doubt we will see a downfall of it anytime soon. Promotion of Necro/Warden as the go to classes for pvp, we can see why there the classes you can buy from the Frown store.
The games current performance has not improved since the class got cast times shackled to it, which was over a year ago.
P.s Blastbones is oP and needs nerf, Maj+Min Defile and tracks you/unblockable/dodgeable. Sort that out.Edited by sproattt on March 3, 2021 12:51AMStamblade Main.8 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »Retired player here, just wanted to mention why i quit eso as a regen based stamina nightblade.
It is true Stamina Nightblade feels clunky. Even more so if you play with a stamina regen based character.
I played 7 medium with 3k+ stamina regen.
The problem lies in that you get no stamina while sprinting anymore.
This change made all stamina regen users useless. You couldn't use youre stamina regen to you're advantage. You could sprint for 20meters, waste a bunch of stamina and not receive a bunch of stamina regen ticks... all while youre opponent can just gap close on you with magicka or less stamina with a gap closer then compared to sprinting.
I had two solutions for this problem of clunkiness.
Reduce the range of gap closers to 10m or less.
Or bring back stamina regen while sprinting.
No stamina regen while sprinting ruined this game for stamina users. That was their niche. Running around. Yet people with endless magicka can cast and cast and cast and catch you as long as youre in gap closer distance.
This game is still ruled my magicka regen and maximum stats.
My stamina nightblade presently utilizes 1500 magicka regen minimum just so i can cloak to get out of dodge (when it works) because sprinting around nets you so much loss on stamina regen theres no point to sprint at all in this game. Im not even going to mention all the counters to cloak.
This game was best pre-Imperial city.
No stamina regen inhibitors. (block/sprint/sneak/roll dodge)
Cloak could purge dots.
Mage Light toggle was amazing.
Sneak had a damage modifier bonus.
It was a stamina players paradise.
This is why i don't play this game. The developers instead of solving problems layered and layered over new ones. They had no vision. They just changed what people cried about and they did it in the worst way possible.
You can say the game is fine and dandy the way it is now. That doesn't change the fact that CORE gameplay mechanics were changed for the worse AND CORE CLASS IDENTITYS CHANGED for the worse patch after patch.
The only way i would come back to eso is if they reverted all these stupid changes.
Give Dragonknights unlimited wings back
give us stam regen while blocking/sprinting/sneaking back
give us cloak purge
give us no dodge roll costs and streak costs
give us old spear shards and repentance
There was so much good in the game until these changes ruined a lot of what made the game fun.
You can tackle costs and resource management in different ways. You can kill people with CC or draining there resources to 0. The gameplay back in the old days was and always will be more fun then it is now.
I wont quibble with you about the glory days, but are you suggesting that mag has an edge in PVP currently? That is laughable. Stam is certainly the meta spec in PVP and has been for a while We are living in a "stamina players paradise". Stamblade spent a long time at the top of the food change, but of course, ZOS introduced 2 P2W classes, so stamblade is in third or 4th place at this point. Still a very capable 1vX class in the right hands.
[snip] Magicka warden and magicka necro where anything but p2w upon their respective launches. Or is that because access to them is tied to a content purchase therefore any given period of time where they are "meta" in the game, they are by default p2w? Lol......
Dont over think it. I really dont think this game is all that P2W and I have no issue with classes, chapters, DLCS, costing money. The game has to grow, and this is a necessity.
But I will call it how it is. Warden and Necro are behind a paywall and as it stands right now, they are the two most powerful classes in PVP. Necro is meta for Mag PVE DPS, Warden is arguably the BIS healer, and situationally the BIS tank. If you could only pick two classes to build a 12 man raid, you would pick these two. I don't think that is a coincidence, and I think profit is a motivator for the current power balance.
Also, Warden walked into PVP as a God tier from the get go, and Stamcro was meta for DPS in the early Sunspire days immediately after release. Maybe not across the board, but both were OP at launch in their ways.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on March 8, 2021 3:43PM6 -
Merllow✭✭✭If all the blows hit and your invisibility was not reset by hitting you with damage, then this would be a class above balance. Nightblade is capable of killing people with 26k hp for an unexpected streak, and these people do not even have time to press a couple of buttons. For many in general, the battle with NB is very problematic, these are people without AoE damage. And such people generally cannot kill NB, because he will press his cloak and it will become impossible to see and hit him. The anti-invisibility bank immediately shows that you have been found and you tumble and run for 15 seconds and then scoff again. The ability from the guild of magicians has a radis of 12 meters, sometimes the NB manages to enter this area and he does not need to approach his abilities at close range for this reason, not 7 meters, but 5 meters radius, but this does not help, especially if the ping is 100 ms. NB will turn the streak anyway. Thank God that you have problems with at least someone and you cannot dominate everyone.0
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xI_The_Owl_Ix✭✭✭✭✭If all the blows hit and your invisibility was not reset by hitting you with damage, then this would be a class above balance. Nightblade is capable of killing people with 26k hp for an unexpected streak, and these people do not even have time to press a couple of buttons. For many in general, the battle with NB is very problematic, these are people without AoE damage. And such people generally cannot kill NB, because he will press his cloak and it will become impossible to see and hit him. The anti-invisibility bank immediately shows that you have been found and you tumble and run for 15 seconds and then scoff again. The ability from the guild of magicians has a radis of 12 meters, sometimes the NB manages to enter this area and he does not need to approach his abilities at close range for this reason, not 7 meters, but 5 meters radius, but this does not help, especially if the ping is 100 ms. NB will turn the streak anyway. Thank God that you have problems with at least someone and you cannot dominate everyone.
If you die to NB its a learning issue, you can 100% mitigate the dmg a NB throws at you by simply roll dodging or blocking and healing. I dont remember the last time I died to a NB on my StamDK, just block, heal, leap and execute.7 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »If all the blows hit and your invisibility was not reset by hitting you with damage, then this would be a class above balance. Nightblade is capable of killing people with 26k hp for an unexpected streak, and these people do not even have time to press a couple of buttons. For many in general, the battle with NB is very problematic, these are people without AoE damage. And such people generally cannot kill NB, because he will press his cloak and it will become impossible to see and hit him. The anti-invisibility bank immediately shows that you have been found and you tumble and run for 15 seconds and then scoff again. The ability from the guild of magicians has a radis of 12 meters, sometimes the NB manages to enter this area and he does not need to approach his abilities at close range for this reason, not 7 meters, but 5 meters radius, but this does not help, especially if the ping is 100 ms. NB will turn the streak anyway. Thank God that you have problems with at least someone and you cannot dominate everyone.
If you die to NB its a learning issue, you can 100% mitigate the dmg a NB throws at you by simply roll dodging or blocking and healing. I dont remember the last time I died to a NB on my StamDK, just block, heal, leap and execute.
It is total nonsense to suggest that dying to a nightblade is a L2P issue. Nightblades are elusive and capable of very high burst. I wont sit here and say that they are as strong as they once were, or that they are at the top of the food chain, because they arent, but if you can't kill a good player on a NB, that is perhaps a different L2P issue.0 -
xI_The_Owl_Ix✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »If all the blows hit and your invisibility was not reset by hitting you with damage, then this would be a class above balance. Nightblade is capable of killing people with 26k hp for an unexpected streak, and these people do not even have time to press a couple of buttons. For many in general, the battle with NB is very problematic, these are people without AoE damage. And such people generally cannot kill NB, because he will press his cloak and it will become impossible to see and hit him. The anti-invisibility bank immediately shows that you have been found and you tumble and run for 15 seconds and then scoff again. The ability from the guild of magicians has a radis of 12 meters, sometimes the NB manages to enter this area and he does not need to approach his abilities at close range for this reason, not 7 meters, but 5 meters radius, but this does not help, especially if the ping is 100 ms. NB will turn the streak anyway. Thank God that you have problems with at least someone and you cannot dominate everyone.
If you die to NB its a learning issue, you can 100% mitigate the dmg a NB throws at you by simply roll dodging or blocking and healing. I dont remember the last time I died to a NB on my StamDK, just block, heal, leap and execute.
It is total nonsense to suggest that dying to a nightblade is a L2P issue. Nightblades are elusive and capable of very high burst. I wont sit here and say that they are as strong as they once were, or that they are at the top of the food chain, because they arent, but if you can't kill a good player on a NB, that is perhaps a different L2P issue.
Dying to a NB whos not snipe stacking is 100% a L2P issue, whats a solo NB going to do if you just turtle up and heal or just roll dodge and heal? Theres literally nothing it can do. Block has insane mitigation + uncritable, making NBs burst impossible. I remember how I would hit 10k crit Swallow Souls with my gankblade but the moment the guy blocked it turned to 800dmg per hit. NBs are probably the most counterable class there is.Edited by xI_The_Owl_Ix on March 4, 2021 2:45AM8 -
russelmmendoza✭✭✭✭✭
✭xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »The Nightblade as a whole is probably the clunkiest class in ESO right now. But why is that?
With this post I hope to showcase why the class "feels" so clunky.
I also made a post focusing more on Magicka Nightblades, and why its so frustrating to play one.:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/519870/playing-a-magblade-is-nothing-but-frustrating/p1
Part 1: Stamina/Melee Range
First lets talk about Stamina Nightblades and melee range inconsistency.
The whole inconsistency means that if your medium or heavy 2H attacks hits, your spammable (Surpirse Attack) wont, which makes the combat feel clunky and you end up with the "cursed" TARGET OUT OF RANGE message.
We can clearly see that NBs melee skills dont follow the regular "skill guidelines". (AoE-8m, Spammable-7m+, Execute-5m,)
Most of the other melee spammables seem to be 7m or up.
Flurry - 7m
Uppercut - 7m
Puncturing Strikes - 8m
That puts the Stamina Nightblade in an disadvantage, it might happen that you get hit from a 7m range but your Surprise Attack (SA) wont hit the enemy. Another issue with SA is that if the enemy is faster than you, be it via the Swift jewelry-trait, a skill, or set; the chances of you hitting the enemy becomes lower especially with how laggy PvP is. Same issue arise when snared.
For example: you get snared by Jabs which is a 8m range spammable, that means the enemy can just back up while spamming Jabs and you wont be able to hit him due to the range disparity.
The only other spammable with a 5m range that comes to mind is Lava Whip used by Magicka Dragonknights(Apparently DKs have a passive which ads 2m to this skill making it 7m), however that only works because Mag DKs usually stun-lock the enemy and ensure that the enemy is immobilized and cant move around. Stamina NBs dont have that.
To fix this issue the dev team could:
a) improve the range of SA (at least 7m)
b) give NBs a good Snare skill/passive
c) give NB a good Minor/Major Expedition skill/passive
Same goes for Mass Hysteria, why is it 6m when almost every other AoE is 8m? Especially if we look at how "bare" the skill is.
As well as the Relentless Focus projectile, why is it 30m? Its a melee/stamina morph. Reduce the range and remove/reduce the travel time.
Too many Nightblade melee skills have different ranges which ends up being inconsistent and doesnt synergize well with other abilities/Medium/Heavy-attacks which in return makes the class feel clunky.
Same can be said about Magicka Nightblades.
Part 2: Magicka/Single Target
Single Target, Roll Dodge and Lag.
All of the offensive damage abilities are single target, except for 3: Drain Power, Twisting Path and Soul Tether.
This means you can hard counter (100% mitigate) almost all of the damage abilties the class has to offer by simply roll dodging. Something literally every class has access to.
This is an issue for both, Stamina and Magicka Nightblades. However Magicka Nightblades are hit harder by this due to travel time of projectiles and general lag.
Generally speaking nothing hits. Its frustating when an enemy is literally standing still on your screen but somehow "dodge" appears above their head.
You can clearly see that the guy Im fighting is standing still, so why am I getting "dodged"?
Thats because of the travel-time projectiles have, combined with PvP lag. Its especially worse on a magblade because every attack (except sap essence) can be hard countered/100% mitigated by just roll dodging. Thats not fun, its frustrating watching a guy with 5% HP just spam roll dodge and self heals and get back up to 100% HP.
Projectile speed
Now lets have a look at "Swallow Soul" - the main spammable of a magblade and compare it to "Concealed Weapon"- a melee spammable which also costs magicka and therefore used my some melee magblades.
Swallow Soul
Concealed Weapon
If we look at both we can clearly see that "Swallow Soul" (compared to "Concealed Weapon") hits with a delay, add PvP lag into the calculation and the chances of "Swallow Soul" hitting someone becomes very small. Which again is nothing else but frustrating.
First fix should be to increase the speed of projectiles and remove cast times/long travel times. However the class would still be in dire need of a way to put pressure besides single target abilities. Theres nothing you can do once someone starts roll dodge spamming or blocking and healing.
A cool way to counter constant roll dodging, blocking and running would be to put a new Minor/Major Debuff on Mark Target and its morphs. This new debuff would increase the cost and duration of Roll Dodge/Block/Break Free and Sprinting, you would "Mark" the enemy with "Exhaustion" so to speak.
Part 3: Cloak/Defense
Shadow Cloak.
Cloak as a defense tool is decent at best, and that only WHEN it works. However this is a huge "when", right now (Harrowstorm) Cloak is bugged/messed up and you can be hit in cloak with single target abilities without the enemy having to use Detection Pots.
Even without it being bugged, Cloak/Shadowy Disguise feels underwhelming.
Im going to list every skill from NBs and Dragonknights class trees which breaks cloak, the only defense skill the NB has.
- Piercing Mark
- Veil of Blades
- Twisting Path
- Mass hysteria
- Manifestation of Terror
- Soul Tether
- Drain Power
- Dragonknight Standard
- Shifting Standard
- Standard of Might
- Fiery Breath
- Noxious Breath
- Engulfing Flames
- Voltaile Armor
- Dark talon
- Burning Talons
- Choking Talons
- Inhale
- Deep Breath
- Draw Essence
- Petrify
- Fossilize
- Shattering Rocks
Thats 23 skills that break cloak. And I only did list the skills from 2 class trees. + there are other skill trees as well. Initally I wanted to list all skills that break cloak but I got bored after only doing NBs and DKs. And it doesnt stop there. We also have Detection Pots which lets the user see you if youre within a 20m radius. But thats still not all, there are also Sets like Overwhelming Surge which also pull you out of cloak.
I dont think there is a defensive skill in ESO that has the same amount of counters as Shadowy Disguise/Shadow Cloak. Its insane.
The other morph "Dark Cloak" is not much better. It heals 6% of max health every second for 8seconds. Thats bad. Even on a PvE NB tank. If we assume a DPS Nightblade has 25k HP in Cyrodiil thats 750 HP every second, not enough to warrant to be used in PvP or PvE.
In my opinion letting it crit every HoT/DoT again while cloaked would help the class gain a "burst heal" and pressure with DoTs which its in dire need of. Another option would be to let it ignore any incoming damage for a second and not break out of cloak to make an escape possible against AoE spammers like Jabs or Whirl Wind.
Hopes for the future.
I hope this helps the dev team to understand why NBs are so clunky (aside from balance changes). Its probably the least fun and worst class to play with in PvP due to being too clunky and underperfoming defense and offense wise.
Im going to put a TL:DR here for the lazy people:
Stamina Nightblade:
Magicka Nightblade:
Nightblade in general:
With post like this, there should be a dev made poll to either remove nightblade class from the game or make it to another class.1 -
xI_The_Owl_Ix✭✭✭✭✭russelmmendoza wrote: »xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »The Nightblade as a whole is probably the clunkiest class in ESO right now. But why is that?
With this post I hope to showcase why the class "feels" so clunky.
I also made a post focusing more on Magicka Nightblades, and why its so frustrating to play one.:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/519870/playing-a-magblade-is-nothing-but-frustrating/p1
Part 1: Stamina/Melee Range
First lets talk about Stamina Nightblades and melee range inconsistency.
The whole inconsistency means that if your medium or heavy 2H attacks hits, your spammable (Surpirse Attack) wont, which makes the combat feel clunky and you end up with the "cursed" TARGET OUT OF RANGE message.
We can clearly see that NBs melee skills dont follow the regular "skill guidelines". (AoE-8m, Spammable-7m+, Execute-5m,)
Most of the other melee spammables seem to be 7m or up.
Flurry - 7m
Uppercut - 7m
Puncturing Strikes - 8m
That puts the Stamina Nightblade in an disadvantage, it might happen that you get hit from a 7m range but your Surprise Attack (SA) wont hit the enemy. Another issue with SA is that if the enemy is faster than you, be it via the Swift jewelry-trait, a skill, or set; the chances of you hitting the enemy becomes lower especially with how laggy PvP is. Same issue arise when snared.
For example: you get snared by Jabs which is a 8m range spammable, that means the enemy can just back up while spamming Jabs and you wont be able to hit him due to the range disparity.
The only other spammable with a 5m range that comes to mind is Lava Whip used by Magicka Dragonknights(Apparently DKs have a passive which ads 2m to this skill making it 7m), however that only works because Mag DKs usually stun-lock the enemy and ensure that the enemy is immobilized and cant move around. Stamina NBs dont have that.
To fix this issue the dev team could:
a) improve the range of SA (at least 7m)
b) give NBs a good Snare skill/passive
c) give NB a good Minor/Major Expedition skill/passive
Same goes for Mass Hysteria, why is it 6m when almost every other AoE is 8m? Especially if we look at how "bare" the skill is.
As well as the Relentless Focus projectile, why is it 30m? Its a melee/stamina morph. Reduce the range and remove/reduce the travel time.
Too many Nightblade melee skills have different ranges which ends up being inconsistent and doesnt synergize well with other abilities/Medium/Heavy-attacks which in return makes the class feel clunky.
Same can be said about Magicka Nightblades.
Part 2: Magicka/Single Target
Single Target, Roll Dodge and Lag.
All of the offensive damage abilities are single target, except for 3: Drain Power, Twisting Path and Soul Tether.
This means you can hard counter (100% mitigate) almost all of the damage abilties the class has to offer by simply roll dodging. Something literally every class has access to.
This is an issue for both, Stamina and Magicka Nightblades. However Magicka Nightblades are hit harder by this due to travel time of projectiles and general lag.
Generally speaking nothing hits. Its frustating when an enemy is literally standing still on your screen but somehow "dodge" appears above their head.
You can clearly see that the guy Im fighting is standing still, so why am I getting "dodged"?
Thats because of the travel-time projectiles have, combined with PvP lag. Its especially worse on a magblade because every attack (except sap essence) can be hard countered/100% mitigated by just roll dodging. Thats not fun, its frustrating watching a guy with 5% HP just spam roll dodge and self heals and get back up to 100% HP.
Projectile speed
Now lets have a look at "Swallow Soul" - the main spammable of a magblade and compare it to "Concealed Weapon"- a melee spammable which also costs magicka and therefore used my some melee magblades.
Swallow Soul
Concealed Weapon
If we look at both we can clearly see that "Swallow Soul" (compared to "Concealed Weapon") hits with a delay, add PvP lag into the calculation and the chances of "Swallow Soul" hitting someone becomes very small. Which again is nothing else but frustrating.
First fix should be to increase the speed of projectiles and remove cast times/long travel times. However the class would still be in dire need of a way to put pressure besides single target abilities. Theres nothing you can do once someone starts roll dodge spamming or blocking and healing.
A cool way to counter constant roll dodging, blocking and running would be to put a new Minor/Major Debuff on Mark Target and its morphs. This new debuff would increase the cost and duration of Roll Dodge/Block/Break Free and Sprinting, you would "Mark" the enemy with "Exhaustion" so to speak.
Part 3: Cloak/Defense
Shadow Cloak.
Cloak as a defense tool is decent at best, and that only WHEN it works. However this is a huge "when", right now (Harrowstorm) Cloak is bugged/messed up and you can be hit in cloak with single target abilities without the enemy having to use Detection Pots.
Even without it being bugged, Cloak/Shadowy Disguise feels underwhelming.
Im going to list every skill from NBs and Dragonknights class trees which breaks cloak, the only defense skill the NB has.
- Piercing Mark
- Veil of Blades
- Twisting Path
- Mass hysteria
- Manifestation of Terror
- Soul Tether
- Drain Power
- Dragonknight Standard
- Shifting Standard
- Standard of Might
- Fiery Breath
- Noxious Breath
- Engulfing Flames
- Voltaile Armor
- Dark talon
- Burning Talons
- Choking Talons
- Inhale
- Deep Breath
- Draw Essence
- Petrify
- Fossilize
- Shattering Rocks
Thats 23 skills that break cloak. And I only did list the skills from 2 class trees. + there are other skill trees as well. Initally I wanted to list all skills that break cloak but I got bored after only doing NBs and DKs. And it doesnt stop there. We also have Detection Pots which lets the user see you if youre within a 20m radius. But thats still not all, there are also Sets like Overwhelming Surge which also pull you out of cloak.
I dont think there is a defensive skill in ESO that has the same amount of counters as Shadowy Disguise/Shadow Cloak. Its insane.
The other morph "Dark Cloak" is not much better. It heals 6% of max health every second for 8seconds. Thats bad. Even on a PvE NB tank. If we assume a DPS Nightblade has 25k HP in Cyrodiil thats 750 HP every second, not enough to warrant to be used in PvP or PvE.
In my opinion letting it crit every HoT/DoT again while cloaked would help the class gain a "burst heal" and pressure with DoTs which its in dire need of. Another option would be to let it ignore any incoming damage for a second and not break out of cloak to make an escape possible against AoE spammers like Jabs or Whirl Wind.
Hopes for the future.
I hope this helps the dev team to understand why NBs are so clunky (aside from balance changes). Its probably the least fun and worst class to play with in PvP due to being too clunky and underperfoming defense and offense wise.
Im going to put a TL:DR here for the lazy people:
Stamina Nightblade:
Magicka Nightblade:
Nightblade in general:
With post like this, there should be a dev made poll to either remove nightblade class from the game or make it to another class.
Or they could just adress the "clunk"?5 -
MirandaSharp✭✭✭✭This is exactly why I like the Nightblade! It's quirky and difficult to play, but when you've learnt it's so awesome!0
-
xI_The_Owl_Ix✭✭✭✭✭MirandaSharp wrote: »This is exactly why I like the Nightblade! It's quirky and difficult to play, but when you've learnt it's so awesome!
Buggy and clunky skills dont make the class "quirky and difficult" - they make it "annoying and frustrating". My NB is 5* and I have 0 issues playing the class besides those mentioned issues/bugs in the OP. And Im not the only one. My Nb friend who also plays from day one has the same complaints, my other friend who just started playing the class has also the same complaints. Its quality of life issues, really.4 -
milesrodneymcneely2_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've always wondered why my Melee Magblade never felt as smooth as my Templars or Dragonknights...5 -
JayKwellen✭✭✭✭✭I dont even bother trying to pvp on my magNB anymore. Its a joke.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »MirandaSharp wrote: »This is exactly why I like the Nightblade! It's quirky and difficult to play, but when you've learnt it's so awesome!
Buggy and clunky skills dont make the class "quirky and difficult" - they make it "annoying and frustrating". My NB is 5* and I have 0 issues playing the class besides those mentioned issues/bugs in the OP. And Im not the only one. My Nb friend who also plays from day one has the same complaints, my other friend who just started playing the class has also the same complaints. Its quality of life issues, really.
All of us who have played magblades have had this same realization at some point I think. Pretty sure it's actually an official right of passage at this point.Xbox NA - JaeKwellen
AD PvP
Trying to main a magcro. This is awful.2 -
Vermintide✭✭✭✭Over the past couple weeks I've been levelling a Necro, and once I got him up to the same standard (fully CP'd, passives, etc etc) the difference is night and day.
I specced him as a healer rather than DPS, and for soloing I gave him two frost staffs and Iceheart just for fun and aesthetics. But the difference in playability even just running fairly casual PVE content is amazing; no missed weaves because of ping and crappy animation bugs, no agonising over which skills I have on my bar to maximise/balance passives, I literally just need a shield and my healing pet and I'm pretty confident I can solo anything.
With my magblade it's just an exercise in frustration watching the little number on the merciless icon, internally screaming "WHY AREN'T MY LIGHT ATTACKS WEAVING RIGHT" while your healing drops and your whole rotation goes to hell.3 -
Kory✭✭✭✭I absolutely agree about the Surprise Attack range. Way too often that skill won't do anything when someone is running away. 5 meters is a little too short. 6 meters could even make the difference.
I kid you not, I can land an 2h uppercut easier in that situation because of the range and the delay, so I can kind of strafe and parallel their movement. Doesn't work all the time though.2