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Nightblades and "Clunkiness" in PvP.
xI_The_Owl_Ix
✭✭✭✭✭
The Nightblade as a whole is probably the clunkiest class in ESO right now. But why is that?
With this post I hope to showcase why the class "feels" so clunky.
I also made a post focusing more on Magicka Nightblades, and why its so frustrating to play one.:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/519870/playing-a-magblade-is-nothing-but-frustrating/p1
Part 1: Stamina/Melee Range
First lets talk about Stamina Nightblades and melee range inconsistency.
The whole inconsistency means that if your medium or heavy 2H attacks hits, your spammable (Surpirse Attack) wont, which makes the combat feel clunky and you end up with the "cursed" TARGET OUT OF RANGE message.
We can clearly see that NBs melee skills dont follow the regular "skill guidelines". (AoE-8m, Spammable-7m+, Execute-5m,)
Most of the other melee spammables seem to be 7m or up.
Flurry - 7m
Uppercut - 7m
Puncturing Strikes - 8m
That puts the Stamina Nightblade in an disadvantage, it might happen that you get hit from a 7m range but your Surprise Attack (SA) wont hit the enemy. Another issue with SA is that if the enemy is faster than you, be it via the Swift jewelry-trait, a skill, or set; the chances of you hitting the enemy becomes lower especially with how laggy PvP is. Same issue arise when snared.
For example: you get snared by Jabs which is a 8m range spammable, that means the enemy can just back up while spamming Jabs and you wont be able to hit him due to the range disparity.
The only other spammable with a 5m range that comes to mind is Lava Whip used by Magicka Dragonknights(Apparently DKs have a passive which ads 2m to this skill making it 7m), however that only works because Mag DKs usually stun-lock the enemy and ensure that the enemy is immobilized and cant move around. Stamina NBs dont have that.
To fix this issue the dev team could:
a) improve the range of SA (at least 7m)
b) give NBs a good Snare skill/passive
c) give NB a good Minor/Major Expedition skill/passive
Same goes for Mass Hysteria, why is it 6m when almost every other AoE is 8m? Especially if we look at how "bare" the skill is.
As well as the Relentless Focus projectile, why is it 30m? Its a melee/stamina morph. Reduce the range and remove/reduce the travel time.
Too many Nightblade melee skills have different ranges which ends up being inconsistent and doesnt synergize well with other abilities/Medium/Heavy-attacks which in return makes the class feel clunky.
Same can be said about Magicka Nightblades.
Part 2: Magicka/Single Target
Single Target, Roll Dodge and Lag.
All of the offensive damage abilities are single target, except for 3: Drain Power, Twisting Path and Soul Tether.
This means you can hard counter (100% mitigate) almost all of the damage abilties the class has to offer by simply roll dodging. Something literally every class has access to.
This is an issue for both, Stamina and Magicka Nightblades. However Magicka Nightblades are hit harder by this due to travel time of projectiles and general lag.
Generally speaking nothing hits. Its frustating when an enemy is literally standing still on your screen but somehow "dodge" appears above their head.
You can clearly see that the guy Im fighting is standing still, so why am I getting "dodged"?
Thats because of the travel-time projectiles have, combined with PvP lag. Its especially worse on a magblade because every attack (except sap essence) can be hard countered/100% mitigated by just roll dodging. Thats not fun, its frustrating watching a guy with 5% HP just spam roll dodge and self heals and get back up to 100% HP.
Projectile speed
Now lets have a look at "Swallow Soul" - the main spammable of a magblade and compare it to "Concealed Weapon"- a melee spammable which also costs magicka and therefore used my some melee magblades.
Swallow Soul
Concealed Weapon
If we look at both we can clearly see that "Swallow Soul" (compared to "Concealed Weapon") hits with a delay, add PvP lag into the calculation and the chances of "Swallow Soul" hitting someone becomes very small. Which again is nothing else but frustrating.
First fix should be to increase the speed of projectiles and remove cast times/long travel times. However the class would still be in dire need of a way to put pressure besides single target abilities. Theres nothing you can do once someone starts roll dodge spamming or blocking and healing.
A cool way to counter constant roll dodging, blocking and running would be to put a new Minor/Major Debuff on Mark Target and its morphs. This new debuff would increase the cost and duration of Roll Dodge/Block/Break Free and Sprinting, you would "Mark" the enemy with "Exhaustion" so to speak.
Part 3: Cloak/Defense
Shadow Cloak.
Cloak as a defense tool is decent at best, and that only WHEN it works. However this is a huge "when", right now (Harrowstorm) Cloak is bugged/messed up and you can be hit in cloak with single target abilities without the enemy having to use Detection Pots.
Even without it being bugged, Cloak/Shadowy Disguise feels underwhelming.
Im going to list every skill from NBs and Dragonknights class trees which breaks cloak, the only defense skill the NB has.
- Piercing Mark
- Veil of Blades
- Twisting Path
- Mass hysteria
- Manifestation of Terror
- Soul Tether
- Drain Power
- Dragonknight Standard
- Shifting Standard
- Standard of Might
- Fiery Breath
- Noxious Breath
- Engulfing Flames
- Voltaile Armor
- Dark talon
- Burning Talons
- Choking Talons
- Inhale
- Deep Breath
- Draw Essence
- Petrify
- Fossilize
- Shattering Rocks
Thats 23 skills that break cloak. And I only did list the skills from 2 class trees. + there are other skill trees as well. Initally I wanted to list all skills that break cloak but I got bored after only doing NBs and DKs. And it doesnt stop there. We also have Detection Pots which lets the user see you if youre within a 20m radius. But thats still not all, there are also Sets like Overwhelming Surge which also pull you out of cloak.
I dont think there is a defensive skill in ESO that has the same amount of counters as Shadowy Disguise/Shadow Cloak. Its insane.
The other morph "Dark Cloak" is not much better. It heals 6% of max health every second for 8seconds. Thats bad. Even on a PvE NB tank. If we assume a DPS Nightblade has 25k HP in Cyrodiil thats 750 HP every second, not enough to warrant to be used in PvP or PvE.
In my opinion letting it crit every HoT/DoT again while cloaked would help the class gain a "burst heal" and pressure with DoTs which its in dire need of. Another option would be to let it ignore any incoming damage for a second and not break out of cloak to make an escape possible against AoE spammers like Jabs or Whirl Wind.
Hopes for the future.
I hope this helps the dev team to understand why NBs are so clunky (aside from balance changes). Its probably the least fun and worst class to play with in PvP due to being too clunky and underperfoming defense and offense wise.
Im going to put a TL:DR here for the lazy people:
Stamina Nightblade:
Magicka Nightblade:
Nightblade in general:
Edited by xI_The_Owl_Ix on April 15, 2020 1:01AM With this post I hope to showcase why the class "feels" so clunky.
I also made a post focusing more on Magicka Nightblades, and why its so frustrating to play one.:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/519870/playing-a-magblade-is-nothing-but-frustrating/p1
Part 1: Stamina/Melee Range
First lets talk about Stamina Nightblades and melee range inconsistency.
The whole inconsistency means that if your medium or heavy 2H attacks hits, your spammable (Surpirse Attack) wont, which makes the combat feel clunky and you end up with the "cursed" TARGET OUT OF RANGE message.
We can clearly see that NBs melee skills dont follow the regular "skill guidelines". (AoE-8m, Spammable-7m+, Execute-5m,)
Most of the other melee spammables seem to be 7m or up.
Flurry - 7m
Uppercut - 7m
Puncturing Strikes - 8m
That puts the Stamina Nightblade in an disadvantage, it might happen that you get hit from a 7m range but your Surprise Attack (SA) wont hit the enemy. Another issue with SA is that if the enemy is faster than you, be it via the Swift jewelry-trait, a skill, or set; the chances of you hitting the enemy becomes lower especially with how laggy PvP is. Same issue arise when snared.
For example: you get snared by Jabs which is a 8m range spammable, that means the enemy can just back up while spamming Jabs and you wont be able to hit him due to the range disparity.
The only other spammable with a 5m range that comes to mind is Lava Whip used by Magicka Dragonknights(Apparently DKs have a passive which ads 2m to this skill making it 7m), however that only works because Mag DKs usually stun-lock the enemy and ensure that the enemy is immobilized and cant move around. Stamina NBs dont have that.
To fix this issue the dev team could:
a) improve the range of SA (at least 7m)
b) give NBs a good Snare skill/passive
c) give NB a good Minor/Major Expedition skill/passive
Same goes for Mass Hysteria, why is it 6m when almost every other AoE is 8m? Especially if we look at how "bare" the skill is.
As well as the Relentless Focus projectile, why is it 30m? Its a melee/stamina morph. Reduce the range and remove/reduce the travel time.
Too many Nightblade melee skills have different ranges which ends up being inconsistent and doesnt synergize well with other abilities/Medium/Heavy-attacks which in return makes the class feel clunky.
Same can be said about Magicka Nightblades.
Part 2: Magicka/Single Target
Single Target, Roll Dodge and Lag.
All of the offensive damage abilities are single target, except for 3: Drain Power, Twisting Path and Soul Tether.
This means you can hard counter (100% mitigate) almost all of the damage abilties the class has to offer by simply roll dodging. Something literally every class has access to.
This is an issue for both, Stamina and Magicka Nightblades. However Magicka Nightblades are hit harder by this due to travel time of projectiles and general lag.
Generally speaking nothing hits. Its frustating when an enemy is literally standing still on your screen but somehow "dodge" appears above their head.
You can clearly see that the guy Im fighting is standing still, so why am I getting "dodged"?
Thats because of the travel-time projectiles have, combined with PvP lag. Its especially worse on a magblade because every attack (except sap essence) can be hard countered/100% mitigated by just roll dodging. Thats not fun, its frustrating watching a guy with 5% HP just spam roll dodge and self heals and get back up to 100% HP.
Projectile speed
Now lets have a look at "Swallow Soul" - the main spammable of a magblade and compare it to "Concealed Weapon"- a melee spammable which also costs magicka and therefore used my some melee magblades.
Swallow Soul
Concealed Weapon
If we look at both we can clearly see that "Swallow Soul" (compared to "Concealed Weapon") hits with a delay, add PvP lag into the calculation and the chances of "Swallow Soul" hitting someone becomes very small. Which again is nothing else but frustrating.
First fix should be to increase the speed of projectiles and remove cast times/long travel times. However the class would still be in dire need of a way to put pressure besides single target abilities. Theres nothing you can do once someone starts roll dodge spamming or blocking and healing.
A cool way to counter constant roll dodging, blocking and running would be to put a new Minor/Major Debuff on Mark Target and its morphs. This new debuff would increase the cost and duration of Roll Dodge/Block/Break Free and Sprinting, you would "Mark" the enemy with "Exhaustion" so to speak.
Part 3: Cloak/Defense
Shadow Cloak.
Cloak as a defense tool is decent at best, and that only WHEN it works. However this is a huge "when", right now (Harrowstorm) Cloak is bugged/messed up and you can be hit in cloak with single target abilities without the enemy having to use Detection Pots.
Even without it being bugged, Cloak/Shadowy Disguise feels underwhelming.
Im going to list every skill from NBs and Dragonknights class trees which breaks cloak, the only defense skill the NB has.
- Piercing Mark
- Veil of Blades
- Twisting Path
- Mass hysteria
- Manifestation of Terror
- Soul Tether
- Drain Power
- Dragonknight Standard
- Shifting Standard
- Standard of Might
- Fiery Breath
- Noxious Breath
- Engulfing Flames
- Voltaile Armor
- Dark talon
- Burning Talons
- Choking Talons
- Inhale
- Deep Breath
- Draw Essence
- Petrify
- Fossilize
- Shattering Rocks
Thats 23 skills that break cloak. And I only did list the skills from 2 class trees. + there are other skill trees as well. Initally I wanted to list all skills that break cloak but I got bored after only doing NBs and DKs. And it doesnt stop there. We also have Detection Pots which lets the user see you if youre within a 20m radius. But thats still not all, there are also Sets like Overwhelming Surge which also pull you out of cloak.
I dont think there is a defensive skill in ESO that has the same amount of counters as Shadowy Disguise/Shadow Cloak. Its insane.
The other morph "Dark Cloak" is not much better. It heals 6% of max health every second for 8seconds. Thats bad. Even on a PvE NB tank. If we assume a DPS Nightblade has 25k HP in Cyrodiil thats 750 HP every second, not enough to warrant to be used in PvP or PvE.
In my opinion letting it crit every HoT/DoT again while cloaked would help the class gain a "burst heal" and pressure with DoTs which its in dire need of. Another option would be to let it ignore any incoming damage for a second and not break out of cloak to make an escape possible against AoE spammers like Jabs or Whirl Wind.
Hopes for the future.
I hope this helps the dev team to understand why NBs are so clunky (aside from balance changes). Its probably the least fun and worst class to play with in PvP due to being too clunky and underperfoming defense and offense wise.
Im going to put a TL:DR here for the lazy people:
Stamina Nightblade:
Magicka Nightblade:
Nightblade in general:
60
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martinhpb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Good post OP
I dropped SA it just isn't worth itAt least the spelling is difficult for you.
Hew's Bane*5 -
Feizao✭✭✭Dragonknights have a passive under the draconic tree that increases their melee range
Elder Dragon:
Increases range of your melee attacks by 2 meters. This effect only applies to instant cast attacks with a 5 meter range.
This is more relevant toward magDKs. nvmEdited by Feizao on April 15, 2020 12:59AMPS4 NA lsoSO4P
EP - Dark Elf - MagBlade Vamp
EP - Nord - Stam/MagDk
EP - Argonian - StamCro
EP - Nord - StamPlar/Hybrid Healer
AD - Khajit - StamBlade/Tank
AD - Khajit - StormSorc/Hybrid WW
DC - Breton - MagDen1 -
xI_The_Owl_Ix✭✭✭✭✭Dragonknights have a passive under the draconic tree that increases their melee range
Elder Dragon:
Increases range of your melee attacks by 2 meters. This effect only applies to instant cast attacks with a 5 meter range.
This is more relevant toward magDKs. nvm
So even magDKs spammable is 7m?1 -
Feizao✭✭✭xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »Dragonknights have a passive under the draconic tree that increases their melee range
Elder Dragon:
Increases range of your melee attacks by 2 meters. This effect only applies to instant cast attacks with a 5 meter range.
This is more relevant toward magDKs. nvm
So even magDKs spammable is 7m?
True. I was thinking about StamDK vs StamBlade when i was writing. and the passive wouldn't apply to Dswing/flurry
PS4 NA lsoSO4P
EP - Dark Elf - MagBlade Vamp
EP - Nord - Stam/MagDk
EP - Argonian - StamCro
EP - Nord - StamPlar/Hybrid Healer
AD - Khajit - StamBlade/Tank
AD - Khajit - StormSorc/Hybrid WW
DC - Breton - MagDen0 -
kalunte✭✭✭✭✭well, you forgot to tell about all noticed or hidden "cast times" on nightblades abilities but here are some of the main issues for sure, alongside "single use only" skills (while some classes and even generic skill lines have overloaded ones) and malevolent offering... xD a skill i cant find any use since years...7 -
xI_The_Owl_Ix✭✭✭✭✭well, you forgot to tell about all noticed or hidden "cast times" on nightblades abilities but here are some of the main issues for sure, alongside "single use only" skills (while some classes and even generic skill lines have overloaded ones) and malevolent offering... xD a skill i cant find any use since years...
I went more in-depth about that in my other thread I linked in the OP.1 -
fred4✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NB main here. I'm wondering how much of the real problems with cloak are down specifically to the Sentry set having unlimited range.PC EU: Magblade (PvP main), DK (PvE Tank), Sorc (PvP and PvE), Magden (PvE Healer), Magplar (PvP and PvE DD), Arcanist (PvE DD)
PC NA: Magblade (PvP and PvE every role)2 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NB main here. I'm wondering how much of the real problems with cloak are down specifically to the Sentry set having unlimited range.
I doubt it. Most players don’t spec to kill NBs, what would the point be? I don’t even use detect pots on some of my alts, you don’t need them.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten5 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The Nightblade class identity is that they have all the same abilities everyone else has; except worse.16 -
fred4✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
You haven't been on PC EU, have you? I've been spotted by a group sitting on the Arrius lumber flag as soon as I came down the stairs from the keep, fully in cloak (not crouch). It doesn't happen often, but when you run into a group where someone does that, it's game over for a cloaking nightblade. It's worse than detection potions. You have to go and play elsewhere.PC EU: Magblade (PvP main), DK (PvE Tank), Sorc (PvP and PvE), Magden (PvE Healer), Magplar (PvP and PvE DD), Arcanist (PvE DD)
PC NA: Magblade (PvP and PvE every role)0 -
Deathlord92✭✭✭✭✭
✭Good post op I still think swallow soul could do with a slight buff to damage tooltip I’m still tweaking my magblade I just can’t quite reach 10k swallow soul tooltip and keep good recovery it just feels underwhelming as for concealed weapon its in desperate need of a buff.Edited by Deathlord92 on April 17, 2020 11:32AM3 -
xI_The_Owl_Ix✭✭✭✭✭Deathlord92 wrote: »Good post op I still think swallow soul could do with a slight buff to damage tooltip I’m still tweaking my magblade I just can’t quite reach 10k swallow soul tooltip and keep good recovery it just feels underwhelming as for concealed weapon its in desperate need of a buff.
I 100% agree, magblades need a dmg buff.6 -
Josira✭✭✭✭Stam nightblade used to be like sorc in the lack of usual class clunkiness...
Used to be.
That was it’s strenght. The ability to seemlessly weave and animation cancel it’s abilities.now?
It can’t do that too well..
A class is well designed and powerful when it doesn’t need procs to actually function.
Stam nightblade used to be this,along with sorc. Now it’s just sorc.
I will forever be confused at what the *** happened in between my change from console to pc.
"BlooD FReNZy TicKS aLL thE BoXes of WhaT iT mEanS tO bE a VaMpiRe"5 -
erio✭✭✭✭✭Still can confirm that fighting anyone who has any sort of highish movement speed is a nightmare. Its constant out of range errors. The lag doesnt help either.3
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Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Clunky is a great way to phrase it, and it's so unintuitive for a class that's supposed to stike fast. Plus, incap sometimes gets consumed, the sound goes off and everything, but it doesn't actually cast, and the gap closer is ridiculous, even the slightless lag and it ends up in the funniest animations. I wish they did something about these.4 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »Dragonknights have a passive under the draconic tree that increases their melee range
Elder Dragon:
Increases range of your melee attacks by 2 meters. This effect only applies to instant cast attacks with a 5 meter range.
This is more relevant toward magDKs. nvm
So even magDKs spammable is 7m?
As a magDK I can confirm this. It even applies to the vampire spammable, Fossilize, and Burning Embers. DKs have great reach in melee.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK3 -
Vermintide✭✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »Stamina nightblade is still the best solo pvp class.
What does that have to do with this thread?3 -
xI_The_Owl_Ix✭✭✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »Stamina nightblade is still the best solo pvp class.
The thread isnt about balance its about quality of life and how well/fluid the nightblade class plays.
I also would disagree with you, StamCro and StamDen are the best classes/specs to solo PvP atm.5 -
Doczy✭✭✭xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »Stamina nightblade is still the best solo pvp class.
...., StamCro and StamDen are the best classes/specs to solo PvP atm.
almost for 2 years . and zos did nothing about this2 -
doomette✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ugh, with the wonkiness that happens to SA due to lag, I basically just end up looking like I’m trying to kill people by wiggling in front of them a lot.
Wiggling, unfortunately, is not a super effective attack 😐3 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
It is not "best". Stam Warden & Stam Necro takes the cake here too. Those classes are S tier, while Stam NB is A.PhoenixGrey wrote: »Stamina nightblade is still the best solo pvp class.
So it is still very good, but not definitely not "best". Maybe out of base game classes only, but we have also Mag Sorc here in A tier.3 -
Faded✭✭✭✭✭Ugh, with the wonkiness that happens to SA due to lag, I basically just end up looking like I’m trying to kill people by wiggling in front of them a lot.
Wiggling, unfortunately, is not a super effective attack 😐
If it's any consolation, every time a stamblade has bounced off me since Elsweyr I've had nothing but sympathy.
In no game but ESO do you have to allow for any win having very little to you with you and everything to do with the game screwing your opponent.0 -
xI_The_Owl_Ix✭✭✭✭✭Luckylancer wrote: »[Quoted post was removed]
[snip]
Range problems have nothing to do with l2p, I cleary show you the disperity between the range of melee NB skills and other class melee skills. None of the other classes have to get as close as the nightblade while stuff like jabs and dizzy also applies a snare to the enemy to help with the range, not only that but DKs also have a very good passive snare and sorcs have access to minor expediton to close the range.
Also "recently" the position checks were moved to be done server-side which made the "target out of range" issue worse than ever.
Theres nothing you can do about magblade dodge? Im sorry what? They could make Swallow Soul undodgeable, they could remove the travel time and make it instant, they could reduce the travel time/increase travel speed. Thats atleast 3 suggestions they could do to adress the issue.
[snip]
[Edited to remove Baiting]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on February 28, 2021 3:12PM0 -
techyeshic✭✭✭✭✭I'd be careful. We used to talk about templar clunkiness like the animation for jabs being longer than the channel. They increased the duration of the channel. Incoming " we've made all instants match the brief cast time ultimates have so animation matches up and feels more fluid.".
My NB was my 2nd most played for me and I totally get it, though. I don't know how the good ones I see go so fluid between ability and the shorter range than dizzy with all the position desync that came with update 25Edited by techyeshic on February 28, 2021 1:24PM3
good job ZOS . take our money for nothing. 
