I'm soo glad premades aren't a thing in BGs anymore!

Qbiken

Nick_Balza wrote: »

paul.olesonb14_ESO wrote: »

again, not a premade... https://imgur.com/a/PvxJFsk

Dude, if you wanna say that they are running as a premades, please, tell me how. Because today it is just impossible.

It´s actually not......but you all don´t need to know how anyway

Nick_Balza

Qbiken wrote: »

Nick_Balza wrote: »

paul.olesonb14_ESO wrote: »

again, not a premade... https://imgur.com/a/PvxJFsk

Dude, if you wanna say that they are running as a premades, please, tell me how. Because today it is just impossible.

It´s actually not......but you all don´t need to know how anyway

Well, except queue at the same time there are no options.
Anyway, we will wait when zos will bring it back officially

MurderMostFoul

Nick_Balza wrote: »

Is that someone's problem that I am not doing things for winning? Nope. It's my problem and my responsibility. I am just a casual player. But I had more fun and more chances to win on BG, when I was playing with my mate and gf. They are newbies in ESO, but we were able to confront strong organized teams and grab the victory through cooperation. Even if we have average skill, average builds and average gear.

I believe they should allow solos and duos to queue. It gives folks like you the social play and added coordination that make BGs more enjoyable, while hardcore duo optimizers would get a slight advantage from making complementary builds and working together. But even such a duo would have half their team randomly assigned and would often need to carry, thus balancing their advantage.

Nick_Balza

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Nick_Balza wrote: »

Is that someone's problem that I am not doing things for winning? Nope. It's my problem and my responsibility. I am just a casual player. But I had more fun and more chances to win on BG, when I was playing with my mate and gf. They are newbies in ESO, but we were able to confront strong organized teams and grab the victory through cooperation. Even if we have average skill, average builds and average gear.

I believe they should allow solos and duos to queue. It gives folks like you the social play and added coordination that make BGs more enjoyable, while hardcore duo optimizers would get a slight advantage from making complementary builds and working together. But even such a duo would have half their team randomly assigned and would often need to carry, thus balancing their advantage.

Idk... What if we want to play in 3? What if we have full group with some random guy from guild? Or none of them is available and I will play alone?

And again. We have solo queue atm. Whatever type of bg is - everyone plays DM with one-button classes\builds. Nobody is focused on objectives. Texting people in group chat is pointless because nobody cares. All I see on BG now - deathmatch between DD sorcs and templars. It's 65-75% of players. I enjoyed playing with necro healer, but what's the point in healing now if people running away from heals\buffs\enemy debuffs? Same with tanking or other classes.

Maybe there is a point to give solo players deathmatch only, when organized players would be able DM + Flag games and land grab?

MurderMostFoul

Nick_Balza wrote: »

Idk... What if we want to play in 3? What if we have full group with some random guy from guild? Or none of them is available and I will play alone?

That's what makes it a compromise.

Nick_Balza wrote: »

And again. We have solo queue atm. Whatever type of bg is - everyone plays DM with one-button classes\builds. Nobody is focused on objectives. Texting people in group chat is pointless because nobody cares. All I see on BG now - deathmatch between DD sorcs and templars. It's 65-75% of players. I enjoyed playing with necro healer, but what's the point in healing now if people running away from heals\buffs\enemy debuffs? Same with tanking or other classes.

Luckily, this really hasn't been my experience on Xbox NA. I primarily queue for Deathmatch, but when I'm doing the daily bonus and get an objective match, most players appear to be trying to play the objective (with varying levels of success). Players running off on their own, not working together, seems far more prevalent in Deathmatch.

Nick_Balza

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

That's what makes it a compromise.

Organized noob team (like mine) is easily hammered by randoms. Because we are casual players and not about all that DPS, MMR, sophisticated calculations and other pro-gaming

nonsense

stuff.
I will be honest if I will say that I like playing with newbies/casual players more than with 810+ players. Because first thing they are trying to do - work in the team. They are friendly and I am not getting mad if I am killed by a newbie or organized group of casual players. I am glad that they have a teamwork and having fun. That's the group activities were designed for.

I am not sure that some sort of compromise is possible. ZOS is in between hammer and rock. They have an option to leave it like this: they will lose huge amount of people, who like group PvP, enjoyed playing with friends, BG Guilds and focus on PvE/solo players/new-comers.
Social elements work in two sides: someone can bring people to the game, but same people may take people out.
On the other hand they can bring group BG back and they will read complaints about premades again. With bad results too.

I understand both sides of this Holy War. But I worked in game/software development industry and understand ZOS and the hard choice they have. All our wet fantasies about "make it 2 queue, 1 queue, 3 queue, 4 queue, 1x1x1, nerf this, boost that, make a Royal Rumble and etc." require damn tons of insane hard work, resources, tests and efforts. So, only one solution is possible, which will hurt one of the sides of this conflict. Nobody can satisfy everyone.

Kidgangster101

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

The only reason you guys think premades dominated everything is because you can't tell the difference between a premade and a group of random people that actually play the game mode........ Idk maybe together like it was designed to be played?

You shouldn't assume things about people. I know the difference between premades and a matchmade group. You know a group is a premade when it's the same 4 people together over and over. In fact, from:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6308632#Comment_6308632

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

I start to believe that a lot of inexperienced players think that every group that stick together is a premade.

This is definitely a thing. I've been with three random and utterly steamrolled the other teams many times before. I'm not saying the matchmaking system is in good shape by any means, but you can't blame all of your lopsided defeats on premades.

I'd rather lose because i get paired with feeders, than lose multiple games in one play session because I get matched against the same highly tuned premade several times.

Sometimes you just have to overcome your weaker teammates.

So carry bad players like they get carried when in group pve content is what your saying? That sounds more like a chore tbh than playing a virtual video game.

:

It’s not a chore. Maybe the person is new to PVP or just there to get vigor or warhorn and never plan on returning. Possible they just had a bad game too. Maybe they are a healer only with very little kills too.

It is a chore when people don't bother to listen to experienced players. Sure people might be in there to get warhorn or vigor but that is not an excuse for them not to try to win.

What happens if I went into pve dungeons to get undaunted qued as a tank with no taunt and only having 15k hp? I would get kicked from the group, probably told I am a scrub and that I'm trash ECT ECT ECT but yet it is okay for them to come into PVP content for a move and not try or listen?

People straight up don't care and that ruins the peoples that are trying to win experience.

Again if they don't care enough to try go to cyrodil join a zerg you actually will get it faster.

And lastly yes people can have a bad match I'm sure it has happened to everyone weather your kills get stolen or you die a lot or you are just distracted. And I don't mind that I never expect someone to be perfect, but what I do expect that does not happen unless you que with someone or multiple people, is teamwork. If you go down but your with the team and your trying that is fine. But what happens is people play Rambo die then it is repeated. That ruins my night if I'm trying to get ap because I have a short time to play and I have to deal with the people that have no interest in learning/working as a team.

I have taught many people to PVP through BG we lost a lot until that person improved but at least while losing they would listen to what they were doing wrong and what they could do to improve. That is the problem with solo only BG.

MurderMostFoul

Nick_Balza wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

That's what makes it a compromise.

I am not sure that some sort of compromise is possible. ZOS is in between hammer and rock. They have an option to leave it like this: they will lose huge amount of people, who like group PvP, enjoyed playing with friends, BG Guilds and focus on PvE/solo players/new-comers.
Social elements work in two sides: someone can bring people to the game, but same people may take people out.
On the other hand they can bring group BG back and they will read complaints about premades again. With bad results too.

I understand both sides of this Holy War. But I worked in game/software development industry and understand ZOS and the hard choice they have. All our wet fantasies about "make it 2 queue, 1 queue, 3 queue, 4 queue, 1x1x1, nerf this, boost that, make a Royal Rumble and etc." require damn tons of insane hard work, resources, tests and efforts. So, only one solution is possible, which will hurt one of the sides of this conflict. Nobody can satisfy everyone.

I don't see how compromising by allowing solos and duos to queue would not be possible, or terribly difficult. Each side gives a little and gets a little, and it doesn't require ZOS to build any new systems.

TequilaFire

I never once heard one of my guild mates say in BG I am here just to collect the losing AP and get vigor like I hear all the time from solo randoms.
Just make a queue that awards ap for nothing and let those that want to fight group queue.

Nick_Balza

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

I don't see how compromising by allowing solos and duos to queue would not be possible, or terribly difficult. Each side gives a little and gets a little, and it doesn't require ZOS to build any new systems.

Nobody would be satisfied because it counters experience and expectations.
If I am a group player: "What the hell, I can choose one friend to run with, what I am going to do with others who used to play in 4 group? Should I fight them or what?" And on BG social factor doesn't go anywhere. Friends will try not to hit friends or will cooperate to fight third team all together.
If I am solely solo player: "What the hell, organized duos hammered me because fighting 2 vs 1 is unfair".
If I am ZOS: "For what we wasted 1 month of work, money and resources if nobody is satisfied?".

And yes, changing BG system to hybrid takes pretty much resources. Analytics, backend developers, frontend developers, UI developers, DevOPS, managers, QA\QC, game designers. It's not "adding fields and checkboxes" thing, even if it looks like that. Never forget that ZOS has other issues to solve besides part of PvP and human resource is not infinite.

MurderMostFoul

Nick_Balza wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

I don't see how compromising by allowing solos and duos to queue would not be possible, or terribly difficult. Each side gives a little and gets a little, and it doesn't require ZOS to build any new systems.

Nobody would be satisfied because it counters experience and expectations.
If I am a group player: "What the hell, I can choose one friend to run with, what I am going to do with others who used to play in 4 group? Should I fight them or what?" And on BG social factor doesn't go anywhere. Friends will try not to hit friends or will cooperate to fight third team all together.
If I am solely solo player: "What the hell, organized duos hammered me because fighting 2 vs 1 is unfair".
If I am ZOS: "For what we wasted 1 month of work, money and resources if nobody is satisfied?".

And yes, changing BG system to hybrid takes pretty much resources. Analytics, backend developers, frontend developers, UI developers, DevOPS, managers, QA\QC, game designers. It's not "adding fields and checkboxes" thing, even if it looks like that. Never forget that ZOS has other issues to solve besides part of PvP and human resource is not infinite.

Unwillingness to compromise is the seed of stagnation and disappointment. I hope you are only speaking for yourself when you treat the idea of compromise with such disdain.

And while I don't pretend to have experience as a game developer, one can safely infer that if ZOS went from group+solo queuing BGs to solo queuing only as an "experiment," they could go from solo queuing only to duo+solo queuing without great difficulty.

Nick_Balza

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Unwillingness to compromise is the seed of stagnation and disappointment. I hope you are only speaking for yourself when you treat the idea of compromise with such disdain.

And while I don't pretend to have experience as a game developer, one can safely infer that if ZOS went from group+solo queuing BGs to solo queuing only as an "experiment," they could go from solo queuing only to duo+solo queuing without great difficulty.

If we will talk about "everything for everyone" concept, absolute solution is separating solo and group players on BG.
Solo players will have everything they have today and will play on their own space on servers.
Group players will have what they had time ago and would have own space on servers.
Joining one option excludes second one. Solo players will not get into the space where "premades" are fighting. Group players wouldn't be transferred to solo players. Filtering system as it is. Marking any of checkboxes before queue is up for a player. His decision - his responsibility for what will happen next.

That's what I would like to see. And that's what I am able to say "for myself". Is that idea genius\innovate? Nope. Is it obvious? Yes.

Unfortunately, reality is not what I want to see because world, ZOS and Bethesda are not turning around me and my vision. Same about everyone else. There are other people and other opinions and my opinion means almost nothing. Two visions are able to make sort of compromise. Three - a bit challenging. Ten - it is a pretty tough challenge. For 50k+ people - mathematically almost impossible. In this way for making decision there is a point to use numbers, analytics and raw data. Who will be more beneficial for ZOS/Bethesda - their needs would be satisfied. A bit cynical, but we are living in capitalism. Because players = income = ability to develop the product and provide new interesting content/experience. That's why we are here and having this discussion.

MurderMostFoul

Separating the queues is the closest you'll get to an ideal solution, but i doubt it's feasible.

It seems like more work for ZOS to implement and support 2 queues, and I doubt that the population of the group queue would be large enough for it to really work. (I guess if we are talking truly ideal solutions, this second group queue could have a more meaningful rank system and better incentives for playing, thus drawing in more groups. But that is a lot more work for ZOS and is likely a pipe dream.)

That's why I lean towards the compromised solution of allowing solo and duos in the same queue.

Hotdog_23

TequilaFire wrote: »

I never once heard one of my guild mates say in BG I am here just to collect the losing AP and get vigor like I hear all the time from solo randoms.
Just make a queue that awards ap for nothing and let those that want to fight group queue.

Moving Vigor and Warhorn to the figthers guild would help with this I think.

Nick_Balza

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

It seems like more work for ZOS to implement and support 2 queues, and I doubt that the population of the group queue would be large enough for it to really work. (I guess if we are talking truly ideal solutions, this second group queue could have a more meaningful rank system and better incentives for playing, thus drawing in more groups. But that is a lot more work for ZOS and is likely a pipe dream.)

That's why I lean towards the compromised solution of allowing solo and duos in the same queue.

I see many threads here and reddit posts that people are unhappy with solo queue. Some people who were against organized groups on BG changed their mind after it was implemented. So, I think the population of group queue would be almost same as solo queue.

Any improvement/patch/update is a huge work. Like I said: even allowing solos and duos to queue is a big work. Same as putting this "experiment", which was possible to publish only after re-downloading the game.
ZOS staff works from home atm, what makes implementation of anything much more challenging.

Compromise is not a thing for everyone and not for any cases. You can find compromise with me, for instance. But third person would have another opinion and would find your terms of compromise unfair. And probably that person would have better points than yours or mine. It is a game for many people besides this thread and BG. They also have opinions and visions.

Anyway that's not up for us to make decision and implement it. And it's 15 April, so I think the something was implemented already and would be published with patch/chapter. So... All we can is just wait and see what will happen.

MurderMostFoul

Nick_Balza wrote: »

Any improvement/patch/update is a huge work. Like I said: even allowing solos and duos to queue is a big work. Same as putting this "experiment", which was possible to publish only after re-downloading the game.

OK, you can disagree/make all the counterpoints you want, but please don't make absurd claims. You hurt your credibility by suggesting that switching BGs to solo queuing was possible "only" after the game redownload. The two have nothing to do with each other.

Berek_Bloodfang

https://imgur.com/a/hsZLFXO

or

https://imgur.com/a/uWFixey

I bet the other teams felt like it wasn't a "balanced" match...

MurderMostFoul

paul.olesonb14_ESO wrote: »

https://imgur.com/a/hsZLFXO

or

https://imgur.com/a/uWFixey

I bet the other teams felt like it wasn't a "balanced" match...

Again, if you thought the removal of premades was intended to prevent lopsided matches, you were mistaken. They were removed to prevent a single group of four high-skilled players from being the winners of game after game after game, and thereby degrading the experience for all the other people queuing at that time.

Jyiiga

The match making system is primitive. All it seems to factor is tank/healer/dps and overall win/lose rates. I play a healer and if I am matched with some high tempo damage dealers we do great. If I get matched some some hybrids that can't apply any real damage numbers it isn't worth being in the match at all. Just turns into a 10 minute slog and everyone ends up feeling useless.

Berek_Bloodfang

I am extremely disappointed that they didn't announce bringing back some form of "group queue", whether it being full premade vs premade or Duo-Q etc for the expansion of Greymoor, not a single word, they said they removed it as a "test" and will be monitoring the results... It's been a few months now, my friends have all quit, I have already cancelled my subscription.... What else can we do?? We want to PvP together... We can't go to Cyrodiil because we are different factions.... ????????

Hotdog_23

paul.olesonb14_ESO wrote: »

I am extremely disappointed that they didn't announce bringing back some form of "group queue", whether it being full premade vs premade or Duo-Q etc for the expansion of Greymoor, not a single word, they said they removed it as a "test" and will be monitoring the results... It's been a few months now, my friends have all quit, I have already cancelled my subscription.... What else can we do?? We want to PvP together... We can't go to Cyrodiil because we are different factions.... ????????

Factions changes are coming and this may be ZOS response to it.

Qbiken

Who cares if you can't group up anymore, BG's are a joke anyway. In every single BG's I do, I end up getting the same ping as if I was in Cyrodil during primetime. Me and several others on PC/EU are having the same issue as well.

* Cyrodil is unplayable
* More or less any PvE content is unplayable due to malfunctioning performance
* BG's are just garbage at this point (no group que since zos caters to whiners who think premades are the biggest issue, lag similar to Cyrodil during primetime)

If it weren't for the fact that IC on PC/EU has began to see some population, there wouldn't be any PvP available that is enjoyable.

Berek_Bloodfang

I really hope this experiment ends soon.

wheem_ESO

paul.olesonb14_ESO wrote: »

I really hope this experiment ends soon.

As long as premades are only matched up against other premades, I don't think anyone else really disagrees. Going back to premade-vs-random shouldn't be a thing, though.

Foto1

paul.olesonb14_ESO wrote: »

I really hope this experiment ends soon.

but I hope not. although groups should get a separate queue someday

SebDeTyra

Cherry picking much?

blistb16_ESO

Yeah good thing premades are gone

Commandment

100% Truth, changed nothing, but messed up something that already worked.

DarcyMardin

I personally preferred the system back in GW I (must be about 20 years ago). There was a random arena where you entered solo and got placed in a 4-person group. Usually the group didn’t meld in terms of skills and experience, but sometimes it did and you’d win. But there was an incentive to develop teamwork, because if you and your random team won 10 consecutive (short) matches together, you automatically moved up to the group arena, which you couldn’t enter as an inexperienced PvP’er. Once in the group arena, you could form your own team with other experienced players.

That not the system here, but I do wish they’d institute both a solo queue and a group queue here, as so many others have suggested.