New Vampire Mechanics: Maybe we're thinking about this wrong?

Vevvev

INTRODUCTION

We've all seen the new proposed vampire changes and there has been a lot of controversy on how it should be balanced due to the passives and actives being what they are. The new feeding reversal makes it even harder to think of ways to balance this as it messes up established lore when you see the debuffs attached to each stage. To me though feeding should make you stronger, not weaker, and that is why I'm coming to you today with this idea. Its probably not a good idea but.... we'll see.

Vampire Stages

As well all know on live stage 1 is the most human form a vampire has and its when they're well fed. It has very little in terms of buffs and debuffs and is where people go when they encounter problems where flame damage is an issue. ZOS wants vampires to feed to become more powerful so we start acting like vampires instead of people sitting at stage 4 for the passives. We want vampires to be more of an active choice as well, and that's why I'm presenting to you all.... this.

What is this you might ask? Our werewolf players will recognize this instantly as that bottom magicka bar is your werewolf timer. What does this have to do with vampires you might ask? Good question.

What I'm proposing is at stage 1 you have access to all your powers and passives with very little in the way of debuffs. To counter balance this every single time an ability goes off, whether it be active or passive, a portion of your blood bar ((Vampire timer)) is taken away. As you use your power you use up your blood and fall down in the stages. As this happens you grow weaker and need to feed to regain your power. This 2nd magicka bar will be how a vampire keeps track of their stages and helps them know when they need to feed before they "cross the line" and hurt themselves. Here is what I'm thinking in terms of stage buffs.

Passives for reference:

Stage 1:
Health Recovery: -0%
Flame Damage Taken: +10%
Vampire Ability Costs: -20%
Passives: All of them

Stage 2:
Health Recovery: -25%
Flame Damage Taken: +15%
Vampire Ability Costs: -15%
Passives: Lose access to Unnatural Movement, but keep the rest.

Stage 3:
Health Recovery: -50%
Flame Damage Taken: +20%
Vampire Ability Costs: -10%
Passives: Lose access to Unnatural Movement and Undeath, but keep Strike from the Shadows and Dark Stalker.

Stage 4:
Health Recovery: -75%
Flame Damage Taken: +25%
Vampire Ability Costs: -5%
Passives: Lose access to all your passives but Dark Stalker.

This might sound very powerful on paper but this is where we get into the active abilities. Also I don't mind people discussing these proposed values for the sake of balancing. Like I've been wondering whether to invert the vampire ability costs just so you blow through stage 1 very quickly.

Vampire Powers

To offset these powerful vampire buffs using the vampire abilities and triggering the passives will cause your blood meter to go down. When it hits 0 you go into the next stage and get weaker for it. The first ability we'll look at is everyone's favorite broken ability that has seen the largest amount of controversy. Yes, I'm talking about Blood Frenzy and its morphs Taste for Blood and Cold blood.

Blood Frenzy
Reference:

If you've seen fextralife's website or video showing the absolute insanity of this skill you'll know it boosts your weapon/spell damage by over 900 at the cost of your health. This in my opinion is a bit too much and it shouldn't really go over 500. 400 is a more reasonable spot all things considered since this ability probably scales with major and minor brutality and sorcery. What I propose is instead of having it cost health have it cost nothing to cast.
You might be thinking "But Vevvev.... That's insane!!!!" And you're right.... here's the catch. This ability drains your blood bar faster than anything else. If you leave it on you'll be progressing through the stages at an insane rate, ESPECIALLY if you use the Cold Blood morph. That's the price you pay for power.

I've also been thinking after you hit Stage 4, and your blood meter hits 0, the ability turns off. Only way to be able to use it again is to feed to get your meter back up.

Vampiric Drain
Reference:

This ability has had me scratching my head about how to go about it and I've dreamed up 2 possibilities for it. The first possibility is to leave both abilities as they are in terms of morphs, but then add an additional benefit to the base ability. When it is draining a person it restores a tiny amount of your blood meter as well as health. The other option is to take this effect and replace invigorating drain's ultimate generation with this feature. I'd like to here what you guys think about it.

As for the intended purpose of doing this is it'll allow you to control your stages if you're careful. It won't count as feeding on a person so if you already dropped to lets say.... stage 3... You won't be increasing your stage with it, but you'll be able to stop yourself from hitting stage 4 before its too late. Obviously it should be balanced so the Blood Frenzy overpowers this regeneration of blood.

Mesmerize
Reference:

I personally would leave it as is but obviously use up your blood meter when you cast it. As it stands right now it feels fairly balanced for a stun that deals 0 damage and requires people to be facing you.

Mist Form
Reference:

I'd leave it as is as well, but have it drain the blood meter as you channel it. Not nearly as much as Blood Frenzy since it also drains magicka but enough to be noticeable.

Blood Scion
Reference:

I hope the appearance is updated so it looks better but that's not what we're here to talk about. With my proposed idea obvious the Night Scion is going to feel very weird, but I know some people are very sad they'll be losing clouding swarm so..... here's a cool idea. Leave the bat morph as is but with the Night Scion treat it like you treated Clouding Swarm.

While Blood Scion is active the ultimate transforms into an advanced version of Vampiric Drain. Think of the Vampiric Drain the Vampire Lord in Skyrim had and you won't be far off. It deals slightly less damage than your average spammable BUT it deals AOE damage on impact. With the 33% health you get back while in Scion form this ability can be spammed into large groups acting as a powerful AOE spammable, but isn't as effective against a single target.

CONCLUSION

This is what I had dreamed up of what the vampire skill line could look like. Let me know what you guys think and I don't mind if you nitpick it into Oblivion. I personally think it'll help ZOS's intended goal of making it so players actually act like vampires instead of sitting around and doing nothing. I know with the the non-vampire ability cost increase some people are already planning on staying stage 1.

Royaji

Yes, let's turn vampire into another version of RP fodder (WW anyone?) which has no place in dungeons and especially trials since feeding there is just not an option.

Just let feeding go completely and come up with something better at this point. It's a mechanic not applicable to MMOs.

Vevvev

Royaji wrote: »

Yes, let's turn vampire into another version of RP fodder (WW anyone?) which has no place in dungeons and especially trials since feeding there is just not an option.

Just let feeding go completely and come up with something better at this point. It's a mechanic not applicable to MMOs.

That's why I suggested what I did with the vampiric drain spell. You won't be able to feed in all situations so you have to have some way in combat to get power back outside of feeding, while not replacing it completely.

XomRhoK

Some time ago i had similar thoughts about possible vampire gameplay, there your vampiric powers drain your vampiric force and you need to feed in the middle of the battle. But without proper feeding mechanic in combat, for example, stun + feed, this idea sounds no so exiting.
Going to your suggestions they have some flaws. To work as intended Vampirism must works like Lycanthropy and player get fixed bar with only vampiric skills, otherwise it can be possible to feed to stage 1, get all goddies and go all non vampiric skills, which don't drain your stages away, or full LA or HA build. As an option all skills and attacks can consume your vampiric force, but this sounds a little strange.
It can be seen from the other side, too prevent stage 1 benefits abuse, player can start every combat at weakest stage 4, and need to feed by Vampiric Drain or some in combat feeding mechanism (stun + feed) to gain more powerful stages and benefits. But it may feels a little bit off for vampiric gameplay, because of too rapid changes in power level.
Overall i like idea to feed/drain life from enemies in combat, but change stages in the middle of combat feels too rapid, in my opinion. I recently wrote my suggestions about vampiric skills and passives, there i suggest in combat feeding mechanic using Mesmerize skill, which gives you healing and ultimate points(in regular form) or prolonged ult(in Blood Scion form). You can read it here.

karekiz

.

Vevvev

XomRhoK wrote: »

Some time ago i had similar thoughts about possible vampire gameplay, there your vampiric powers drain your vampiric force and you need to feed in the middle of the battle. But without proper feeding mechanic in combat, for example, stun + feed, this idea sounds no so exiting.
Going to your suggestions they have some flaws. To work as intended Vampirism must works like Lycanthropy and player get fixed bar with only vampiric skills, otherwise it can be possible to feed to stage 1, get all goddies and go all non vampiric skills, which don't drain your stages away, or full LA or HA build. As an option all skills and attacks can consume your vampiric force, but this sounds a little strange.
It can be seen from the other side, too prevent stage 1 benefits abuse, player can start every combat at weakest stage 4, and need to feed by Vampiric Drain or some in combat feeding mechanism (stun + feed) to gain more powerful stages and benefits. But it may feels a little bit off for vampiric gameplay, because of too rapid changes in power level.
Overall i like idea to feed/drain life from enemies in combat, but change stages in the middle of combat feels too rapid, in my opinion. I recently wrote my suggestions about vampiric skills and passives, there i suggest in combat feeding mechanic using Mesmerize skill, which gives you healing and ultimate points(in regular form) or prolonged ult(in Blood Scion form). You can read it here.

I read your post you linked a while ago and I found it interesting as you make a lot of good points. I accept my post has a lot of issues and I tried to address as many problems as I could. As for the "staying at stage 1" problem you mentioned it is what has been bothering me when I was dreaming this up. Reason I came up with the idea of having the vampire passives also trigger the consumption of the vampire stage timer, but obviously someone can easily overcome that if we stick with ESO's current 6 hour timer and are smart about management. There is also the existence of the Double Bloody Mara, but since its a consumable I think we can all let it pass. Kind of like blood potions in Skyrim.

As for changing vampire stages in combat I actually feel like that's a bad idea... which is why I felt like the drain spell accompanying this idea should be capped at your current stage. I do however love that you mentioned mesmerize though as I originally believed it'd be a stun that'd allow you to feed off people without getting a bounty! I was sad to learn they just made it your average stun with and AOE effect, but I do think its cool it only effects people looking at you.

In my original post I did forget to include the melee spammable ability, which I personally think should have the health morph changed to a stamina one. Would give stamina builds something to use, but I can see ZOS are making it the opposite side of the coin from werewolf. Ah well...