Mag Damage Support Sets Hurt Overall DPS Balance

Marteene

Sets like Martial Knowledge, Z'enn, and now Roaring Opportunist are sets that benefit the entire group but at the cost of magicka DPS (already falling well behind stam), it also forces healers into pseudo damage roles on top of healing in many groups. These sets will always leave mag DPS behind or be used at the cost of actual healing sets.

LiquidPony

Other Opinion.

I don't really understand the question.

Don't support run "stam DPS sets" too? Alkosh? Hircine? Morag Tong? Powerful Assault?

Shantu

I don't understand the point of this poll. If you don't like the sets, don't use them. It's not like there aren't a hundred other sets to choose from.

Marteene

LiquidPony wrote: »

I don't really understand the question.

Don't support run "stam DPS sets" too? Alkosh? Hircine? Morag Tong? Powerful Assault?

Alkosh has been essentially relegated to tanks even though its technically a strong DPS set still, PA augments everyone and isnt a DPS set nor is PA or hircines, and morag tong is a similar offender to the mag ones

LiquidPony

Other Opinion.

Marteene wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

I don't really understand the question.

Don't support run "stam DPS sets" too? Alkosh? Hircine? Morag Tong? Powerful Assault?

Alkosh has been essentially relegated to tanks even though its technically a strong DPS set still, PA augments everyone and isnt a DPS set nor is PA or hircines, and morag tong is a similar offender to the mag ones

How is PA not a "DPS set"? If PA isn't a DPS set, then neither are Z'en's Redress or Martial Knowledge.

Marteene

Shantu wrote: »

I don't understand the point of this poll. If you don't like the sets, don't use them. It's not like there aren't a hundred other sets to choose from.

For higher DPS you start to run out of sets and classes to effectively run. To complete Godlslayer you dont get to run sets you do or dont like. You're restricted by what gets the absolute highest DPS. ZOS seems to want mag to run group support sets but most serious groups wont want to sacrifice DPS and will ask that the healers and tanks run these damage support sets instead leaving mag DPS stale and without getting any new sets for 2 years at a time.

Marteene

LiquidPony wrote: »

Marteene wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

I don't really understand the question.

Don't support run "stam DPS sets" too? Alkosh? Hircine? Morag Tong? Powerful Assault?

Alkosh has been essentially relegated to tanks even though its technically a strong DPS set still, PA augments everyone and isnt a DPS set nor is PA or hircines, and morag tong is a similar offender to the mag ones

How is PA not a "DPS set"? If PA isn't a DPS set, then neither are Z'en's Redress or Martial Knowledge.

(2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(5 items) When you cast an Assault ability, you and up to 3 allies within 15 meters gain 164 Weapon Damage and Spell Damage for 15 seconds.

Now that Caltrops is no longer a viable DPS skill this set doesnt really count as one. Vigor and Warhorn are much more prevalently used support skills. Z'en and MK have the capability to be used as part of an effective damage rotation, PA does not.

LiquidPony

Other Opinion.

Marteene wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Marteene wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

I don't really understand the question.

Don't support run "stam DPS sets" too? Alkosh? Hircine? Morag Tong? Powerful Assault?

Alkosh has been essentially relegated to tanks even though its technically a strong DPS set still, PA augments everyone and isnt a DPS set nor is PA or hircines, and morag tong is a similar offender to the mag ones

How is PA not a "DPS set"? If PA isn't a DPS set, then neither are Z'en's Redress or Martial Knowledge.

(2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(5 items) When you cast an Assault ability, you and up to 3 allies within 15 meters gain 164 Weapon Damage and Spell Damage for 15 seconds.

Now that Caltrops is no longer a viable DPS skill this set doesnt really count as one. Vigor and Warhorn are much more prevalently used support skills. Z'en and MK have the capability to be used as part of an effective damage rotation, PA does not.

Caltrops is not optimal but it's still viable.

By the same logic, most optimal magDPS builds aren't using enough target-applied DoTs to keep Z'en fully procced, are they?

UntilValhalla13

I mean, good healers don't really need to run full healing sets. It's overkill. That's why they run zen's, martial knowledge, etc. There's only so many healing skills you can do before you're just standing there heavy attacking. Support roles run the above listed sets so that the dps don't have to, and can optimize for their job, which is killing stuff.

You also don't see as many stam in trials as much anymore, with mag dks and necros still pulling borderline equal numbers but without sacrificing being stuck in melee range for busy fights like vas hm or vcr+3

StrangusMaximus

What? How are these sets benefiting stam at the expense of magicka dps? They boost all dps - including mag - not just stam. And mag's numbers are pretty on par with stam for the time being. Not sure I understand the purpose of this poll.

Groups of all magicka are incredibly viable and competitive right now - there have been several all mag godslayer groups. In fact, sometimes it's more optimal to have a group of all mag, as opposed to a group mix of mag and stam. Particularly in trials like vAS and vCR, mag is almost always preferred.

You can have an opinion about healers running dps support sets (ie. MK/Z'en) as opposed to healing sets, but that's a separate issue from a gap between magicka and stamina.

ATreeGnome

Other Opinion.

Marteene wrote: »

Sets like Martial Knowledge, Z'enn, and now Roaring Opportunist are sets that benefit the entire group but at the cost of magicka DPS (already falling well behind stam), it also forces healers into pseudo damage roles on top of healing in many groups. These sets will always leave mag DPS behind or be used at the cost of actual healing sets.

Any optimal group is going to have the supports run support sets, so DPS are going to get the same benefit no matter if they are magicka or stamina. Nearly all of the "actual healing sets" in the game are pretty much garbage anyway, so an optimized group isn't going to run them either. I don't see how this favors stamina over magicka.

Runefang

If I understand the basis of the question its that Mag DPS aren't getting strong sets because they continue to be geared heavily towards being run by support roles instead?

So you're arguing Mag DPS need strong sets to improve their DPS instead of benefiting the group?

Lilly_Elessa

Other Opinion.

Multi-part answer to this confused question;
1. Support sets do not hurt MagDPS's dps. They give Mag DPS less options, which is disappointing, but not harmful. Most high/highest DPS I personally know and play with do happen to be mag DPS.
2. Sets like Martial Knowledge and Z'en's hurt healers, by making them perform tasks consistently that are not natural to their innate role tasks (or in the case of MK, that were not meant to be performed consistently at all). These sets, while useful to the group, are generally extremely un-fun for your healer/support to play.
3. Sets like Roaring Opportunist and Infallible Aether/Mage are fantastic for healers/support, by providing more powerful options, to the role with the least sets to choose from, that play off of mechanics that we regularly use. These sets are both very fun, and very helpful to the group as a whole.
4. Healing is not just about cranking out the green numbers in ESO. Healing in ESO is more like being a bard elsewhere: Your aim is to provide support for your group, which happens to include healing. But you should also be buffing group damage, restoring resources, providing damage reduction, and debuffing enemies.
5. Reread #3: Healers have less sets than other roles. Unfortunately new sets that apply to us at all sometimes have to come from sets that should have been for MagDPS, because we invariably wear light armor and want magicka sets. And not every healer set is good, our good sets can be counted on your fingers.
6. Not all Stam sets are good either. StamDPS has more sets... But so many of them are straight up garbage. Stam has to sift through more junk to find their decent sets.


I understand the disappointment at wanting a new shiny DPS set out of the upcoming trial, but you can only wear 2 5-piece sets anyways, and it's not like there is a shortage of other magDPS sets to wear. Even if the upcoming set was a more personal damage focused set instead of a support set, there's no promise that it would actually be desirable set. It could have been another Destructive Mage, Moondancer, Auroran's Thunder, Moon Hunter...

So, tldr no?

Iskiab

Other Opinion.

There’s always the option of not running a support set. A lot of support sets aren’t worth it, that’s why it can be optimal to run 3 dps.

Foxic

Runefang wrote: »

If I understand the basis of the question its that Mag DPS aren't getting strong sets because they continue to be geared heavily towards being run by support roles instead?

So you're arguing Mag DPS need strong sets to improve their DPS instead of benefiting the group?

correct, currently stam has quite a few sets that are way better than anything mag has. Lokkestiz, relequen, and maarselok mainly

usmcjdking

The DPS amp sets get put onto healers/tanks for a multitude of different reasons.

1) Healing in this game is hard for the wrong reasons. The difficulty in healing is often where your heals are, not what they are and when they are. This actually puts the onus on the DPS/Tanks to ensure they are within the healer's heal box (if you will).

2) Tanking in this game is hard for the wrong reasons. The tank variety is poor to begin with - the brawler offtank can't exist in endgame because he needs to be absurdly tanky as well with a disgusting amount of utility skills available. The immovable godtank has been dead since pre-Morrowind. Tanking roles need variance and content needs to support that variance. A good clinical example is honestly PVP small groups.

3) Support DPS have no role because DPS requirements are too high. In almost every RPG, a DPS support is usually a damage amper who brings good sustain, decent tankability, a lot of skill flexibility and reasonable damage to boot. ESOers and the ZOS Dev team are also a bit naïve when they call tanks/healers supports - those are CORE roles. Core roles are roles that you cannot get by without having. You cannot do VSS without healers, tanks and DPS (i.e. cores), but you can do it without support. Supporting - supported relationship =/= support. This is a fundamental design flaw that is hindered by intense DPS requirements, shortsighted design decisions and laughably low raid caps for an MMO of this size, population, and professional caliber.

Skjaldbjorn

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

If I understand the basis of the question its that Mag DPS aren't getting strong sets because they continue to be geared heavily towards being run by support roles instead?

So you're arguing Mag DPS need strong sets to improve their DPS instead of benefiting the group?

correct, currently stam has quite a few sets that are way better than anything mag has. Lokkestiz, relequen, and maarselok mainly

Roaring Opportunist likely makes Lokke a dead set. Don't forget that.

LiquidPony

Other Opinion.

usmcjdking wrote: »

The DPS amp sets get put onto healers/tanks for a multitude of different reasons.

1) Healing in this game is hard for the wrong reasons. The difficulty in healing is often where your heals are, not what they are and when they are. This actually puts the onus on the DPS/Tanks to ensure they are within the healer's heal box (if you will).

2) Tanking in this game is hard for the wrong reasons. The tank variety is poor to begin with - the brawler offtank can't exist in endgame because he needs to be absurdly tanky as well with a disgusting amount of utility skills available. The immovable godtank has been dead since pre-Morrowind. Tanking roles need variance and content needs to support that variance. A good clinical example is honestly PVP small groups.

3) Support DPS have no role because DPS requirements are too high. In almost every RPG, a DPS support is usually a damage amper who brings good sustain, decent tankability, a lot of skill flexibility and reasonable damage to boot. ESOers and the ZOS Dev team are also a bit naïve when they call tanks/healers supports - those are CORE roles. Core roles are roles that you cannot get by without having. You cannot do VSS without healers, tanks and DPS (i.e. cores), but you can do it without support. Supporting - supported relationship =/= support. This is a fundamental design flaw that is hindered by intense DPS requirements, shortsighted design decisions and laughably low raid caps for an MMO of this size, population, and professional caliber.

I see what you're saying but I feel like this is a bit of an oversimplification.

For instance, in my Sunspire group, I think our comp would be accurately portrayed as:

1 tank
1 healer
3 "support"
7 DPS

Where the "support" were:

1 DK "offtank" whose role was primarily DPS on Lokke and Yolo and trash, with some support mixed in (Alkosh, Warhorn, Barrier, Purge, a bit of taunting), responsible for holding statues on Nahvii.

1 Stamplar "DPS" whose role was primarily DPS on Lokke and Yolo trash, with some support mixed in (War Machine, heals, purge, etc.), responsible for the add pulls on Nahvii as 3rd tank

1 Necro "healer" whose role was primarily DPS applying MK/Z'en, only really applying Combat Prayer and the occasional Springs.

I think you see a fair bit of this in a variety of content, where the "offtank" is in many cases just a DPS and the "off healer" is, at least these days, just a DPS in MK/Z'en who runs Combat Prayer (sometimes).

So yeah the "default raid comp" might be 2 tanks, 2 healers, 8 DPS ... but I think in practice there's quite a bit of variation in what that means.

Foxic

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

If I understand the basis of the question its that Mag DPS aren't getting strong sets because they continue to be geared heavily towards being run by support roles instead?

So you're arguing Mag DPS need strong sets to improve their DPS instead of benefiting the group?

correct, currently stam has quite a few sets that are way better than anything mag has. Lokkestiz, relequen, and maarselok mainly

Roaring Opportunist likely makes Lokke a dead set. Don't forget that.

Depending on its uptime yeah, which just gives Stam the option to run another full damage set

Septimus_Magna

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

If I understand the basis of the question its that Mag DPS aren't getting strong sets because they continue to be geared heavily towards being run by support roles instead?

So you're arguing Mag DPS need strong sets to improve their DPS instead of benefiting the group?

correct, currently stam has quite a few sets that are way better than anything mag has. Lokkestiz, relequen, and maarselok mainly

Roaring Opportunist likely makes Lokke a dead set. Don't forget that.

Depending on its uptime yeah, which just gives Stam the option to run another full damage set

In the case the up-time is good enough, stam DDs get an additional 3pc and 5pc bonus, assuming most stam DDs run Lokke+Relequen. On the other side, mag DDs get buffed by major slayer which is the strongest buff in the game.

So wouldnt it be buffing mag DDs more than stam DDs who currently already have access to major slayer with Lokke?

Foxic

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

If I understand the basis of the question its that Mag DPS aren't getting strong sets because they continue to be geared heavily towards being run by support roles instead?

So you're arguing Mag DPS need strong sets to improve their DPS instead of benefiting the group?

correct, currently stam has quite a few sets that are way better than anything mag has. Lokkestiz, relequen, and maarselok mainly

Roaring Opportunist likely makes Lokke a dead set. Don't forget that.

Depending on its uptime yeah, which just gives Stam the option to run another full damage set

In the case the up-time is good enough, stam DDs get an additional 3pc and 5pc bonus, assuming most stam DDs run Lokke+Relequen. On the other side, mag DDs get buffed by major slayer which is the strongest buff in the game.

So wouldnt it be buffing mag DDs more than stam DDs who currently already have access to major slayer with Lokke?

Yes the introduction of the set in general while used on a support will give Magicka some more DPS. Though that doesn't change the original problem of Stam having much better set options in general than mag.

Especially with the proposed light attack changes hitting mag dps harder than stam

azjuwelz

Other Opinion.

I think it's a more complicated question than this poll has answers for.

It depends on the group, the content, and the goal.

Other than that, I mostly agree with Lilly above.

I'm far more concerned about the new light/heavy proposed changes and their effect on all roles.