Skill, APM And Zos Got It Right

BrokenGameMechanics

I think ZOS is moving this in the right direction.

A Skill gap should exist. The better player should win most of the time. The question is the nature of the gap. Right now it is mindless twitch oriented. Constant Skllls weaved with LA and Blocks. Even if you can do it, do you really want to. Do you really want to spend a few hours constantly twitching LAs and Blocks, essentially a button press every 500ms? Do you want that to be the measure of a Skilled Player in ESO? Should the best players be the ones content to LA and Block weave for hours at a time?

I suspect most can do it; most do not want to do it. Mindless. There are so many better options upon which to build the skill gap. Being able in the heat of battle to select the proper sequencing of Skills and Combos for example is a much better Skill quantifier.

A real problem though is the limited number of Skills along with the limiting Skill Bar size. This severely limits variation; hence Skill play (non-twitch skill play). In effect there in only 1 combo for a given combat situation. In the competitor MMO BDO a toon has much more variety of Skills, which works seamlessly on consoles. Skill is not only twitch APM but the proper selection of which combo sequence for a given combat situation. In my mind a MUCH better basis upon which to have a Skill Gap.

And I think this is where this new direction will flounder. If weave twitching is de-emphasized, a blessed relief, then what fills the gap? The paucity of skills and skill bars leaves almost little to no variation.

For example, assume a bread and butter (true) stam Warden where LA weaving is now effectively optional. In the context of being able to attack freely. Bird-1sec-Bird-1sec-Bird-1sec-Heavy .... repeat. Wow boring. An advance combo sequence throws in a Shalks every third press. Compare and contrast with BDO, there are literally dozen or more combat combos I have a split second to select and adjust on the fly.

I think this is in the right direction but woefully incomplete. LA/Block weaving is mindless and twitching for sake of twitching. I should explicitly decide to block here in lieu of attacking there. Now it is "want to be a good player" block spam or LA between every skill. Being able to spam block should not be yard stick for ESO skilled play.

De-emphasising the twitch weaving must be follows on with ESO increasing the size of the Skill pool as well as the Skill bar slots. There needs to be much more variety on Skills to select form for any given GCD. 7-8 Attack options or more, not the current 2. There should be a plethora of Skill Combos a skilled player needs to pick from in a split second. A Classes Skills (Attack or Defensive) should have some associated characteristic that interact so as each combo sequence is truly different.

In summary, removing mindless twitch as the basis for Skill is correct. But it needs to be replaced with more variation and play options.

John_Falstaff

I hope you've given some thought to the notion that the game is also present on consoles and it imposes a limitation on the number of skills available to players. So whole that idea about turning ESO into some other game - I'm intentionally not commenting on how good or bad it is - is stillborn.

BrokenGameMechanics

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I hope you've given some thought to the notion that the game is also present on consoles and it imposes a limitation on the number of skills available to players. So whole that idea about turning ESO into some other game - I'm intentionally not commenting on how good or bad it is - is stillborn.

I did mention, maybe not explicitly enough, that despite having many more skills available to a class it all works seamlessly on a console controller. Seriously seamless, smooth and fast without really any awkwardness whatsoever. Surprising but true. Maybe some others will chime in to confirm as well. But I assure you console could easily support more active skills.

In addition, of course we don't want to be just like another game, I am only using the other game to show console could support a larger active skill pool without issue. And finally, that in lieu of mindless intra-gcd twitch requirements, to move towards richer skill sequencing variation and combos.

NoodleESO

How many times are we going to point fingers at all the things we think are causing a skill gap before they ruin the game.

Gear, mechanics, abilities, you name it is been nerfed because of this witch hunt. The truth is people need to learn how to play this game like so many others were able to do, it’s not impossible.

Scion_of_Yggdrasil

YES!

I would actually like if all animations were forced to play to completion. Skill is not twitching, like OP mentioned, skill is selecting the right skill at the right time. Of course, controller usage requires some coordination and such, but weaving is not complicated, it is just physically demanding. ESO skill should be completely separate from physical ability/willingness to subject your hands and fingers to carpal tunnel. I mostly refuse to weave, some players CANT. Put the skill gap elsewhere.

Additionally, having 2 more skill bars, opened when you block, would make combat way more diverse. Now you can feasibly slot all the weapon skills you want, and class skills, or whatever your heart dreams of. Roles will still matter, but now more technical/versatile players can shine. Even just having a 3rd "block" skill bar that is shared between both main bars (so you would be discouraged from setting weapon skills on the block bar, lest you swap bars and have the wrong weapon in hand) would be an improvement. If there are more skills readily available during combat, its harder to anticipate your opponent, and dungeons just got a whole lot less repetitive. New skill gap!

BrokenGameMechanics

NoodleESO wrote: »

How many times are we going to point fingers at all the things we think are causing a skill gap before they ruin the game.

I hear, I really do. The endless lurching back and forth ... worth it of course of at the end the it actually did get a whole lot better.

Basically ZOS was saying, "we are tuning down weaving because a large part of the population lack the time, capability or inclination to practice it." And really for most people it is no more than that practice.

My point is that yea, I've practiced it. I do it. But I gain no satisfaction out of being required to so to be competitive. It is not skill is just mindless rote. I can do it, but do I really want to. Well no. I think there are better ways to capture skilled play.

AMeanOne

"Twitch weaving" lol. More bars of skills when you block would be incredibly clunky, I've played games like that.

FakeFox

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

Do you really want to spend a few hours constantly twitching LAs and Blocks, essentially a button press every 500ms?

Yes. Absolutely, two button presses per second should not be too much to ask for. It is a core of ESOs gameplay for six years now and I do not want to see it change.

BrokenGameMechanics

AMeanOne wrote: »

"Twitch weaving" lol. More bars of skills when you block would be incredibly clunky, I've played games like that.

Well everyone's mileage may vary of course. Using the example, in BDO it is just seamless and works fine. It is FAR easier to more through sequences of skills in BDO then it is to repetitive twitch weave in ESO in the current state of both games.

And frankly combat is a whole jump in level of interesting as a result.

BrokenGameMechanics

FakeFox wrote: »

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

Do you really want to spend a few hours constantly twitching LAs and Blocks, essentially a button press every 500ms?

Yes. Absolutely, two button presses per second should not be too much to ask for. It is a core of ESOs gameplay for six years now and I do not want to see it change.

So for example, totally hypothetical, you would not be on board with dropping the GCD to 500ms and then in lieu pressing the same button over and over and over every 1000ms each and every button press could be a different skill, attack, block or roll?

Modulo sets with LA proc conditions etc. If ZOS were to roll the LA damage into the Skills then one would get the same outcome from 1 button per second vs 2 buttons per second. The only thing that the extra endlessly repeatitive LA every other press does at the end of the day is separate folks into those who can't, can but mostly can't be bothered, and those who do for hours and hours and we then call that "Skill" gradation. Ok sure. But I still think its mainly mindless.

YandereGirlfriend

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

So for example, totally hypothetical, you would not be on board with dropping the GCD to 500ms and then in lieu pressing the same button over and over and over every 1000ms each and every button press could be a different skill, attack, block or roll?

This is the solution that I've been proposing and I do think that it would be the best of both worlds.

People with the inclination could still use every GCD and get the same number of actions that they do on Live and you could add different "comboing" effects for using different skills/actions in different orders.

Say, using a Light Attack before a skill reduces the cost of that skill by 10% or something? Or using skills in succession gradually increases the damage of the subsequent skills but also the cost to cast them? Or every offensive action increases the damage of your next Heavy Attack, up to +100% so that you wouldn't just spam Heavy Attack but could also use them in rotations in PvE or as parts of longer combos in PvP. Things like that.

Drdeath20

A almost turned based combat system of moves and counter moves. Pretty much chess. No thanks i want to actually feel like there is a human element to playing.

Royaji

It is of course nice and dandy to have "skill" in ESO based around "what" you are doing instead of "how" you are doing it, but so are fluffy unicorns and rainbow ponies. Just as realistic too.

As you say, there is not enough skills on your bar to allow any kind of skillful dynamic decision making, there is pretty much zero interaction between skills, there is not enough combat situations variety to faciliate multiple optimal approaches. Even something as simple as information provided in the UI is not remotely sufficient to allow players to make split second meaningful decisions. This list can go on.

Their one attempt to introduce a dynamic combat modifier - off balance system - is still a tremendous failure. Take a look at the feedback thread for PTS combat changes and the responses to question "When targets became Off Balance, what sort of attacks did you utilize against them, if any? Were you able to identify any potent effects that Off Balance enabled for you?" Gina has posed. They are pretty unanimous. "I didn't care about off balance". Off balance is messy to track on PC where people have addons, imagine how fun it is to deal with on consoles?

A "skill" system based around "what" you are doing would be just peachy, it's just not something you can expect to see added to a six-year-old MMO which has pretty much no groundwork laid down for such system.

Barbaran

From a pvp stand point
It's simple. Fix the preformance and things will see more balanced.
Skills will not be registering 'out of nowhere all at once'.
They made this game as a twitch, ACTION combat MMO.
If you are a higher tier fighter ( someone who can successfully 1vx and 1v1) you realize that skill is definitely needed.
You have to every second or so decide if you are going to go defensive, offensive, block, roll Dodge, what combo to go into, when to back off and use movement and break Loss, etc.

THAT is the skill gap. Are you going to actually FIGHT someone, or are you going to roll around with 20 other people and all press 1 or two skills collectively as a group and kill other groups of people while relying on sustain and heals coming from other players and mitigating damage because you are part of a large group with different roles.

And guess what, if you are in a group build and you get caught fighting someone built for single target DPS who constantly is fighting out numbered and has learnt how to mitigate and deal damage, your going to die, AS YOU SHOULD.

The issue is group players want to still be a badass when alone. That's not the way the game was designed.
Make your choice, effective in groups or effective solo/very small groups.
Simple as that

BrokenGameMechanics

Barbaran wrote: »

From a pvp stand point
It's simple. Fix the preformance and things will see more balanced.
Skills will not be registering 'out of nowhere all at once'.
They made this game as a twitch, ACTION combat MMO.
If you are a higher tier fighter ( someone who can successfully 1vx and 1v1) you realize that skill is definitely needed.
You have to every second or so decide if you are going to go defensive, offensive, block, roll Dodge, what combo to go into, when to back off and use movement and break Loss, etc.

OK. So yes, need to constantly decide to go defensive, offensive, block, roll or what combo ... etc No one is disagreeing with that ... at all. There are two points here: 1) with all of the above tactical happening what does gratuitous, repetitive LA twitching incessantly have to do with any of it (except the obvious current DPS boost and later resource return). 2) with Skill expansion would only enrich the experience of going defensive, offensive, block or roll or combo or ... as there would be more variety in how one performs each aspect.

TheFM

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

Do you really want to spend a few hours constantly twitching LAs and Blocks, essentially a button press every 500ms?

Yes. Absolutely, two button presses per second should not be too much to ask for. It is a core of ESOs gameplay for six years now and I do not want to see it change.

So for example, totally hypothetical, you would not be on board with dropping the GCD to 500ms and then in lieu pressing the same button over and over and over every 1000ms each and every button press could be a different skill, attack, block or roll?

Modulo sets with LA proc conditions etc. If ZOS were to roll the LA damage into the Skills then one would get the same outcome from 1 button per second vs 2 buttons per second. The only thing that the extra endlessly repeatitive LA every other press does at the end of the day is separate folks into those who can't, can but mostly can't be bothered, and those who do for hours and hours and we then call that "Skill" gradation. Ok sure. But I still think its mainly mindless.

One button press per second is MIND NUMBINGLY slow, wtaf, who wants to play like that xD.

Fur_like_snow

Go on PTS and parse a few times. Compare that to your live parse. If your DPS went up then you have a good argument to be in favor of these changes. If it went down then it’s just more ceiling lowering for those players.

BrokenGameMechanics

TheFM wrote: »

One button press per second is MIND NUMBINGLY slow, wtaf, who wants to play like that xD.

Sigh, that was a hypothetical to demonstrate the point that there is no utility to weaving from combat perspective. And you are 100% correct, in effect the only reason why ZOS really has it there is because 1 per second is to slow, HENCE, filling it in with mindless twitch to make it LOOK like you are actively doing something.

And that is why I also said that the FATAL flaw in this new approach is exactly that. When they de-emphasis LAs they well in effect become optional. Why? Well because many people build high sustain builds with good regen. And most fights just don't last that long. Ergo, many won't even bother LA weaving until the fight lingers and resources start to get low. And because many will NOT weave, there will end being a ton of complaints about how combat is boring 1-press every second, which is too long.

So for everyone:

1. ZOS de-emphasises LA weaving making it de-facto OPTIONAL in most situations in PVE and PVP.
2. Ergo most, even experienced players will generally not bother doing sustain weaving.
3. Thus everyone now REALLY REALLY notices there is no real there there in combat as it will become even more obvious that you are just pressing the same one, two or three buttons, one per second. Why? because you will not need to weave to achieve a DPS gap and a lot of combat situations are over before you run out of resources or heck just quaff a trash pot every 45 sec and get your sustain as opposed to carpel sustain weaving.
4. As this, I believe, will be a fatal flaw in this new approach, AN answer, not necessarily THEE answer, is for ZOS to enhance the skill pool in new and interesting ways.

Daimmyo

Make ESO turn-based tactical RPG.

Seriously!

Barbaran

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

Barbaran wrote: »

From a pvp stand point
It's simple. Fix the preformance and things will see more balanced.
Skills will not be registering 'out of nowhere all at once'.
They made this game as a twitch, ACTION combat MMO.
If you are a higher tier fighter ( someone who can successfully 1vx and 1v1) you realize that skill is definitely needed.
You have to every second or so decide if you are going to go defensive, offensive, block, roll Dodge, what combo to go into, when to back off and use movement and break Loss, etc.

OK. So yes, need to constantly decide to go defensive, offensive, block, roll or what combo ... etc No one is disagreeing with that ... at all. There are two points here: 1) with all of the above tactical happening what does gratuitous, repetitive LA twitching incessantly have to do with any of it (except the obvious current DPS boost and later resource return). 2) with Skill expansion would only enrich the experience of going defensive, offensive, block or roll or combo or ... as there would be more variety in how one performs each aspect.

1) The 'twitch' adds dps yes, but it also makes you stay on target... A developed skill. Much like a FPS ( like cod) you have to stay on target, and those that Excel at that are rewarded with more kills and damage. Same with movement, with great movement you survive longer.
If you can't stay on target to be able to 'twitch' and get weaves in between your skills, then you need to practice more. That's not bashing or insulting anyone, it's fact.

2) skill expansion is awesome... But console players don't have anymore buttons that can be used. ESO was designed with console in mind, we don't have a keyboard with endless buttons and combinations, that's why MMOs are limited on console since most of those games don't take that into consideration. So that idea doesn't work.

So, your telling me you'd be happy with them upping skill dmg and reducing weaving dmg?
So you get hit with a 5-6K dizzy , but after the update you'd be fine with a 7-8K dizzy? Something tells me that people will be on here complaining very fast

Royaji

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

So for everyone:

1. ZOS de-emphasises LA weaving making it de-facto OPTIONAL in most situations in PVE and PVP.
2. Ergo most, even experienced players will generally not bother doing sustain weaving.
3. Thus everyone now REALLY REALLY notices there is no real there there in combat as it will become even more obvious that you are just pressing the same one, two or three buttons, one per second. Why? because you will not need to weave to achieve a DPS gap and a lot of combat situations are over before you run out of resources or heck just quaff a trash pot every 45 sec and get your sustain as opposed to carpel sustain weaving.
4. As this, I believe, will be a fatal flaw in this new approach, AN answer, not necessarily THEE answer, is for ZOS to enhance the skill pool in new and interesting ways.

That would have been a great argument if your point "1)" wasn't immediately flawed. ZOS did nothing to de-emphasise weaving. Neither did they state that de-emphasising weaving is one of their goals.

Their stated goal is to reduce the gap. Make it so weaving does not give such a great advantage. Not remove weaving entirely. Just avoid the situation where weaving gets 10-15k extra DPS compared to not weaving.

Not even talking about the part where their proposed changes fail miserably to meet this goal and actually even increase the importance of weaving. If you think that weaving is going to be optional if proposed changes were to go live, you are sorely mistaken. 400 recovery can be converted into a lot of damage.

iCaliban

NoodleESO wrote: »

How many times are we going to point fingers at all the things we think are causing a skill gap before they ruin the game.

Gear, mechanics, abilities, you name it is been nerfed because of this witch hunt. The truth is people need to learn how to play this game like so many others were able to do, it’s not impossible.

Its not even HARD. Nothing short of god slayer or some very specific hard modes requires much effort.

We have people out there beating dark souls on drum sets and yet we need to nerf mmo combat? Gtfo people

FakeFox

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

Do you really want to spend a few hours constantly twitching LAs and Blocks, essentially a button press every 500ms?

Yes. Absolutely, two button presses per second should not be too much to ask for. It is a core of ESOs gameplay for six years now and I do not want to see it change.

So for example, totally hypothetical, you would not be on board with dropping the GCD to 500ms and then in lieu pressing the same button over and over and over every 1000ms each and every button press could be a different skill, attack, block or roll?

Modulo sets with LA proc conditions etc. If ZOS were to roll the LA damage into the Skills then one would get the same outcome from 1 button per second vs 2 buttons per second. The only thing that the extra endlessly repeatitive LA every other press does at the end of the day is separate folks into those who can't, can but mostly can't be bothered, and those who do for hours and hours and we then call that "Skill" gradation. Ok sure. But I still think its mainly mindless.

The current system is not without flaws. A lot of them come from ZOS already dumbing down rotations and weaving significantly. But the core concept of separating skills and not GCD bound actions is, in my opinion, great. I agree that weaving can be rather boring, but the fix to that should not be removing it. My suggestion would be to remove the queuing of skills and light/heavy attacks, so that it becomes more dependent on good timing.

PvE combat is in it's core extremely predictable and learning those patterns and playing accordingly in a rather static fashion is the core of being successful in this environment. You can not base the difficulty of a rotation on quick and complex decision making if there are no decisions to be made. You can certainly see this as a flaw with ESO, but I see it as a inevitable downside of this type of game. Hence why I also do not understand the comparison to BDO here. Both games are fantasy MMORPGs but that is basically where it ends.

TheFM

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

One button press per second is MIND NUMBINGLY slow, wtaf, who wants to play like that xD.

Sigh, that was a hypothetical to demonstrate the point that there is no utility to weaving from combat perspective. And you are 100% correct, in effect the only reason why ZOS really has it there is because 1 per second is to slow, HENCE, filling it in with mindless twitch to make it LOOK like you are actively doing something.

And that is why I also said that the FATAL flaw in this new approach is exactly that. When they de-emphasis LAs they well in effect become optional. Why? Well because many people build high sustain builds with good regen. And most fights just don't last that long. Ergo, many won't even bother LA weaving until the fight lingers and resources start to get low. And because many will NOT weave, there will end being a ton of complaints about how combat is boring 1-press every second, which is too long.

So for everyone:

1. ZOS de-emphasises LA weaving making it de-facto OPTIONAL in most situations in PVE and PVP.
2. Ergo most, even experienced players will generally not bother doing sustain weaving.
3. Thus everyone now REALLY REALLY notices there is no real there there in combat as it will become even more obvious that you are just pressing the same one, two or three buttons, one per second. Why? because you will not need to weave to achieve a DPS gap and a lot of combat situations are over before you run out of resources or heck just quaff a trash pot every 45 sec and get your sustain as opposed to carpel sustain weaving.
4. As this, I believe, will be a fatal flaw in this new approach, AN answer, not necessarily THEE answer, is for ZOS to enhance the skill pool in new and interesting ways.

It will not be optional. You will be required to drop your regen glyphs and forced to put damage glyphs on, and you will be forced to weave otherwise you will be doing even LESS damage than before. All they needed to do was increase heavy a tiny bit, decrease light a tiny bit, done. Not this convoluted mess that is going to throw balance into a shredder for years to come, if the game makes it that far because no one wants to have been practicing for years only to be told " your practicing is a problem, and the fact that you got better is a problem too ".

Drdeath20

Most players cannot complete the hardest content as is. Why would lowering everyones dps be a good idea? Take into account all the other problems that come from these changes.

price101610

Doesn’t twitching imply an involuntary muscle contraction, versus weaving, which involves conscious effort. Even after developing muscle memory and skill, I don’t think I could play this game while unconscious like OP suggests.

nublife01

Literally none of you play stamblades or are ignorant to the mechanics of the class. These changes render our pvp pressure damage from *** poor to completely inexistent. ZOS has already nerfed our core abilities to clunky incoherence, gave back only half of are ulti as some sort of sick joke, nerfed block and off balance (tactician stun) which affects our class grossly more than any other, and have bugged shadowy disguise so it only works half the time. What more do these ignorant dswing spammers want from us? Are you literally going agree with the nerf to literally the only thing that hasn't been nerfed about the stamina class other than dodge roll? Almost all of us have changed classes or quit the game already. Like I mean I guess why stop there right?

Dusk_Coven

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

A real problem though is the limited number of Skills along with the limiting Skill Bar size.

Yes it can increase variety of action, etcetera, but increasing the bar size is a risky move for various reasons.

In many games where you have a lot of skills you can press, you end up watching your bar for the cooldowns instead of watching the action on the screen. Or your keybinds can get so clunky that you have to look down on your keyboard or take your hand off your mouse to access the other side of your keyboard. ESO doesn't even allow alt-# ctrl-# and shift-# combos to concentrate button presses which would help an increased bar size run more smoothly.

Also, it really depends on the TYPE of skills you can put on the bar. Here there is the possibility of lots of passives, for example. Someone could end up with their same short rotation, but with more passives (while skill X is slotted you get blah blah blah benefit) and pets stacked on top of everything. And for sure someone's going to have some kind of extreme build to stack bonuses and shields and still have slots left over for enough fighting.

One of ESO's strengths is the variety of builds but the inability to manage / foresee the permutations is also a weakness. You can already see it in the various troll builds and teams in PvP. When there is so much variety, limiting the number of skills is in fact necessary to keep things from being too out of control. ZOS keeps putting out new skills and sets and it just steadily gets out of hand.

Unknown_Redemption

Bar Swap, Light Attack, Skill, Bash ... thats an average of 4 actions per second (250ms).
Now add required movement and other actions and you easily go over 200 APM.

This change is overdue.

eso_lags

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

I think ZOS is moving this in the right direction.

A Skill gap should exist. The better player should win most of the time. The question is the nature of the gap. Right now it is mindless twitch oriented. Constant Skllls weaved with LA and Blocks. Even if you can do it, do you really want to. Do you really want to spend a few hours constantly twitching LAs and Blocks, essentially a button press every 500ms? Do you want that to be the measure of a Skilled Player in ESO? Should the best players be the ones content to LA and Block weave for hours at a time?

I suspect most can do it; most do not want to do it. Mindless. There are so many better options upon which to build the skill gap. Being able in the heat of battle to select the proper sequencing of Skills and Combos for example is a much better Skill quantifier.

A real problem though is the limited number of Skills along with the limiting Skill Bar size. This severely limits variation; hence Skill play (non-twitch skill play). In effect there in only 1 combo for a given combat situation. In the competitor MMO BDO a toon has much more variety of Skills, which works seamlessly on consoles. Skill is not only twitch APM but the proper selection of which combo sequence for a given combat situation. In my mind a MUCH better basis upon which to have a Skill Gap.

And I think this is where this new direction will flounder. If weave twitching is de-emphasized, a blessed relief, then what fills the gap? The paucity of skills and skill bars leaves almost little to no variation.

For example, assume a bread and butter (true) stam Warden where LA weaving is now effectively optional. In the context of being able to attack freely. Bird-1sec-Bird-1sec-Bird-1sec-Heavy .... repeat. Wow boring. An advance combo sequence throws in a Shalks every third press. Compare and contrast with BDO, there are literally dozen or more combat combos I have a split second to select and adjust on the fly.

I think this is in the right direction but woefully incomplete. LA/Block weaving is mindless and twitching for sake of twitching. I should explicitly decide to block here in lieu of attacking there. Now it is "want to be a good player" block spam or LA between every skill. Being able to spam block should not be yard stick for ESO skilled play.

De-emphasising the twitch weaving must be follows on with ESO increasing the size of the Skill pool as well as the Skill bar slots. There needs to be much more variety on Skills to select form for any given GCD. 7-8 Attack options or more, not the current 2. There should be a plethora of Skill Combos a skilled player needs to pick from in a split second. A Classes Skills (Attack or Defensive) should have some associated characteristic that interact so as each combo sequence is truly different.

In summary, removing mindless twitch as the basis for Skill is correct. But it needs to be replaced with more variation and play options.

You lost me here. I dont even have to read this post to know where this is going. I cant play fast so slow it down for me.

What an insane thing to say. This is the problem with the post that zos made and why its bringing out all these people now who will whine about low apm and say its a problem in a competitive game. If you are losing in pvp you need to improve. If you want to hit the top dps numbers in the game, which you dont need to do to succeed, you need to improve. You can do it, i believe in you.

The fact that people are publicly saying that they want the developer of this game to bring the game down to their level is actually hilarious.

eso_lags

iCaliban wrote: »

NoodleESO wrote: »

How many times are we going to point fingers at all the things we think are causing a skill gap before they ruin the game.

Gear, mechanics, abilities, you name it is been nerfed because of this witch hunt. The truth is people need to learn how to play this game like so many others were able to do, it’s not impossible.

Its not even HARD. Nothing short of god slayer or some very specific hard modes requires much effort.

We have people out there beating dark souls on drum sets and yet we need to nerf mmo combat? Gtfo people

Exactly. Unless its something like godslayer then its not that hard. And there should be certain things in mmos that are extremely hard, eso doesn't have nearly enough imo. Not even close to other mmos.

But other than that a lot of issues are with mechanics. Thats one of the big reasons pugging trials or certain dungeons is hard. Because people wont follow directions and dont want to learn.

If you get a good group of 12 decent players who will follow directions and pick up on things in a reasonable amount of time, you should be able to do almost anything even with mediocre dps. Not bad dps, decent dps, competent tanking, competent healing.

Where were the people complaining about apm a month ago? Or 6 months, or a year. They weren't saying anything about it til zos brought them out with that post. No, they were busy complaining and making excuses about other things that they feel were holding them back. When in reality its just a lack of effort for most.