I love this game but skill diversity and hotbar are seriously lacking. They give it a basic feel.

GrumpyDuckling

Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »

Revisiting and read through again... and had another crazy idea....

Why not get rid of pressing Right (on console) to switch quests (why? why do we even need that option?) and instead re-purpose that to switch weapons in general. Then you can have three weapons equipped/a third bar. Hitting left and right cycles between the 3 bars.

That would still require "skill" since you need to memorize which bar you're on and remember to switch the correct direction (left or right). As a healer, I could see myself fluking a switch and casting an offensive spell instead of a heal. Oh the thrill of accidentally putting lives at risk because you can't get your bars together... lol

Personally, I wish there could also be a way to have all weapons on your person at all times, but thats a cosmetic topic, unrelated to combat... just a thought (bow on back, daggers on hips, sword in hand, for example, and swapping out based on which is active).

This is interesting. It would also increase in interest if ZOS moved away from attribute scaling and merged spell/weapon critical and spell/physical penetration together. I always thought it would be fun to have a hybrid build capable of adapting to multiple roles on the fly. It would be cool to be able to access OH/Shield, Bow, and Restoration staff on the fly (No matter who lies about which role in dungeon finder I could simply assume that role).

Scion_of_Yggdrasil

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »

Revisiting and read through again... and had another crazy idea....

Why not get rid of pressing Right (on console) to switch quests (why? why do we even need that option?) and instead re-purpose that to switch weapons in general. Then you can have three weapons equipped/a third bar. Hitting left and right cycles between the 3 bars.

That would still require "skill" since you need to memorize which bar you're on and remember to switch the correct direction (left or right). As a healer, I could see myself fluking a switch and casting an offensive spell instead of a heal. Oh the thrill of accidentally putting lives at risk because you can't get your bars together... lol

Personally, I wish there could also be a way to have all weapons on your person at all times, but thats a cosmetic topic, unrelated to combat... just a thought (bow on back, daggers on hips, sword in hand, for example, and swapping out based on which is active).

This is interesting. It would also increase in interest if ZOS moved away from attribute scaling and merged spell/weapon critical and spell/physical penetration together. I always thought it would be fun to have a hybrid build capable of adapting to multiple roles on the fly. It would be cool to be able to access OH/Shield, Bow, and Restoration staff on the fly (No matter who lies about which role in dungeon finder I could simply assume that role).

I have always made hybrid builds, and am sorely looking forward to getting a pelinal's aptitude set for this reason, but I'll get into that more down below***. I like the class system a lot and think future single player ES titles should implement it in a way, since you have plenty of other skill lines to compliment/contrast your class, but the dmg values and how resources tie into output... work very much against hybrids.

Heres why....

I'm a warden healer, and prefer double bow (not gonna lie, mainly because I just love being an archer haha). Green balance abilities fill my first bar, and bow/winters embrace cover the second. Magnum shot helps me rescue teammates as well as defend myself, as well as frozen retreat (my favorite skill lately), and endless hail and winters revenge (physical and magical aoe-dps) really compliment leeching vines (mob? you get heals, you get heals... EVERYONE GETS HEALS). Then you add in lotus (heals when attacking, plus increases critical). Oh! And bombard! There aren't many sticky situations I cant rescue someone from. I find this playstyle much more satisfying than the shield/heal/buff game. Its tactical, and requires more attention/focus than just running through a rotation. But... when people dont help me help them... it can be faulty lol (like not using frozen retreat when you're cornered, or not following me away from the mob after I immobilize them). This build also helps with rezzing a lot.

***however... this set doesnt really help you if you split your resources between the two (mag/stam) like a true hybrid. IMO, resources should only effect dmg output in the sense that you have more stam/mag to dish out more abilities before running out of resources (so in my case, mag for heals, stam for dmg). In a perfect world, dmg would only be tied to the ability lvl and other factors (armor, pots, etc.) but not resource pools, so equipping both mag and stam abilities will allow you to seamlessly switch between resources to keep a constant stream of dmg types/heals. With this set, at least my bow abilities will pack a better punch (as well as just my standard atks), and when I feel like mixing things up and not being a healer, I can be more effective as a bow dps but... I'd be running out of stam too fast for it to be worth it, and would still be running mostly magicka abilities (when I prefer bow). At least I could still equip a staff and focus on magic dps, while still maintaining my tactical bow options, but thats not the point.

Kesstryl

Everstorm wrote: »

I played Everquest for some 10 odd years. In the end I think I had 40 odd hotbuttons on my screen if not more. Every expansion added more. It was ridiculous.
The limited amount of skills in ESO is one of the best things in this game.

Very true, the Piano expertise needed for EQ2 is ridiculous, and the main reason I stopped playing. I love ESO combat, I love that skills are limited because I would never want to go back to trying to play a full on symphony with my hands in games like EQ2.

Toc de Malsvi

One of the major issues I have had is how much they continue to add to universal talents and passives. If they want more diversity and interest they need to add more class and tree specific talents and passives.

Universal talents and passives fall largely into the state of either being too strong or weak. Too strong and everyone slots them, too weak and no one does. There is a small gap for situational use, but largely they are either over or under used.

VoxAdActa

No, that's silly.

I've played a LOT of other MMOs, and where ESO shines above all the rest is that combat isn't "autoattack, stand still, and play your number and function keys like a piano".

What, you want all characters to have immediate access to all their tanking, healing, and damage skills all at the same time? Who needs roles? That's the thing you're missing: in other MMOs, your role is determined, at character creation, by whatever class you pick. It is immutable. In ESO, the skill system is designed so that any class can be any role, but only one role at a time (effectively).

The tradeoff for not having five skill bars clogging up your UI is that if you get tired of DPSing, you can respec your Nightblade into a tank or a healer for a pittance of gold, rather than being forced to level a whole new character in a different class up from level 1.

I feel that if you love the way other MMOs are structured around fixed class/role dynamics and stationary, non-dynamic combat, ESO might not be the game for you.

Everest_Lionheart

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

One of the major issues I have had is how much they continue to add to universal talents and passives. If they want more diversity and interest they need to add more class and tree specific talents and passives.

Universal talents and passives fall largely into the state of either being too strong or weak. Too strong and everyone slots them, too weak and no one does. There is a small gap for situational use, but largely they are either over or under used.

Some skills have too much utility. When you’ve got AOE’s that also DOT while healing or budding of course those are going to get used more often than slotting 1 separate skill for each. Now some of that stuff is great for solo builds, but also redundant in really good groups.

At the end of the day whether the skills are all the same or all different people are going to slot the best skills available to fit their role. That’s the reason we are all running the same skills anyway. Look at which weapon skills have the best passives and you’ll see why the diversity lacks when it comes to weapon skills too.

Class skills is the only place it could get interesting but players limit themselves because there are better skills depending on your personal style in the fighters, mages, undaunted and alliance lines. I would like to see more incentives to slot class skills and make the trade off between choosing from the other skill lines. Those other skill lines have passives that boost their strength, maybe balance the skill and remove that kind of passive from the non-class skill lines. Or do something like wardens animal companions skill line where you get a significant boost for slotting each animal ability. Now this handcuffs wardens ultimate a bit because you need to slot the bear to get his passive and slot him on both bars to keep the skill active when swapping. So you are juicing your damage but have no real ultimate skill to deal high damage when you need it. It’s a trade off you have to make.

The base classes don’t have this kind of choice though slotting class and weapon skills makes them better for actual role play. I’ve got a magplar with 3 destro skill, 8 Templar skills and Soul trap that is just a joy to play because all of the pieces work so well and fit the class. Stamina classes though people mix and match the skills lines a bit more but are still choosing the same skills because they are the best ones available.

Diversity won’t ever really change unless maybe they add some additional morph options that forces the players to choose. For the most part a morph either fits your build or the other fits better. Maybe with 2 choices of stam or mag morphs things would change though I suspect one morph would always get more use than the other. Depends on the trade offs.

Coppes

VoxAdActa wrote: »

I've played a LOT of other MMOs, and where ESO shines above all the rest is that combat isn't "autoattack, stand still, and play your number and function keys like a piano".

In most MMOs you don’t ‘stand there’ especially in PvP. Or play the game like you’re ‘playing a piano’. I need some auto-attack MMO examples.

Having too little abilities at once makes combat dull and having too much abilities at much makes it too complicated.

In ESO, I basically use a spammable then cookie-click, repeat while occasionally pressing the other keys.

In fact one of the only things that makes ESO unique is the block, dodge and break free system.

Xvorg

Selminus wrote: »

Swapping weapons feels like a cheap way out. Not only are there so few skills for a character to choose from ( many MMOS have more active skills in one class than ESO has in it's entirely ) but it doesn't even make sense from a lore standpoint. I get 5 spells and an ultimate and if I want to use more of my armamentarium i need to....switch to an identical weapon? What type of kick ass sorcerer has.....6 spells at his disposal? It's awful considering you have staple skills you need like heals etc. which actually further limit the hotbar. What you end up with is a bizarre mix and match from multiple "world skills" and "class skills" half of which don't even make visual sense on your hotbar mixed together or from a lore standpoint. This needs a serious overhaul.

This backbar thing is bizarre and feels cheap on top of being annoying. Also, the light/heavy attacks don't count as skills so don't go there, almost every game has an auto attack that's not a "skill" except for GW2.

I have had this account since 2014 and it's becoming hard to convince myself or anyone else it's the way it needs to be. We need 1. More Spells and 2. More elaborate hotbars.

Stop focusing on light and heavy attack damage and start focusing on the fact that this feels like a tablet game when it comes to combat.

That said, I can't believe the progress this game has made. Maybe that is what makes this stand out to me? Everything outlapped the combat?

More "spells" (Skills) = Cooldowns.

I don't want CD on ESO. 12 skills is more than enough.

Xvorg

Eifleber wrote: »

Agreed with OP. 5 +1 skills feels a bit like kindergarten level "let's not make things too complicated" MMO.

I doubt if it is ever gong to change though.

kindergarden MMO is having 20 skills at your disposal, so any button you press is a win.

Limits to the amount of skills implies taking hard decisions, and if you make a mistake choosing the wrong skill, you must learn how to cope with that, without having the "oh ***" button that corrects that mistake.

craybest

I actually prefer to have just a few available skills at a time compared to ffxiv or wow where you have 4+hotbars cluttering the screen.
I'm just disappointed for the lack of diversity in builds and skills though. Most people seem to always use the same ones. And if you use others, it means being remarkable harder to kill and survive.

Eifleber

The bar switching is annoying because it seems to be bugged a lot of times. Sometimes they don' t switch and sometimes the weapons don't show correctly. Across my characters I use 1 type of staff for healing and another for dd - but very often the game only shows one of the models all the time, which is very confusing.

Having not many skills isn't necessarily bad, though. GW1 had only 8 skills on the bar but the variety it allowed because of the M:tG type of "deckbuilding" type of skill combinations .. it was enormous. Sometimes i miss that in ESO.
"The best" skills are often in generic weapon/guild line so every build seems to uses the same few skills - with some class specific ones. How often does it happen that 3 players in a pug use the undaunted orbs, for example ..
*

WuChiWuGen

Combat in this game is s dumbed down. Gone of the day with over 30 hot bar slots with tons of diversity.
But it sells well so most people must want a very simple easy game. 10 slots with 2 weapons would be so much better.

Stx

More hot keys =/= more diversity.

More skill morphs, more skill trees would increase build diversity.

This game has a great build system but there are too few options when it comes to buff skills, spammable attacks, delayed bursts, heals, etc. Every class uses the best options from each tree, and then depending on their backbar weapon, they all use volley/blockade etc.

When is the last time you saw a templar not using jabs, or a warden without netch, or a stam sorc without hurricane?

Some skills will always be better than others. But to increase build diversity, we need more skills to choose from.

I would like to see skill trees increased to 10 skills deep for the class trees. And add at least 1 new stamina weapon line, and 2 or 3 new magicka lines. Spears, illusion magic, mysticism, literally any skill line from the original TES games.

Auztinito

Console is not the reason. Their lack of knowledge with a controller is a big part of it. I highly doubt any of they design their game with controllers or consoles in mind. The lack of basic features on the console version displays that. I’d bet any QA is done with the PC version alone.

They just don’t know how to come up with control schemes or systems that work intuitively on consoles and PC.

Auztinito

If they want build diversity. Then they need to let players play how they want. If someone wants to be a stealth archer or Magic melee then they’re needs to be gear, skills, and ect for this. If someone hates weapon switching, they’re needs to be ways to support it. Same goes for weaving. Only until then will there be diversity.

Alucardo

Stx wrote: »

I dont think we need more skills on our bar at once... but I do think we need more skills to choose from. I agree for an mmo or am elder scrolls game, the overall skill choice is severely lacking.

Agree with this. I actually don't mind the 5 abilities and 1 ulti on each bar, but what I dislike is my "pool" of choices. To give you an example, I wanted to slot a destro ability on my offensive bar for the additional single target damage. An easy choice would be ele drain, right? But I already have mark that offers breach and is even more useful with the army of nightblades around, and my magicka sustain is already infinite, so ele drain would be a waste. I used to run reach, but it was nerfed to remove the knock back so it's pointless now. There's nothing else I can slot there for PvP. Like, literally nothing.

Stamina builds who already have their single DD ability baked into their class only need 2h for rally. Stamina builds who don't have a DD ability only have dizzying swing. There's just not enough choices. The game needs more variety in their choices and builds, not more active abilities.

Biro123

I like the small skillbar - and bar-swapping. There are only reasonably so many keybinds you could reach/use quickly in this kind of reactive game (as opposed to a more cooldown-based, slower-paced game).

I have played other MMO's with loads of skills - and they always resolved to macros - to reduce them to that same workable handful of keybinds - whether as part of the core game (Rift) or addons - (eg nerfedbuttons)

That said, I agree that there does need to be more options. Dizzy-swing is one example of being waay over-used in PVP - simply because of the lack of options.

I also think there may be *some* merit in allowing an extra 'buff only' slot.. You can slot a skill there just for its passive, but are unable to activate it (and perhaps it increases that passive benefit by 20% while in that specific slot?). This would obviously need balancing as it could benefit some classes much more than others (cough - sorc) - but it could help address the loss of barspace for passive buffs. idk.. just spitballing.

Ken_Koerperich

I'm on PS5.

Bar swapping is hit or miss in this game.

I'm new, so I'm having a h - e double match sticks of a time deciding what works for PvE on bar, to get the most out of it all, and still not have to play "meta" junk.

Back bar, hmm, since it's not active most times, just put junk on there for when I DO get it to swap, and maybe assist.

So IMO, I'd like to see a way to make it so more skills could be used on the front bar, or "better" pairings/buffs from what are slotted.

Enjoy!

alberichtano

universal_wrath wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Definitely agree with the OP.

The situation is even worse when you consider "mandatory" passive buff "skills" such as Inner Light or Savage Hunter which effectively reduces bar space to 4. And then another slot eaten up for obtaining mandatory self-buffs such as Brutality/Sorcery which reduces your bar space to 3.

Then you factor in Ultimates that give you passives such as Dawnbreaker or Comet and suddenly you're looking at builds with half of their slots already filled in no matter what class you play, which is just horrific design.

Yes, you could use potions for some of these things, but even as a relatively affluent player I am always thinking "This is so backward" when I'm forced into using potions on cooldown in order to maintain staple DPS buffs. These potions are also completely out of reach for newer players without the gold to buy or brew them.

The game probably would not succeed with 10 skills on each bar but it is eminently reasonable to increase it to 6 skills on each bar and/or to reassign the obvious DPS buffs to be achieved through alternative gameplay means.

For example, give a passive to the Mages and Fighters guilds that gives you Major Savagery/Prophecy for 5 seconds every time you Crit and then another that gives Major Brutality/Sorcery for 30 seconds every time you Heavy Attack. Then you could re-work all of those self-buffing skills into actually useful abilities instead of being functionally dead space on your bar.

In the first 2 years of the games, there were active toggle skills like inner light. You only needed to slot the skill on 1 bar and activate it to be toggle on and the skill will be active for unlimited duration even if you swap bars, much like overload now. This obviously created many problems because you could have a skill with 12m denying nightblades ability to stealth, or mag sorcs with pets and buffs on 1 bar and miltiple offensive skills on 1 bar. Pet Mag sorcs currenlty very limited to number of skills they could use due to this change where you have to slot pets on both bars to be active all time.

idk wrote: »

Odd how after 6 years we have done very well with only 10 spells and 2 ults at our disposal at any given time. It means we have to be smart about what we choose to place in those slots. I do not miss having a screen full of skills where most of them I hardly used.

Further, ESO has a large selection of skills available from various skill lines. There are more skills available to a single class than most MMORPGs offer to any given class. So there is plenty of selection through a good build will have skills that are chosen wisely.

While what you said about the large number of skills in eso to be us correct, it is also partialy wrong. Some large number of skills are tied to specific weapons you can only use if you have that right weapon. Also, some skills require specific situations/conditions to be used like being a vamp or werewolf. Many support skills that are either expenaive like purge, or useless like revealing flare. Even with the morphing system, many morphs are left untouched to due to their lack of usefulness over their counter part like cleanse vs effecient purge, steady warhorn vs agressive warhorn, summon charge atronach vs greater storm atronach...etc.

I think the best way to balance the game currently and help wuth build diversity is to remove all classes and just put all skills as they are avialble to everyone. We can still call tgem class skill lines and limit the number of passive from them to 15 only much like now. But image a nightblade using subassault or necromancer using streak and leap or sorcerer using collousus or japs. Tgis is what going to gelp build diversity and push people away from depending weapon skills like dizzy or elemntal wall etc... mix and match and balance skills from their. Now people of wach class are complaining that other classes do more dmg or survive more than their classes while oppesite side is also doing the same, very hard to tel which is right and which is wrong. I'm hoping that one day they will do that.

"Pet Mag sorcs currenlty very limited to number of skills they could use due to this change where you have to slot pets on both bars to be active all time."

That right there is why I just plain refuse to use pets, both on sorc and warden. It just isn't worth it, at all.

alberichtano

VoxAdActa wrote: »

No, that's silly.

I've played a LOT of other MMOs, and where ESO shines above all the rest is that combat isn't "autoattack, stand still, and play your number and function keys like a piano".

What, you want all characters to have immediate access to all their tanking, healing, and damage skills all at the same time? Who needs roles? That's the thing you're missing: in other MMOs, your role is determined, at character creation, by whatever class you pick. It is immutable. In ESO, the skill system is designed so that any class can be any role, but only one role at a time (effectively).

The tradeoff for not having five skill bars clogging up your UI is that if you get tired of DPSing, you can respec your Nightblade into a tank or a healer for a pittance of gold, rather than being forced to level a whole new character in a different class up from level 1.

I feel that if you love the way other MMOs are structured around fixed class/role dynamics and stationary, non-dynamic combat, ESO might not be the game for you.

Who needs roles, good question mate...

Thing is, roles are dead, except for raids. I see more fake tanks and healers than real ones out there. So, yeah, who needs roles indeed. :-/