I love this game but skill diversity and hotbar are seriously lacking. They give it a basic feel.

Selminus

Swapping weapons feels like a cheap way out. Not only are there so few skills for a character to choose from ( many MMOS have more active skills in one class than ESO has in it's entirely ) but it doesn't even make sense from a lore standpoint. I get 5 spells and an ultimate and if I want to use more of my armamentarium i need to....switch to an identical weapon? What type of kick ass sorcerer has.....6 spells at his disposal? It's awful considering you have staple skills you need like heals etc. which actually further limit the hotbar. What you end up with is a bizarre mix and match from multiple "world skills" and "class skills" half of which don't even make visual sense on your hotbar mixed together or from a lore standpoint. This needs a serious overhaul.

This backbar thing is bizarre and feels cheap on top of being annoying. Also, the light/heavy attacks don't count as skills so don't go there, almost every game has an auto attack that's not a "skill" except for GW2.

I have had this account since 2014 and it's becoming hard to convince myself or anyone else it's the way it needs to be. We need 1. More Spells and 2. More elaborate hotbars.

Stop focusing on light and heavy attack damage and start focusing on the fact that this feels like a tablet game when it comes to combat.

That said, I can't believe the progress this game has made. Maybe that is what makes this stand out to me? Everything outlapped the combat?

universal_wrath

Game was made for both PC and console to play, which is why you see the skill set up that way. It become very gard for console players to keep up with PC player once there are more than 6 skills to use each tune. They would have to combo dufferent button to do 1 skill unlike PC wgich can use 1 button per skill. Had tge game only launched for only, game design would have been different for sure.

Scion_of_Yggdrasil

universal_wrath wrote: »

Game was made for both PC and console to play, which is why you see the skill set up that way. It become very gard for console players to keep up with PC player once there are more than 6 skills to use each tune. They would have to combo dufferent button to do 1 skill unlike PC wgich can use 1 button per skill. Had tge game only launched for only, game design would have been different for sure.

True, but holding "block" to open a second bar is not that difficult. Players are already accustomed to pressing "attack" between skills (weaving) so holding block on either bar should be second nature.

In fact, Sacred 2 used this very mechanic. They only allotted 4 skills per "bar" tied to (for PS4) the 4 main buttons (cross, circle, square, triangle) and holding the left trigger showed set up 2, holding the right trigger showed set up 3.

Since the servers arent shared anyhow, it shouldn't matter if PC has an easier time activating skills.

Worse case scenario, for the less coordinated players: put all your offensive skills on the main bar, and defensive skills on the "block" bar.

5cript

When I started to play ESO I was also thinking: "What a dumb strategic restriction".
I now see it very differently from my PvP perspective, which is my endgame.

-First of all, the combat speed that ESO has does not allow for much more anyway. Maybe you can hotkey 20 skills and use them to perfection, but I doubt that would work for most.
- It puts a limitation to a build. It allows for quite some build theorizing, especially in pvp. It ties very well into the very open set system without definitive BiS gear (at least in PvP).
- more, but I got bored. xD

Everstorm

I played Everquest for some 10 odd years. In the end I think I had 40 odd hotbuttons on my screen if not more. Every expansion added more. It was ridiculous.
The limited amount of skills in ESO is one of the best things in this game.

Taleof2Cities

5cript wrote: »

When I started to play ESO I was also thinking: "What a dumb strategic restriction".
I now see it very differently from my PvP perspective, which is my endgame.

-First of all, the combat speed that ESO has does not allow for much more anyway. Maybe you can hotkey 20 skills and use them to perfection, but I doubt that would work for most.
- It puts a limitation to a build. It allows for quite some build theorizing, especially in pvp. It ties very well into the very open set system without definitive BiS gear (at least in PvP).
- more, but I got bored. xD

You're correct, @5cript ... the skill limitation makes theorycrafting paramount for any player build.

One of the unique reasons ESO is a better overall game than competitors like GW2 or WoW.

YandereGirlfriend

Definitely agree with the OP.

The situation is even worse when you consider "mandatory" passive buff "skills" such as Inner Light or Savage Hunter which effectively reduces bar space to 4. And then another slot eaten up for obtaining mandatory self-buffs such as Brutality/Sorcery which reduces your bar space to 3.

Then you factor in Ultimates that give you passives such as Dawnbreaker or Comet and suddenly you're looking at builds with half of their slots already filled in no matter what class you play, which is just horrific design.

Yes, you could use potions for some of these things, but even as a relatively affluent player I am always thinking "This is so backward" when I'm forced into using potions on cooldown in order to maintain staple DPS buffs. These potions are also completely out of reach for newer players without the gold to buy or brew them.

The game probably would not succeed with 10 skills on each bar but it is eminently reasonable to increase it to 6 skills on each bar and/or to reassign the obvious DPS buffs to be achieved through alternative gameplay means.

For example, give a passive to the Mages and Fighters guilds that gives you Major Savagery/Prophecy for 5 seconds every time you Crit and then another that gives Major Brutality/Sorcery for 30 seconds every time you Heavy Attack. Then you could re-work all of those self-buffing skills into actually useful abilities instead of being functionally dead space on your bar.

Selminus

Having limited hotbars and skills is the opposite of putting players in a position to theory craft. The reason for this is that not only do you not have much to choose from but you are locked into choosing certain things by default. So for your main bar if you have 5 slots, most people are naturally going to select a self buff, a heal and some type of AOE by nature of those things being fundamental. This leaves you with 2 spells to "theorycraft" with out out of a very limited pool. Having to swap to an identical weapon also makes zero sense from a lore standpoint and if it's not identical now you have a champion point spend problem where some of your points probably aren't applying.

This system needs an overhaul, it's bad. Bringing up GW2, you could spend *hours* theory crafting classes due to the diversity of skills and talent lines. Here, you spam spells and have half of a hotbar.

It needs an overhaul.

idk

Odd how after 6 years we have done very well with only 10 spells and 2 ults at our disposal at any given time. It means we have to be smart about what we choose to place in those slots. I do not miss having a screen full of skills where most of them I hardly used.

Further, ESO has a large selection of skills available from various skill lines. There are more skills available to a single class than most MMORPGs offer to any given class. So there is plenty of selection through a good build will have skills that are chosen wisely.

universal_wrath

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Definitely agree with the OP.

The situation is even worse when you consider "mandatory" passive buff "skills" such as Inner Light or Savage Hunter which effectively reduces bar space to 4. And then another slot eaten up for obtaining mandatory self-buffs such as Brutality/Sorcery which reduces your bar space to 3.

Then you factor in Ultimates that give you passives such as Dawnbreaker or Comet and suddenly you're looking at builds with half of their slots already filled in no matter what class you play, which is just horrific design.

Yes, you could use potions for some of these things, but even as a relatively affluent player I am always thinking "This is so backward" when I'm forced into using potions on cooldown in order to maintain staple DPS buffs. These potions are also completely out of reach for newer players without the gold to buy or brew them.

The game probably would not succeed with 10 skills on each bar but it is eminently reasonable to increase it to 6 skills on each bar and/or to reassign the obvious DPS buffs to be achieved through alternative gameplay means.

For example, give a passive to the Mages and Fighters guilds that gives you Major Savagery/Prophecy for 5 seconds every time you Crit and then another that gives Major Brutality/Sorcery for 30 seconds every time you Heavy Attack. Then you could re-work all of those self-buffing skills into actually useful abilities instead of being functionally dead space on your bar.

In the first 2 years of the games, there were active toggle skills like inner light. You only needed to slot the skill on 1 bar and activate it to be toggle on and the skill will be active for unlimited duration even if you swap bars, much like overload now. This obviously created many problems because you could have a skill with 12m denying nightblades ability to stealth, or mag sorcs with pets and buffs on 1 bar and miltiple offensive skills on 1 bar. Pet Mag sorcs currenlty very limited to number of skills they could use due to this change where you have to slot pets on both bars to be active all time.

idk wrote: »

Odd how after 6 years we have done very well with only 10 spells and 2 ults at our disposal at any given time. It means we have to be smart about what we choose to place in those slots. I do not miss having a screen full of skills where most of them I hardly used.

Further, ESO has a large selection of skills available from various skill lines. There are more skills available to a single class than most MMORPGs offer to any given class. So there is plenty of selection through a good build will have skills that are chosen wisely.

While what you said about the large number of skills in eso to be us correct, it is also partialy wrong. Some large number of skills are tied to specific weapons you can only use if you have that right weapon. Also, some skills require specific situations/conditions to be used like being a vamp or werewolf. Many support skills that are either expenaive like purge, or useless like revealing flare. Even with the morphing system, many morphs are left untouched to due to their lack of usefulness over their counter part like cleanse vs effecient purge, steady warhorn vs agressive warhorn, summon charge atronach vs greater storm atronach...etc.

I think the best way to balance the game currently and help wuth build diversity is to remove all classes and just put all skills as they are avialble to everyone. We can still call tgem class skill lines and limit the number of passive from them to 15 only much like now. But image a nightblade using subassault or necromancer using streak and leap or sorcerer using collousus or japs. Tgis is what going to gelp build diversity and push people away from depending weapon skills like dizzy or elemntal wall etc... mix and match and balance skills from their. Now people of wach class are complaining that other classes do more dmg or survive more than their classes while oppesite side is also doing the same, very hard to tel which is right and which is wrong. I'm hoping that one day they will do that.

Selminus

I believe the correct path is to increase the current skill lines with more options and add 1 or 2 hotkeys. They don't have to break the system over it but give us a little more room to take the core skills any wise gamer needs and have room for theorycrafting and build diversity. Have a sorcerer? Think about the number of options you *really* have for a single target direct damage attack. Come on.

Also, the idea of weapon swapping is.......swapping weapons, not changing to the same exact weapon because your hotbar is limited so console players can play. I have a resto staff for my backbar, this allows me to help outdoors and heal in dungeons. That is the appropriate use of a weapon swap much like a tank would have sword and board and then a 2 hander.

Here's an experiment ( forgive me for citing another MMO I am a huge ESO fan trust me )

Google GW2 Metabattle. Pick one class. Count the amount of viable builds on the next page you're taken to. This number will be upward of 30.

Google Alcast HQ. Pick one class. Count of the amount of viable builds on the next page you're taken to. This number will be what? 5? 10? The reason is the hotbars and the limited, awkward mash of class and world skills.

This game has so much depth overall, finish the job!

Goregrinder

I honestly hate having 5 rows of spells to worry about...I want to focus on positioning, dodge rolling, blocking etc, not on if spell number 46 is off cooldown on my 5th bar.

This system says "Here are dozens of choices, but you can only load 12 of them at a time". I prefer that system because it stresses the importance of planning, and that what you choose is just as important to your success as how you use your choices.

It's why even in sports, Hockey teams have enough players to fill 4 full lines but can only have 6 guys out on the ice at any point in time. It would be a train wreck if they just said "*** it, put all 21 players out on the ice and just see what happens..." That's how 5 or 6 bars full of garbage spells feels to me, and why I stopped playing games like EQ2, WoW, etc.

ThePedge

[snip]

Everest_Lionheart

Even the one bar swap we have on console is super impractical on a standard controller. You need a pro controller to map the bar swap and the potion differently otherwise you have to take your hand off the thumb stick to use either of them and because they are located on the D-pad it’s also easy I. The heat of battle to use a potion instead of bar swapping or even while swapping wasting a potion and another animation. Further complicating this is the perspective button on the same d-pad. Surrounded by enemies bar swap with accidental press of down on the d-pad and now you can’t see anything going on behind you. It’s another waste of a press which might also swap back your weapon if you aren’t careful.

Yeah controller layout is crap already without even more buttons to press for even more skills. We are already holding 2 at the same time to bash and pressing another 2 together for synergies. Consider weaving in you are almost always pressing 2 buttons at once.

As much as even another 1 or 2 skills would be nice in battle there simply aren’t enough buttons (or fingers) to get the job done.

JinMori

Well, you can blame consoles for that.

Now they basically sealed the deal with how many abilities you can run, and adding a third bar is not really doable either.

Barswapping is fine, but, they are limited with how many abilities they can run.

I just think, mmos do not belong on console, period.

I also would like just 1 or 2 more abilities per bar, but it's not gonna happen.

Bradyfjord

People who want more variety in their builds need to experiment more.

Skills, gear, and consumables are all context sensitive.

For example, gear bonuses that affect a group are basically wasted on a solo/mostly solo player. These kinds of bonuses are often weaker than more 'selfish' gear bonuses. But these group bonuses become very useful the more players you are grouped up with.

It may also be that if you only do one thing, you only need one setup. I dabble in everything. I consider myself a dungeon tank mainly, but I enjoy pvp and pve (solo or group). So I always find myself trying new skills, old skills, and the same with new or old gear.

Not saying people don't feel constrained, but that is a feature not a problem. Make your choices and stick by them, or change them. Either way, you have a choice.

I don't want this game to become like wow where classes have lots of abilities, but you have to play the way they want you to. I am grateful that the developers of ESO have been able to let me have the choices that I do have.

Stx

I dont think we need more skills on our bar at once... but I do think we need more skills to choose from. I agree for an mmo or am elder scrolls game, the overall skill choice is severely lacking.

I also think the existing skills need to be balanced a lot better...

Everest_Lionheart

JinMori wrote: »

Well, you can blame consoles for that.

Now they basically sealed the deal with how many abilities you can run, and adding a third bar is not really doable either.

Barswapping is fine, but, they are limited with how many abilities they can run.

I just think, mmos do not belong on console, period.

I also would like just 1 or 2 more abilities per bar, but it's not gonna happen.

Maybe if they allowed another load out for each bar accessible through the pause menu. Now obviously you couldn’t really change it on the fly but say you are running content where you need to switch from tank to dps or healer you can switch your load out on either your front, back or both to adjust when there is a break in the action. That’s a reasonable compromise could happen on all platforms. Though I bet PC would quickly have an add on to switch on the fly anyway!

JinMori

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Well, you can blame consoles for that.

Now they basically sealed the deal with how many abilities you can run, and adding a third bar is not really doable either.

Barswapping is fine, but, they are limited with how many abilities they can run.

I just think, mmos do not belong on console, period.

I also would like just 1 or 2 more abilities per bar, but it's not gonna happen.

Maybe if they allowed another load out for each bar accessible through the pause menu. Now obviously you couldn’t really change it on the fly but say you are running content where you need to switch from tank to dps or healer you can switch your load out on either your front, back or both to adjust when there is a break in the action. That’s a reasonable compromise could happen on all platforms. Though I bet PC would quickly have an add on to switch on the fly anyway!

But that is not the same as having more skills on your bars.

I am all for allowing us to basically swap specs on the fly, that is something that has been suggested for a long time to zos, but what i am talking about is like a 6th or 7th ability on your bar.

That is probably not gonna happen because peripheral limitations, from consoles. It was a mistake to add consoles in the picture in my opinion, mmos just do not fit well in consoles.

Everest_Lionheart

JinMori wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Well, you can blame consoles for that.

Now they basically sealed the deal with how many abilities you can run, and adding a third bar is not really doable either.

Barswapping is fine, but, they are limited with how many abilities they can run.

I just think, mmos do not belong on console, period.

I also would like just 1 or 2 more abilities per bar, but it's not gonna happen.

Maybe if they allowed another load out for each bar accessible through the pause menu. Now obviously you couldn’t really change it on the fly but say you are running content where you need to switch from tank to dps or healer you can switch your load out on either your front, back or both to adjust when there is a break in the action. That’s a reasonable compromise could happen on all platforms. Though I bet PC would quickly have an add on to switch on the fly anyway!

But that is not the same as having more skills on your bars.

I am all for allowing us to basically swap specs on the fly, that is something that has been suggested for a long time to zos, but what i am talking about is like a 6th or 7th ability on your bar.

That is probably not gonna happen because peripheral limitations, from consoles. It was a mistake to add consoles in the picture in my opinion, mmos just do not fit well in consoles.

With that in mind more skills per bar would likely need rebalancing or else you could see an even further reduction in viable builds in the game.

For instance I play a DW stam warden. If I could load up my front bar with extra shield and healing buffs I could virtually never die. It could make a jack of all trades build more viable With the risk that more people run a similar type of build.

So to balance some things would need to be nerfed and we know how people can get when you start nerfing things around here.

JinMori

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Well, you can blame consoles for that.

Now they basically sealed the deal with how many abilities you can run, and adding a third bar is not really doable either.

Barswapping is fine, but, they are limited with how many abilities they can run.

I just think, mmos do not belong on console, period.

I also would like just 1 or 2 more abilities per bar, but it's not gonna happen.

Maybe if they allowed another load out for each bar accessible through the pause menu. Now obviously you couldn’t really change it on the fly but say you are running content where you need to switch from tank to dps or healer you can switch your load out on either your front, back or both to adjust when there is a break in the action. That’s a reasonable compromise could happen on all platforms. Though I bet PC would quickly have an add on to switch on the fly anyway!

But that is not the same as having more skills on your bars.

I am all for allowing us to basically swap specs on the fly, that is something that has been suggested for a long time to zos, but what i am talking about is like a 6th or 7th ability on your bar.

That is probably not gonna happen because peripheral limitations, from consoles. It was a mistake to add consoles in the picture in my opinion, mmos just do not fit well in consoles.

With that in mind more skills per bar would likely need rebalancing or else you could see an even further reduction in viable builds in the game.

For instance I play a DW stam warden. If I could load up my front bar with extra shield and healing buffs I could virtually never die. It could make a jack of all trades build more viable With the risk that more people run a similar type of build.

So to balance some things would need to be nerfed and we know how people can get when you start nerfing things around here.

No, the amount of viable builds would not change for the worse, it would be either the same, or more.

You could stack more abilities to deal even more damage, you could stack more defensive abilities, or more heals, the amount of viable builds would probably increase, not decrease, or at worst remain the same. But decrease? No not really.

Everest_Lionheart

JinMori wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Well, you can blame consoles for that.

Now they basically sealed the deal with how many abilities you can run, and adding a third bar is not really doable either.

Barswapping is fine, but, they are limited with how many abilities they can run.

I just think, mmos do not belong on console, period.

I also would like just 1 or 2 more abilities per bar, but it's not gonna happen.

Maybe if they allowed another load out for each bar accessible through the pause menu. Now obviously you couldn’t really change it on the fly but say you are running content where you need to switch from tank to dps or healer you can switch your load out on either your front, back or both to adjust when there is a break in the action. That’s a reasonable compromise could happen on all platforms. Though I bet PC would quickly have an add on to switch on the fly anyway!

But that is not the same as having more skills on your bars.

I am all for allowing us to basically swap specs on the fly, that is something that has been suggested for a long time to zos, but what i am talking about is like a 6th or 7th ability on your bar.

That is probably not gonna happen because peripheral limitations, from consoles. It was a mistake to add consoles in the picture in my opinion, mmos just do not fit well in consoles.

With that in mind more skills per bar would likely need rebalancing or else you could see an even further reduction in viable builds in the game.

For instance I play a DW stam warden. If I could load up my front bar with extra shield and healing buffs I could virtually never die. It could make a jack of all trades build more viable With the risk that more people run a similar type of build.

So to balance some things would need to be nerfed and we know how people can get when you start nerfing things around here.

No, the amount of viable builds would not change for the worse, it would be either the same, or more.

You could stack more abilities to deal even more damage, you could stack more defensive abilities, or more heals, the amount of viable builds would probably increase, not decrease, or at worst remain the same. But decrease? No not really.

I can also see it your way as well. Extra skills could unleash the full potential of certain classes, again I use warden as an example because the class itself has so many skills that can fit together but you only get to choose 5+5. You could double up the same skills on both bars if you wanted to eliminate the swap. I’m already doing it with bird of prey on front and back bars so it’s like I am handicapping myself of an additional skill but I like the buffs for weaving HA when on the back bar. It’s super basic and probably not optimal DPS but it’s a less complicated sequence.

Cathexis

Imo the buttonmash instant combat is the draw of this mmo. Sure more skills is awesome but .. I enjoy the challenge of thoughtful combinations rather than just being able to cherry pick the entire skill system on demand.

ThePedge

As others have said, theorising best ability loadouts and combining that with other sources such as potions, food, poisons, and sets.

Sure, I get annoyed that I don't have enough bar space for everything I want in PvP, but everyone has that.

In PvE most builds only use 4-5 abilities and rest are slotted for buffs. Why would I want to just apply 18 diff dots one after another in a cycle.

That's my magblade PvE is the funnest rotation for me, it's dynamic and challenging.

tului78

Despite playing the game since launch I've always hated that too. If they had a few more skills. Having a bar multiplier like FF XIV would work perfectly.

Eifleber

Agreed with OP. 5 +1 skills feels a bit like kindergarten level "let's not make things too complicated" MMO.

I doubt if it is ever gong to change though.

Chelo

Selminus wrote: »

Swapping weapons feels like a cheap way out. Not only are there so few skills for a character to choose from ( many MMOS have more active skills in one class than ESO has in it's entirely ) but it doesn't even make sense from a lore standpoint. I get 5 spells and an ultimate and if I want to use more of my armamentarium i need to....switch to an identical weapon? What type of kick ass sorcerer has.....6 spells at his disposal? It's awful considering you have staple skills you need like heals etc. which actually further limit the hotbar. What you end up with is a bizarre mix and match from multiple "world skills" and "class skills" half of which don't even make visual sense on your hotbar mixed together or from a lore standpoint. This needs a serious overhaul.

This backbar thing is bizarre and feels cheap on top of being annoying. Also, the light/heavy attacks don't count as skills so don't go there, almost every game has an auto attack that's not a "skill" except for GW2.

I have had this account since 2014 and it's becoming hard to convince myself or anyone else it's the way it needs to be. We need 1. More Spells and 2. More elaborate hotbars.

Stop focusing on light and heavy attack damage and start focusing on the fact that this feels like a tablet game when it comes to combat.

That said, I can't believe the progress this game has made. Maybe that is what makes this stand out to me? Everything outlapped the combat?

ESO doesn't have cool downs. The moment you use 1 single skill in WoW (or other traditional MMOs), I can use both hotbars in ESO twice.

Keep in mind it's very different to make an MMO without cool downs. In PvE you won't be able to sustain a 25 plus skill rotation in ESO, it's not efficient and you will run out of resources.

PvP is so fast paced that most of the time, you only need to combo 3 or 4 well timed skills to secure a kill on someone. Having small hotbars force people to make decisions between offense and defense.

If you add block, roll dodge, sprint and break free to the mix, this is pretty much like a Fighting Game. Which is why this game is interesting in the first place.

ecru

12 skills is fine. My issue with 12 slots is that often too many of these slots are taken up by abilities which only serve to provide a passive. Placing passive buffs or stat buffs on skills with the requirement being only that they're slotted to gain that buff was a mistake and I'd like to see basically all of those removed so that we're incentivized to put more usable skills on our bar instead of placeholders.

Soris

5cript wrote: »

When I started to play ESO I was also thinking: "What a dumb strategic restriction".
I now see it very differently from my PvP perspective, which is my endgame.

-First of all, the combat speed that ESO has does not allow for much more anyway. Maybe you can hotkey 20 skills and use them to perfection, but I doubt that would work for most.
- It puts a limitation to a build. It allows for quite some build theorizing, especially in pvp. It ties very well into the very open set system without definitive BiS gear (at least in PvP).
- more, but I got bored. xD

True, but i wouldn't mind one more slot

Luckylancer

This is how the game always have been. You started new and comparin this to other MMOs but this one is a fast MMO. MMOs are fast and have little skills, Black desert is a faster MMO (slower than ESO imo) and it have a few skills to use too.

Fun combat is one of the big reason this game still hold. Other is Elder Scrools title.

Scion_of_Yggdrasil

Revisiting and read through again... and had another crazy idea....

Why not get rid of pressing Right (on console) to switch quests (why? why do we even need that option?) and instead re-purpose that to switch weapons in general. Then you can have three weapons equipped/a third bar. Hitting left and right cycles between the 3 bars.

That would still require "skill" since you need to memorize which bar you're on and remember to switch the correct direction (left or right). As a healer, I could see myself fluking a switch and casting an offensive spell instead of a heal. Oh the thrill of accidentally putting lives at risk because you can't get your bars together... lol

Personally, I wish there could also be a way to have all weapons on your person at all times, but thats a cosmetic topic, unrelated to combat... just a thought (bow on back, daggers on hips, sword in hand, for example, and swapping out based on which is active).