APM Logic

Jodynn

APM doesn't affect just weaving
If you have bad APM you probably aren't casting a skill every second either, and learning to weave faster teaches you to cast skills faster with rhythm and fluidity.

ile we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb. Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options. This is particularly evident in veteran content and PvP.

It guides you to learn the GCD better, it's not some evil barrier in fact it helps you get past the barrier.
Saying the gap is important but then making it only do 22% of the damage it is doing now, it makes the skill only a sustain buff, which makes your statement invalidate itself by showing the damage it is doing now isn't all that important.
Reducing the damage is just putting lower skill gap players at risk to be unable to clear content for having less damage overall even at inferior weaves.
Lower the damage to .22 on a .5lps is just .11, it's not altering the skill gap it's just giving less options, yet you preach more options.

Finally, the concept of using light attacks for damage and heavy attacks for restore is, quite simply, unintuitive – especially for less experienced players.

It's not anymore intuitive the other way around, especially for your veteran players.

My analysis :

Light attacks giving sustain is actually super nice, but the inferior damage isn't.
78% nerf may be a bit too much, perhaps make it 30% or even 20%
If you're so worried about the skill gap teach it in a tutorial, much like typing classes increase your typing speed by practice, this is no different as both are governed by actions per minute ( APM ).

ZeroXFF

If there was no LA weaving, or if it was implemented competently, the length of the GCD wouldn't need to be "taught". The game would remember your inputs, and if you were too fast, the last skill you pressed during the GCD of a previous skill would be queued up and go off as soon as the GCD is over.

APM by itself is not an issue in ESO, the issue is the pacing of those actions. It would be easier to do LA-1-LA-2-LA-3 if every - was 500ms, rather than having to switch between <100ms and >900ms every time. The APM would remain unaffected, but it would be much more intuitive and easier to learn.

TheFM

I never wanna hear anything about limitations ever again https://youtu.be/N2SNwKvWiVc

Skjaldbjorn

The APM Zenimax is using reportedly counts movement, so it is completely irrelevant. We need to be using Casts Per Minute or something.

Hanokihs

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

The APM Zenimax is using reportedly counts movement, so it is completely irrelevant. We need to be using Casts Per Minute or something.

Yeah but all their real testing (and skill balancing, whether people want to accept it or not) is based on the target dummies, where most mechanics and movement are pointless. I don't think they're really considering that aspect at all.

That's why they're trying so hard to nerf the DPS ceiling, without considering tanks and healers; because the parse numbers have gotten so high, and the gap is so wide, it's making it hard to truly balance the game for the majority of players.

LiquidPony

Hanokihs wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

The APM Zenimax is using reportedly counts movement, so it is completely irrelevant. We need to be using Casts Per Minute or something.

Yeah but all their real testing (and skill balancing, whether people want to accept it or not) is based on the target dummies, where most mechanics and movement are pointless. I don't think they're really considering that aspect at all.

That's why they're trying so hard to nerf the DPS ceiling, without considering tanks and healers; because the parse numbers have gotten so high, and the gap is so wide, it's making it hard to truly balance the game for the majority of players.

How many times do we need to "nerf the DPS ceiling"?

It wasn't more than 6-7 months ago that virtually every build in the game was closing in on 100k DPS on the Trial Dummy, with stamcros and stamsorcs pushing close to 110k. Hell, magblades were the bottom of the barrel and hitting 95k. Magdens were hitting 98k.

Today we've got a few builds (stamplar, magDK, stamcro) in the mid-90s, and pretty much everything else in the mid-to-high 80ks.

A lot of builds lost 10-15k DPS post-Scalebreaker. I thought we already nerfed the DPS ceiling?

Cage_Lizardman

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

The APM Zenimax is using reportedly counts movement, so it is completely irrelevant. We need to be using Casts Per Minute or something.

You can see casts per minute in esologs, and I can usually tell that the people doing more dps than me also have higher CPM, and vice versa. And the gap is significant in either direction.

Hanokihs

LiquidPony wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

The APM Zenimax is using reportedly counts movement, so it is completely irrelevant. We need to be using Casts Per Minute or something.

Yeah but all their real testing (and skill balancing, whether people want to accept it or not) is based on the target dummies, where most mechanics and movement are pointless. I don't think they're really considering that aspect at all.

That's why they're trying so hard to nerf the DPS ceiling, without considering tanks and healers; because the parse numbers have gotten so high, and the gap is so wide, it's making it hard to truly balance the game for the majority of players.

How many times do we need to "nerf the DPS ceiling"?

It wasn't more than 6-7 months ago that virtually every build in the game was closing in on 100k DPS on the Trial Dummy, with stamcros and stamsorcs pushing close to 110k. Hell, magblades were the bottom of the barrel and hitting 95k. Magdens were hitting 98k.

Today we've got a few builds (stamplar, magDK, stamcro) in the mid-90s, and pretty much everything else in the mid-to-high 80ks.

A lot of builds lost 10-15k DPS post-Scalebreaker. I thought we already nerfed the DPS ceiling?

I mean, they probably won't be happy until endgame content is accessible to the majority of players, because they can't just keep making new classes to push chapter sales. It's gotta be a balancing nightmare every time, and they have yet to get it right on the first try. And what's the point in doing dlc releases like dungeons and trials if only the same few-dozen players/guilds ever see it?

All speculation on my part, but I don't think they'll be happy until they shorten the gap by about 20-25k somehow. Instead of weakening attacks, which slams everyone, they appear to be catering more to how lower/mid dps players intuitively play. Seems to include reverting some changes that accidentally made the gap bigger - and I'm sure the CP overhaul thing is coming as well.

LadyNalcarya

Hanokihs wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

The APM Zenimax is using reportedly counts movement, so it is completely irrelevant. We need to be using Casts Per Minute or something.

Yeah but all their real testing (and skill balancing, whether people want to accept it or not) is based on the target dummies, where most mechanics and movement are pointless. I don't think they're really considering that aspect at all.

That's why they're trying so hard to nerf the DPS ceiling, without considering tanks and healers; because the parse numbers have gotten so high, and the gap is so wide, it's making it hard to truly balance the game for the majority of players.

How many times do we need to "nerf the DPS ceiling"?

It wasn't more than 6-7 months ago that virtually every build in the game was closing in on 100k DPS on the Trial Dummy, with stamcros and stamsorcs pushing close to 110k. Hell, magblades were the bottom of the barrel and hitting 95k. Magdens were hitting 98k.

Today we've got a few builds (stamplar, magDK, stamcro) in the mid-90s, and pretty much everything else in the mid-to-high 80ks.

A lot of builds lost 10-15k DPS post-Scalebreaker. I thought we already nerfed the DPS ceiling?

I mean, they probably won't be happy until endgame content is accessible to the majority of players, because they can't just keep making new classes to push chapter sales. It's gotta be a balancing nightmare every time, and they have yet to get it right on the first try. And what's the point in doing dlc releases like dungeons and trials if only the same few-dozen players/guilds ever see it?

All speculation on my part, but I don't think they'll be happy until they shorten the gap by about 20-25k somehow. Instead of weakening attacks, which slams everyone, they appear to be catering more to how lower/mid dps players intuitively play. Seems to include reverting some changes that accidentally made the gap bigger - and I'm sure the CP overhaul thing is coming as well.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking... But nerfing overall dps makes the content less accessible for mid-tier players because dps requirements are not going away. And if it gets nerfed drastically, low tier players won't even be able to get a carry, let alone clear it on their own.

Sanguinor2

Hanokihs wrote: »

I mean, they probably won't be happy until endgame content is accessible to the majority of players, because they can't just keep making new classes to push chapter sales. It's gotta be a balancing nightmare every time, and they have yet to get it right on the first try. And what's the point in doing dlc releases like dungeons and trials if only the same few-dozen players/guilds ever see it?

All speculation on my part, but I don't think they'll be happy until they shorten the gap by about 20-25k somehow. Instead of weakening attacks, which slams everyone, they appear to be catering more to how lower/mid dps players intuitively play. Seems to include reverting some changes that accidentally made the gap bigger - and I'm sure the CP overhaul thing is coming as well.

Everything is accessible in normal mode. Normal mode has next to no requirements since you can ignore near every mechanic that would make the Content difficult and dps checks are near non existent since everything has much lower Health. Vet mode and vet hardmode is the same Content only in more difficult, so again, every piece of Content is accessible for everyone.

They are weakening attacks with this update and doing Nothing to compensate for that. Roles that didnt Need to light attack weave will have to for Sustain and the lowest Players that only spam light attacks and use Little to no abilities just took a 78% Damage nerf.

I wouldnt be too sure on the CP overhaul coming anytime this year or Maybe even the next. They said they were working on CP changes since over a year and yet they have Nothing to Show which would be worth sharing, not even a General direction in which they want to take CP.

VirtualElizabeth

I have been gone from ESO for awhile - what in the heck is APM???

Royaji

VirtualElizabeth wrote: »

I have been gone from ESO for awhile - what in the heck is APM???

The latest "hip" gamedev word Wheeler has picked up to make himself look more competent. Just like the whole "kiss-curse" thing last year.

nublife01

Royaji wrote: »

VirtualElizabeth wrote: »

I have been gone from ESO for awhile - what in the heck is APM???

The latest "hip" gamedev word Wheeler has picked up to make himself look more competent. Just like the whole "kiss-curse" thing last year.

<insert highly toxic yet accurate comments about anonymous's blank here>. wrobel, i miss you.

nublife01

they disemboweled my pvp stamblade now theyre just plain old dancing on his grave. rest in piece young nublifeson. your fight is over now.

xeNNNNN

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

APM doesn't affect just weaving
If you have bad APM you probably aren't casting a skill every second either, and learning to weave faster teaches you to cast skills faster with rhythm and fluidity.

ile we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb. Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options. This is particularly evident in veteran content and PvP.

It guides you to learn the GCD better, it's not some evil barrier in fact it helps you get past the barrier.
Saying the gap is important but then making it only do 22% of the damage it is doing now, it makes the skill only a sustain buff, which makes your statement invalidate itself by showing the damage it is doing now isn't all that important.
Reducing the damage is just putting lower skill gap players at risk to be unable to clear content for having less damage overall even at inferior weaves.
Lower the damage to .22 on a .5lps is just .11, it's not altering the skill gap it's just giving less options, yet you preach more options.

Finally, the concept of using light attacks for damage and heavy attacks for restore is, quite simply, unintuitive – especially for less experienced players.

It's not anymore intuitive the other way around, especially for your veteran players.

My analysis :

Light attacks giving sustain is actually super nice, but the inferior damage isn't.
78% nerf may be a bit too much, perhaps make it 30% or even 20%
If you're so worried about the skill gap teach it in a tutorial, much like typing classes increase your typing speed by practice, this is no different as both are governed by actions per minute ( APM ).

The way I see it is that they are trying to find the middle ground between high tier and low tier players because having that middle ground would make it much easier to make far more engaging content for everyone.

However the changes contradict their overall goal which was to reduce the skill gap between the types of players. By lowering the damage in the game generally and moving HA restore to LA and LA damage to HA that means alls they've respectively done for "APM" is say to lower tier players "hey yeah you cant get the damage they can and now they cant do as much DPS but also you've lost DPS too so we've given the better players more sustain and you will have less". Because it really does boil down to moving the goal posts or rather, changing the type of goal posts (moving the sustain safety net from the back to the front).

Not that lower end players will overly suffer per say but now with the resulted loss of damage and the lack of change or rebalance to pre-existing content this will all blow up in their face.

Side note on the "Doesn't count as weaving"; How does that work? because you're still clicking your mouse button (or controller button) in order to create an action within the game environment so how does an action not count as an action?

llBlack_Heartll

xeNNNNN wrote: »

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

APM doesn't affect just weaving
If you have bad APM you probably aren't casting a skill every second either, and learning to weave faster teaches you to cast skills faster with rhythm and fluidity.

ile we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb. Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options. This is particularly evident in veteran content and PvP.

It guides you to learn the GCD better, it's not some evil barrier in fact it helps you get past the barrier.
Saying the gap is important but then making it only do 22% of the damage it is doing now, it makes the skill only a sustain buff, which makes your statement invalidate itself by showing the damage it is doing now isn't all that important.
Reducing the damage is just putting lower skill gap players at risk to be unable to clear content for having less damage overall even at inferior weaves.
Lower the damage to .22 on a .5lps is just .11, it's not altering the skill gap it's just giving less options, yet you preach more options.

Finally, the concept of using light attacks for damage and heavy attacks for restore is, quite simply, unintuitive – especially for less experienced players.

It's not anymore intuitive the other way around, especially for your veteran players.

My analysis :

Light attacks giving sustain is actually super nice, but the inferior damage isn't.
78% nerf may be a bit too much, perhaps make it 30% or even 20%
If you're so worried about the skill gap teach it in a tutorial, much like typing classes increase your typing speed by practice, this is no different as both are governed by actions per minute ( APM ).

The way I see it is that they are trying to find the middle ground between high tier and low tier players because having that middle ground would make it much easier to make far more engaging content for everyone.

However the changes contradict their overall goal which was to reduce the skill gap between the types of players. By lowering the damage in the game generally and moving HA restore to LA and LA damage to HA that means alls they've respectively done for "APM" is say to lower tier players "hey yeah you cant get the damage they can and now they cant do as much DPS but also you've lost DPS too so we've given the better players more sustain and you will have less". Because it really does boil down to moving the goal posts or rather, changing the type of goal posts (moving the sustain safety net from the back to the front).

Not that lower end players will overly suffer per say but now with the resulted loss of damage and the lack of change or rebalance to pre-existing content this will all blow up in their face.

Side note on the "Doesn't count as weaving"; How does that work? because you're still clicking your mouse button (or controller button) in order to create an action within the game environment so how does an action not count as an action?

You will never find a middle ground between Low end player and high end players, because high end players have taken time out to perfect the game and become better.
Low end don’t, it’s simple as that, they just play the game.

It’s just like any sport, if I want to make it out of reserve grade and get a spot in first grade, I need to train harder, get fitter, work on my skills etc, but until I am willing to put more time into that, I will always be at the level that my natural ability will let me.

ZeroXFF

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Side note on the "Doesn't count as weaving"; How does that work? because you're still clicking your mouse button (or controller button) in order to create an action within the game environment so how does an action not count as an action?

When you want to copy some text, is pressing Ctrl+C one action or two?

xeNNNNN

ZeroXFF wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Side note on the "Doesn't count as weaving"; How does that work? because you're still clicking your mouse button (or controller button) in order to create an action within the game environment so how does an action not count as an action?

When you want to copy some text, is pressing Ctrl+C one action or two?

Its one because its the combination not the individual buttons, but that argument still doesn't make sense because a mouse button in a game environment specifically in ESO does its own unique action. Ctrl on a keyboard is merely an enabling function not an action. Besides APM is typically only used in a game environment.

The only other possibility for it not being included is they're using accuracy in APM to separately calculate things but that also doesn't work because only in games like starcraft or in a FPS game (only to an extent) is accuracy relevant because in those games your clicks determine the accuracy of the player. However because tab target exists using accuracy in ESO to determine anything would be redundant because it heavily reduces the chance of missing your target.

ZeroXFF

xeNNNNN wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Side note on the "Doesn't count as weaving"; How does that work? because you're still clicking your mouse button (or controller button) in order to create an action within the game environment so how does an action not count as an action?

When you want to copy some text, is pressing Ctrl+C one action or two?

Its one because its the combination not the individual buttons, but that argument still doesn't make sense because a mouse button in a game environment specifically in ESO does its own unique action. Ctrl on a keyboard is merely an enabling function not an action. Besides APM is typically only used in a game environment.

The only other possibility for it not being included is they're using accuracy in APM to separately calculate things but that also doesn't work because only in games like starcraft or in a FPS game (only to an extent) is accuracy relevant because in those games your clicks determine the accuracy of the player. However because tab target exists using accuracy in ESO to determine anything would be redundant because it heavily reduces the chance of missing your target.

It is one action in ESO too, because if you're not clicking before the skill, you're doing it wrong. There is no decision involved like "do I want to copy or do I want to type C", no, you only have the decision between "am I doing damage or am I not doing damage", and if you're doing damage, you have to click, otherwise you're doing it wrong.

Jayroo

LiquidPony wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

The APM Zenimax is using reportedly counts movement, so it is completely irrelevant. We need to be using Casts Per Minute or something.

Yeah but all their real testing (and skill balancing, whether people want to accept it or not) is based on the target dummies, where most mechanics and movement are pointless. I don't think they're really considering that aspect at all.

That's why they're trying so hard to nerf the DPS ceiling, without considering tanks and healers; because the parse numbers have gotten so high, and the gap is so wide, it's making it hard to truly balance the game for the majority of players.

How many times do we need to "nerf the DPS ceiling"?

It wasn't more than 6-7 months ago that virtually every build in the game was closing in on 100k DPS on the Trial Dummy, with stamcros and stamsorcs pushing close to 110k. Hell, magblades were the bottom of the barrel and hitting 95k. Magdens were hitting 98k.

Today we've got a few builds (stamplar, magDK, stamcro) in the mid-90s, and pretty much everything else in the mid-to-high 80ks.

A lot of builds lost 10-15k DPS post-Scalebreaker. I thought we already nerfed the DPS ceiling?

They tried to nerf dps while ignoring the glaringly obvious issue of incredibly overpowered light attacks to appease the weave lords who will no doubt attain crippling arthritis by the age of 30