Actions Per Minute

eso_lags

Ratzkifal wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

People are saying APM doesn't matter because of global cooldowns, but it's not just one skill per second.
You can do one skill per second, one light attack per second, a bar swap, drink a potion and activate a synergy all in the same second.
If you are using weapon swap to cancel animations, then you are doing a lot of barswapping in your rotation in addition to skills and light attacks. Low APM people don't cancel their animations and thus cast less than 1 ability per second because they wait for the ability's animation to finish.

Don't pretend like this is not part of the issue.

What issue? People can learn to do the exact same things like everyone else does.

No. They can't. That's the whole issue. Not everyone can move their fingers that fast. There are extreme cases of people with disabilities who are physically unable to move fast enough but there are also less extreme cases of people having their hands start hurting from moving any faster.

Then why are they playing a game with fast paced combat? Im so confused why this argument doesnt come up in fortnite. Or any other competitive game out there. This *** is so sad to see. Im not as concerned with the changes zos proposed as I am about is the tone of that whole post had. Just their mindset on making things easier for people who cant or wont get better at the game. Everyone deserves a trophy I suppose.

But dont make this out to be about disabled people and people who cant improve, most people just dont want to take the time to get better because there is no incentive. And most of them dont care, otherwise we would have been hearing about APM years ago.

And btw, if this guy can play streetfighter competitively then no one should be complaining about apm in eso pve. Its just a lame excuse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2SNwKvWiVc

TheFM

eso_lags wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

People are saying APM doesn't matter because of global cooldowns, but it's not just one skill per second.
You can do one skill per second, one light attack per second, a bar swap, drink a potion and activate a synergy all in the same second.
If you are using weapon swap to cancel animations, then you are doing a lot of barswapping in your rotation in addition to skills and light attacks. Low APM people don't cancel their animations and thus cast less than 1 ability per second because they wait for the ability's animation to finish.

Don't pretend like this is not part of the issue.

What issue? People can learn to do the exact same things like everyone else does.

No. They can't. That's the whole issue. Not everyone can move their fingers that fast. There are extreme cases of people with disabilities who are physically unable to move fast enough but there are also less extreme cases of people having their hands start hurting from moving any faster.

Then why are they playing a game with fast paced combat? Im so confused why this argument doesnt come up in fortnite. Or any other competitive game out there. This *** is so sad to see. Im not as concerned with the changes zos proposed as I am about is the tone of that whole post had. Just their mindset on making things easier for people who cant or wont get better at the game. Everyone deserves a trophy I suppose.

But dont make this out to be about disabled people and people who cant improve, most people just dont want to take the time to get better because there is no incentive. And most of them dont care, otherwise we would have been hearing about APM years ago.

And btw, if this guy can play streetfighter competitively then no one should be complaining about apm in eso pve. Its just a lame excuse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2SNwKvWiVc

My eyes aren't the best and I have rheumatism and I changed my input device and low and behold, I got better. You're 💯 correct.

exeeter702

eso_lags wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

People are saying APM doesn't matter because of global cooldowns, but it's not just one skill per second.
You can do one skill per second, one light attack per second, a bar swap, drink a potion and activate a synergy all in the same second.
If you are using weapon swap to cancel animations, then you are doing a lot of barswapping in your rotation in addition to skills and light attacks. Low APM people don't cancel their animations and thus cast less than 1 ability per second because they wait for the ability's animation to finish.

Don't pretend like this is not part of the issue.

What issue? People can learn to do the exact same things like everyone else does.

No. They can't. That's the whole issue. Not everyone can move their fingers that fast. There are extreme cases of people with disabilities who are physically unable to move fast enough but there are also less extreme cases of people having their hands start hurting from moving any faster.

Then why are they playing a game with fast paced combat? Im so confused why this argument doesnt come up in fortnite. Or any other competitive game out there. This *** is so sad to see. Im not as concerned with the changes zos proposed as I am about is the tone of that whole post had. Just their mindset on making things easier for people who cant or wont get better at the game. Everyone deserves a trophy I suppose.

But dont make this out to be about disabled people and people who cant improve, most people just dont want to take the time to get better because there is no incentive. And most of them dont care, otherwise we would have been hearing about APM years ago.

And btw, if this guy can play streetfighter competitively then no one should be complaining about apm in eso pve. Its just a lame excuse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2SNwKvWiVc

No joke, Im literally in that thumbnail frame lol,Brolylegs is one of the coolest guys ever. Hearing about people complain in this game when it comes to difficulty weaving light attacks and simply playing the combat system as it was intended to be played makes me laugh, especially when you consider how pedestrian the "APM" is in ESO compared to any fighting game.

Then again the FGC is cut from a MUCH MUCH thicker cloth so....

*shrug

eso_lags

exeeter702 wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

People are saying APM doesn't matter because of global cooldowns, but it's not just one skill per second.
You can do one skill per second, one light attack per second, a bar swap, drink a potion and activate a synergy all in the same second.
If you are using weapon swap to cancel animations, then you are doing a lot of barswapping in your rotation in addition to skills and light attacks. Low APM people don't cancel their animations and thus cast less than 1 ability per second because they wait for the ability's animation to finish.

Don't pretend like this is not part of the issue.

What issue? People can learn to do the exact same things like everyone else does.

No. They can't. That's the whole issue. Not everyone can move their fingers that fast. There are extreme cases of people with disabilities who are physically unable to move fast enough but there are also less extreme cases of people having their hands start hurting from moving any faster.

Then why are they playing a game with fast paced combat? Im so confused why this argument doesnt come up in fortnite. Or any other competitive game out there. This *** is so sad to see. Im not as concerned with the changes zos proposed as I am about is the tone of that whole post had. Just their mindset on making things easier for people who cant or wont get better at the game. Everyone deserves a trophy I suppose.

But dont make this out to be about disabled people and people who cant improve, most people just dont want to take the time to get better because there is no incentive. And most of them dont care, otherwise we would have been hearing about APM years ago.

And btw, if this guy can play streetfighter competitively then no one should be complaining about apm in eso pve. Its just a lame excuse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2SNwKvWiVc

No joke, Im literally in that thumbnail frame lol,Brolylegs is one of the coolest guys ever. Hearing about people complain in this game when it comes to difficulty weaving light attacks and simply playing the combat system as it was intended to be played makes me laugh, especially when you consider how pedestrian the "APM" is in ESO compared to any fighting game.

Then again the FGC is cut from a MUCH MUCH thicker cloth so....

*shrug

They certainly are and ya hes awesome, his story is mind blowing. That guy should honestly be a god damn inspiration to everyone.

But one of the reasons I always loved eso combat is because its closer to a fighting game more than other mmos are. Its sad too because the combat is really good but performance has hurt it so much. And the arguments that people are making, and the tone of that post from gina, is like the complete opposite of what a competitive game should be. Sad to see.

exeeter702

eso_lags wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

People are saying APM doesn't matter because of global cooldowns, but it's not just one skill per second.
You can do one skill per second, one light attack per second, a bar swap, drink a potion and activate a synergy all in the same second.
If you are using weapon swap to cancel animations, then you are doing a lot of barswapping in your rotation in addition to skills and light attacks. Low APM people don't cancel their animations and thus cast less than 1 ability per second because they wait for the ability's animation to finish.

Don't pretend like this is not part of the issue.

What issue? People can learn to do the exact same things like everyone else does.

No. They can't. That's the whole issue. Not everyone can move their fingers that fast. There are extreme cases of people with disabilities who are physically unable to move fast enough but there are also less extreme cases of people having their hands start hurting from moving any faster.

Then why are they playing a game with fast paced combat? Im so confused why this argument doesnt come up in fortnite. Or any other competitive game out there. This *** is so sad to see. Im not as concerned with the changes zos proposed as I am about is the tone of that whole post had. Just their mindset on making things easier for people who cant or wont get better at the game. Everyone deserves a trophy I suppose.

But dont make this out to be about disabled people and people who cant improve, most people just dont want to take the time to get better because there is no incentive. And most of them dont care, otherwise we would have been hearing about APM years ago.

And btw, if this guy can play streetfighter competitively then no one should be complaining about apm in eso pve. Its just a lame excuse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2SNwKvWiVc

No joke, Im literally in that thumbnail frame lol,Brolylegs is one of the coolest guys ever. Hearing about people complain in this game when it comes to difficulty weaving light attacks and simply playing the combat system as it was intended to be played makes me laugh, especially when you consider how pedestrian the "APM" is in ESO compared to any fighting game.

Then again the FGC is cut from a MUCH MUCH thicker cloth so....

*shrug

They certainly are and ya hes awesome, his story is mind blowing. That guy should honestly be a god damn inspiration to everyone.

But one of the reasons I always loved eso combat is because its closer to a fighting game more than other mmos are. Its sad too because the combat is really good but performance has hurt it so much. And the arguments that people are making, and the tone of that post from gina, is like the complete opposite of what a competitive game should be. Sad to see.

I understand the reason a game developer/ publisher would want to create access to their game for the broadest demographic range possible, but this in my eyes is extremely egregious to the point where it hurts the fundamental core principle of this games combat system.

kylewwefan

eso_lags wrote: »

idk wrote: »

naturebased wrote: »

Probably alcast and xynode and fengrush and players like that, maybe top 1 or 2%

Also, APM is kind if irrelevant. I could spam abilities and clicks for over 9000 APM but only about 10 of those would register due to lag and desyncs.

When talking APM it is only the actions that register. That is all that matters so the example of doing 9000 clicks per minute is not 9000 APM.

And yes, top players like Alcast raiding on top teams do have the higher APM. Players that raid with groups clearing the hardest content in an MMORPG tend to have the highest APM. This is not something specific to ESO. It is just that ESO requires a much higher skill level to play at the top levels of the game.

Are you trying to say eso requires more skill than other games to play at an end game pve level? If so, thats a pretty general statement to make and it sounds like *** tbh. What games are we comparing to? And what is the top level to you? Is it being able to complete DLC dungeons and trials? Or are we talking about something like the sunspire dragonbreak achievement?

Anyway, I'm already so sick of reading about APM but sadly this is only the beginning. I swear as soon as zos says something people will just hop on the bandwagon and go all in. Someone please find me a single mention of APM on the eso forums before march 23rd 2020. Im willing to bet there is none.

I’m with you there. Don’t think you’re gonna find it.

I’m also not following the bash weave ani cancel thing. Not confused here. I know the difference.

That is not necessary to get you good damage, and not practical on any fight other than a dummy. I’m not saying it’s not possible, just not practical and I can’t say I’ve ever seen anyone pull that off in any kind of content.

I’m still quite new to playing on pc, but I have noticed the dps to do vet content is nowhere close to what people expect you to do on the dummy. And I’m talking like 15k~25k tops.

Actions Per Minute? Yeah, before Mar. 23 2020 I’ve never heard that term used.

That’s why I figured it would be post worthy and to try and explore its meaning and implications in this game. It mostly started and ended with the global cool downs.

While there are a few that feel like they’re doing something furiously hammering away on their lap, I get the feeling the general consensus is likely one or two actions per second is enough and this game isn’t gonna handle your vigorous motions more than that.

ZOS_FalcoYamaoka

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Jeremy

naturebased wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

People are saying APM doesn't matter because of global cooldowns, but it's not just one skill per second.
You can do one skill per second, one light attack per second, a bar swap, drink a potion and activate a synergy all in the same second.
If you are using weapon swap to cancel animations, then you are doing a lot of barswapping in your rotation in addition to skills and light attacks. Low APM people don't cancel their animations and thus cast less than 1 ability per second because they wait for the ability's animation to finish.

Don't pretend like this is not part of the issue.

What issue? People can learn to do the exact same things like everyone else does.

No. They can't. That's the whole issue. Not everyone can move their fingers that fast. There are extreme cases of people with disabilities who are physically unable to move fast enough but there are also less extreme cases of people having their hands start hurting from moving any faster.

It would be more effective for ESO to have a built-in macro for those struggling with rotations or the disabled than to just uproot the whole combat system. There are alternatives.

It's not really uprooting the whole combat system. Weaving is still a thing. The only difference is weaving is used more for resource gain now. It's just a small change to help close the gap between players who make liberal use of weaving and animation canceling and those who don't.

It's not a big deal really, and the heavy attack change is kind of cool. I always thought it was silly how heavy attacks were mostly used for resource gain (and not damage) and I hated how empower worked with light attacks. Heavy attacks should be slow and powerful. Light Attacks should be quick and weak.

Kawiki

I am going to preface this by saying that I weave just fine. I did learn from this thread that we should be ani canceling also. So let me get this straight, it should be LA->ability->block->LA so thats 4 actions per second.

This is going to unpopular but that’s the stupidest combat system I have ever seen.

I agree with others that this change will do nothing to reduce the separation between players because at its core the system is completely flawed to begin with.

Royaji

Kawiki wrote: »

I am going to preface this by saying that I weave just fine. I did learn from this thread that we should be ani canceling also. So let me get this straight, it should be LA->ability->block->LA so thats 4 actions per second.

This is going to unpopular but that’s the stupidest combat system I have ever seen.

I agree with others that this change will do nothing to reduce the separation between players because at its core the system is completely flawed to begin with.

You've learned wrong. LA > Skill every second is more than enough for everything in ESO.

Jeremy

Kawiki wrote: »

I am going to preface this by saying that I weave just fine. I did learn from this thread that we should be ani canceling also. So let me get this straight, it should be LA->ability->block->LA so thats 4 actions per second.

This is going to unpopular but that’s the stupidest combat system I have ever seen.

I agree with others that this change will do nothing to reduce the separation between players because at its core the system is completely flawed to begin with.

I like weaving. But the animation canceling crap is pretty stupid, I would agree.

exeeter702

Kawiki wrote: »

I am going to preface this by saying that I weave just fine. I did learn from this thread that we should be ani canceling also. So let me get this straight, it should be LA->ability->block->LA so thats 4 actions per second.

This is going to unpopular but that’s the stupidest combat system I have ever seen.

I agree with others that this change will do nothing to reduce the separation between players because at its core the system is completely flawed to begin with.

Well that isnt straight. Its LA>ability>repeat. Block canceling recovery animations does nothing for your rotation and does not circumvent the GCD in anyway whatsoever and historically never has, full stop.

For what it's worth other mmos generally have way more actions taken in a given time frame for traditional combat. ESO is child's play by comparison.

TheFM

Jeremy wrote: »

naturebased wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

People are saying APM doesn't matter because of global cooldowns, but it's not just one skill per second.
You can do one skill per second, one light attack per second, a bar swap, drink a potion and activate a synergy all in the same second.
If you are using weapon swap to cancel animations, then you are doing a lot of barswapping in your rotation in addition to skills and light attacks. Low APM people don't cancel their animations and thus cast less than 1 ability per second because they wait for the ability's animation to finish.

Don't pretend like this is not part of the issue.

What issue? People can learn to do the exact same things like everyone else does.

No. They can't. That's the whole issue. Not everyone can move their fingers that fast. There are extreme cases of people with disabilities who are physically unable to move fast enough but there are also less extreme cases of people having their hands start hurting from moving any faster.

It would be more effective for ESO to have a built-in macro for those struggling with rotations or the disabled than to just uproot the whole combat system. There are alternatives.

It's not really uprooting the whole combat system. Weaving is still a thing. The only difference is weaving is used more for resource gain now. It's just a small change to help close the gap between players who make liberal use of weaving and animation canceling and those who don't.

It's not a big deal really, and the heavy attack change is kind of cool. I always thought it was silly how heavy attacks were mostly used for resource gain (and not damage) and I hated how empower worked with light attacks. Heavy attacks should be slow and powerful. Light Attacks should be quick and weak.

a 78 percent reduction in damage is a HUGE nerf, it will make the tank meta in pvp 100 times worse unless they also increase base damage of class and weapon abilities. LUCKILY it looks like they are looking at Codes idea of only reducing damage by 20 percent on light attacks instead of just blindly pushing through demolishing the la playstyle and forcing everyone to do boring slow mind numbing ha builds.-

TheFM

exeeter702 wrote: »

Kawiki wrote: »

I am going to preface this by saying that I weave just fine. I did learn from this thread that we should be ani canceling also. So let me get this straight, it should be LA->ability->block->LA so thats 4 actions per second.

This is going to unpopular but that’s the stupidest combat system I have ever seen.

I agree with others that this change will do nothing to reduce the separation between players because at its core the system is completely flawed to begin with.

Well that isnt straight. Its LA>ability>repeat. Block canceling recovery animations does nothing for your rotation and does not circumvent the GCD in anyway whatsoever and historically never has, full stop.

For what it's worth other mmos generally have way more actions taken in a given time frame for traditional combat. ESO is child's play by comparison.

And they want to slow it down EVEN more, its absurd.

Kawiki

exeeter702 wrote: »

Kawiki wrote: »

I am going to preface this by saying that I weave just fine. I did learn from this thread that we should be ani canceling also. So let me get this straight, it should be LA->ability->block->LA so thats 4 actions per second.

This is going to unpopular but that’s the stupidest combat system I have ever seen.

I agree with others that this change will do nothing to reduce the separation between players because at its core the system is completely flawed to begin with.

Well that isnt straight. Its LA>ability>repeat. Block canceling recovery animations does nothing for your rotation and does not circumvent the GCD in anyway whatsoever and historically never has, full stop.

For what it's worth other mmos generally have way more actions taken in a given time frame for traditional combat. ESO is child's play by comparison.

There are some posts on page 1 by daemonios that basically describes what I said. So there is a disconnect somewhere. I'll test over the weekend myself but if he is accurate then I can see why there is a huge gap and why many are rebelling at this change.

Personally I have no issues adjusting either way. My main issue is the unintended consequences for some races and skill lines. That being said if he is accurate it's a pretty stupid mechanic to get optimal damage.

daemonios

exeeter702 wrote: »

Kawiki wrote: »

I am going to preface this by saying that I weave just fine. I did learn from this thread that we should be ani canceling also. So let me get this straight, it should be LA->ability->block->LA so thats 4 actions per second.

This is going to unpopular but that’s the stupidest combat system I have ever seen.

I agree with others that this change will do nothing to reduce the separation between players because at its core the system is completely flawed to begin with.

Well that isnt straight. Its LA>ability>repeat. Block canceling recovery animations does nothing for your rotation and does not circumvent the GCD in anyway whatsoever and historically never has, full stop.

For what it's worth other mmos generally have way more actions taken in a given time frame for traditional combat. ESO is child's play by comparison.

It's not meant to circumvent any cooldown. It's meant to allow you to fire the next LA as soon as you're allowed, instead of waiting for the animation to complete on a skill whose damage has already registered. Not all skills need to be cancelled for this, and cancelling some skills too soon won't let them go off at all, so you need to see for yourself, in your rotation, what needs to be cancelled and what doesn't.

Drdeath20

Jeremy wrote: »

naturebased wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

People are saying APM doesn't matter because of global cooldowns, but it's not just one skill per second.
You can do one skill per second, one light attack per second, a bar swap, drink a potion and activate a synergy all in the same second.
If you are using weapon swap to cancel animations, then you are doing a lot of barswapping in your rotation in addition to skills and light attacks. Low APM people don't cancel their animations and thus cast less than 1 ability per second because they wait for the ability's animation to finish.

Don't pretend like this is not part of the issue.

What issue? People can learn to do the exact same things like everyone else does.

No. They can't. That's the whole issue. Not everyone can move their fingers that fast. There are extreme cases of people with disabilities who are physically unable to move fast enough but there are also less extreme cases of people having their hands start hurting from moving any faster.

It would be more effective for ESO to have a built-in macro for those struggling with rotations or the disabled than to just uproot the whole combat system. There are alternatives.

It's not really uprooting the whole combat system. Weaving is still a thing. The only difference is weaving is used more for resource gain now. It's just a small change to help close the gap between players who make liberal use of weaving and animation canceling and those who don't.

It's not a big deal really, and the heavy attack change is kind of cool. I always thought it was silly how heavy attacks were mostly used for resource gain (and not damage) and I hated how empower worked with light attacks. Heavy attacks should be slow and powerful. Light Attacks should be quick and weak.

When your going for harder to get endgame achievements, damage is king. Typically sustain is a non issue in endgame. If this change goes live there will be zero reason to practice and perfect a rotation bcz even if you are sloppy the drop off is small.

most of the games population havent even come close to earing some tougher tropies. This is not just a nerf to high APM players, this is a nerf to every player. Lastly some players made their characters bretons specifically for endgame, this change just makes their characters oversustain.

JumpmanLane

The global cool down is in itself a cap on skill actions per minute. Whats left, movement, bar swapping, blocking, a handful of actions outside of skills. I unno...its a PvE nerf for sure as this seems to be directed solely at damage per second. (PvP center around burst, not DPS). Sure, there are burst combos folks whine about. Sure, folks whine about not being able to respond quickly to certain ultimates in PvP. Yet no one at ZOS PvP's (or PvP's well). Serious PvPers dont count on AC due to lag. They DO it; but they dont COUNT on it.

My point about that is ZOS has no way of knowing or even understanding complaints about LOW APM (if there are any) with respect to PVP. All they'sd have to do is try their own vTrials and not be able to complete them, much less make a leader board, through their very own poor efforts in a trial. Or a vet DLC dungeon. Something FUNDAMENTAL has to be wrong with the game if this is the case.

I wonder what @ZOS_Gilliam 's take on all of this is: because say what you will about them, the guy knows how to parse HIGH on a dummy. It's all interesting and very boring at once. I mean whats the point of these changes. It's designed to help, casuals I suppose. Though casuals SHOULD be trying to IMPROVE at the game. So, too should the people who work at ZOS.

exeeter702

TheFM wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Kawiki wrote: »

I am going to preface this by saying that I weave just fine. I did learn from this thread that we should be ani canceling also. So let me get this straight, it should be LA->ability->block->LA so thats 4 actions per second.

This is going to unpopular but that’s the stupidest combat system I have ever seen.

I agree with others that this change will do nothing to reduce the separation between players because at its core the system is completely flawed to begin with.

Well that isnt straight. Its LA>ability>repeat. Block canceling recovery animations does nothing for your rotation and does not circumvent the GCD in anyway whatsoever and historically never has, full stop.

For what it's worth other mmos generally have way more actions taken in a given time frame for traditional combat. ESO is child's play by comparison.

And they want to slow it down EVEN more, its absurd.

Agreed.

exeeter702

daemonios wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Kawiki wrote: »

I am going to preface this by saying that I weave just fine. I did learn from this thread that we should be ani canceling also. So let me get this straight, it should be LA->ability->block->LA so thats 4 actions per second.

This is going to unpopular but that’s the stupidest combat system I have ever seen.

I agree with others that this change will do nothing to reduce the separation between players because at its core the system is completely flawed to begin with.

Well that isnt straight. Its LA>ability>repeat. Block canceling recovery animations does nothing for your rotation and does not circumvent the GCD in anyway whatsoever and historically never has, full stop.

For what it's worth other mmos generally have way more actions taken in a given time frame for traditional combat. ESO is child's play by comparison.

It's not meant to circumvent any cooldown. It's meant to allow you to fire the next LA as soon as you're allowed, instead of waiting for the animation to complete on a skill whose damage has already registered. Not all skills need to be cancelled for this, and cancelling some skills too soon won't let them go off at all, so you need to see for yourself, in your rotation, what needs to be cancelled and what doesn't.

This is actually not true either. Simply hit an instant cast skill then proceed to rapid tap light attack as fast as humanly possible, what you are going to notice is the light attack WILL fire as soon as the GCD refreshes, if there is a discrepancy, it is wildly outside the realm of which a block cancel is going to have any semblance of an influence server side. The variations you are seeing are entirely client side. It is why there is an explicit .5 second input buffer time on actions that obey the GCD.