Mages using melee weapons

Caelc

One thing i always hated with magblade, it felt wrong using a staff with it. So it seems, with this patch if you do not have sustain issues, you could use dual swords and not lose any damage. Also this allows you to get back a lot of stamina which could help with breaking free, rolling and all.
so dual wielding swords on magblade in melee range could be a thing.

Anything i am wrong about here?

5cript

your light attacks wont do damage, so I guess the scaling thing does not matter.
It benefits S&B Mag Builds imho.

Caelc

5cript wrote: »

your light attacks wont do damage, so I guess the scaling thing does not matter.
It benefits S&B Mag Builds imho.

they specifically said light attacks, heavy attacks would be based on your highest offensive stat. The weapon only matters on what resource it returns.

so if you use staff on back bar and melee on front you are doing full damage on your front bar with light and heavy attacks as you would with a staff but return stamina. ON back bar you would return magicka.

5cript

Do you really want to extensively heavy attack with melee wepons in pvp right now?
Good luck.

Lots of Heavy attacks with a staff "are a thing" / "can work".
But heavy attacks in melee can only be part of dizzy swing gameplay or a burst combination.

Expecting heavy attacks to be more than that is unrealistic.
Try that against a high mobility build. ALL Your attacks will get canceled in the current mess.

Caelc

5cript wrote: »

Do you really want to extensively heavy attack with melee wepons in pvp right now?
Good luck.

Lots of Heavy attacks with a staff "are a thing" / "can work".
But heavy attacks in melee can only be part of dizzy swing gameplay or a burst combination.

Expecting heavy attacks to be more than that is unrealistic.
Try that against a high mobility build. ALL Your attacks will get canceled in the current mess.

not talking about pvp, why do people think everything is about pvp

5cript

because you brought stamina recovery into the discussion, this is why I assumed you talked about it.
Of course you dodge etc in PvE, but you dont need it to nearly the same degree.

Also you cannot use weapon skills anymore on that bar with this, if thats not a problem and its about PvE, go ahead I guess.
(I am not a raid lead, a hardcore raid lead would probably not say that)

EDIT: You also trade the passives and the burning status effect (or concussed).

Scion_of_Yggdrasil

Caelc wrote: »

One thing i always hated with magblade, it felt wrong using a staff with it. So it seems, with this patch if you do not have sustain issues, you could use dual swords and not lose any damage. Also this allows you to get back a lot of stamina which could help with breaking free, rolling and all.
so dual wielding swords on magblade in melee range could be a thing.

Anything i am wrong about here?

Unless I read differently, I thought skills would still scale off their respective stats?

So, LA and HA would scale from whichever is highest. However, a stamina skill would still scale from your max stamina, even if your magicka is higher.

I think... *starts reading again*

Caelc

Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »

Caelc wrote: »

One thing i always hated with magblade, it felt wrong using a staff with it. So it seems, with this patch if you do not have sustain issues, you could use dual swords and not lose any damage. Also this allows you to get back a lot of stamina which could help with breaking free, rolling and all.
so dual wielding swords on magblade in melee range could be a thing.

Anything i am wrong about here?

Unless I read differently, I thought skills would still scale off their respective stats?

So, LA and HA would scale from whichever is highest. However, a stamina skill would still scale from your max stamina, even if your magicka is higher.

I think... *starts reading again*

they said light and heavy attacks would scale off your highest offensive stat, but weapons resource regen would be based on weapon type.

Most magicka classes don't have weapon skills on their front bar, only class that i have is magsorc,

Iskiab

You’re technically right but staff passives are better in pve than pvp. You’ll lose out on status effects and the destro passive that gives resources when you kill a mob.

If you don’t care about min-maxing then it’ll be fine. On bosses it should be similar, but you’ll run OOM on trash fights.

Scion_of_Yggdrasil

Caelc wrote: »

Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »

Caelc wrote: »

One thing i always hated with magblade, it felt wrong using a staff with it. So it seems, with this patch if you do not have sustain issues, you could use dual swords and not lose any damage. Also this allows you to get back a lot of stamina which could help with breaking free, rolling and all.
so dual wielding swords on magblade in melee range could be a thing.

Anything i am wrong about here?

Unless I read differently, I thought skills would still scale off their respective stats?

So, LA and HA would scale from whichever is highest. However, a stamina skill would still scale from your max stamina, even if your magicka is higher.

I think... *starts reading again*

they said light and heavy attacks would scale off your highest offensive stat, but weapons resource regen would be based on weapon type.

Most magicka classes don't have weapon skills on their front bar, only class that i have is magsorc,

Yah yah yah, but skills... what do they scale off of? After reading the PTS notes again, I'm assuming they will continue to scale like normal, based off the resource they draw from? So your bow will restore stam, not mag, yes... but when you use a bow skill, it will scale from your stamina, even though your magicka is highter, right?

That is my confusion.

[edit: I guess my point is, melee weapons in a mag build might not be as effective as I would like. Your weapons LA and HA would be boosted, yay, but any weapon skills would still be weak unless you invest in stam.]

Caelc

Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »

Caelc wrote: »

Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »

Caelc wrote: »

One thing i always hated with magblade, it felt wrong using a staff with it. So it seems, with this patch if you do not have sustain issues, you could use dual swords and not lose any damage. Also this allows you to get back a lot of stamina which could help with breaking free, rolling and all.
so dual wielding swords on magblade in melee range could be a thing.

Anything i am wrong about here?

Unless I read differently, I thought skills would still scale off their respective stats?

So, LA and HA would scale from whichever is highest. However, a stamina skill would still scale from your max stamina, even if your magicka is higher.

I think... *starts reading again*

they said light and heavy attacks would scale off your highest offensive stat, but weapons resource regen would be based on weapon type.

Most magicka classes don't have weapon skills on their front bar, only class that i have is magsorc,

Yah yah yah, but skills... what do they scale off of? After reading the PTS notes again, I'm assuming they will continue to scale like normal, based off the resource they draw from? So your bow will restore stam, not mag, yes... but when you use a bow skill, it will scale from your stamina, even though your magicka is highter, right?

That is my confusion.

[edit: I guess my point is, melee weapons in a mag build might not be as effective as I would like. Your weapons LA and HA would be boosted, yay, but any weapon skills would still be weak unless you invest in stam.]

you wouldnt be using any Weapon skills on your melee bar as most magicka classes don't use them on front . Just thinking it could be interesting

5cript

Btw even though I hate the proposed changes, I love this change.
Its minor, non destructive, allows more RP, its not a nerf.

Caelc

5cript wrote: »

Btw even though I hate the proposed changes, I love this change.
Its minor, non destructive, allows more RP, its not a nerf.

i just always hated being on magblade, sneaking around, then use lotus to teleport to your enemy and smack them on the head with a staff,

just doesnt fit.

SidraWillowsky

You're not wrong, but as someone mentioned, the destro staff passives are much better for mag players than the DW passives. I'm not sure if the Twin Blade and Blunt sword perk (flat damage increase, yeah?) would offset this.

I think you'd be able to pull decent DPS; enough to clear vet content, though Hodor probably wouldn't accept a build like that for vet HM Sunspire score runs.

Definitely more viable than before for sure, especially on Magblade- I have zero sustain issues since Leeching Strikes does exactly what the new LAs do, and since NBs have passives that increase crit quite a bit, you could probably afford to move some CP out of the passive that increases crit and into others that may help offset the loss of perks from not having a destro staff.

Now I'm curious and want to try. I only think this would work on a magblade, but it might greatly improve performance- a lot of NB skills just do not lend themselves well to staff usage (the mag morph of Surprise Attack doesn't work correctly because of the staff) and this might help a lot.

Caelc

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

You're not wrong, but as someone mentioned, the destro staff passives are much better for mag players than the DW passives. I'm not sure if the Twin Blade and Blunt sword perk (flat damage increase, yeah?) would offset this.

I think you'd be able to pull decent DPS; enough to clear vet content, though Hodor probably wouldn't accept a build like that for vet HM Sunspire score runs.

Definitely more viable than before for sure, especially on Magblade- I have zero sustain issues since Leeching Strikes does exactly what the new LAs do, and since NBs have passives that increase crit quite a bit, you could probably afford to move some CP out of the passive that increases crit and into others that may help offset the loss of perks from not having a destro staff.

Now I'm curious and want to try. I only think this would work on a magblade, but it might greatly improve performance- a lot of NB skills just do not lend themselves well to staff usage (the mag morph of Surprise Attack doesn't work correctly because of the staff) and this might help a lot.

I think for general PVE it will be fun. I dont like swallow soul, for some reason it makes my hands tired...

YandereGirlfriend

I think that using Swords will end up being totally viable for most PvE content, assuming that the rest of your build is good.

The Destruction Staff passives are really rather junky in a boss-fight type of scenario where you are at Penetration cap and have no extraneous extra mobs to kill for resources. You get some extra Burning uptime, which is fine, but unless you are a magDK it's not something to get overly hung up about.

It'd definitely be best on classes that use a near-even combination of single-target and AoE on their front-bar, such that using the default Inferno Staff misses buffing several of their key DPS skills and ultimates.

And now that Light Attacks have been nerfed into oblivion, getting that extra 8% on a very small number just doesn't move the needle like it did when those attacks hit harder.

Paradisius

I actually tried this on Magcro, using DW Swords front bar and inferno staff backbar vs double bar inferno staff, there is a dps decrease on the dw swords but in my testing it was a 1~3K damage difference, so if you want to use dw swords on the front bar for some RP reasons, your damage ultimately wont change much. However I do reccomend still using fire enchants with the swords! (Also, light attack weaving rotations as a whole lost dps with this PTS, but comparitvely on the PTS the 2 setups I used had similar dps)

Somewhere

I also tried dual swords on front bar with magDK and found it to be about the same or better than inferno staff, but only if you take advantage of the additional stamina recovery by bash weaving on every attack. Otherwise it's going to be worse.

Kolzki

One problem. CP. I tried parsing with dual swords on a magplar. Heavy attack damage was substaintially lower. Actually not just one problem, also lower penetration, not sure about crit chance and passives mostly only affecting weapon damage or crit.

idk

Kolzki wrote: »

One problem. CP. I tried parsing with dual swords on a magplar. Heavy attack damage was substaintially lower. Actually not just one problem, also lower penetration, not sure about crit chance and passives mostly only affecting weapon damage or crit.

This would make sense. Just because the attack scales off our largest resource does not mean it also works off the related stats such as penetration, crit and more. This might be fine for hybrid builds but not for pure builds that will still be top DPS. @Kolzki I would post your findings in the thread Zos created as it is feedback they may or may not want to act on.

@YandereGirlfriend Not arguing our point a few posts up but this person may have found the Achilles heel to your suggested results. Ofc, we will have to see what happens if this ever goes live.

TheFM

Caelc wrote: »

5cript wrote: »

your light attacks wont do damage, so I guess the scaling thing does not matter.
It benefits S&B Mag Builds imho.

they specifically said light attacks, heavy attacks would be based on your highest offensive stat. The weapon only matters on what resource it returns.

so if you use staff on back bar and melee on front you are doing full damage on your front bar with light and heavy attacks as you would with a staff but return stamina. ON back bar you would return magicka.

IT doesnt change the fact that your resource return will still be stamina with stam weapons, and magicka with magicka weapons. So its a half baked pointless empty jesture.

Caelc

TheFM wrote: »

Caelc wrote: »

5cript wrote: »

your light attacks wont do damage, so I guess the scaling thing does not matter.
It benefits S&B Mag Builds imho.

they specifically said light attacks, heavy attacks would be based on your highest offensive stat. The weapon only matters on what resource it returns.

so if you use staff on back bar and melee on front you are doing full damage on your front bar with light and heavy attacks as you would with a staff but return stamina. ON back bar you would return magicka.

IT doesnt change the fact that your resource return will still be stamina with stam weapons, and magicka with magicka weapons. So its a half baked pointless empty jesture.

and what is wrong with that? is there a problem having the ability to return both resources? I dont know how many times i have died in pugs because of a fake tank and i had no stamina to break free or dodge roll a big attack

TheFM

Caelc wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Caelc wrote: »

5cript wrote: »

your light attacks wont do damage, so I guess the scaling thing does not matter.
It benefits S&B Mag Builds imho.

they specifically said light attacks, heavy attacks would be based on your highest offensive stat. The weapon only matters on what resource it returns.

so if you use staff on back bar and melee on front you are doing full damage on your front bar with light and heavy attacks as you would with a staff but return stamina. ON back bar you would return magicka.

IT doesnt change the fact that your resource return will still be stamina with stam weapons, and magicka with magicka weapons. So its a half baked pointless empty jesture.

and what is wrong with that? is there a problem having the ability to return both resources? I dont know how many times i have died in pugs because of a fake tank and i had no stamina to break free or dodge roll a big attack

Tanks will be hit especially bad by this, because they will be forced to spam light attacks and if they spread their resources out like most do, the game wont even know where or which stat to return. Its a half baked, not thought through idea, that should die just like the cast times on shields did.

Caelc

TheFM wrote: »

Caelc wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Caelc wrote: »

5cript wrote: »

your light attacks wont do damage, so I guess the scaling thing does not matter.
It benefits S&B Mag Builds imho.

they specifically said light attacks, heavy attacks would be based on your highest offensive stat. The weapon only matters on what resource it returns.

so if you use staff on back bar and melee on front you are doing full damage on your front bar with light and heavy attacks as you would with a staff but return stamina. ON back bar you would return magicka.

IT doesnt change the fact that your resource return will still be stamina with stam weapons, and magicka with magicka weapons. So its a half baked pointless empty jesture.

and what is wrong with that? is there a problem having the ability to return both resources? I dont know how many times i have died in pugs because of a fake tank and i had no stamina to break free or dodge roll a big attack

Tanks will be hit especially bad by this, because they will be forced to spam light attacks and if they spread their resources out like most do, the game wont even know where or which stat to return. Its a half baked, not thought through idea, that should die just like the cast times on shields did.

I agree, i dont like it. They were told over and over enough with the big sweeping changes so then they turn around and make one of the biggest in years.

I am sick of farming sets every patch. Also, i just switched many of my characters to sustain races because i find it easier since i tend to pug a lot - allows me to change up food depending on how few synergies I get. With non sustain races you end up needed a spare set of rings to switch from wd to regen. From what i can see, it would make redguard, bosmer and Breton completely useless and extend the dps gap with them.

Tommy_The_Gun

I had a short flash-back style image from the past (long time ago when I did not knew anything about the game)...
...resto staff with poison / disease enchant... ?!

Edit:
Now that I think of it... would it work with Vigor ?

Essence Drain (resto staff passive):
You gain Major Mending for 3 seconds after completing a fully-charged Heavy Attack, increasing your Healing Done by 25%. You also heal yourself or an ally near the target for 30% of the damage inflicted by the final hit of a fully-charged Heavy Attack.

katorga

Didn't ZOS mention they were looking at combining penetration into a single debuff back when they changed ward and resolve to a single buff?

If they do that then melee weapons might become a real option for mag builds.

katorga

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I had a short flash-back style image from the past (long time ago when I did not knew anything about the game)...
...resto staff with poison / disease enchant... ?!

Edit:
Now that I think of it... would it work with Vigor ?

Essence Drain (resto staff passive):
You gain Major Mending for 3 seconds after completing a fully-charged Heavy Attack, increasing your Healing Done by 25%. You also heal yourself or an ally near the target for 30% of the damage inflicted by the final hit of a fully-charged Heavy Attack.

Back in the day resto was THE weapon. It had a passive that gave a 10% buff to all damage.

idk

katorga wrote: »

Didn't ZOS mention they were looking at combining penetration into a single debuff back when they changed ward and resolve to a single buff?

If they do that then melee weapons might become a real option for mag builds.

Crit would still be an issue.

Nser

good that lighlt attack damage scale off your highest offensive stat but i think light attacks should be return resoures  off your highest offensive stat also.
to make more builds available like hybrid builds plus most of magicka users use S/B or duel wield etc..
@ZOS_BrianWheeler