High APM what is this??

NoodleESO

As someone who defended Zos on their current silence I take it all back this is the biggest slap in the face you can give us. During these tough times people want security and consistency and now they are taking about flipping the whole game on its head for the millionth time. I am extremely upset with the changes to light attack and im sitting here on the verge of tears because I know I will lose the remaining of my friends list if the change goes through.

This is garbage, this doesn't improve the game at all. There NEEDS to be a skill gap, it's what pushes players to be competitive but these new changes to LA are dumbing the game down too much.

Its starting to feel like Zos isn't being honest with their stance on animation canceling and they word things so they can keep stringing us along

siddique

RIP.
2014-2020. It was fun and games.

Fur_like_snow

Yeah for a six year old game they sure make a lot of extreme changes every patch. I’d ask the question why is it necessary to overhaul combat?

karekiz

MagSorc No Pet

Did a parse with LA weaving on PTS (90 LA/s) - Breton + Parse food + raid dummy - 12% (Old parses are in range of 20+) of total damage on LA's and never went under 75% of mana.

Did a parse with 0 LA or Heavy attacks - Breton + Parse food + raid dummy - Went entirely out of resources before parse finished and did lower damage.

Yes you will have to LA. I don't know why people are freaking out.

Stam that use Rele at all will Still LA. etc. Go test on PTS


*Edit: IMO they want the game combat to utilize both Light Attacks and Heavy attacks. One being constant (LA) the other being Dynamic based on Off Balance (Heavy Attack) for full value. Just using one will hurt you.

AliasRed

Erm? read the thread title and the ops post, still none the wiser? A little explanation for the none 1337 amongst us might help us understand the point you are trying to make )

Veuth

The single only valid complaint about ACing is the fact that it doesn't come out that quickly on the other players screen, thus somewhat deceiving them into seeing only 3 abilities then dying from 6. All they gotta do is make it so everyone can see these fast abilities coming out consistently. I have been a huge fan of ACing in PvE when soloing difficult bosses and this has made it 100x more difficult now.

mav1234

AliasRed wrote: »

Erm? read the thread title and the ops post, still none the wiser? A little explanation for the none 1337 amongst us might help us understand the point you are trying to make )

referring to the proposed changes in the pts forum.

frankly I am fine with weaving becoming less necessary or important for raw damage dealing. However it is going to greatly reduce burst damage, which is the only way to kill people in the current meta.

relentless_turnip

To those of us well versed in weaving this does mean we are gaining 400 recovery basically via muscle memory... I think if you invest this gain into more damage it adds about 800 damage to all of your tooltips. It is still an overall damage nerf and still leaves an experienced player nerfed.

Why not just add a tutorial to the game and add a step instead of lowering the ceiling...
It would help players learn to play and not *** off your existing community...

pma_pacifier

karekiz wrote: »

MagSorc No Pet

Did a parse with LA weaving on PTS (90 LA/s) - Breton + Parse food + raid dummy - 12% (Old parses are in range of 20+) of total damage on LA's and never went under 75% of mana.

Did a parse with 0 LA or Heavy attacks - Breton + Parse food + raid dummy - Went entirely out of resources before parse finished and did lower damage.

Yes you will have to LA. I don't know why people are freaking out.

Stam that use Rele at all will Still LA. etc. Go test on PTS

WAT? I need to LA????? shouldn't the change make it so that I don't need to do such stuff?

"While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb. Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options."

I should not have to rely on LA weaving now on PTS, come on.

Rikumaru

pma_pacifier wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

MagSorc No Pet

Did a parse with LA weaving on PTS (90 LA/s) - Breton + Parse food + raid dummy - 12% (Old parses are in range of 20+) of total damage on LA's and never went under 75% of mana.

Did a parse with 0 LA or Heavy attacks - Breton + Parse food + raid dummy - Went entirely out of resources before parse finished and did lower damage.

Yes you will have to LA. I don't know why people are freaking out.

Stam that use Rele at all will Still LA. etc. Go test on PTS

WAT? I need to LA????? shouldn't the change make it so that I don't need to do such stuff?

"While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb. Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options."

I should not have to rely on LA weaving now on PTS, come on.

You don't have to la weave to do content. It's just going to always provide an advantage if you do.

zDan

I am more-so extremely pissed off with the way they acknowledged the skill gap and saying it's too high. It's not. Learn the damn game like all of the veteran players have done and go through the experience of improving whether it be PvE or PvP. This has really cemented what ZOS is trying to do with their game in catering to casuals, we all knew it was slowly becoming a thing, but this just confirms it. Veteran players get nothing in return and are consistently having to change up playstyles in ever-changing metas. Really disappointed in what they have said here.

pma_pacifier

Rikumaru wrote: »

pma_pacifier wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

MagSorc No Pet

Did a parse with LA weaving on PTS (90 LA/s) - Breton + Parse food + raid dummy - 12% (Old parses are in range of 20+) of total damage on LA's and never went under 75% of mana.

Did a parse with 0 LA or Heavy attacks - Breton + Parse food + raid dummy - Went entirely out of resources before parse finished and did lower damage.

Yes you will have to LA. I don't know why people are freaking out.

Stam that use Rele at all will Still LA. etc. Go test on PTS

WAT? I need to LA????? shouldn't the change make it so that I don't need to do such stuff?

"While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb. Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options."

I should not have to rely on LA weaving now on PTS, come on.

You don't have to la weave to do content. It's just going to always provide an advantage if you do.

Oh. So this critical advantage is so serious to require manhours/$ spent for a SDLC to make such a change eh. sounds like a big issue i didnt know of, ouch.

TheRealCherokeee3

NoodleESO wrote: »

As someone who defended Zos on their current silence I take it all back this is the biggest slap in the face you can give us. During these tough times people want security and consistency and now they are taking about flipping the whole game on its head for the millionth time. I am extremely upset with the changes to light attack and im sitting here on the verge of tears because I know I will lose the remaining of my friends list if the change goes through.

This is garbage, this doesn't improve the game at all. There NEEDS to be a skill gap, it's what pushes players to be competitive but these new changes to LA are dumbing the game down too much.

Its starting to feel like Zos isn't being honest with their stance on animation canceling and they word things so they can keep stringing us along

Yep! I mentioned this a number of times. They aren't. They used a known previous gamer (Gilliam) and programming speech to sneak in a blunt change many players specifically requested not be made. High cost increases per last few updates and slowed combat and now this...they have a long con and it's to slow everything substantially while using sales speech of "this is a fast paced combat game where you play as you want!" Frankly I dont even know why they bother having a PTS anymore as they will continue their specific vision no matter what.

John_Falstaff

Rikumaru wrote: »

pma_pacifier wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

MagSorc No Pet

Did a parse with LA weaving on PTS (90 LA/s) - Breton + Parse food + raid dummy - 12% (Old parses are in range of 20+) of total damage on LA's and never went under 75% of mana.

Did a parse with 0 LA or Heavy attacks - Breton + Parse food + raid dummy - Went entirely out of resources before parse finished and did lower damage.

Yes you will have to LA. I don't know why people are freaking out.

Stam that use Rele at all will Still LA. etc. Go test on PTS

WAT? I need to LA????? shouldn't the change make it so that I don't need to do such stuff?

"While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb. Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options."

I should not have to rely on LA weaving now on PTS, come on.

You don't have to la weave to do content. It's just going to always provide an advantage if you do.

Right. So you're going to do portals in Nahviintaas HM without LA weaving. And you'll clear that content. Stream that please, I'll stock up on popcorn.

Mr_Walker

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

Yeah for a six year old game they sure make a lot of extreme changes every patch. I’d ask the question why is it necessary to overhaul combat?

It keeps people chasing the meta.

Coppes

Rikumaru wrote: »

pma_pacifier wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

MagSorc No Pet

Did a parse with LA weaving on PTS (90 LA/s) - Breton + Parse food + raid dummy - 12% (Old parses are in range of 20+) of total damage on LA's and never went under 75% of mana.

Did a parse with 0 LA or Heavy attacks - Breton + Parse food + raid dummy - Went entirely out of resources before parse finished and did lower damage.

Yes you will have to LA. I don't know why people are freaking out.

Stam that use Rele at all will Still LA. etc. Go test on PTS

WAT? I need to LA????? shouldn't the change make it so that I don't need to do such stuff?

"While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb. Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options."

I should not have to rely on LA weaving now on PTS, come on.

You don't have to la weave to do content. It's just going to always provide an advantage if you do.

Yeah, okay. Next you’ll tell us that Sword and Shield DPS is competitive in endgame.

siddique

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

pma_pacifier wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

MagSorc No Pet

Did a parse with LA weaving on PTS (90 LA/s) - Breton + Parse food + raid dummy - 12% (Old parses are in range of 20+) of total damage on LA's and never went under 75% of mana.

Did a parse with 0 LA or Heavy attacks - Breton + Parse food + raid dummy - Went entirely out of resources before parse finished and did lower damage.

Yes you will have to LA. I don't know why people are freaking out.

Stam that use Rele at all will Still LA. etc. Go test on PTS

WAT? I need to LA????? shouldn't the change make it so that I don't need to do such stuff?

"While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb. Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options."

I should not have to rely on LA weaving now on PTS, come on.

You don't have to la weave to do content. It's just going to always provide an advantage if you do.

Right. So you're going to do portals in Nahviintaas HM without LA weaving. And you'll clear that content. Stream that please, I'll stock up on popcorn.

This is a wonderful idea. Have the developers live stream nahvi hm on pts live.

Royaji

siddique wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

pma_pacifier wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

MagSorc No Pet

Did a parse with LA weaving on PTS (90 LA/s) - Breton + Parse food + raid dummy - 12% (Old parses are in range of 20+) of total damage on LA's and never went under 75% of mana.

Did a parse with 0 LA or Heavy attacks - Breton + Parse food + raid dummy - Went entirely out of resources before parse finished and did lower damage.

Yes you will have to LA. I don't know why people are freaking out.

Stam that use Rele at all will Still LA. etc. Go test on PTS

WAT? I need to LA????? shouldn't the change make it so that I don't need to do such stuff?

"While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb. Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options."

I should not have to rely on LA weaving now on PTS, come on.

You don't have to la weave to do content. It's just going to always provide an advantage if you do.

Right. So you're going to do portals in Nahviintaas HM without LA weaving. And you'll clear that content. Stream that please, I'll stock up on popcorn.

This is a wonderful idea. Have the developers live stream nahvi hm on pts live.

I doubt there is an internal team in ZOS which can clear this (without turning godmode on) even with LA weaving and minimal ping on the dev server...

ZarkingFrued

NoodleESO wrote: »

As someone who defended Zos on their current silence I take it all back this is the biggest slap in the face you can give us. During these tough times people want security and consistency and now they are taking about flipping the whole game on its head for the millionth time. I am extremely upset with the changes to light attack and im sitting here on the verge of tears because I know I will lose the remaining of my friends list if the change goes through.

This is garbage, this doesn't improve the game at all. There NEEDS to be a skill gap, it's what pushes players to be competitive but these new changes to LA are dumbing the game down too much.

Its starting to feel like Zos isn't being honest with their stance on animation canceling and they word things so they can keep stringing us along

Yup if I play next patch I will be playing even more alone. I found a buddy 3-4 months ago who was good at ESO and we pvped together for a while. Had some laughs, worked together to find our best duo class choices and duo combo capabilities with the classes we played. Then one day he quits citing bad performance, and constant flip flops of the game mechanics. Coming to realize the guys I played with years ago are gone forever from ESO and any good players I find now have a very limited attention span for this game.

Austinseph1

I'm seriously tired of the completely unnecessary changes. Fix what is still broken and improve on what is already there, put down the sledgehammer nobody asked for.

ricklaverd

That meens ppl who are average will still be average. ppl who are above average will become average and ppl who suck will quit the game .

ricklaverd

NoodleESO wrote: »

As someone who defended Zos on their current silence I take it all back this is the biggest slap in the face you can give us. During these tough times people want security and consistency and now they are taking about flipping the whole game on its head for the millionth time. I am extremely upset with the changes to light attack and im sitting here on the verge of tears because I know I will lose the remaining of my friends list if the change goes through.

This is garbage, this doesn't improve the game at all. There NEEDS to be a skill gap, it's what pushes players to be competitive but these new changes to LA are dumbing the game down too much.

Its starting to feel like Zos isn't being honest with their stance on animation canceling and they word things so they can keep stringing us along

Ive nvr been so triggered noodle

Digiman

NoodleESO wrote: »

As someone who defended Zos on their current silence I take it all back this is the biggest slap in the face you can give us. During these tough times people want security and consistency and now they are taking about flipping the whole game on its head for the millionth time. I am extremely upset with the changes to light attack and im sitting here on the verge of tears because I know I will lose the remaining of my friends list if the change goes through.

This is garbage, this doesn't improve the game at all. There NEEDS to be a skill gap, it's what pushes players to be competitive but these new changes to LA are dumbing the game down too much.

Its starting to feel like Zos isn't being honest with their stance on animation canceling and they word things so they can keep stringing us along

THERE IS NO SKILL! Just people either using macros or advanced keyboards to jam so much ability damage in a single weave with a parse.

Honest to god, the combat has become such a joke and I am sick of macro warriors saying they are gods when they cookie cut a rotation from youtube.

This game isn't reactionary as it was before, it overload the other before he can overload you! GET OVER YOURSELF!

Thevampirenight

Basically its an obvious more technical term they use for animation canceling/lightweaving and those that don't animation cancel or cancel as good. From the patch notes
Players with high Actions Per Minute (APM) significantly outperform those with low APM, as they have better up-time of abilities, higher mitigation, much higher DPS, and can simply move around the battlefield better in both PVE and PVP.

So High Apm is fast past combat using animation canceling and low apm would likely be those that don't animation cancel. So like Dps is Damage per second, they use their own term for their combat play and call it Apm, Actions Per Minute. So there is high apm and low apm play styles.

Digiman

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Basically its an obvious more technical term they use for animation canceling/lightweaving and those that don't animation cancel or cancel as good. From the patch notes
Players with high Actions Per Minute (APM) significantly outperform those with low APM, as they have better up-time of abilities, higher mitigation, much higher DPS, and can simply move around the battlefield better in both PVE and PVP.

So High Apm is fast past combat using animation canceling and low apm would likely be those that don't animation cancel. So like Dps is Damage per second, they use their own term for their combat play and call it Apm, Actions Per Minute. So there is high apm and low apm play styles.

Yup, its rediculous atm, since this game penalizes you for not animation cancelling. My only complaint is they call it skill, its not skill when everyone can bloody do it from youtube.

Thevampirenight

zDan wrote: »

I am more-so extremely pissed off with the way they acknowledged the skill gap and saying it's too high. It's not. Learn the damn game like all of the veteran players have done and go through the experience of improving whether it be PvE or PvP. This has really cemented what ZOS is trying to do with their game in catering to casuals, we all knew it was slowly becoming a thing, but this just confirms it. Veteran players get nothing in return and are consistently having to change up playstyles in ever-changing metas. Really disappointed in what they have said here.

Its an mmo and thus it keeps people invested into making new metas and being engaged in the content they put out. Its a common Mmo/Mmorpg Trend that even Zenimax uses. So if people are using this one meta above all others of course its going to get nerfed. If to many are using this over many other options they take that personally because they made all those other options and want players to use them. Also they want players to grab the new latest thing and that is a business angle that is how they make their money so why complain about it? They are only going to keep doing it because that is the Mmo Way and it helps prevent stagnancy. If people didn't seek out or tell players their metas they wouldn't get nerfed like they do.

Thevampirenight

Digiman wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Basically its an obvious more technical term they use for animation canceling/lightweaving and those that don't animation cancel or cancel as good. From the patch notes
Players with high Actions Per Minute (APM) significantly outperform those with low APM, as they have better up-time of abilities, higher mitigation, much higher DPS, and can simply move around the battlefield better in both PVE and PVP.

So High Apm is fast past combat using animation canceling and low apm would likely be those that don't animation cancel. So like Dps is Damage per second, they use their own term for their combat play and call it Apm, Actions Per Minute. So there is high apm and low apm play styles.

Yup, its rediculous atm, since this game penalizes you for not animation cancelling. My only complaint is they call it skill, its not skill when everyone can bloody do it from youtube.

Well they do consider it to be a feature or an unintended one and clearly they don't want to remove it as some skills have been designed around it for the new classes like the Necromancer. So they want players to have options and well not feel as if they have to animation cancel to be a good player. But clearly they do want to keep animation canceling as well as reward that type of play style. Yes they nerfed light attacks however its still the superior option and likely always will be. Its just the more slower apm players will have more options with these changes and maybe get players to mix in both styles of combat in their builds.

idk

NoodleESO wrote: »

There NEEDS to be a skill gap,

There has always been a skill gap in ESO. Before Morrowind, when Zos buffed LAs and nerfed HAs there was a skill gap. After Morrowind, the same players that had long been top players remained top players and the skill gap widened, significantly.

Heck, even in slower combat games like WoW and FF14 there is a skill gap.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing about this change. Merely pointing out part of OP's basis for this thread inaccurate.

JamieAubrey

Devs way of saying "macros"

Dusk_Coven

Maybe it's people who stand around tap-clicking block as fast as they possibly can, for "reasons"
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/514544/game-breaking-issue-spamming-block-can-now-disconnect-you-from-the-server

xXMeowMeowXx

zDan wrote: »

I am more-so extremely pissed off with the way they acknowledged the skill gap and saying it's too high. It's not. Learn the damn game like all of the veteran players have done and go through the experience of improving whether it be PvE or PvP. This has really cemented what ZOS is trying to do with their game in catering to casuals, we all knew it was slowly becoming a thing, but this just confirms it. Veteran players get nothing in return and are consistently having to change up playstyles in ever-changing metas. Really disappointed in what they have said here.

Yh true ^

I usually try to take a kind stance but this direction ZoS is currently following, is truly a middle finger to players that put the time in.

Why would ZOS punish people for getting better at their game - money

What is truly sad is that pushing yourself to be better at this game, is part of the experience that made it so wonderful. It was a challenge that kept many engaged. You developed muscle memory and learned, gaining experience over time, as one should.

A very good PvPer and a friend, called this when they stopped the CP increase and his words now ring true. I started losing more faith when cast times were added to ultis but it was just another adapt and move on.

Maybe ZOS should finally adapt their game plan and stop these radical changes. It is time they show some faith in their product and the players that have been supporting it for years. Making the game anymore casual is just going to suck the fun out of it....and performance shouldn’t come at the cost of that.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert

Please listen to the feedback on the PTS and reconsider this radical change with performance currently as it is. Thanks