Questioning the choice of the third branch of the Warden

Khatou

Now I'm still wondering why the ice was chosen for the third branch of the warden.

The first branch is oriented on animals, there ok, the second one on mushrooms/plants/browses, there again, ok, I understand, but why this idea of Ice on this class? why not start with an idea of "brambles" style?
I'm asking myself this question, because I have one that will be running around in my head all the time, namely; will this choice prevent any possibility of having a class oriented Ice/cold/air (first idea for 3 branches )in the same direction as the DK for fire and earth? this idea saddens me greatly personally, because I dream of a class of this type in TESO.

After all, the problem may be my limited knowledge of this class in the elder scrolls universe, but here I still have this class in mind.

Wandering_Immigrant

But wardens are sort of the icey antithesis to dragonknight already, are they not?

They are similar mechanically, both being somewhat naturally tanky, but capable of dishing out damage when built for it. They both have an earthy secondary identity, dragonknight's being stone warden's being plant-life. And they both have a third source of power they draw from, dragonknight's being poison warden's being animal companionship.

Lore wise I couldn't tell you, I'm pretty sure their origins are in tribes from the Skyrim area, the reachman maybe? Not really sure.

dem0n1k

Folks wanted Ice based magicka users. *shrug*

Sylvermynx

dem0n1k wrote: »

Folks wanted Ice based magicka users. *shrug*

Yes. But that's not exactly what we have....

Vaoh

Because we didn’t have an “Ice” class yet. That’s the only reason at all.

In terms of elements, Earth would have made a lot more sense for a class like this. To be fair though I do think Winter’s Embrace could’ve turned out nicely if it was designed better... aka not for tanking.

Ideally a Warden would’ve been:
• Animal Companions - Animals for all roles, damage, healing, tanking, and can tame animal-based enemies to aid you.
• Green Balance - Healing skills, support/buff skills
• Nature’s Wrath - DPS skills, using roots/green magic to deal damage, poison, maybe even use the earth to your advantage

Imo at least that is what a Warden is about.

Instead of making a class themed around Cold sorts of magic, they gave the Warden a skill tree for it and that’s what we’ve got.

idk

That third branch heavily favors tanking and when you take in the frost staff is for tanking it makes more sense.

Sylvermynx wrote: »

dem0n1k wrote: »

Folks wanted Ice based magicka users. *shrug*

Yes. But that's not exactly what we have....

Zos did retrofit the frost staff into a tanking weapon and this Warden skill line compliments it. Granted, the frost staff is not an ideal tanking design but it still works and is likely the reason we have this frost based skill line.

We can probably guess at various reasons why. In the end, it will not change anything.

Tigerseye

Yeah, it's very odd.

If some people also wanted an Ice Mage, they should have got one separately, rather than lumping them both together and making the ice mage part the tank...

They could solve the problem by giving the option of reskinning the skills.

Olauron

Not sure why would you need a class when you have a sub-class. I have rather competent ice mage with ice warden skill line and destrostaff skill line. Animals and green not used and not leveled.

FierceSam

First two skill lines make sense for the class

The 3rd one was just a bunch of things ‘fans’ kept begging for and got retrieved from a drawer somewhere.

It’s what happens when you run out of time, inspiration or both.

Ice as a concept doesn’t fit in with either the ‘power fantasy’ of a Warden or the nature of Morrowwind. Wardens aren’t Ice Mages in the way that DKs are Flame Warriors.

Coppes

Sorcerers have one line that dedicated to lightning as well but people associate them with lightning.

Summoning pets and doing Dark Magic have no relation to Lightning.

Dragonknights have Fire and Earth. Sorcerers have Lightning. Ice was the only element not represented.

caperb

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Dragonknights have Fire and Earth. Sorcerers have Lightning. Ice was the only element not represented.

^This

If you look at the previous TES games this were the three main elements which were used in the school of destruction. Elements like water magic or earth magic, common in a lot of fantasy titles, don't really exist in TES. Well, there are moments when these elements are used, but they are not a part destruction magic. Maybe the school of alteration comes closest to earth magic, but that's it.

Scion_of_Yggdrasil

I like Winters Embrace, but not gonna lie.... wish Wardens had an offensive nature/plant magic skill line.

MEBengalsFan2001

caperb wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Dragonknights have Fire and Earth. Sorcerers have Lightning. Ice was the only element not represented.

^This

If you look at the previous TES games this were the three main elements which were used in the school of destruction. Elements like water magic or earth magic, common in a lot of fantasy titles, don't really exist in TES. Well, there are moments when these elements are used, but they are not a part destruction magic. Maybe the school of alteration comes closest to earth magic, but that's it.

This would be a great add if the frost staff was a dd staff and one could use to max out their frost damage as a warden. That isn't the case and the frost staff being made as a tanking staff was a novel idea but failed in so many ways.

As for the warden having Ice magic it sorta works but having them with Earth Magika would be better IMO. As for the DragonKnight - having them get the Ice could work as Dragons do use more than fire in games they use fire, ice, lighting, etc...

I wish the devs would update the warden and dragon knight and simply modify the animation and names of the abilities and ta-da. Wardens would feel more like a nature type character and a DK would be more elemental similar to how most dragons are in a fantasy game.

Olauron

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I wish the devs would update the warden and dragon knight and simply modify the animation and names of the abilities and ta-da. Wardens would feel more like a nature type character and a DK would be more elemental similar to how most dragons are in a fantasy game.

That would thematically ruin a lot of existing characters, especially keeping in mind that there are no class change tokens.

caperb

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

caperb wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Dragonknights have Fire and Earth. Sorcerers have Lightning. Ice was the only element not represented.

^This

If you look at the previous TES games this were the three main elements which were used in the school of destruction. Elements like water magic or earth magic, common in a lot of fantasy titles, don't really exist in TES. Well, there are moments when these elements are used, but they are not a part destruction magic. Maybe the school of alteration comes closest to earth magic, but that's it.

This would be a great add if the frost staff was a dd staff and one could use to max out their frost damage as a warden. That isn't the case and the frost staff being made as a tanking staff was a novel idea but failed in so many ways.

As for the warden having Ice magic it sorta works but having them with Earth Magika would be better IMO. As for the DragonKnight - having them get the Ice could work as Dragons do use more than fire in games they use fire, ice, lighting, etc...

I wish the devs would update the warden and dragon knight and simply modify the animation and names of the abilities and ta-da. Wardens would feel more like a nature type character and a DK would be more elemental similar to how most dragons are in a fantasy game.

That would defenitely make more sense yes. Or just scrap the ice from warden and give it to a possible new class, so we still would have a different class for lightning, fire and ice.

worrallj

Khatou wrote: »

Now I'm still wondering why the ice was chosen for the third branch of the warden.

The first branch is oriented on animals, there ok, the second one on mushrooms/plants/browses, there again, ok, I understand, but why this idea of Ice on this class? why not start with an idea of "brambles" style?
I'm asking myself this question, because I have one that will be running around in my head all the time, namely; will this choice prevent any possibility of having a class oriented Ice/cold/air (first idea for 3 branches )in the same direction as the DK for fire and earth? this idea saddens me greatly personally, because I dream of a class of this type in TESO.

After all, the problem may be my limited knowledge of this class in the elder scrolls universe, but here I still have this class in mind.

On the one hand I applaud them for trying something different but....

I agree- I leveled a warden argonian and loved it, until I realized the ice tree wasn't exactly optional if you wanted to be viable in any endgame content. The clash between ice and green kinda messed up RP opportunity with this class unless you restrict your skill choices pretty dramatically.

But no way can they do the kind of overhaul your talking about. I think at this stage they're more likely to come out with "custom class" where you just pick any three class skill lines you want. But that too is extremely unlikely.

tsaescishoeshiner

Ice as a Warden specialty has always made sense to me. The class is about communing with nature, its harsh realities, and survivalism, and blizzards and cold are part of earth magic. Other mmo's have druids with only nature skills, but in older RPG's, those nature skills include elemental magic. I do wish it was more of a DPS line, though ... hashtag buff Arctic Wind

While I like "druids" in other series, I'm happy that there's something more original here. Now if only we had different Warden pet skins >_>

MEBengalsFan2001

caperb wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

caperb wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

Dragonknights have Fire and Earth. Sorcerers have Lightning. Ice was the only element not represented.

^This

If you look at the previous TES games this were the three main elements which were used in the school of destruction. Elements like water magic or earth magic, common in a lot of fantasy titles, don't really exist in TES. Well, there are moments when these elements are used, but they are not a part destruction magic. Maybe the school of alteration comes closest to earth magic, but that's it.

This would be a great add if the frost staff was a dd staff and one could use to max out their frost damage as a warden. That isn't the case and the frost staff being made as a tanking staff was a novel idea but failed in so many ways.

As for the warden having Ice magic it sorta works but having them with Earth Magika would be better IMO. As for the DragonKnight - having them get the Ice could work as Dragons do use more than fire in games they use fire, ice, lighting, etc...

I wish the devs would update the warden and dragon knight and simply modify the animation and names of the abilities and ta-da. Wardens would feel more like a nature type character and a DK would be more elemental similar to how most dragons are in a fantasy game.

That would defenitely make more sense yes. Or just scrap the ice from warden and give it to a possible new class, so we still would have a different class for lightning, fire and ice.

I would call it Birch/Maple/Oak etc skill line to be a tree themed. Than I would adjust the abilities to have name of trees.

Frost Shield would become Solid Oak with new animation but same usage.
Reaching Branch - A group pull type ability
Falling Leaves - Magika DD ability that when morphs does a stun or more damage.

Than Frost damage from abilities should be moved to Necro as dead is cold and that would make more sense IMO as I don't expect a new class any time soon.

Khatou

Vaoh wrote: »

Because we didn’t have an “Ice” class yet. That’s the only reason at all.

In terms of elements, Earth would have made a lot more sense for a class like this. To be fair though I do think Winter’s Embrace could’ve turned out nicely if it was designed better... aka not for tanking.

Ideally a Warden would’ve been:
• Animal Companions - Animals for all roles, damage, healing, tanking, and can tame animal-based enemies to aid you.
• Green Balance - Healing skills, support/buff skills
• Nature’s Wrath - DPS skills, using roots/green magic to deal damage, poison, maybe even use the earth to your advantage

Imo at least that is what a Warden is about.

Instead of making a class themed around Cold sorts of magic, they gave the Warden a skill tree for it and that’s what we’ve got.

Good idea for the land, after I confess I had not thought about it, because the land seemed to me strangely consistent with this class. From my point of view, the "bramble" aspect could have been a good match if the devs were looking for a slowing down effect on the ice.

Because as you can see on a spell, brambles are winding up on us, so the idea of "bramble" aspects tanking/ slowing down could very well have been imagined.

Moreover a class planned for cold/ice would have finally made one of the Nordic's passive much more credible.

Olauron wrote: »

Not sure why would you need a class when you have a sub-class. I have rather competent ice mage with ice warden skill line and destrostaff skill line. Animals and green not used and not leveled.

and why not? Why should some people get one thing and not the others? I mean, we're on an MMORPG, right?

the problem with this idea that I had also considered is that we're losing way too much liabilities from other branches or liabilities from other branches that could have been aligned with this type of ice-oriented class game.

kaisernick

Honestly i just wish the morphs for ice were one for tanking and one for dps so you could have a actual viable ice mage.

Vaoh

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Ice as a Warden specialty has always made sense to me. The class is about communing with nature, its harsh realities, and survivalism, and blizzards and cold are part of earth magic. Other mmo's have druids with only nature skills, but in older RPG's, those nature skills include elemental magic. I do wish it was more of a DPS line, though ... hashtag buff Arctic Wind

While I like "druids" in other series, I'm happy that there's something more original here. Now if only we had different Warden pet skins >_>

Yes but that is a loose connection.....

There is ice in nature. There is also Fire, Lightning, Air, Earth, you could use a particularly sneaky creature to come up with a stealth skill, etc. Basically it is easy to sell the idea of almost any element or skill line being “nature-related”.

Warden only seems Ice-related because their color scheme is Blue/Teal/Green, corresponding to Ice/Animals/Green magic.

If there was Earth, it most likely would be Teal/Green/Yellow, or instead multiple shades of green+Green/Yellow. Truthfully a Warden is about Animals and Nature. Nature includes trees, green magic, roots, leaves.... earth. Earth magic.

Anyway it’s not horrible that Wardens got ice magic. It’s just sad that it’s designed poorly - it took away from the nature potential of the class and ruined the chance at a future class being a much better ice mage.

Khatou

hold an idea for aggro with plants for example a plant that grows from the ground, for example, like the famous species of painful plant that aggro us and that could aggro either all in a zone (zone has targeted ) or then the single boss/target, it could have been fun also an idea of this kind.

RaddlemanNumber7

I guess you must all be city folks, or live in the tropics, or something. Where I come from icy Winter is just as much a part of the natural cycle as florid Spring, verdant Summer and fungal Fall.

Tryxus

If I were a protector of the forests of Tamriel and I had to pick 1 element out of 3 (Fire, Lightning and Ice), then I would pick Ice over the other 2 any day.

No chance of causing a forest fire unlike the fire element, more precise and less volatile than lightning, able to douse fires and prevent further damage, any residual ice left after a battle turns to water and nourishes the green, etc etc ...

Seems like the best choice

Plus it's poetic as well: life and growth in 1 skill tree (Green Balance), death and cold in another (Winter's Embrace). That represents Balance, which all guardians of nature try to uphold.

Tigerseye

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

I guess you must all be city folks, or live in the tropics, or something. Where I come from icy Winter is just as much a part of the natural cycle as florid Spring, verdant Summer and fungal Fall.

Well, no, because Winter's Embrace (ice) is an elemental thing; not a nature thing, specifically.

It's not like the other lines are Summer's Heat (sun), Spring's Kiss (rain), or Autumn's Mellowness (mists), or something.

They aren't season, or element, related.

Yes, seasons and elements affect the natural world, of course, but they are not the natural world itself, like plants and animals are and the ice clashes with the more eternally spring/summer theme of the plants and flowers.

Ice doesn't normally occur at the same time as summer flowers, does it?

That is why the two lines clash.

They should have used natural and seasonally neutral things, like tree bark and vines, to demonstate tougher things, for tanking.

...and they shouldn't have gone with a Vvardenfell theme, either.

It's too specific, niche and again, seems to not match the Warden very well.

They should have gone with a more foresty, Bosmer, Grahtwood, or Greenshade, theme.

Seeing as Bosmer are associated with bows and a Bosmer is shown in the Warden class pic.

Then they should have sold (and still should sell) skins to update it to other areas, by making the skins more like the Summerset, Murkmire, or Elsweyr plants, trees and animals.

Sticking ice in the mix did not only clash with the other lines, it also meant the people looking for a classic Ice Mage were left disappointed, as the ice part is only really for tanking/defence.

Not that people demanding an Ice Mage should have been listened to, anyway, while the class being discussed was Warden.

The two have nothing in common, so why did ZOS listen to them?

...and by the way, I live in (or very near) countryside, in the UK, so I'm not in the city and I am definitely not in the tropics.

Khatou

Tigerseye wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

I guess you must all be city folks, or live in the tropics, or something. Where I come from icy Winter is just as much a part of the natural cycle as florid Spring, verdant Summer and fungal Fall.

Well, no, because Winter's Embrace (ice) is an elemental thing; not a nature thing, specifically.

It's not like the other lines are Summer's Heat (sun), Spring's Kiss (rain), or Autumn's Mellowness (mists), or something.

They aren't season, or element, related.

Yes, seasons and elements affect the natural world, of course, but they are not the natural world itself, like plants and animals are and the ice clashes with the more eternally spring/summer theme of the plants and flowers.

Ice doesn't normally occur at the same time as summer flowers, does it?

That is why the two lines clash.

They should have used natural and seasonally neutral things, like tree bark and vines, to demonstate tougher things, for tanking.

...and they shouldn't have gone with a Vvardenfell theme, either.

It's too specific, niche and again, seems to not match the Warden very well.

They should have gone with a more foresty, Bosmer, Grahtwood, or Greenshade, theme.

Seeing as Bosmer are associated with bows and a Bosmer is shown in the Warden class pic.

Then they should have sold (and still should sell) skins to update it to other areas, by making the skins more like the Summerset, Murkmire, or Elsweyr plants, trees and animals.

Sticking ice in the mix did not only clash with the other lines, it also meant the people looking for a classic Ice Mage were left disappointed, as the ice part is only really for tanking/defence.

Not that people demanding an Ice Mage should have been listened to, anyway, while the class being discussed was Warden.

The two have nothing in common, so why did ZOS listen to them?

...and by the way, I live in (or very near) countryside, in the UK, so I'm not in the city and I am definitely not in the tropics.

it's not wrong what you say about Vvardenfell and the relationship with the theme of the class especially when we start with Naryu I don't know if we see it more than that after we haven't done the content yet (but I intend to correct that ) I agree that the Warden should have arrived with an extension more related to nature although in the context another class can be related to it: the Bard.

Tigerseye

Olauron wrote: »

Not sure why would you need a class when you have a sub-class. I have rather competent ice mage with ice warden skill line and destrostaff skill line. Animals and green not used and not leveled.

Because the two things clash.

It's bizarre to stick two totally different classes into one lump, name it after only one of them and call it a day.

It's bad design.

You should have your own Ice Mage class, with 3 skill lines, all appropriate to that class.

Not have to make do with a one skill line-only "Ice Mage" that is still named "Warden".

bearbelly

Most of my Wardens are Nords; the ice theme fits.

Tigerseye

I mean, what next?

A "Warrior" type class, with a Bard skill line that totally clashes with the other Warrior type skill lines, but is still just called "Warrior"?

Bizarre.

Olauron

Tigerseye wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Not sure why would you need a class when you have a sub-class. I have rather competent ice mage with ice warden skill line and destrostaff skill line. Animals and green not used and not leveled.

Because the two things clash.

It's bizarre to stick two totally different classes into one lump, name it after only one of them and call it a day.

It's bad design.

You should have your own Ice Mage class, with 3 skill lines, all appropriate to that class.

Not have to make do with a one skill line-only "Ice Mage" that is still named "Warden".

This ship has sailed what, three years ago? Changing warden now is like changing sorcerer (why does he have lightning? give us proper storm mage) or dragon knight (why does he have earth? give us proper geomancer or tamrielmancer). I already fixed this problem by having pure lightning mage as a sorcerer without other 2 skill lines, pure ice mage as a warden without other 2 skill lines. I tried that with dragon knight but I don't like his different damage types.

Everest_Lionheart

I’m new to the game myself and chose a Khajiit warden as my first character. Lore aside (it’s also my first Elder Scrolls game) I am still working out how to put all the pieces together to come up with my own build. For the moment I am basically a solo player learning the game while playing my way through the different quest lines including Thieves and Brotherhood.

I’ve probably spent an equal amount of hours between reading guides and playing the game at this point. This also being my first mmorpg I have a lot to learn. Anyway some observations as a relative noob:

I picked the class because it seems the most balanced. Not the best at anything but fairly decent at everything. A jack of all trades, kind of like me IRL and seems a decent character for learning the ropes. I’m using the bear for my ultimate which seems kind of easy mode to me and thinking about changing my ultimate skill on the future.

So I’ve slotted my 2 bars roughly the same. (Xbox1) So my buttons on each bar correspond to similar skills depending on whether I am using sword and board or destruction staff as a weapon. I find I still consume more stamina than magicka no matter which bar I’m on. Anyway I’ve got 3 skills (4 if you count my ultimate that are static) LA, cutting dive and enchanted growth. S&B bar gets pierce armor, soul trap and gripping shards. Destruction staff gets fetcher infection, crushing shock and destructive clench. So basically a close up fighting setup and a ranged setup.

So getting to the original topic here I can’t find much use for ice magic. It’s it because my 2 bars lack diversity because I keep a “safe” setup? I’m looking for reasons to use more but from range I’m virtually untouchable even against some of the stronger bosses just by using basic LA weaving and timely dodging. It’s only up close where I make my errors, usually a missed block is my demise. The question here would adding more skills from the winters embrace skill line really help all that much? I’m theory it all looks pretty solid for group play but for solo play I just can’t see how it fits in.