What about skill lines based on classes?
Saelent
✭✭✭✭✭
Skill lines with skills based on classes, so you could start with a Templar who can do some minion raising skills, or a Dragon Knight with some Warden style healing.
I’m not saying the exact same skills as the full class, that would make it useless for a class to get their own class skill line.
The idea would be for these skill lines to have abilities that would be ‘extra’- more minion raising for Necromancer or narrowing of stealth radius as a passives among other things for Nightblades.
Things that can’t fit into the main class skill lines but would be useful for everyone.
Thoughts?
I’m not saying the exact same skills as the full class, that would make it useless for a class to get their own class skill line.
The idea would be for these skill lines to have abilities that would be ‘extra’- more minion raising for Necromancer or narrowing of stealth radius as a passives among other things for Nightblades.
Things that can’t fit into the main class skill lines but would be useful for everyone.
Thoughts?
2
-
SeaGtGruff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Aren't there already three skill lines specific to each class? Are you asking for a fourth one?
What might be better, in my opinion, would be skill lines based on your chosen group role:
- Magicka DD
- Stamina DD
- Tank
- Healer
You could gain all four, just as you can currently gain all weapons-type skill lines and all armor-type skill lines, but you'd still be better off picking just one to invest SPs in.
They wouldn't even have to contain a lot of active skills-- maybe just one or two active skills, plus several passive skills. But hopefully the skills would help players improve their effectiveness in their chosen group role, by giving all Tanks/Healers/DDs some common role skills regardless of their race, class, weapon type, armor type, etc.I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I see two issues.
1. ZOS seems to have issues with balancing the current class skill lines, constantly walking the line between homogenization, changing the current skills constantly, and risking one or more classes being deemed "useless" for certain roles in group content while other classes dominate. I don't expect adding more class skills to help with that dynamic, especially not if certain classes are duplicating another class' skill, as in your example of a DK with warden style healing.
2. Adding "extra" skills that lean into the distinct playstyles of a class, as in your example of Necromancers getting more minion raising, doesn't really add any diversity to the class. Outside of "I play how I want" builds, everyone will continue to use whatever skills are the most effective.
So I'm not sure I see a reason for ZOS to add more class skills.1 -
Saelent✭✭✭✭✭Well you see some people argue for no classes, or all skills being available for all classes to use, this idea is something of a hybrid. 5 active skills, 5 passives based on extra skills that maybe didn’t make the last rendition of the class.
These skill lines would be available for all classes, all at the same time.0 -
BRCOURTN✭✭✭✭✭It just seems like it would narrow down the meta even more. I think we're lucky to have the class diversity we have now. Many options are open to different playstyles.1 -
barney2525✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Isn't there another thread similar to this one?
Is there going to be an achievement for obtaining the most skills that you will never use?
IMHO
0 -
Malkiv✭✭✭✭✭These kind of posts make me believe that someone doesn't want to level - or pay for access to - a class in order to obtain their identity. Everyone likes to think they have the next great idea to revolutionize gameplay, but most of the time it just further homogenizes gameplay.
The issue with this isn't the skill its self - it's the passives that come from the use of the skill, or directly affect the use of a skill, either as a proc or as a buff.
Besides, classes already have access to nearly every trick any other class can pull off. Need a pull, but aren't a DK? Fighters Guild, Silver Leash. Need a resource synergy, but aren't a Templar? Undaunted, Necrotic Orb. Purges, shields, ranged synergy - it's already there for the taking outside of class skill lines.
It's almost all been accounted for, so that all classes have access to most abilities/buffs while maintaining some class identity.PC-NA | PvP (Gray Host & BGs) | PvE (vTrials & vDGs)4 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well you see some people argue for no classes, or all skills being available for all classes to use, this idea is something of a hybrid. 5 active skills, 5 passives based on extra skills that maybe didn’t make the last rendition of the class.
These skill lines would be available for all classes, all at the same time.
I see the hybrid part, but that's why your suggestion runs into exactly the same problems.
No classes or all skills available to everyone means very little diversity in anything more competitive than "I play how I want" gameplay, such as PVE group content or PVP. The more certain classes can augment their existing toolkit with stuff based from other classes, the more they dominate their niche (like DK tanks getting warden-style group heals).
We already know that many players don't necessarily enjoy feeling pushed into skills that aren't distinct to their class - look at the reliance of stam builds on weapon lines or that update when many players had to rely on guild skill lines.
But extending the currently available class skills and keeping that distinctness makes it harder for ZOS to balance those skills in PVE group content and PVP.
So I'm still not seeing a convincing reason for why more skills should be added when ZOS is still constantly tweaking the ones we have. What benefit do you think it will bring to the game that outweighs the negatives, aside from "some people want this"?1 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
My thoughts in that direction are known: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/492733/class-specialization-idea/p1What about skill lines based on classes?
...and will continue to struggle with that for all eternity. Unless they stop adding any new gear sets, any new mechanics or whatnot... and that would be the death of the game.VaranisArano wrote: »ZOS seems to have issues with balancing the current class skill lines...
Balance is an eternal work in progress. But making balancing changes doesn't sell DLCs/Expansions - new fun stuff to play with however does. And that is why new skills to refit to old characters would make many people happy, as they could enjoy maxing & morphing those in the search of their "prefect character" as they envision it...
A valid point, though one that would depend. As long as there is some -choice- to be made... like making people pick one out of three per class as with my idea (though of course the actual skills for mine are more proof-of-concept); there are several ways one can diversify the choices. I originally had thought of a "stamina suppost - magica support - flavor" spread, but reworked that into a "specialize in one of the classes already existing flavors" since that made more sense for me...VaranisArano wrote: »Adding "extra" skills that lean into the distinct playstyles of a class, as in your example of Necromancers getting more minion raising, doesn't really add any diversity to the class...
It brings the benefit of having something "new" without having to make a new character for it like you had to with Warden or Necromancer at the very least!VaranisArano wrote: »What benefit do you think it will bring to the game that outweighs the negatives, aside from "some people want this"?
And while I agree that "skill lines for everyone" have their own troubles of diluting character variation as everyone and their granny will be told to pick the "most effective" combination of GTFO of the PUG... many of those issues can be avoided by adding some "either-or" mechanic just like with classes. Like... "if you join This guild, you cannot join that guild and vica versa, make your choice!" or locking out some classes from joining some guilds (and boy would I love to see necromancers banned from taking Psijic for fluff reasons... future guilds could have other restrictions... like, if there was a holy order of monster hunters, they might ban vampires and werewolves, or a aedric-following swordmaster guild might ban sorcerors, or a bardic guild might ban dark brotherhood assassins, or a enforcers guild might ban both thieves and murderers, etc.)
But it -would- breathe new life into old and loved if a little stale characters, as people get more options, spend more time diversifying their characters, etc. No matter if class based, or weapon skill lines, or guilds, or something else...1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Having classes is intended to have differences. OP's suggestion is to remove some of that and take a step towards homogenization and eliminating classes. I am not suggesting they are wanting to eliminate classes altogether but that this is a step in that direction.4 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SeaGtGruff wrote: »Aren't there already three skill lines specific to each class? Are you asking for a fourth one?
What might be better, in my opinion, would be skill lines based on your chosen group role:
- Magicka DD
- Stamina DD
- Tank
- HealerYou could gain all four, just as you can currently gain all weapons-type skill lines and all armor-type skill lines, but you'd still be better off picking just one to invest SPs in..
They wouldn't even have to contain a lot of active skills-- maybe just one or two active skills, plus several passive skills. But hopefully the skills would help players improve their effectiveness in their chosen group role, by giving all Tanks/Healers/DDs some common role skills regardless of their race, class, weapon type, armor type, etc
We already have this.
Magicka DD - Destruction staves
Stamina DD - 2H, DW, Bow
Tank - S&B and to a lesser degree Frost staff.
Healer - Resto staff.5 -
Taleof2Cities✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I can’t distinguish this thread from all the other “I want access to all the class skills” whine threads.2 -
Saelent✭✭✭✭✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »I can’t distinguish this thread from all the other “I want access to all the class skills” whine threads.
Cheers for that, here I was trying to come up with a different idea, but you do you.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »I can’t distinguish this thread from all the other “I want access to all the class skills” whine threads.
Cheers for that, here I was trying to come up with a different idea, but you do you.
The idea is not all that different. People have been offering suggestions to get around the class design for years. This very idea has been proposed before and will meet the same fate.2 -
Mettaricana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Skill lines with skills based on classes, so you could start with a Templar who can do some minion raising skills, or a Dragon Knight with some Warden style healing.
I’m not saying the exact same skills as the full class, that would make it useless for a class to get their own class skill line.
The idea would be for these skill lines to have abilities that would be ‘extra’- more minion raising for Necromancer or narrowing of stealth radius as a passives among other things for Nightblades.
Things that can’t fit into the main class skill lines but would be useful for everyone.
Thoughts?
I dont see why not fighters guild basically gave other classes the dragon knights feiry chains.
Wyrd skill line: nature magic, maybe a few trees, a summonable wolf pet etc
Summoner skill line: basically sorc pets but add flame atro and ice atro options
Akaviri arts skill line: at alternate flame whips and maybe a few cool enemy skills
Frost magic skill line: add a few more varieties to ice magic.
Aedric skill line guve some off brand templar spears maybe that holy jump enemies do that leaps into air and smashes down.0 -
Nerouyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Well you see some people argue for no classes, or all skills being available for all classes to use, this idea is something of a hybrid.
This is one of those situations where any hybrid is going to be a mongrel so ugly that no-one can love it.
eg. the current game.
They crammed classes into an IP which is renowned for total freedom of character development.
On top of those they added a smattering of non-class skills.
Except having crammed players into classes with specific themes, many of those non-class skills jarr, eg. undaunted necromancy with templar or warden.
Your idea might technically offer more freedom - which this game desperately needs - but nowhere enough and not necessarily for the classes which need it most, eg. warden.
Presently wardens are a third of a class. Most of their abilities are gimmicky garbage you'll never use if you don't pvp.
What would they get from this? There aren't any more nature themed abilities.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well you see some people argue for no classes, or all skills being available for all classes to use, this idea is something of a hybrid.
This is one of those situations where any hybrid is going to be a mongrel so ugly that no-one can love it.
eg. the current game.
They crammed classes into an IP which is renowned for total freedom of character development.
On top of those they added a smattering of non-class skills.
Actually, the built an MMORPG in a TES world. That is why there are classes. Plain and simple as this not a stand-alone single-player game.
It also has more choice in character development than any major MMORPG. The closest design of the current majors is FF14 but even then you are restricted by what job you take.1 -
Saelent✭✭✭✭✭Well you see some people argue for no classes, or all skills being available for all classes to use, this idea is something of a hybrid.
This is one of those situations where any hybrid is going to be a mongrel so ugly that no-one can love it.
eg. the current game.
They crammed classes into an IP which is renowned for total freedom of character development.
On top of those they added a smattering of non-class skills.
Actually, the built an MMORPG in a TES world. That is why there are classes. Plain and simple as this not a stand-alone single-player game.
It also has more choice in character development than any major MMORPG. The closest design of the current majors is FF14 but even then you are restricted by what job you take.
There are MMORPGs which managed to set aside classes and give everyone everything.
I personally would love a classless system...but that can never happen...sooo...the result is repeated ideas for something else, as someone pointed out.0 -
Nerouyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Actually, the built an MMORPG in a TES world. That is why there are classes. Plain and simple as this not a stand-alone single-player game.
You assert that an MMO must have classes?
ROFL
Eve
Ultimate Online
Final Fantasy XIV - has classes, but players can level and play them all on a single character
Secret World
Ryzom
Champions Online
Darkfall
and probably many more.
Many would argue that Star Trek Online's space combat is almost classless.It also has more choice in character development than any major MMORPG.
Far and away the least amount of choice of any MMO I've ever played. Which is quite a lot now after some twenty odd years of playing them.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Actually, the built an MMORPG in a TES world. That is why there are classes. Plain and simple as this not a stand-alone single-player game.
You assert that an MMO must have classes?
ROFL
Eve
Ultimate Online
Final Fantasy XIV - has classes, but players can level and play them all on a single character
Secret World
Ryzom
Champions Online
Darkfall
and probably many more.
Many would argue that Star Trek Online's space combat is almost classless.It also has more choice in character development than any major MMORPG.
Far and away the least amount of choice of any MMO I've ever played. Which is quite a lot now after some twenty odd years of playing them.
LMAO. I love how you edited out my comment about FF14. More on that below.
Eve is a very different type of game. That should be painfully obvious to anyone remotely familiar with it. Some of the games you list are a joke. None of the currently actively maintained MMORPGs listed are in the same category of WoW/FF14/ESO. Some were at one point.
Also, you are actually wrong about FF14. It has classes. They just call them jobs. You must learn a job and are restricted to what skills are available when in that job and what gear you can wear. They merely change classes to a job that is more restrictive than ESO classes.Edited by idk on March 22, 2020 10:09PM3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well you see some people argue for no classes, or all skills being available for all classes to use, this idea is something of a hybrid.
This is one of those situations where any hybrid is going to be a mongrel so ugly that no-one can love it.
eg. the current game.
They crammed classes into an IP which is renowned for total freedom of character development.
On top of those they added a smattering of non-class skills.
Actually, the built an MMORPG in a TES world. That is why there are classes. Plain and simple as this not a stand-alone single-player game.
It also has more choice in character development than any major MMORPG. The closest design of the current majors is FF14 but even then you are restricted by what job you take.
There are MMORPGs which managed to set aside classes and give everyone everything.
I personally would love a classless system...but that can never happen...sooo...the result is repeated ideas for something else, as someone pointed out.
The only game I can recall that is currently a major MMORPG and not F2P that does not have classes like ESO is FF14 as I already mentioned. However, it really still has a class system. They just call it jobs. You are also forced to equip the gear, weapons, skills available for that job so it is actually more restrictive that ESO.1 -
nhisso✭✭✭✭These comments prove it isn't ZoS' fault this game's skill lines are such trash. It's an unthinking player base that can't handle too many options at once. Beyond pathetic.3 -
Saelent✭✭✭✭✭Well you see some people argue for no classes, or all skills being available for all classes to use, this idea is something of a hybrid.
This is one of those situations where any hybrid is going to be a mongrel so ugly that no-one can love it.
eg. the current game.
They crammed classes into an IP which is renowned for total freedom of character development.
On top of those they added a smattering of non-class skills.
Actually, the built an MMORPG in a TES world. That is why there are classes. Plain and simple as this not a stand-alone single-player game.
It also has more choice in character development than any major MMORPG. The closest design of the current majors is FF14 but even then you are restricted by what job you take.
There are MMORPGs which managed to set aside classes and give everyone everything.
I personally would love a classless system...but that can never happen...sooo...the result is repeated ideas for something else, as someone pointed out.
The only game I can recall that is currently a major MMORPG and not F2P that does not have classes like ESO is FF14 as I already mentioned. However, it really still has a class system. They just call it jobs. You are also forced to equip the gear, weapons, skills available for that job so it is actually more restrictive that ESO.
I’ve never played FF14 and other than the hot guy with the big sword I saw in one of the recent trailers, I’ve never been tempted.
But major MMORPG, I suppose I haven’t seen a classless one, not the fault of the MMO I’m referencing, but it was free to play and buy to get purdy extras...which may have been more powerful, I’m not sure. Anyway it fell through, and didn’t have the blade of woe, or necromancy, so compared to what’s available in ESO, it was pretty meh.These comments prove it isn't ZoS' fault this game's skill lines are such trash. It's an unthinking player base that can't handle too many options at once. Beyond pathetic.
I would love to know your line of thinking on this.
Where from the above do you get anything about being incapable of handling too many options at once?0 -
Nerouyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Also, you are actually wrong about FF14. It has classes.
Am I?
Actually?Final Fantasy XIV - has classes, but players can level and play them all on a single character
ROFLThe only game I can recall that is currently a major MMORPG and not F2P that does not have classes like ESO is FF14 as I already mentioned.
So we've established that you have a memory span of less than 5 minutes. Good to know.
I just listed and you quoted and responded to a list of classless big budget MMOs. Which wasn't even exhaustive.
Defiance was another big one.
And for that matter, Elder Scrolls Online.
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2xpn39/data_mining_spellcrafting_what_is_it_and_what_are/
Their original plans for spellcrafting would have made ESO effectively classless. Even if classes had retained exclusive access to their tiny pool of abilities, with that many non-class options the game would have been so much more like a proper TES game.Edited by Nerouyn on March 23, 2020 12:46AM0 -
Nemesis7884✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭i think either have classes or scrapp them alltogether and only work with skill lines...the second should have been the original idea as it would be more elder scrolls and allow for more flexibility...but we are where we are...1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Also, you are actually wrong about FF14. It has classes.
Am I?
Actually?Final Fantasy XIV - has classes, but players can level and play them all on a single character
ROFLThe only game I can recall that is currently a major MMORPG and not F2P that does not have classes like ESO is FF14 as I already mentioned.
So we've established that you have a memory span of less than 5 minutes. Good to know.
I just listed and you quoted and responded to a list of classless big budget MMOs. Which wasn't even exhaustive.
Defiance was another big one.
And for that matter, Elder Scrolls Online.
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2xpn39/data_mining_spellcrafting_what_is_it_and_what_are/
Their original plans for spellcrafting would have made ESO effectively classless. Even if classes had retained exclusive access to their tiny pool of abilities, with that many non-class options the game would have been so much more like a proper TES game.
You can ROFL all you want but you have twice had to heavily edit my comments about FF14 because they slammed your premise. FF14 has heavily restricted builds for each job. At least we have choices in our class builds. Clearly, something you avoiding while trying to craft your argument. You ROFL is meaningless.
Also, again, none of those games come close to being high enough in the current MMORPG orbit to compare to ESO/WoW/FF14 which is another statement you have conveniently edited out. Some of those games listed are not worthy to have ever been mentioned in the same breath as ESO.
Secret World is a F2P game. Champions Online is cryptic junk. These are not big-budget games and pale in comparison to ESO in pretty much every way, especially with the quality they lack. So ROFL all you want with these games as you price big-budget examples.
Edit: Also, with the ESO we can play any role with any class so the job structure of FF14 is not needed. ESO has more freedom than FF14 provides. Let us stick with actual facts.Edited by idk on March 23, 2020 5:40AM0 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
And they would be wrong.Many would argue that Star Trek Online's space combat is almost classless.
Sure, STO has no "classes" - in name. But it makes a huge difference if you are playing a tactical officer or science officer or engineering officer.
Yeah, the basic combat is dependent on your ship (on on ground missions, your weapons and gear selection); and each can use every type of ship/gear, in that regard STOP and ESO are the same.
BUT!
All the "special skills" come from your STO profession, and they make a big difference - science officers will throw enemy debuffing and holografic fleets into the fight, while engineers will buff their own ships, or come back from near-destruction with miracolous repairs, while tac officers have all those special offensive skills that only their "class" can use...
Ground combat wise this doubles, since its not only the "class skills", but also the limitations in kit selection, tac officers get all the grenades and combat effects, science officers most of the healing and buffing as well as "tech magic" exotic damage stuff, while engineers build turrets, mines and support generators, or some other tech special effects... yeah, recently they added a lot more universal kits for everyone, but still, the game is very much "class" diversified...
What IS true is that there is no "tank-DPS-healer" trinity in STO space combat, as that is dependent entirely on ship setup, which can be selected by the player as they choose. Wanna play "DPS-ish", take out a nimble escort vessel for more firepower to duke it out with the enemies, or a carrier for hanging back and letting your hangars contents do the damage, wanna play tanky, go for a cruiser type with "slow and tough" flavor, or pick a science vessel if you like to throw "space magic" and like nifty looking control effects; and every one of them has a slot for a engineer and science bridge officer to keep the ship repaired (some more then others of course)
Ship. Sailed. Sunk. Long time.Nemesis7884 wrote: »i think either have classes or scrapp them alltogether and only work with skill lines...the second should have been the original idea as it would be more elder scrolls and allow for more flexibility...
Yeah, the "classless" concept can be made to work, even in an MMO setting... but it requires building the setup from the start, and introducing -some- "either-or" mechanic to keep things from homogenizing for super-effectiveness... And that is the main issue of "classless" - that people might come up with a "most effective" setup, and then everyone ends up playing the same META if they wanna stay competetive...
Now, it IS possible to tie that to something else then classes, yes... "Secret World" has been mentioned, where its tied to the weapon and skill setup, and you can learn multiple ones to switch around on your character... but you can -still- only use one setup at a time, and not pick your preferred effects from the whole selection.
And the flashier a skill is, the more need for that "either-or" mechanic to prevent this arises. "Classless ESO" would have looked a lot like the weapon skill lines, before they got their own ultimates... none of the flashy class skills, just a few more magic skill lines like the destruction and restoration ones, and the "either-or" mechanic being what your character holds in their hands...
ZOS made a differnet choice.
So now we have classes, and flashy distinct class skills, and that's that. The system will not go away... so all that we can resonably hope for is that they might expand it somehow to feed our desire for more diversification possibilities. And they do that now and then with adding new guilds... one can hope they might add more in the future, one way or another, be it new guilds, weapon skills, or even class based specializations...0 -
Curious_Death✭✭✭✭✭Skill lines with skills based on classes, so you could start with a Templar who can do some minion raising skills, or a Dragon Knight with some Warden style healing.
I’m not saying the exact same skills as the full class, that would make it useless for a class to get their own class skill line.
The idea would be for these skill lines to have abilities that would be ‘extra’- more minion raising for Necromancer or narrowing of stealth radius as a passives among other things for Nightblades.
Things that can’t fit into the main class skill lines but would be useful for everyone.
Thoughts?
And pepperoni pizza with ice cream sauce yes - same logic! then add salt to sprite... mmmmm delicious idea!0 -
Saelent✭✭✭✭✭Curious_Death wrote: »Skill lines with skills based on classes, so you could start with a Templar who can do some minion raising skills, or a Dragon Knight with some Warden style healing.
I’m not saying the exact same skills as the full class, that would make it useless for a class to get their own class skill line.
The idea would be for these skill lines to have abilities that would be ‘extra’- more minion raising for Necromancer or narrowing of stealth radius as a passives among other things for Nightblades.
Things that can’t fit into the main class skill lines but would be useful for everyone.
Thoughts?
And pepperoni pizza with ice cream sauce yes - same logic! then add salt to sprite... mmmmm delicious idea!
Professional thread de-railer, huh?0
