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consider a removal of CP from PvP for now, just make everything no CP.

Wing
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yeah I know, but, hear me out.

I have over 1k CP too so I don't want to hear "but muh CP's!"

this is something they could do literally tomorrow, just bam and done.

it would deal with the tank meta to a very large degree,

AND

increase server performance, as the server would not have to make checks against CP% (this is something it does do and they have talked about this in the past, they re structured some passives back in the day to reduce checks, but the CP system by and large causes performance issues because its another layer of calculations the server has to perform)


so yes, "muh CP's" and all that, and in a perfect world the CP system would already be gone and replaced with whatever it is they intend to replace it with, and the server would not be a toaster, and everyone would not ball up in a single faction, etc. etc.


but for now, disabling CP in all campaigns is something that can be done with the flick of a switch that would lead to immediate improvements to gameplay and performance, and that is something worth doing.



QUOTE from ZOS Brian Wheeler: (lead combat dev)

Champion Rank passives and abilities are causing too much server load, especially in situations like Keep battles where there are tons of players in one place.




@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Edited by Wing on March 22, 2020 12:52PM
ESO player since beta.
full time subscriber.
PC NA
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  • Dr_Ganknstein
    Dr_Ganknstein
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    Only reason performance would seem better in a different campaign is because of the population in that campaign.
    Less people = less bad performance
    More people = very bad performance
  • Juhasow
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    We're long after the point where CP disabled PvP would mean generally better performance. Things got messed up really badly.
    Edited by Juhasow on March 21, 2020 12:11PM
  • Tranquilizer
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    Well, I'd welcome this not as part of performace change, but for balancing purposes. This way, pvp balancing could nearly completely separated from pve balancing.

    Make all pvp activities no-cp
    Balance all active and passive skills for pvp
    Use cp to bring skills to desired pve level
    What you can't balance this way, use battle spirit
    Profit (?)
  • Master_Kas
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    Imo: If they turn it back to the way game was before CP sure. Then you can delete the CP

    If not, no. Just no.

    EU | PC
  • mav1234
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    Not convinced CP has much to do with lag, and I only play in nocp.

    if removing CP would fix performance, sure.

    but even though I agree no cp overall has some better performance, it still lags occasionally, so CP alone does not explain what we see.
  • Wing
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    mav1234 wrote: »
    Not convinced CP has much to do with lag, and I only play in nocp.

    if removing CP would fix performance, sure.

    but even though I agree no cp overall has some better performance, it still lags occasionally, so CP alone does not explain what we see.

    It wouldn't fix a single thing, zos already tested removing cp for a period of time to see if performance would improve and it didn't, it didn't make a single difference.

    My guess is OP didn't play back then and didn't know they had tried this.

    reading is hard I guess.

    been playing this game full time since beta, CP does add server calculations, this is not supposition this is fact. the ONLY time they have removed CP across all campaigns were for specific limited time events.

    if you want to claim CP does not effect performance or that they tried this, provide links and dates.



    QUOTE from ZOS Brian Wheeler: (lead combat dev)

    Champion Rank passives and abilities are causing too much server load, especially in situations like Keep battles where there are tons of players in one place.

    /end
    Edited by Wing on March 22, 2020 12:51PM
    ESO player since beta.
    full time subscriber.
    PC NA
    ( ^_^ )

    You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods -Xenogears
    DK one trick
  • Defilted
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    I don't remember the date but ZOS suspended CP for period of time and it made no difference in Cyro.
    XBOX NA
    XBOX Series X

    #NightmareBear
  • MaxJrFTW
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    That would be the best, but then what are people going to crutch on for their 1vx videos?
    Edited by MaxJrFTW on March 22, 2020 2:53PM
    "I don't know you, and I don't care to know you."
    ―Ulrich Leland, 3E 433
  • Wing
    Wing
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    Wing wrote: »
    mav1234 wrote: »
    Not convinced CP has much to do with lag, and I only play in nocp.

    if removing CP would fix performance, sure.

    but even though I agree no cp overall has some better performance, it still lags occasionally, so CP alone does not explain what we see.

    It wouldn't fix a single thing, zos already tested removing cp for a period of time to see if performance would improve and it didn't, it didn't make a single difference.

    My guess is OP didn't play back then and didn't know they had tried this.

    reading is hard I guess.

    been playing this game full time since beta, CP does add server calculations, this is not supposition this is fact. the ONLY time they have removed CP across all campaigns were for specific limited time events.

    if you want to claim CP does not effect performance or that they tried this, provide links and dates.



    QUOTE from ZOS Brian Wheeler: (lead combat dev)

    Champion Rank passives and abilities are causing too much server load, especially in situations like Keep battles where there are tons of players in one place.

    /end

    February 2017.
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/323521/cyrodiil-performance-test-and-double-ap-event/p1

    That's the post that says that the No CP campaign performs better...and sets up the performance tests when ZOS did a two week double AP event to test No CP in all campaigns.

    Now, logic would suggest that if they found a substantial difference or improvement, 2017 would have been the time to swap everyone to No CP, right?

    Which they kinda did. They replaced the CP 7 day campaign with No CP 7 day Almalexia...which later got replaced by CP enabled 7 day Shor. It didn't take that long before we were right back to where we were before those performance tests: 2 CP campaigns and 1 No CP campaign, with ZOS not wanting to give No CP players a second option even when their only choice was faction-locked.

    In short, I'm not seeing any evidence that ZOS thinks forcing everyone to play in No CP Cyrodiil is a viable solution to performance.

    except the conclusions of that test were never ANYWHERE made public, and the idea that "oh guess that means its fine" is just player supposition.

    the FACTS we know is that the CP system is causing server load, fact, we have it from devs.

    and as you stated we got another no cp campaign that was later replaced.

    HOWEVER

    its replacement had NOTHING to do with the fact that "oh I guess that means CP is fine" but a couple other reasons.

    -1) people gravitate to one main campaign, that being CP, even when performance is terrible, players would rather sit in 100+ queue's then go to any other campaign

    -2) people want to use their CP, there are many a thread about "I worked for it wah wah"

    -3) pvp has been on a steady decline for years and the amount of campaigns and what kind they are is more for constancy rather then need, there might as well only be one campaign with current pop but others are left for the sake of covering base options.

    we also know CP is a problem because the devs ARE replacing it (though we don't know with what) this is, once again, a FACT. its not increasing anymore, its being removed, its being replaced with something else.

    there are other things like ZOS refusing to admit mistakes, all but abandoning pvp development, the gutting of pvp population (prime top does not even see max pop factions on the main campaign on occasion) but those are not as performance based.
    ESO player since beta.
    full time subscriber.
    PC NA
    ( ^_^ )

    You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods -Xenogears
    DK one trick
  • Wing
    Wing
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    MaxJrFTW wrote: »
    That would be the best, but then what are people going to crutch on for their 1vx videos?

    stamcro
    ESO player since beta.
    full time subscriber.
    PC NA
    ( ^_^ )

    You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods -Xenogears
    DK one trick
  • Ranger209
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    First off let me state that I am pro CP
    Second let me state that I am even more pro good performance.
    That being said the first thing I thought was well is No CP behaving any better than CP as mentioned above.
    It was stated that No CP had just as bad of performance as CP, and also restated that when this avenue was pursued a few years back it was determined that there really wasn't any difference then either performance-wise whether CP was enable or not.

    So I have to ask the question, what is involved in enabling/disabling CP? Is there a separate coding path that no CP uses when performing combat calculations, or is it the same path and same calculations where the only difference is that anywhere a variable references CP in some way that it kicks out a value of 0.

    I mean if it is a separate code being used for No CP and there is no difference then there is nothing to be gained.
    If, however, the same code is being used with CP related variables equating to 0 then it is performing all of the same CP calculations that it does regardless if it is CP or No CP and nothing has been gained.

    Are there completely different calculations being used for No CP than for CP, or are they the same? @ZOS_BrianWheeler
  • BaiterOfZergs
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    Didn’t they buff ap at the time of testing no cp? I don’t think that was the wisest choice for a test. Yeah you’re seeing how it’ll impact the server but it also create more zerg scenarios that aren’t necessarily normal. We all know how ap events go.

    No cp has lag but it’s not like cp pvp. Lag exists in most pvp games so to expect it to be nonexistent..well. I don’t think removing cp fixes the tank problem but it definitely lessens it. Those tanks are still killable most of the time by a single player, just tedious.

    I play no cp all the time only go to cp for solo small scale purposes these days. They both have their issues but for gameplay I’m willing to lose the ease that comes with cp for a better overall experience. Remove cp, give us our stats back and start balancing around no cp. I remember not having cp at all , we’d be fine.
    Zerg of House Smallscale, First of his name, wielder of Volendrung, battleground hero, Cyrodiil butcher, the swifft footed, OG of the Templars and first pvpers, defender of scrolls and baiter of zergs.
  • VaranisArano
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    Didn’t they buff ap at the time of testing no cp? I don’t think that was the wisest choice for a test. Yeah you’re seeing how it’ll impact the server but it also create more zerg scenarios that aren’t necessarily normal. We all know how ap events go.

    No cp has lag but it’s not like cp pvp. Lag exists in most pvp games so to expect it to be nonexistent..well. I don’t think removing cp fixes the tank problem but it definitely lessens it. Those tanks are still killable most of the time by a single player, just tedious.

    I play no cp all the time only go to cp for solo small scale purposes these days. They both have their issues but for gameplay I’m willing to lose the ease that comes with cp for a better overall experience. Remove cp, give us our stats back and start balancing around no cp. I remember not having cp at all , we’d be fine.

    They did a double AP week in order to get players to show up and test in numbers commensurate with the normal campaign load. At the time, Trueflame was regularly poplocked with long queues at Primetime, and Haderus was actually a competitive 7-day camapign so its not like they were actually adding additional players for the test. I played on both campaigns during the test, and player behavior was pretty normal - aside from the idiots who got themselves banned for AP flipping resources and outposts.
  • thankyourat
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    MaxJrFTW wrote: »
    That would be the best, but then what are people going to crutch on for their 1vx videos?

    As a solo player I would get way more 1vX clips if cp was removed. It’s usually not the solo players clutching on CP because they usually have good game mechanics. It’s usually the players that are fighting the solo players that are crutching on CP and over powered defensive abilities to stay alive...

    I also find it funny that everyone seems to always complain about the tank meta but no one seems to want to remove CP which of one of the main things allowing the tank meta to exist.
  • BaiterOfZergs
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    Didn’t they buff ap at the time of testing no cp? I don’t think that was the wisest choice for a test. Yeah you’re seeing how it’ll impact the server but it also create more zerg scenarios that aren’t necessarily normal. We all know how ap events go.

    No cp has lag but it’s not like cp pvp. Lag exists in most pvp games so to expect it to be nonexistent..well. I don’t think removing cp fixes the tank problem but it definitely lessens it. Those tanks are still killable most of the time by a single player, just tedious.

    I play no cp all the time only go to cp for solo small scale purposes these days. They both have their issues but for gameplay I’m willing to lose the ease that comes with cp for a better overall experience. Remove cp, give us our stats back and start balancing around no cp. I remember not having cp at all , we’d be fine.

    They did a double AP week in order to get players to show up and test in numbers commensurate with the normal campaign load. At the time, Trueflame was regularly poplocked with long queues at Primetime, and Haderus was actually a competitive 7-day camapign so its not like they were actually adding additional players for the test. I played on both campaigns during the test, and player behavior was pretty normal - aside from the idiots who got themselves banned for AP flipping resources and outposts.

    Still double ap pvp and regular pvp aren’t exactly the same. People definitely play differently as in they zerg more and since a good portion had no idea how to play without cp it only encouraged stacking up.

    Edited by BaiterOfZergs on March 22, 2020 11:18PM
    Zerg of House Smallscale, First of his name, wielder of Volendrung, battleground hero, Cyrodiil butcher, the swifft footed, OG of the Templars and first pvpers, defender of scrolls and baiter of zergs.
  • Cathexis
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    idk wrote: »
    Want to PvP without CP there is already a campaign for that. Zos already gave you the choice. No need to force your choice on everyone else. I doubt Zos will make any changes concerning CP until they decide how to go forward.

    That's true but why would you ever pvp in cp pvp at this point I have no idea. Non-cp even at this point is barely adequate.
    The Tomb of FPS Alteration Magic - Everything You Need to Know About FPS
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    Praise Malacath.
  • Casul
    Casul
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    Just give me back alliance lock no CP plz
    ID: YourACasulPSN: CP 1500 Stamden (Retired)LV 32 Imperial Stamplar (Active)PC:CP 800 Heathcro (Retired)
  • idk
    idk
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    Cathexis wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    Want to PvP without CP there is already a campaign for that. Zos already gave you the choice. No need to force your choice on everyone else. I doubt Zos will make any changes concerning CP until they decide how to go forward.

    That's true but why would you ever pvp in cp pvp at this point I have no idea. Non-cp even at this point is barely adequate.

    Is this a serious question? Why are you concerned why players would choose a CP campaign over a non-CP campaign?

    Again, if you want to play PvP without CP, go ahead. You are given that option but it is nonsense to want to take choice away from others just because you do not like it.
  • Kidgangster101
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    idk wrote: »
    Cathexis wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    Want to PvP without CP there is already a campaign for that. Zos already gave you the choice. No need to force your choice on everyone else. I doubt Zos will make any changes concerning CP until they decide how to go forward.

    That's true but why would you ever pvp in cp pvp at this point I have no idea. Non-cp even at this point is barely adequate.

    Is this a serious question? Why are you concerned why players would choose a CP campaign over a non-CP campaign?

    Again, if you want to play PvP without CP, go ahead. You are given that option but it is nonsense to want to take choice away from others just because you do not like it.

    Just like they took the choice of battlegrounds away from PREMADES right? :trollface:
  • Kidgangster101
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    Ranger209 wrote: »
    First off let me state that I am pro CP
    Second let me state that I am even more pro good performance.
    That being said the first thing I thought was well is No CP behaving any better than CP as mentioned above.
    It was stated that No CP had just as bad of performance as CP, and also restated that when this avenue was pursued a few years back it was determined that there really wasn't any difference then either performance-wise whether CP was enable or not.

    So I have to ask the question, what is involved in enabling/disabling CP? Is there a separate coding path that no CP uses when performing combat calculations, or is it the same path and same calculations where the only difference is that anywhere a variable references CP in some way that it kicks out a value of 0.

    I mean if it is a separate code being used for No CP and there is no difference then there is nothing to be gained.
    If, however, the same code is being used with CP related variables equating to 0 then it is performing all of the same CP calculations that it does regardless if it is CP or No CP and nothing has been gained.

    Are there completely different calculations being used for No CP than for CP, or are they the same? @ZOS_BrianWheeler

    Well this is one scenario of how cp affects it. I am on a bomber and I hit 20+ people with magical det. Upon my magical det going off the server has to calculate all of my cp that buffs my magical det and my penetration from cp and compare it to my opponents. So that's 20+ people for my one move just imagine how much lag that creates. Now you add a second bomber, then a third and so on. It has to check every single one every second I am continuing my bomb cycle. It has to look at their bonus to crit resistance, fire damage, magic damage ECT ECT ECT. And that is just on the offense side. Now you add in the healing the group being bombed is doing. Every heal has to check everyone cp to see if they get bonus healing, is it a crit heal and do they get a bonus from cp there, now after they are healed they counter attack. Now the cp calculations go in reverse. Their 20+ people start to use their offensive cp while more of my team comes. So now we have 40+ people total fighting and calculating 810cp from 40+ people every half second to full second......... That doesn't cause lag how?

    Lol people are flying real high in the skies if they don't think that doesn't contribute to the lag one bit 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
  • killimandrosb16_ESO
    killimandrosb16_ESO
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    Wing wrote: »
    yeah I know, but, hear me out.

    I have over 1k CP too so I don't want to hear "but muh CP's!"

    this is something they could do literally tomorrow, just bam and done.

    it would deal with the tank meta to a very large degree,

    AND

    increase server performance, as the server would not have to make checks against CP% (this is something it does do and they have talked about this in the past, they re structured some passives back in the day to reduce checks, but the CP system by and large causes performance issues because its another layer of calculations the server has to perform)


    so yes, "muh CP's" and all that, and in a perfect world the CP system would already be gone and replaced with whatever it is they intend to replace it with, and the server would not be a toaster, and everyone would not ball up in a single faction, etc. etc.


    but for now, disabling CP in all campaigns is something that can be done with the flick of a switch that would lead to immediate improvements to gameplay and performance, and that is something worth doing.



    QUOTE from ZOS Brian Wheeler: (lead combat dev)

    Champion Rank passives and abilities are causing too much server load, especially in situations like Keep battles where there are tons of players in one place.




    @ZOS_BrianWheeler

    I didnt bother reading the replies. I agree with your points and thoughts. Also make groups smaller. Remember the lag free environmet we had when grouping was bugged.
  • pieratsos
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    Didn’t they buff ap at the time of testing no cp? I don’t think that was the wisest choice for a test. Yeah you’re seeing how it’ll impact the server but it also create more zerg scenarios that aren’t necessarily normal. We all know how ap events go.

    No cp has lag but it’s not like cp pvp. Lag exists in most pvp games so to expect it to be nonexistent..well. I don’t think removing cp fixes the tank problem but it definitely lessens it. Those tanks are still killable most of the time by a single player, just tedious.

    I play no cp all the time only go to cp for solo small scale purposes these days. They both have their issues but for gameplay I’m willing to lose the ease that comes with cp for a better overall experience. Remove cp, give us our stats back and start balancing around no cp. I remember not having cp at all , we’d be fine.

    They did a double AP week in order to get players to show up and test in numbers commensurate with the normal campaign load. At the time, Trueflame was regularly poplocked with long queues at Primetime, and Haderus was actually a competitive 7-day camapign so its not like they were actually adding additional players for the test. I played on both campaigns during the test, and player behavior was pretty normal - aside from the idiots who got themselves banned for AP flipping resources and outposts.

    It was anything but normal. What are u even talking about. There were literally hundreds of players stacked in one outpost flipping the flags for AP. That's why the test was a complete failure. Because it completely altered gameplay in a way that put so much God damn strain on the servers to the point where cp or no cp, u would crash anw.
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