Buff Warden DDs ZOS; they arent just healers :'(

Quantorn

At the moment Warden is again in a weak spot in comparison to other classes in DPS. The recent update gave warden more utility, yes, but it also pushed it again more into the support role instead of being a good class for Magicka and Stamina DPS. Since the introduction of the warden class it never was a top tier damage class, at the current state its again a class only played for support in raids, im unsure if ZOS even desigend for being a damage class because its good as support and good as tank, but as DD you cant compare it to other classes, which are easier to play with a higher damage in reward, for example Magdk and Stamplar. Pls ZOS take care of this balance issue.

The reason for the warden being worse as DD is a bad scaling of it skills with some major problems in class design in the current game state.
- For example warden offers no good execute, the bear cant be really called an execute, since it isnt affected by bloodthirsty unlike any other execute in the game, since the bear is categorized as pet and afaik pets arent affected by bloodthirsty.
- the spamable of the class was buffed but yet it isnt strong enough to outdamage a DoT rotation, so maybe buff the bird again damagewise or let it scale better.
- If the warden design is centered around getting bonus for fighting a chilled target, which would give the class a more unique gameplay style, maybe let magwarden better synergize with the chilled status effect, give the skills for example special bonus effects against chilled enemys. Stamwarden could be more centered around the added creatures and their effects, both could be done by changing the bear ultimate.
For example
Eternal Guardian: Scales with bloodthirsty, damage against chilled targets is increased by x% (instead of letting it respawn after being killed, this is useless in the current game state since pets dont die from any other NPCs only players )
Wild Guardian: Scales with bloodthristy, damage against targets affected by swarm and cutting dive effects is increased by y%; stacking per ability which is affecting the enemy.
- For Magwarden for example the screaming cliffracer could also be changed, instead of a damage increase with distance maybe give it for example bonus damage against chilled enemys or maybe or give it the ability to always crit. hit on chilled targets.

This could be possibilities to buff the Warden class while giving it a more unique gameplay instead of just changing damage and calculation of abilities, this would also be enough. But i think the part of changing the morphs of the Guardian should be done to make it more fitting to the current game state and other pets.
Pls give me your opinion, maybe im the only person wanting warden to be a better Damage class, even if it looses some support ability. If you have any other ideas let me know .

Taleof2Cities

The design of the class is fine, @Quantorn ... there are other roles in the game besides DPS.

Let’s not fix what isn’t broken on tank, healer, and support roles.

LeHarrt91

Its just hard to Buff Warden DPS in PvE, without making them OP in PvP.

dazee

the way the devs have explained it, all classes should be able to be DPS, Healer, or Tank and thus yes, Warden needs dps buffs. Sorry old school MMO raiders! this game might not be for you!

ESO_Nightingale

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Its just hard to Buff Warden DPS in PvE, without making them OP in PvP.

Not really. It involves making the skills more powerful while removing raw damage boosts like minor berserk.

ESO_Nightingale

Quantorn wrote: »

At the moment Warden is again in a weak spot in comparison to other classes in DPS. The recent update gave warden more utility, yes, but it also pushed it again more into the support role instead of being a good class for Magicka and Stamina DPS. Since the introduction of the warden class it never was a top tier damage class, at the current state its again a class only played for support in raids, im unsure if ZOS even desigend for being a damage class because its good as support and good as tank, but as DD you cant compare it to other classes, which are easier to play with a higher damage in reward, for example Magdk and Stamplar. Pls ZOS take care of this balance issue.

The reason for the warden being worse as DD is a bad scaling of it skills with some major problems in class design in the current game state.
- For example warden offers no good execute, the bear cant be really called an execute, since it isnt affected by bloodthirsty unlike any other execute in the game, since the bear is categorized as pet and afaik pets arent affected by bloodthirsty.
- the spamable of the class was buffed but yet it isnt strong enough to outdamage a DoT rotation, so maybe buff the bird again damagewise or let it scale better.
- If the warden design is centered around getting bonus for fighting a chilled target, which would give the class a more unique gameplay style, maybe let magwarden better synergize with the chilled status effect, give the skills for example special bonus effects against chilled enemys. Stamwarden could be more centered around the added creatures and their effects, both could be done by changing the bear ultimate.
For example
Eternal Guardian: Scales with bloodthirsty, damage against chilled targets is increased by x% (instead of letting it respawn after being killed, this is useless in the current game state since pets dont die from any other NPCs only players )
Wild Guardian: Scales with bloodthristy, damage against targets affected by swarm and cutting dive effects is increased by y%; stacking per ability which is affecting the enemy.
- For Magwarden for example the screaming cliffracer could also be changed, instead of a damage increase with distance maybe give it for example bonus damage against chilled enemys or maybe or give it the ability to always crit. hit on chilled targets.

This could be possibilities to buff the Warden class while giving it a more unique gameplay instead of just changing damage and calculation of abilities, this would also be enough. But i think the part of changing the morphs of the Guardian should be done to make it more fitting to the current game state and other pets.
Pls give me your opinion, maybe im the only person wanting warden to be a better Damage class, even if it looses some support ability. If you have any other ideas let me know .

I agree that warden dps needs a buff in terms of class skill power, but a nerf with it's raw damage passives.

Here is my overall changes plan.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fWoOX0S4yrR_KFZcjBAvHvR2K6T__6LrIGiaERV8NQA/edit?usp=drivesdk

Freakin_Hytte

No they are not only healers, they are great tanks as well wardens don't have to be top for everything, they are the best healers and second strongest tank and tbh you can still reach high enough numbers to complete all the content with wardens as well.

They are in a good spot imo.

Skjaldbjorn

Wardens are hardly "in a good spot". They're viable if your group doesn't care about maximizing numbers, sure. If they do, Wardens are literally a joke. Legitimately, the most commonly joked about class.

Its just hard to Buff Warden DPS in PvE, without making them OP in PvP.

It's not like it's difficult. People complain about Warden burst from shalks, simple solution. Bump the overall damage by 10%, but have 20-40% of it apply as a DoT over 3 seconds. Less burst, more consistent damage. It creates a dynamic where properly weaving it every 3 seconds makes it even more valuable and powerful.

Game design and game balance simply isn't this damn difficult.

MashmalloMan

dazee wrote: »

the way the devs have explained it, all classes should be able to be DPS, Healer, or Tank and thus yes, Warden needs dps buffs. Sorry old school MMO raiders! this game might not be for you!

You're misquoting ZOS. Warden's are ABLE to dps. Every class is able to do ANY role competitively now. What OP is asking for is to be more closesly to the top of the totem pole in the ever changing and ever growing DPS race. ZOS never agreed that every class should be the best at everything. That's impossible. They said every class should be capable and viable, not always optimal. Warden is capable. It doesn't mean they don't deserve changes, mainly because the bear isn't reliable, but people need to look at the bigger picture.

You can read notes straight from the devs on this topic via this link:

https://elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/57025

Warden's are amazing in pvp, they have access to the most amount of buffs available in class. These become redundant in trials which is probably why their dps seems so low, but they are amazing for anything solo based. Major Brutality attached to your sustain skill, Major Savagery attached to passive heal skill, Major Fracture attached to burst skill, Minor Vulnerability attached to dot, Minor Berserk passively, Major Resolve attached to Minor Protection skill, Major Protection attached to ult, Major Mending passively, and Major Heroism attached to defensive skill.

This is why balancing their dps any higher is so difficult. Without much sacrifice, you're able to pump out all these buffs/debuffs that most classes have trouble accessing or will never access in pvp or solo environments. When you place them in a trial where everyone has access to everything, they start to fall behind. The bear doesn't help with this since they're not very reliable in a trial. This seems to be intentional by ZOS. Making wardens amazing 1 man armies, but they lose some of that potential when buffs become redundant in a group.

I don't understand the constant need to bump your dps by 5% because you feel like others are stronger than you. You don't need 95k dps to complete anything in this game.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=YbW03OA8xQc (Swap Aegis to Lokke since it was nerfed in this test)

88.9k dps is 3k less than this youtubers parse with 91k on stam sorc. 95k with Necro is because they get Major vulnerability which a warden would get in a raid to bump up that 88.9k higher since that debuff is not available on the raid dummy.

Edit: This is exactly what I'm talking about. By removing some in-class 1 man army power, you are freeing up the classes raw power budget, making them stronger in raids where people are complaining about their dps..

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Its just hard to Buff Warden DPS in PvE, without making them OP in PvP.

Not really. It involves making the skills more powerful while removing raw damage boosts like minor berserk.

Skjaldbjorn

MashmalloMan wrote: »

https://youtube.com/watch?v=YbW03OA8xQc

88.9k dps is 3k less than this youtubers parse with 91k on stam sorc. 95k with Necro is because they get Major vulnerability which a warden would get in a raid to bump up that 88.9k higher since that debuff is not available on the raid dummy.

You need to check that again, because that parse was pre-Aegis nerf. It's 4-5k lower now.

Langeston

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Its just hard to Buff Warden DPS in PvE, without making them OP in PvP.

Well, it's too late for that...

Runefang

MashmalloMan wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

the way the devs have explained it, all classes should be able to be DPS, Healer, or Tank and thus yes, Warden needs dps buffs. Sorry old school MMO raiders! this game might not be for you!

You're misquoting ZOS. Warden's are ABLE to dps. Every class is able to do ANY role competitively now. What OP is asking for is to be more closesly to the top of the totem pole in the ever changing and ever growing DPS race. ZOS never agreed that every class should be the best at everything. That's impossible. They said every class should be capable and viable, not always optimal. Warden is capable. It doesn't mean they don't deserve changes, mainly because the bear isn't reliable, but people need to look at the bigger picture.

You can read notes straight from the devs on this topic via this link:

https://elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/57025

Warden's are amazing in pvp, they have access to the most amount of buffs available in class. These become redundant in trials which is probably why their dps seems so low, but they are amazing for anything solo based. Major Brutality attached to your sustain skill, Major Savagery attached to passive heal skill, Major Fracture attached to burst skill, Minor Vulnerability attached to dot, Minor Berserk passively, Major Resolve attached to Minor Protection skill, Major Protection attached to ult, Major Mending passively, and Major Heroism attached to defensive skill.

This is why balancing their dps any higher is so difficult. Without much sacrifice, you're able to pump out all these buffs/debuffs that most classes have trouble accessing or will never access in pvp or solo environments. When you place them in a trial where everyone has access to everything, they start to fall behind. The bear doesn't help with this since they're not very reliable in a trial. This seems to be intentional by ZOS. Making wardens amazing 1 man armies, but they lose some of that potential when buffs become redundant in a group.

I don't understand the constant need to bump your dps by 5% because you feel like others are stronger than you. You don't need 95k dps to complete anything in this game.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=YbW03OA8xQc

88.9k dps is 3k less than this youtubers parse with 91k on stam sorc. 95k with Necro is because they get Major vulnerability which a warden would get in a raid to bump up that 88.9k higher since that debuff is not available on the raid dummy.

First Stamdens do well on the trial dummy because they get to maximise the damage increase they get during the off balance window. It’s impossible to do that in a real trial, so even with all the raid buffs in the world they’ll never come close to doing that for real. Please do more than just search YT for a good parse number.

Second if you look at the logs wardens as dps are a LONG way behind the other classes in terms of both top end parses and utilisation (number of recorded parses).

Yes they’re good tanks and healers. No that doesn’t mean they’re dps should be allowed to be bad. Being able to clear content is a low bar to set, all classes should be sufficiently competent too such that using them in progression groups aren’t frowned upon.

Freakin_Hytte

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Wardens are hardly "in a good spot". They're viable if your group doesn't care about maximizing numbers, sure. If they do, Wardens are literally a joke. Legitimately, the most commonly joked about class.

Well do you really need to hit 95k on a dummy to complete all the vet content? No absolutely not, 85-90k works just fine.
If you're in a group that wants to maximize everything then just don't play warden, they are already the best healers and second best tanks and they can dish out enough damage to complete every vet content in the game, they are also one of the strongest solo classes and are really strong in pvp. That is being in a good spot in my opinion.

MashmalloMan

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

https://youtube.com/watch?v=YbW03OA8xQc

88.9k dps is 3k less than this youtubers parse with 91k on stam sorc. 95k with Necro is because they get Major vulnerability which a warden would get in a raid to bump up that 88.9k higher since that debuff is not available on the raid dummy.

You need to check that again, because that parse was pre-Aegis nerf. It's 4-5k lower now.

Fair enough, but you could swap Aegis back to Lokke and I bet it's back around that 89k mark. Aegis + Rele performed slightly weaker than Lokke + Rele before the nerf anyway. Point still stands. I agree they need buffs, but some people are blowing it out of proportion.

Skjaldbjorn

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

https://youtube.com/watch?v=YbW03OA8xQc

88.9k dps is 3k less than this youtubers parse with 91k on stam sorc. 95k with Necro is because they get Major vulnerability which a warden would get in a raid to bump up that 88.9k higher since that debuff is not available on the raid dummy.

You need to check that again, because that parse was pre-Aegis nerf. It's 4-5k lower now.

Fair enough, but you could swap Aegis back to Lokke and I bet it's back around that 89k mark. Aegis + Rele performed slightly weaker than Lokke + Rele before the nerf anyway. Point still stands. I agree they need buffs, but some people are blowing it out of proportion.

Yeah, no lol I actually have spoken to Skinny a couple times, and he even openly admits Stamden DPS is undeniably abysmal. I actually told him i'd Paypal him 50 bucks if he posted a competitive (90k+) Stamden parse in the current climate. Straight up serious. I hold a fair few top world Stamden parses on ESOLogs for a variety of bosses. #1 Stamden in vHOF and top-50/100 for a lot of boss in there this patch. Stamden is just straight up bad right now. Stamplar pulls 10-20k more with a four button rotation. It's comical.

MashmalloMan

Runefang wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

the way the devs have explained it, all classes should be able to be DPS, Healer, or Tank and thus yes, Warden needs dps buffs. Sorry old school MMO raiders! this game might not be for you!

You're misquoting ZOS. Warden's are ABLE to dps. Every class is able to do ANY role competitively now. What OP is asking for is to be more closesly to the top of the totem pole in the ever changing and ever growing DPS race. ZOS never agreed that every class should be the best at everything. That's impossible. They said every class should be capable and viable, not always optimal. Warden is capable. It doesn't mean they don't deserve changes, mainly because the bear isn't reliable, but people need to look at the bigger picture.

You can read notes straight from the devs on this topic via this link:

https://elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/57025

Warden's are amazing in pvp, they have access to the most amount of buffs available in class. These become redundant in trials which is probably why their dps seems so low, but they are amazing for anything solo based. Major Brutality attached to your sustain skill, Major Savagery attached to passive heal skill, Major Fracture attached to burst skill, Minor Vulnerability attached to dot, Minor Berserk passively, Major Resolve attached to Minor Protection skill, Major Protection attached to ult, Major Mending passively, and Major Heroism attached to defensive skill.

This is why balancing their dps any higher is so difficult. Without much sacrifice, you're able to pump out all these buffs/debuffs that most classes have trouble accessing or will never access in pvp or solo environments. When you place them in a trial where everyone has access to everything, they start to fall behind. The bear doesn't help with this since they're not very reliable in a trial. This seems to be intentional by ZOS. Making wardens amazing 1 man armies, but they lose some of that potential when buffs become redundant in a group.

I don't understand the constant need to bump your dps by 5% because you feel like others are stronger than you. You don't need 95k dps to complete anything in this game.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=YbW03OA8xQc

88.9k dps is 3k less than this youtubers parse with 91k on stam sorc. 95k with Necro is because they get Major vulnerability which a warden would get in a raid to bump up that 88.9k higher since that debuff is not available on the raid dummy.

First Stamdens do well on the trial dummy because they get to maximise the damage increase they get during the off balance window. It’s impossible to do that in a real trial, so even with all the raid buffs in the world they’ll never come close to doing that for real. Please do more than just search YT for a good parse number.

Second if you look at the logs wardens as dps are a LONG way behind the other classes in terms of both top end parses and utilisation (number of recorded parses).

Yes they’re good tanks and healers. No that doesn’t mean they’re dps should be allowed to be bad. Being able to clear content is a low bar to set, all classes should be sufficiently competent too such that using them in progression groups aren’t frowned upon.

I never said they don't deserve buffs, in fact I believe they do, but a trade needs to be made and the context of the enitre class needs to be looked at it instead of "DPS LOW, ZOS BUFF.". You can't simply ask for buff after buff and expect to lose nothing for it. Warden's have many possitives that people seem to sweep under the rug, the person I quoted said ZOS wants all classes able to DPS. As far as I'm concerned, thats already true, minor tweaks like some OP's suggestions would help them be more competitive without making them the best.

Making them less reliant on a bear AI for dps is a good starting point as well as buffing most spammables since the only ones worth a damn are flurry, wrecking blow and jabs. The parse I linked achieved that dps without cliff racer, flurry is already better apparently which is exactly why the skill needs a rework so I'll agree on the weird off-balance interaction to make the spammable remotely competitive.

If you want to bring logs into the discussion, that would only help your arguments, so please do. I have nothing against them getting buffs and I'd rather see people providing evidence like yourself. My issue is with people complaining about 1-5% of dps vs other class as if it matters when every patch in this game is different. The dps race is sometime futile. If you're 10-20% beind others, sure, I agree.

Skjaldbjorn

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Making them less reliant on a bear AI for dps is a good starting point as well as buffing most spammables since the only ones worth a damn are flurry, wrecking blow and jabs. The parse I linked achieved that dps without cliff racer, flurry is already better apparently which is exactly why the skill needs a rework so I'll agree on the weird off-balance interaction to make the spammable remotely competitive.

If you want to bring logs into the discussion, that would only help your arguments, so please do. I have nothing against them getting buffs and I'd rather see people providing evidence like yourself. My issue is with people complaining about 1-5% of dps vs other class as if it matters when every patch in this game is different. The dps race is sometime futile. If you're 10-20% beind others, sure, I agree.

They did that. A few patches ago. They reduced the bear's power and put it in the Animal Companions passive "Advanced Species". Bumped the damage bonus from 2% per AC skill to 3%. That bumped us into the discussion for 2nd-3rd overall Stam DPS. Then they nerfed it back. Needlessly. It didn't make sense. Don't remove the band-aid without something to replace it. The bird bleed has been an abysmal solution. It's god awful in trials. It doesn't line up well with really solid rotations and the damage without the bleed took a nerf. It wasn't a good idea when they did it and it's aged like milk.

ccfeeling

Buff warden DPS , also buff NB healer , DK healer , Sorc healer , Nec healer and Templar tank .

Fair trade .

Skjaldbjorn

ccfeeling wrote: »

Buff warden DPS , also buff NB healer , DK healer , Sorc healer , Nec healer and Templar tank .

Fair trade .

Sure, sounds fine to me lol. I got no issue with any of that. Tho sorc healer is already pretty damn good.

ESO_Nightingale

I feel that they mostly need a buff to class skill reliability and power, and away from the passive raw damage boosts. So in a sense i think they need a power rebalancing within it's skills and passives. Not a straight buff when concerning magicka warden.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Buff warden DPS , also buff NB healer , DK healer , Sorc healer , Nec healer and Templar tank .

Fair trade .

Sure, sounds fine to me lol. I got no issue with any of that. Tho sorc healer is already pretty damn good.

I'm also cool with buffs to other classes.

Runefang

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

the way the devs have explained it, all classes should be able to be DPS, Healer, or Tank and thus yes, Warden needs dps buffs. Sorry old school MMO raiders! this game might not be for you!

You're misquoting ZOS. Warden's are ABLE to dps. Every class is able to do ANY role competitively now. What OP is asking for is to be more closesly to the top of the totem pole in the ever changing and ever growing DPS race. ZOS never agreed that every class should be the best at everything. That's impossible. They said every class should be capable and viable, not always optimal. Warden is capable. It doesn't mean they don't deserve changes, mainly because the bear isn't reliable, but people need to look at the bigger picture.

You can read notes straight from the devs on this topic via this link:

https://elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/57025

Warden's are amazing in pvp, they have access to the most amount of buffs available in class. These become redundant in trials which is probably why their dps seems so low, but they are amazing for anything solo based. Major Brutality attached to your sustain skill, Major Savagery attached to passive heal skill, Major Fracture attached to burst skill, Minor Vulnerability attached to dot, Minor Berserk passively, Major Resolve attached to Minor Protection skill, Major Protection attached to ult, Major Mending passively, and Major Heroism attached to defensive skill.

This is why balancing their dps any higher is so difficult. Without much sacrifice, you're able to pump out all these buffs/debuffs that most classes have trouble accessing or will never access in pvp or solo environments. When you place them in a trial where everyone has access to everything, they start to fall behind. The bear doesn't help with this since they're not very reliable in a trial. This seems to be intentional by ZOS. Making wardens amazing 1 man armies, but they lose some of that potential when buffs become redundant in a group.

I don't understand the constant need to bump your dps by 5% because you feel like others are stronger than you. You don't need 95k dps to complete anything in this game.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=YbW03OA8xQc

88.9k dps is 3k less than this youtubers parse with 91k on stam sorc. 95k with Necro is because they get Major vulnerability which a warden would get in a raid to bump up that 88.9k higher since that debuff is not available on the raid dummy.

First Stamdens do well on the trial dummy because they get to maximise the damage increase they get during the off balance window. It’s impossible to do that in a real trial, so even with all the raid buffs in the world they’ll never come close to doing that for real. Please do more than just search YT for a good parse number.

Second if you look at the logs wardens as dps are a LONG way behind the other classes in terms of both top end parses and utilisation (number of recorded parses).

Yes they’re good tanks and healers. No that doesn’t mean they’re dps should be allowed to be bad. Being able to clear content is a low bar to set, all classes should be sufficiently competent too such that using them in progression groups aren’t frowned upon.

I never said they don't deserve buffs, in fact I believe they do, but a trade needs to be made and the context of the enitre class needs to be looked at it instead of "DPS LOW, ZOS BUFF.". You can't simply ask for buff after buff and expect to lose nothing for it. Warden's have many possitives that people seem to sweep under the rug, the person I quoted said ZOS wants all classes able to DPS. As far as I'm concerned, thats already true, minor tweaks like some OP's suggestions would help them be more competitive without making them the best.

Making them less reliant on a bear AI for dps is a good starting point as well as buffing most spammables since the only ones worth a damn are flurry, wrecking blow and jabs. The parse I linked achieved that dps without cliff racer, flurry is already better apparently which is exactly why the skill needs a rework so I'll agree on the weird off-balance interaction to make the spammable remotely competitive.

If you want to bring logs into the discussion, that would only help your arguments, so please do. I have nothing against them getting buffs and I'd rather see people providing evidence like yourself. My issue is with people complaining about 1-5% of dps vs other class as if it matters when every patch in this game is different. The dps race is sometime futile. If you're 10-20% beind others, sure, I agree.

To be clear Wardens ARE 10-20% behind on DPS.

The average magicka DPS in non-hard mode fights across SO/AA/MoL/HoF and HM in AS/SS is 51k for the top 75% and 64.5k for the top 95%. For Magdens its 46k and 57k respectively. That's roughly 10% behind the average. I chose non-hard mode fights for those trials because most of the fights don't have a hard mode where as for SS and AS all fights have a hard mode.

The average stamina DPS in non-hard mode fights across SO/AA/MoL/HoF and HM in AS/SS is 45.6k for the top 75% and 58.5k for the top 95%. For Stamdens its 39k and 48k respectively. That's roughly 15% behind the average.

Wardens in those fights make up 3% of the total dps count, next lowest class are Nightblades who make up 14.3%.

The methodology to get the numbers is a bit unreliable I admit for a few reasons:
Its the average of each classes averages in those trials.
ESOlogs are unreliable because they don't include everybody's logs and the best players only make logs public when they're done with progressing generally.
The low count of Wardens also make it somewhat unreliable because its not statistically significant most of the time.
The best players play the best classes which skews results further than theory suggests it should. That shows up with results looking even worse for Warden at the top 95% compared with the top 75%.

All that said its still pretty damning evidence. For reference MagDKs are ~20% above the magicka DPS average and Stamcros are ~20% above the stamina DPS average.

Some other classes have issues of course, for example MagSorcs aren't in a great position (despite being 25% of all magicka dps characters in the logs). StamDK is also quite low in the top 75% logs though in the top 95% they close with the other dps classes.

Quantorn

I agree, warden isnt the only class having some balancing issues. Yes for PvP its right now good, because itd able to get most buffs easy, but other classes have this ability to. For example Necro, in pvp in the current state super defensive with still a high damage potential, in PvE toptier class... . Other classes also have in Pve also issues like Sorc yes, but unlike wardens, ZOS seems to care really about changing this class in its position by not only reworking its support potential.
For wardens in the last patches, the only tweaks been mostly support changes, the damage changes were more likely considered as a joke in my opinion. Yes, warden is good at healing, yes hes good at tanking, but other classes are too. But unlike wardens they can also be great DPS, some classes are better for different situations than others, but not the warden.
Unlike any other class, wardens yet have been the only class being a meme. Sorcs had their time but got buffed again, and since ZOS said it in the last patches, will be buffed and reworked in the future. Pls keep this in mind, every other class had its ups and downs, not so warden, there have been only times were it wasnt that bad in comparison, bit there was never a time, warden being a top class for dps. If you have issues, considering pvp balance, there is always the possibility to rework skills for more consistent damage instead of burst and also always the possibility to change skills and give it different damage numbers/effects against players...

Alienoutlaw

my warden just just fine as DD, still melts faces in PvP

Deathlord92

Nb deserves a buff more especially magblade at least your warden has a nice strong class heal.

Quantorn

@Deathlord92 Are you joking, magblade has a very good selfheal, like every other class... . And still im not talking about healing etc, im talking abaout DPS ...

Deathlord92

Quantorn wrote: »

@Deathlord92 Are you joking, magblade has a very good selfheal, like every other class... . And still im not talking abaout healing etc, im talking abaout DPS ...

What’s our self heal swallow soul don’t really count as it’s our spammable damage? And I really hope you mean mag warden I’d understand asking for mag warden but stam warden is actually very op on damage already with easy access to our minor berserk that was ripped from nb kit and minor vulnerability it’s very op

Quantorn

Dark cloak and refreshing path, and beside that, the spamable is elemental weapon or force pulse ^^

Deathlord92

Quantorn wrote: »

Dark cloak and refreshing path, and beside that, the spamable is elemental weapon or force pulse ^^

Dark cloak is no breath of life let’s be honest and I hardly see anyone using refreshing path for good reason at least for pvp anyways I’m coming from pvp perspective.

ESO_Nightingale

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Nb deserves a buff more especially magblade at least your warden has a nice strong class heal.

not saying NB doesn't need a buff or anything, in fact i think they have lost way too much over the past 2 years, but that's a really weird comparison to make, healing? this is about DPS. Desides. have you seen the patch notes? whenever a lot of class changes come in, NB and Warden both get changes. it's not like only 1 class gets a change every patch.

Langeston

Quantorn wrote: »

@Deathlord92 Are you joking, magblade has a very good selfheal, like every other class... . And still im not talking about healing etc, im talking abaout DPS ...

Try playing a BG without a resto back bar & get back to me about how great NBs self-heals are.