How much in DPS a Breton loses to a high elf?

Icaruzs

Just curious, both are magicka based dps. But high elfs have 250 more spell damage than bretons. But bretons have a stupid sustain.

In dummys how much a high elf wins in numbers against a breton? (Considering the same class,build and gear)?

In the real hard modes DLC dungeons and vet trials fights bretons wins over high elf? (Less need to stop your rotation for heavys and can use flat max magicka foods without magicka regen)

If you guys can help with this question i will be gratefull.

xWarbrain

It depends on too many other factors, not just race. You can add spell damage to a Breton, or recovery to a High Elf. If you run out of Magicka on a High Elf, you're not gaining the advantage of the extra spell damage.

Personally, I don't like Breton. I find it easier or more efficent to manage my recovery / mag pool on a higher damage build. Breton is probably easier to play. You might be able to end up with the same with the right build, but your tooltips have a higher potential (on paper) with a High Elf.

Neither choice is going to make a difference in terms of being able to complete any specific content. You're talking tiny percentages in difference in the end.

notvenousdrake

Bretons do have the advantage of looking extremely cute when created right though

FakeFox

It depends on the class. Ideally you of course want to build full damage, if you can do this on Altmer, it wins by a few percent. If that is not possible it becomes highly situational. In proper magicka compositions should have significantly more sustain then on the 21mil dummy, because you have symphony, hollowfang, additional synergies, etc. so from my experience Altmer is the better choice in that regard, for dummy parses you can then simply run magicka/magreg food and switch to magicka/health in trials. If you are doing a lot of solo stuff or play with uncoordinated groups, Breton can be the better choice, following your logic.

Nevasca

Depends on 1,class, 2. Build, and 3.player skill.

1. Classes that would allow you to run blue food by going breton, difference is like 1k on trial dummys from what I've seen. If you still need to go regen food even as breton, they lose value and difference in dps increases. I think the greatest difference was 3k when my friend tested it on magplar, dragonhold patch though.

2. For example, DKs with perfect AS + Elfbane actually oversustain (this might be a stretch) even on high elf + blue food from what I've observed, so going breton is pointless.

3. High elf power comes a lot from bash weaving with that sweet stamina sustain. If you can't bash weave the gap between damage potential gets closer.

You also can't dismiss breton resistances which can be huge for no deaths and progression groups for a lot(maybe all?) of fights

ATreeGnome

It depends largely on your class and group support in content.

If you are playing a class like magicka DK, which has lots of inherent sustain in this meta, the sustain passives from a Breton will be a lot less valuable than they would be on a magicka sorc, which tends to struggle more with resources.

If you are in a 12 man trial and the supports are providing Wormcult, Hollowfang, and all 4 are wearing Symphony of blades, you will probably have more sustain than you know what to do with on any class, which makes the Breton passives pretty useless.

If you are the kind of player who wants to squeeze out extra DPS by bash weaving, Altmer has the clear advantage given their passive that can return stamina when activating a class ability. It's a small advantage but it could probably be a 500+ DPS increase in some scenarios.

So Altmer clearly has the advantage in "perfect" scenarios and will always have a higher potential DPS output simply due to the fact that sustain has an effective cap on usefulness but damage doesn't.

That said, the sustain and spell resistance that Bretons get make them far more forgiving to play in real scenarios. If you expect to be playing with tanks and healers who aren't top tier and don't optimize their gear for group utility then Breton will often be the better choice. If you prefer solo play, Breton will be the better choice for most classes. If you're learning to play magicka DPS Breton will let you get away with making more mistakes (such as double casting an expensive ability or standing in an AoE).

Both are legitimately good choices (unlike the options stamina DPS have...) so I suggest picking based on the content you want to do and how organized of a group you want to play with.

Icaruzs

ATreeGnome wrote: »

It depends largely on your class and group support in content.

If you are playing a class like magicka DK, which has lots of inherent sustain in this meta, the sustain passives from a Breton will be a lot less valuable than they would be on a magicka sorc, which tends to struggle more with resources.

If you are in a 12 man trial and the supports are providing Wormcult, Hollowfang, and all 4 are wearing Symphony of blades, you will probably have more sustain than you know what to do with on any class, which makes the Breton passives pretty useless.

If you are the kind of player who wants to squeeze out extra DPS by bash weaving, Altmer has the clear advantage given their passive that can return stamina when activating a class ability. It's a small advantage but it could probably be a 500+ DPS increase in some scenarios.

So Altmer clearly has the advantage in "perfect" scenarios and will always have a higher potential DPS output simply due to the fact that sustain has an effective cap on usefulness but damage doesn't.

That said, the sustain and spell resistance that Bretons get make them far more forgiving to play in real scenarios. If you expect to be playing with tanks and healers who aren't top tier and don't optimize their gear for group utility then Breton will often be the better choice. If you prefer solo play, Breton will be the better choice for most classes. If you're learning to play magicka DPS Breton will let you get away with making more mistakes (such as double casting an expensive ability or standing in an AoE).

Both are legitimately good choices (unlike the options stamina DPS have...) so I suggest picking based on the content you want to do and how organized of a group you want to play with.

Why dps stamina strugle with options? Never played a stamina character

John_Falstaff

Icaruzs wrote: »

Why dps stamina strugle with options? Never played a stamina character

Because for a good while already, it's orc or go home.

ATreeGnome

Icaruzs wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

It depends largely on your class and group support in content.

If you are playing a class like magicka DK, which has lots of inherent sustain in this meta, the sustain passives from a Breton will be a lot less valuable than they would be on a magicka sorc, which tends to struggle more with resources.

If you are in a 12 man trial and the supports are providing Wormcult, Hollowfang, and all 4 are wearing Symphony of blades, you will probably have more sustain than you know what to do with on any class, which makes the Breton passives pretty useless.

If you are the kind of player who wants to squeeze out extra DPS by bash weaving, Altmer has the clear advantage given their passive that can return stamina when activating a class ability. It's a small advantage but it could probably be a 500+ DPS increase in some scenarios.

So Altmer clearly has the advantage in "perfect" scenarios and will always have a higher potential DPS output simply due to the fact that sustain has an effective cap on usefulness but damage doesn't.

That said, the sustain and spell resistance that Bretons get make them far more forgiving to play in real scenarios. If you expect to be playing with tanks and healers who aren't top tier and don't optimize their gear for group utility then Breton will often be the better choice. If you prefer solo play, Breton will be the better choice for most classes. If you're learning to play magicka DPS Breton will let you get away with making more mistakes (such as double casting an expensive ability or standing in an AoE).

Both are legitimately good choices (unlike the options stamina DPS have...) so I suggest picking based on the content you want to do and how organized of a group you want to play with.

Why dps stamina strugle with options? Never played a stamina character

There are a variety of reasons, but mostly because Orcs just have higher stat density than other classes. They get 2k max stamina, 258 weapon damage, and 1k max health. Compare this to the next best option, dunmer, with 1.875k max stamina and 258 weapon damage, and 2.3k flame damage resistance. Orcs get slightly more damage, which is fine, but they also get a much better defensive passive. In some cases this even allows them to run max stamina + stamina regen food and get better damage and sustain than other races but still have the same max health.

For an easy illustration, compare Altmer to Dunmer then compare Orc to Dunmer.

Redguard and woodelves can't really leverage their sustain bonuses to close the damage gap. The redguard weapon ability cost reduction is bad unless you are running a weapon spammable, which few classes generally do, and the woodelf dodge roll passive is just too impractical to utilize consistently in PvE.

I don't think anything needs to be said about Khajiit.

Sparr0w

I usually see 2-4k going from Highelf to a Breton, assuming a 90k parse on the 21m with moderate bash weaving.

Sparr0w

Icaruzs wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

It depends largely on your class and group support in content.

If you are playing a class like magicka DK, which has lots of inherent sustain in this meta, the sustain passives from a Breton will be a lot less valuable than they would be on a magicka sorc, which tends to struggle more with resources.

If you are in a 12 man trial and the supports are providing Wormcult, Hollowfang, and all 4 are wearing Symphony of blades, you will probably have more sustain than you know what to do with on any class, which makes the Breton passives pretty useless.

If you are the kind of player who wants to squeeze out extra DPS by bash weaving, Altmer has the clear advantage given their passive that can return stamina when activating a class ability. It's a small advantage but it could probably be a 500+ DPS increase in some scenarios.

So Altmer clearly has the advantage in "perfect" scenarios and will always have a higher potential DPS output simply due to the fact that sustain has an effective cap on usefulness but damage doesn't.

That said, the sustain and spell resistance that Bretons get make them far more forgiving to play in real scenarios. If you expect to be playing with tanks and healers who aren't top tier and don't optimize their gear for group utility then Breton will often be the better choice. If you prefer solo play, Breton will be the better choice for most classes. If you're learning to play magicka DPS Breton will let you get away with making more mistakes (such as double casting an expensive ability or standing in an AoE).

Both are legitimately good choices (unlike the options stamina DPS have...) so I suggest picking based on the content you want to do and how organized of a group you want to play with.

Why dps stamina strugle with options? Never played a stamina character

Stam get passives from medium armour as well as fighters guild which give them weapon damage modifers, so the difference is a lot more noticable there, plus they have less modifiers to their max stamina, so running bi-stat vs regen is a lot less of a difference.

katorga

ATreeGnome wrote: »

Icaruzs wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

It depends largely on your class and group support in content.

If you are playing a class like magicka DK, which has lots of inherent sustain in this meta, the sustain passives from a Breton will be a lot less valuable than they would be on a magicka sorc, which tends to struggle more with resources.

If you are in a 12 man trial and the supports are providing Wormcult, Hollowfang, and all 4 are wearing Symphony of blades, you will probably have more sustain than you know what to do with on any class, which makes the Breton passives pretty useless.

If you are the kind of player who wants to squeeze out extra DPS by bash weaving, Altmer has the clear advantage given their passive that can return stamina when activating a class ability. It's a small advantage but it could probably be a 500+ DPS increase in some scenarios.

So Altmer clearly has the advantage in "perfect" scenarios and will always have a higher potential DPS output simply due to the fact that sustain has an effective cap on usefulness but damage doesn't.

That said, the sustain and spell resistance that Bretons get make them far more forgiving to play in real scenarios. If you expect to be playing with tanks and healers who aren't top tier and don't optimize their gear for group utility then Breton will often be the better choice. If you prefer solo play, Breton will be the better choice for most classes. If you're learning to play magicka DPS Breton will let you get away with making more mistakes (such as double casting an expensive ability or standing in an AoE).

Both are legitimately good choices (unlike the options stamina DPS have...) so I suggest picking based on the content you want to do and how organized of a group you want to play with.

Why dps stamina strugle with options? Never played a stamina character

There are a variety of reasons, but mostly because Orcs just have higher stat density than other classes. They get 2k max stamina, 258 weapon damage, and 1k max health. Compare this to the next best option, dunmer, with 1.875k max stamina and 258 weapon damage, and 2.3k flame damage resistance. Orcs get slightly more damage, which is fine, but they also get a much better defensive passive. In some cases this even allows them to run max stamina + stamina regen food and get better damage and sustain than other races but still have the same max health.

For an easy illustration, compare Altmer to Dunmer then compare Orc to Dunmer.

Redguard and woodelves can't really leverage their sustain bonuses to close the damage gap. The redguard weapon ability cost reduction is bad unless you are running a weapon spammable, which few classes generally do, and the woodelf dodge roll passive is just too impractical to utilize consistently in PvE.

I don't think anything needs to be said about Khajiit.

I prefer Dark Elf on Necro over Orc, that extra magicka/spell damage stat gives a nice boost to the healing pet. Using NMA and DE stats gives a decent boost to magicka heals on a stamina class. That sprint passive though....nice to have.

Magicka, not sure why you would not go High Elf other than the looks.

ATreeGnome

katorga wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

Icaruzs wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

It depends largely on your class and group support in content.

If you are playing a class like magicka DK, which has lots of inherent sustain in this meta, the sustain passives from a Breton will be a lot less valuable than they would be on a magicka sorc, which tends to struggle more with resources.

If you are in a 12 man trial and the supports are providing Wormcult, Hollowfang, and all 4 are wearing Symphony of blades, you will probably have more sustain than you know what to do with on any class, which makes the Breton passives pretty useless.

If you are the kind of player who wants to squeeze out extra DPS by bash weaving, Altmer has the clear advantage given their passive that can return stamina when activating a class ability. It's a small advantage but it could probably be a 500+ DPS increase in some scenarios.

So Altmer clearly has the advantage in "perfect" scenarios and will always have a higher potential DPS output simply due to the fact that sustain has an effective cap on usefulness but damage doesn't.

That said, the sustain and spell resistance that Bretons get make them far more forgiving to play in real scenarios. If you expect to be playing with tanks and healers who aren't top tier and don't optimize their gear for group utility then Breton will often be the better choice. If you prefer solo play, Breton will be the better choice for most classes. If you're learning to play magicka DPS Breton will let you get away with making more mistakes (such as double casting an expensive ability or standing in an AoE).

Both are legitimately good choices (unlike the options stamina DPS have...) so I suggest picking based on the content you want to do and how organized of a group you want to play with.

Why dps stamina strugle with options? Never played a stamina character

There are a variety of reasons, but mostly because Orcs just have higher stat density than other classes. They get 2k max stamina, 258 weapon damage, and 1k max health. Compare this to the next best option, dunmer, with 1.875k max stamina and 258 weapon damage, and 2.3k flame damage resistance. Orcs get slightly more damage, which is fine, but they also get a much better defensive passive. In some cases this even allows them to run max stamina + stamina regen food and get better damage and sustain than other races but still have the same max health.

For an easy illustration, compare Altmer to Dunmer then compare Orc to Dunmer.

Redguard and woodelves can't really leverage their sustain bonuses to close the damage gap. The redguard weapon ability cost reduction is bad unless you are running a weapon spammable, which few classes generally do, and the woodelf dodge roll passive is just too impractical to utilize consistently in PvE.

I don't think anything needs to be said about Khajiit.

I prefer Dark Elf on Necro over Orc, that extra magicka/spell damage stat gives a nice boost to the healing pet. Using NMA and DE stats gives a decent boost to magicka heals on a stamina class. That sprint passive though....nice to have.

Magicka, not sure why you would not go High Elf other than the looks.

I mean, that's valid if that's the way you like to play, and there's nothing wrong with playing that way. In terms of just squeezing out as much damage as you can though, Orc still just has more tools to make it happen.

SidraWillowsky

On a 21 mil with the exact same setup, there's about a 3k DPS difference between a Breton and an Altmer (Altmer is higher) for me on a magden.

My Breton is SO much cuter though, so I'm keeping her (also why she's not a vampire, and no, skins don't help enough).

Asardes

Is bash weaving a thing on magicka nowadays too?

ATreeGnome

Asardes wrote: »

Is bash weaving a thing on magicka nowadays too?

Ever since they made bash damage scale with spell damage and other magicka stats, yes.

Banana

Appearance over dps

dazee

What is "Bash Weaving" sounds pretty bizarre. LA weaving makes sense.

ATreeGnome

dazee wrote: »

What is "Bash Weaving" sounds pretty bizarre. LA weaving makes sense.

You can cancel an ability with a bash in the same way you can cancel a light attack with an ability.

So you would do something like Light Attack > Ability > Bash > Light Attack > Ability > Bash and so on.

It's not as big of a DPS gain as light attack weaving but if you don't need to use stamina for anything else it's basically free damage.

Raisin

ATreeGnome wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

What is "Bash Weaving" sounds pretty bizarre. LA weaving makes sense.

You can cancel an ability with a bash in the same way you can cancel a light attack with an ability.

So you would do something like Light Attack > Ability > Bash > Light Attack > Ability > Bash and so on.

It's not as big of a DPS gain as light attack weaving but if you don't need to use stamina for anything else it's basically free damage.

I also personally find that it makes for really smooth gameplay. The damage makes little difference to me, but it feels real nice.

ZonasArch

Banana wrote: »

Appearance over dps

Always.

Raisin

ZonasArch wrote: »

Banana wrote: »

Appearance over dps

Always.

That reasoning is why I have zero bretons.

ZonasArch

Raisin wrote: »

ZonasArch wrote: »

Banana wrote: »

Appearance over dps

Always.

That reasoning is why I have zero bretons.

Bosmer, BiS for cuteness, followed close by altmer and imperials. I also have extremely cute dunmers, which is kind of a feat if I do say so myself, but those take too much dedication to adjust for cuteness.

But bosmer... I'll take another three waves of racial nerfs and I'll still play with that one.

Raisin

ZonasArch wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

ZonasArch wrote: »

Banana wrote: »

Appearance over dps

Always.

That reasoning is why I have zero bretons.

Bosmer, BiS for cuteness, followed close by altmer and imperials. I also have extremely cute dunmers, which is kind of a feat if I do say so myself, but those take too much dedication to adjust for cuteness.

But bosmer... I'll take another three waves of racial nerfs and I'll still play with that one.

You're stronger than I am. I love creating bosmer....and then parking them to hold my stuff while I marvel over how nice they look from the character select screen.

ecru

the actual difference is like 1.5%, i wouldn't worry too much about it. the easier sustain on breton is much better in general unless you're in a very good trials group with people wearing sustain sets.

MashmalloMan

Bretons make Wood Elves look like trash for a sustain race. They get +100 regen and -8% cost to all mag skills. Wood Elf only get +258. Redguard just sucks, if we continue to get more unique in class/guild/world abilities to use, they get less and less benefit out of their passive.

1 year later and many races are worse than they were after the revamp.

The diff between Breton and High Elf is a lot smaller vs All the stam races and Orc.

xinecallaw

I switched from breton to high elf a while back and got between 2-3k increase in dps, I only did this change because I noticed I was not having any issues with sustain and wanted to try increasing my spell damage. So, if you have no issue with sustain then I would suggest going high elf, but if sustain is an issue then I would stick with breton since having no resources means your stuck doing alot of heavy attacks which means you will be losing dps

ATreeGnome

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Bretons make Wood Elves look like trash for a sustain race. They get +100 regen and -8% cost to all mag skills. Wood Elf only get +258. Redguard just sucks, if we continue to get more unique in class/guild/world abilities to use, they get less and less benefit out of their passive.

1 year later and many races are worse than they were after the revamp.

The diff between Breton and High Elf is a lot smaller vs All the stam races and Orc.

It's even worse when you take in to account the fact that all stamina abilities already have a lower base cost, meaning that stamina races need less sustain to begin with. The continual addition of support sets that give resources doesn't help much either.

WrathOfInnos

In most cases Breton will do more sustained DPS, while Altmer will have more burst until they run out of Magicka. If you manage to sustain on Altmer without requiring regen food, recovery enchants or heavy attacks, then it’s usually about 4% more DPS than Breton (maybe 5% with bash weaving).

The main difference is the 258 Spell Damage. This is equivalent to Major Courage, so you can easily check how much difference it makes by testing DPS with and without a healer providing Olorime.

katorga

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

In most cases Breton will do more sustained DPS, while Altmer will have more burst until they run out of Magicka. If you manage to sustain on Altmer without requiring regen food, recovery enchants or heavy attacks, then it’s usually about 4% more DPS than Breton (maybe 5% with bash weaving).

The main difference is the 258 Spell Damage. This is equivalent to Major Courage, so you can easily check how much difference it makes by testing DPS with and without a healer providing Olorime.

Is the Breton cost reduction passive enough to allow you to run three damage sets and all damage glyphs?

If yes, it is better than Altmer. If no, it is not.

PVP, no question, Altmer stamina regen is sweet.

Icaruzs

katorga wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

In most cases Breton will do more sustained DPS, while Altmer will have more burst until they run out of Magicka. If you manage to sustain on Altmer without requiring regen food, recovery enchants or heavy attacks, then it’s usually about 4% more DPS than Breton (maybe 5% with bash weaving).

The main difference is the 258 Spell Damage. This is equivalent to Major Courage, so you can easily check how much difference it makes by testing DPS with and without a healer providing Olorime.

Is the Breton cost reduction passive enough to allow you to run three damage sets and all damage glyphs?

If yes, it is better than Altmer. If no, it is not.

PVP, no question, Altmer stamina regen is sweet.

I use xynode's easy sorc on my breton mag sorc, the build allows to run 3 damage set and dmg on jewlery. I think it can work with altmer, but even with a heavy attack based build, it will a litle hard to sustain with alter, and if you want to use daedrick tomb (which is expensive but very powerfull) will be even harder.