Stamina Healing - Some Thoughts

ketsparrowhawk

Been playing my stamden as a stam healer lately.. mostly in BG's. It's a lot of fun but I'd like to see a few changes to make stam healing work a little better.

1. Buff Echoing Vigor. Compared to Radiating Regen, on characters with roughly equivalent stats, Echoing Vigor heals for about half as much. And about 50% less than Grand Healing.
2. Allow Circle of Preservation morph to be cast at a target location. OR increase the radius to 10+ meters.. or both! Right now it is very difficult to place it in a useful spot.. especially in PVP.
3. Buff existing, and add new "resource agnostic" healing sets, such as Redistributor. Could be a great stam healing option if it wasn't so weak. Reduce the cooldown, allow it to hit multiple targets, increase the healing, etc. Would love to see more similar support sets added. Coldharbor's favorite is a good example, but not quite the set for me.

k thanks bye!

Raisin

4. Give stamina healers the option to provide at least some of the useful buffs/debuffs to group that are standard in mag heal toolset.

ketsparrowhawk

Raisin wrote: »

4. Give stamina healers the option to provide at least some of the useful buffs/debuffs to group that are standard in mag heal toolset.

Indeed. Major Courage on Powerful Assault would be nice.

VoidCommander

It would be nice to see some sets/skills get tailored to stamina healers. Right now, it is difficult to resist kicking a stamina healer right off the bat in vet dlc dungeons. Stamina just doesn’t pack the same punch as magicka based healers.

Iskiab

Definitely agree about circle of protection. The minor protection has a lot of overlap with other abilities so it’s debatable how good it is, but the things that kills the ability for me is it’s always placed at your feet and the area’s small.

Echoing vigor isn’t as strong as radiating regen too, but it hits 6 people which is decent.

What’s your build? I played a stamwarden healer as an alt for a bit, it’s a style where your spec matters a LOT and really effects performance.

Ahtu

VoidCommander wrote: »

It would be nice to see some sets/skills get tailored to stamina healers. Right now, it is difficult to resist kicking a stamina healer right off the bat in vet dlc dungeons. Stamina just doesn’t pack the same punch as magicka based healers.

There are enough sets tailored to stamina healers for vet dungeons, trials, and PvP in the game if you look hard enough. A stamina healer who knows their class can meet and exceed magicka healing. Don't judge people until you see what they can offer first as you will be missing out on a unique and beautiful experience.

As for OP's initial post, I think that stamina healing is in a good spot right now and does not need any buffs. If you commit to stamina healing and don't relent, you will find that it can be stronger than magicka with the right build. It only recently became viable in PvE after the orb and blood altar changes as the magicka cost was reduced to a manageable amount.

ketsparrowhawk

Iskiab wrote: »

Definitely agree about circle of protection. The minor protection has a lot of overlap with other abilities so it’s debatable how good it is, but the things that kills the ability for me is it’s always placed at your feet and the area’s small.

Echoing vigor isn’t as strong as radiating regen too, but it hits 6 people which is decent.

What’s your build? I played a stamwarden healer as an alt for a bit, it’s a style where your spec matters a LOT and really effects performance.

Right now I'm using Powerful Assault, Hircine's, and Troll King. Mainly using it in BG's. I know Hircine's isn't the best, but it's one of the few sets that gives some kind of group buff and also gives me decent stam stats. Thought about trying Ebon instead of Hircine (on jewelry + weps). Ebon and minor toughness could be a pretty nice group buff! It's a double-bow setup with a basic offensive front bar (sub assault, magnum shot, silver shards) for a little supplemental damage as well. Trying to keep magicka skills to a minimum so as to preserve mag for maximum shimmering shield uptime. Still experimenting but I'm enjoying it quite a lot! Suggestions welcome!

UESP link: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=215785 - you'll notice no circle of preservation atm. I don't feel like I get much out of Blood Altar either but it's at least easy to use.

ketsparrowhawk

Ahtu wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

It would be nice to see some sets/skills get tailored to stamina healers. Right now, it is difficult to resist kicking a stamina healer right off the bat in vet dlc dungeons. Stamina just doesn’t pack the same punch as magicka based healers.

There are enough sets tailored to stamina healers for vet dungeons, trials, and PvP in the game if you look hard enough. A stamina healer who knows their class can meet and exceed magicka healing. Don't judge people until you see what they can offer first as you will be missing out on a unique and beautiful experience.

As for OP's initial post, I think that stamina healing is in a good spot right now and does not need any buffs. If you commit to stamina healing and don't relent, you will find that it can be stronger than magicka with the right build. It only recently became viable in PvE after the orb and blood altar changes as the magicka cost was reduced to a manageable amount.

Can you share this "right build" that exceeds a typical magicka healer?

Nevasca

They will never buff echoing again because when it was strong, people just run 10 dds and had them cast echoing for healing and they just forego healers.

ketsparrowhawk

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

They will never buff echoing again because when it was strong, people just run 10 dds and had them cast echoing for healing and they just forego healers.

There is a middle ground. It could be put on par with radiating regen and be fine I think.

stevenyaub16_ESO

only way this would work is to have resto stam morphs. Buffing current stamina heals will just lead to stamDDs being way too strong and further negate the need for healers.

VoidCommander

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Can you share this "right build" that exceeds a typical magicka healer?

I'm with him on this. I would love to see this stamina healing build that outperforms magicka healing setups.

Iskiab

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Definitely agree about circle of protection. The minor protection has a lot of overlap with other abilities so it’s debatable how good it is, but the things that kills the ability for me is it’s always placed at your feet and the area’s small.

Echoing vigor isn’t as strong as radiating regen too, but it hits 6 people which is decent.

What’s your build? I played a stamwarden healer as an alt for a bit, it’s a style where your spec matters a LOT and really effects performance.

Right now I'm using Powerful Assault, Hircine's, and Troll King. Mainly using it in BG's. I know Hircine's isn't the best, but it's one of the few sets that gives some kind of group buff and also gives me decent stam stats. Thought about trying Ebon instead of Hircine (on jewelry + weps). Ebon and minor toughness could be a pretty nice group buff! It's a double-bow setup with a basic offensive front bar (sub assault, magnum shot, silver shards) for a little supplemental damage as well. Trying to keep magicka skills to a minimum so as to preserve mag for maximum shimmering shield uptime. Still experimenting but I'm enjoying it quite a lot! Suggestions welcome!

UESP link: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=215785 - you'll notice no circle of preservation atm. I don't feel like I get much out of Blood Altar either but it's at least easy to use.

Looks good, couple of things I’d suggest trying:

- maybe drop hircine’s for a weapon damage set like Briarheart (I like the crit on that set, one of the best healing stats).. Medium builds can get some really high weapon damage these days giving like 4k vigor ticks. I think more than one support set tanks your healing values too much
- you might be over-sustaining a bit. I’d try more heavy attack weaving and drop your sustain a bit, I always liked the swift + stam sustain, 2x infused weapon damage combo.
- you mentioned using less mag abilities so you can use shimmer more, but Green Lotus is worth it. Getting crit from an ability will let you use tri-stat pots for better sustain, where the weapon crit is a must to max healing
- I went 1H-6M instead of 7M. but I’m not sure what’s best

Something like this; https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=217452

Ahtu

Let's play some PvP or PvE PC NA and I'll show you the power of stamina healing.

ValindorPinebrook

VoidCommander wrote: »

It would be nice to see some sets/skills get tailored to stamina healers. Right now, it is difficult to resist kicking a stamina healer right off the bat in vet dlc dungeons. Stamina just doesn’t pack the same punch as magicka based healers.

As a main Warden stamina healer, I can agree that there is usually a discussion among the others in the group. Half the time people think that I am a dps trying to pose as a healer. That being said, I have cleared all vet DLC dungeons non-hardmode and several of them with hardmode. Vet Bloodroot was perhaps one of the more challenging runs, but I feel that every dungeon is doable.

Ahtu

What if I told you that a stamina healer cleared vBRP?

ketsparrowhawk

Ahtu wrote: »

What if I told you that a stamina healer cleared vBRP?

I have no doubts that a stamina healer can be effective and viable in all sorts of content.

My disbelief is that a stamina healer can be STRONGER than a magicka healer, as you claim.

Would love a build description.. gear/skills/etc.

VoidCommander

ValindorPinebrook wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

It would be nice to see some sets/skills get tailored to stamina healers. Right now, it is difficult to resist kicking a stamina healer right off the bat in vet dlc dungeons. Stamina just doesn’t pack the same punch as magicka based healers.

As a main Warden stamina healer, I can agree that there is usually a discussion among the others in the group. Half the time people think that I am a dps trying to pose as a healer. That being said, I have cleared all vet DLC dungeons non-hardmode and several of them with hardmode. Vet Bloodroot was perhaps one of the more challenging runs, but I feel that every dungeon is doable.

That is a relief to hear. How do your debuff/buff contributions compare to a magicka class? I am curious.

Iskiab

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Ahtu wrote: »

What if I told you that a stamina healer cleared vBRP?

I have no doubts that a stamina healer can be effective and viable in all sorts of content.

My disbelief is that a stamina healer can be STRONGER than a magicka healer, as you claim.

Would love a build description.. gear/skills/etc.

A good ball group always has a stamhealer in it imo. Powerful assault is a unique buff for one, for two without a stamhealer a group Ult dump can be catastrophic if used with DK root, negate, Colossus, Nova, etc... stamhealing helps relieve pressure.

I’ve been in some keeps where defenders had blanketed the front flag all the way to the back and posters, pretty sure without a stamhealer(s) we’d all have died.

Ahtu

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Ahtu wrote: »

What if I told you that a stamina healer cleared vBRP?

I have no doubts that a stamina healer can be effective and viable in all sorts of content.

My disbelief is that a stamina healer can be STRONGER than a magicka healer, as you claim.

Would love a build description.. gear/skills/etc.

I have found the build that makes stamina healing more powerful than magic healing. You'll just have to take my word for it. I'm not going to post the build here because I like being unique and don't want people copying me in PvP.

I'd encourage you to keep trying because in the end it will be worth the effort.

Tessitura

So, I got a counter question, why should stamina keep up with magicka builds for healing? You know its okay that some build types out perform others, if you want to heal really well, then make and play a healer, why does it got to be stamina? Why does it -have- to keep up? Personally I am beginning to wonder why we have these separate resource bars at this point. I don't mean this insultingly either, I just don't get why our game has to be so homogenized.

Thraben

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Been playing my stamden as a stam healer lately.. mostly in BG's. It's a lot of fun but I'd like to see a few changes to make stam healing work a little better.

1. Buff Echoing Vigor. Compared to Radiating Regen, on characters with roughly equivalent stats, Echoing Vigor heals for about half as much. And about 50% less than Grand Healing.
2. Allow Circle of Preservation morph to be cast at a target location. OR increase the radius to 10+ meters.. or both! Right now it is very difficult to place it in a useful spot.. especially in PVP.
3. Buff existing, and add new "resource agnostic" healing sets, such as Redistributor. Could be a great stam healing option if it wasn't so weak. Reduce the cooldown, allow it to hit multiple targets, increase the healing, etc. Would love to see more similar support sets added. Coldharbor's favorite is a good example, but not quite the set for me.

k thanks bye!

Though your points are valid, even more stamina healing options a not desireable from a game balance perspective, because in PvP Stam healers are already stronger than Mag ones who are mainly kept around for Transmutation/ Gossamer.

Just imagine groups with Stamwardens who can actually play their class instead of steel tornadoing relentlessly while their group dies in a Negate. There is no real counterplay against competent wardens who can heal, and they are still able to do all the things a Noobwarden can do.

ketsparrowhawk

Tessitura wrote: »

So, I got a counter question, why should stamina keep up with magicka builds for healing? You know its okay that some build types out perform others, if you want to heal really well, then make and play a healer, why does it got to be stamina? Why does it -have- to keep up? Personally I am beginning to wonder why we have these separate resource bars at this point. I don't mean this insultingly either, I just don't get why our game has to be so homogenized.

I get your point. I have multiple magicka healers already and do enjoy them quite a lot. I just like the uniqueness and novelty of a stam healer. I don't necessarily think they need to be just as strong as mag healers. Just making a few suggestions here that would make them work a bit better. As long as there is no stam equivalent to a resto staff I don't think stam healers stand a chance of keeping up (despite what others on this thread claim).

The resource numbers are still a major factor in how you play the character. Someone who is speed capped with 30k+ stamina is going to have a very different playstyle than someone with 15k stamina and slow movement.

@Ahtu That is convenient. What metrics are you basing this on? Like, are you better than mag healers as in providing more/better buffs? Better buff/debuff uptimes? Stronger heals per second? Stronger burst heal potential?

Ahtu

Stamina healing provided stronger HPS and burst healing than their magicka counterparts by far. They can provide buffs that a magicka healer can't which, while aren't as good on their own, compliment them in trials. The only drawback is no minor berserk from combat prayer, which usually isn't slotted by healers in four mans anyways, and magicka healers can provide it for 6/8 DPS in trials so only two DPS will be missing out.

Ahtu

@ketsparrowhawk

Iskiab

Ahtu wrote: »

Stamina healing provided stronger HPS and burst healing than their magicka counterparts by far. They can provide buffs that a magicka healer can't which, while aren't as good on their own, compliment them in trials. The only drawback is no minor berserk from combat prayer, which usually isn't slotted by healers in four mans anyways, and magicka healers can provide it for 6/8 DPS in trials so only two DPS will be missing out.

Are you sure it’s actually higher? Healers usually wear support sets and could double their HPS by wearing a more max-stat setup.

For example if you wanted to max HPS as a magblade let’s say, you’d wear a set similar to a magdps with mother’s sorrow and a max stat set. Healers (mag ones at least) typically run support sets instead because HPS isn’t as important as raid dps.

The only difference between a magdps and maghealer to max output is traits and CPs.

Kadoin

lol buff stamina even more? Are you serious?

FrancisCrawford

Ahtu wrote: »

Stamina healing provided stronger HPS and burst healing than their magicka counterparts by far.

Seriously??

What kind of "burst healing" are you talking about? I presume it's AoE rather than single-target and short-HoT rather than single-GCD burst, so that it's Echoing Vigor. That's the only stamina-scaling heal-other I can think of that doesn't have a close magicka counterpart.

If not, what am I forgetting?

I have trouble with the stronger-HPS-by-far claim as well. Magicka has a variety of HoTs than stamina doesn't have, and -- again unless I'm forgetting something -- Vigor is the only vice-versa.

oxygen_thief

Kadoin wrote: »

lol buff stamina even more? Are you serious?

yup just ban magicka users already

ketsparrowhawk

Ahtu wrote: »

Stamina healing provided stronger HPS and burst healing than their magicka counterparts by far.

I don't believe you. Not saying the heals aren't ample, but if a mag healer wanted to spec for max HPS and burst heals, there is no way a stam build could keep up. Prove me wrong.

Iskiab

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Ahtu wrote: »

Stamina healing provided stronger HPS and burst healing than their magicka counterparts by far.

I don't believe you. Not saying the heals aren't ample, but if a mag healer wanted to spec for max HPS and burst heals, there is no way a stam build could keep up. Prove me wrong.

I’m pretty sure he means pve where stacking in circle of protection is viable. For burst healing all stamina get is the warden stam heal, add bone shield for major vitality in a max stat setup and it’d probably be easy to hit 20k crits.

Mag don’t go max stat not because it’s not higher tooltips, but do you really need everything to be a full heal when you can increase raid dps instead? In pvp all that’s really stopping stamina from being just as good as mag is circle of protection’s small area really. If circle of protection was like healing springs stam would probably be just as strong or stronger than mag, just because 5m gives you really high crit and weapon damage, add DW daggers and you can get higher crit than mag.