Make tanks & healers more popular

Nevasca

dazee wrote: »

They should make tanking more desirable by allowing endgame tanks to do more than completely negligible damage while tanking.

Seriously, most successful MMOs I've played have tanks doing a significant fraction of dps damage, anywhere from 30-60% depending on game. Damage is the single most important part of gameplay since no boss is going to go down without it.

Everyone should be capable of some contribution.

OP is talking about dungeon queue so not really end game.

You can definitly spec for damage as a tank even on vet dlcs. A warden tank with vMA bow + Grippiling shards does decent aoe damage, if you wanna be selfish even Artic Blast does decent damage. I've seen combat metrics with >20k dps on trash with those skills alone on like 5-7 adds on a traditional tank setup. If I spec for it with proc sets, say Aegis Caller or Blight seeds + something like Frozen Watcher or Doylemish + Zaan I am certain I could pull decent dps, (for a tank), hell even Alkosh does a decent amount of damage and it's the most traditional tank set at this point.

Sure, on trials you are a buff *** because buffing 8 dps is mlre valuable than doing +10k dps, but then we arent talking about pugs anymore.

Hamiltonmath

One of the problems I see is that tanks and healers are generally pretty poor at their roles, or are at least, confining themselves into their roles. Tanks, in double sword and board, holding block for the entirety of a fight, taunting every 12 seconds and then complaining about dps. Healers using barriers on trash fights when everyone is at full health. In an effective group, dps and tanks take care of themselves heal wise, tanks debuff and buff.

daemonios

Hamiltonmath wrote: »

One of the problems I see is that tanks and healers are generally pretty poor at their roles, or are at least, confining themselves into their roles. Tanks, in double sword and board, holding block for the entirety of a fight, taunting every 12 seconds and then complaining about dps. Healers using barriers on trash fights when everyone is at full health. In an effective group, dps and tanks take care of themselves heal wise, tanks debuff and buff.

I don't think I've ever seen a tank permanently holding block. Especially in vet DLC dungeons and trials with longer and more challenging fights, that would end in a dead tank due to lack of stamina to block, and a group wipe. A tank's main taunt also applies major fracture and major breach, greatly increasing the dd's effectiveness.

Tanks can contribute in a lot of other ways via ultimates and group buffs/enemy debuffs. A tank isn't specced for damage unless they're doing easier content that doesn't require one, in which case they might go hybrid or dd build. It's a waste of resources for a tank-specced tank to try to get decent dps. They and the group are better off having them buff team mates, whose base damage is already much higher than the tank's, debuff baddies, and crowd controlling trash to make them go down faster to aoe. If you expect the tank in your group to pull any sort of relevant dps, the problem is you.

As for tanks and dps "taking care of themselves heal wise", that is a waste of resources that could otherwise be put to better use buffing, debuffing and doing crowd control (in the case of the tank), or dpsing (in the case of DDs). If you expect a DD to spam a shield or a self heal because the healer, who has far lower base damage, is busy pretending to deal damage, don't be surprised if the group dps is trash. Yes, healers can add some damage to the group. A well-specced DD that's not busy self-healing can do much more.

thadjarvis

I would agree that DD that doesn't die essentially did a no death, but the achievement is for the team. Supports though: one of the primary jobs of a support is to the keep the DDs alive. Eg, missing a taunt that leads to a one-shot.

Agenericname

Winstonshead wrote: »

Hello.
What do you think about making no-death achievements not for group (4 players), but solo?
I mean, I go vet dungeon, example vCoS, and finish it with 0 deaths, but my teammate has 2 deaths, and in spite of this I get no-death achievement.
I think it will make tanks and healers more popular.

They're a team effort and the achievement should reflect that.

A tank can easily survive in vBRF on a no death, even with all 3 attros out if they block the anvil crackers. If the tank loses taunt on one, the DD or healer will likely die. Who's fault is that?

VCoS when you get pinned as the tank, who bashes/interrupts?

If the ghosts aren't cleansed in vFH who will die? Who cleanses them?

Chained in vBRF?

There is far too much dependancy on coordination to separate the achievements and it would remove at least part of the incentive if they were.

TheGreatBlackBear

I might get some flack for saying this but the majority of support players seems to be people who simply can't hack it as a dps at the highest level.

During this Dragonhold patch everyone and their dog is a healer and to a lesser extent a tank. So no the roles don't need to be made more attractive. There will always be people who will roll healer or tank because outside of that they don't get into any kind of group.

dazee

If you think you need more than a few different sets to be "Viable" as healer for all content, you're pretty dumb.

OPTIMAL maybe, but viable? please in a decent group you can run a lot of things.

dazee

FierceSam wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

Tanking in ESO I find to be extremely unsatisfying and lame. I do heal but only becuase as healer I can actually do far more damage, while also doing everything a healer in ESO should do, than I can while doing the same as a tank.

As healer I usually do over 10k dps on bosses in vet dungeons reliably, while keeping people alive and throwing out synergies and buffing the group/debuffing boss.

as tank, thats a struggle. ESO sword and board is underwhelming.. and thats a very big understatement.

If you measure everything by dps, then everyone’s a dd and you’ll never understand tanking or healing as separate tasks.

Healing and Tanking are seperate tasks only to an extent. it is the primary objective of healer role to keep peoples HP from reaching zero, to buff group, and drop synergies. it is the primary objective of tank role to grab aggro, hold it, mitigate damage, and buff group and position enemies.

But if you think they should be focusing ONLY on those things, you are misunderstanding what makes the gameplay fun and interesting.

Healer should never be ONLY about support, neither should tanking. DPS should be contributed by all as much as possible to the best ability of each role. DPS is the most basic part of the game and it is required for all content, everyone should contribute a bit to it.

DPS role is just the one which focuses most on damage as the primary goal, rather than support or aggro.

It's not black and white "Healers heal, Tanks Tank, DPS DPS" and it never was, that's lame and boring.

idk

Winstonshead wrote: »

Hello.
What do you think about making no-death achievements not for group (4 players), but solo?
I mean, I go vet dungeon, example vCoS, and finish it with 0 deaths, but my teammate has 2 deaths, and in spite of this I get no-death achievement.
I think it will make tanks and healers more popular.

How does this make tanking and healing more popular?

Further, the boss one-shots a dps because the tank loses aggro is a prime example that this is a bad idea for any reason.

Kombinator

Aznarb wrote: »

Kombinator wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

As a heal main, let me change something in the title @op :
We don't need to be more popular, we need to be more needed, that different.

Most of the content can be done w/o healer or tank. And some only with one of these two.
That why most people stop playing these role.
The more you get good and your team too, the more you feel useless and slot more and more dps instead of healing skill.
That stupid. But it's how it is.

Well switching from heal to a medicore dd is just switching skills. With addon it's 3 clicks. Tank is a bit more difficult, because to do decent damage you need to switch your entire gear at least.

Which came to the problem of popularity. As healer doing damage, or going overworld is simple. Just a bit more skills, and there you go. With tank you need to switch out your gear, and that means 12 to 14 extra slot used in the bag. Or suffer the super slow overworld questing. Anyone who isn't dungeon 100% of the time are suffer for going tank as role.

I think, that some DLC vet. dungeons should be nerfed closer to the hard base-game level, and a new difficulty should be introduced to make ALL dungeons hard for those who like that way. And by hard i mean REALLY hard. In most of the old dungeons the problem is not the lack of mechanics. It's the lack of punishment for not doing it. As tank i don't give a ****k about any aoe in any base-game dungeon. I literary facetank it, and it works. Usually not even health loss with Templar.

Not about switching skill, it's about be really useful.
A healer shouldn't have to dps and should be very busy at healing/buff/debuff/sent ressource.
But in this game, only ressource are needed, the reste can be done by DDs w/o much lose, well if DD are magika they even can throw orb since the dps from it is pretty good.
Doesn't matter to have olo or berserk minor when you can have a 3rd DDs dealing 80k+

Their is a reason why some hard achievement on this game are do easily by 3 DPS + 1 tank (like vbrp unchained for exemple).
The problem is not about difficulty, it's more about how the game is design in it's core.

My point is, that as healer you can be useful wether your power as healer truly needed, or not. The weakest dungeons don't need a healer at all with a good tank. DD on the other hand is something, that "never enough". Even if your group does one million dps on vet. you can still use more for even faster progress.

FierceSam wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

Tanking in ESO I find to be extremely unsatisfying and lame. I do heal but only becuase as healer I can actually do far more damage, while also doing everything a healer in ESO should do, than I can while doing the same as a tank.

As healer I usually do over 10k dps on bosses in vet dungeons reliably, while keeping people alive and throwing out synergies and buffing the group/debuffing boss.

as tank, thats a struggle. ESO sword and board is underwhelming.. and thats a very big understatement.

If you measure everything by dps, then everyone’s a dd and you’ll never understand tanking or healing as separate tasks.

As a tank, if you’re doing more than 3% of the damage, it’s your dds who aren’t performing. Tanks aren’t about damage, they’re about control and fight management. They’re about putting the boss and his minions where they want them, holding their attention, debuffing them and buffing the group. None of that is measurable by dps.

Similarly healers are about helping the group stay alive, debuffing the boss, buffing the group and enabling the dds to focus on damage, not shields or heals. A dd who has slotted a self heal is playing solo content because they’re doing less damage than they could. Again your healer’s skill isn’t going to be reflected by their dps, it’s much more likely to be reflected by the 30% damage bonus they give their dds. And, heavy attacks aside, a healer who’s doing damage isn’t doing their role effectively as they’re not pushing out a buff, heal or debuff while they’re attacking.

I think you are missing his point. In lower vet. dungeons you don't need to heal constantly. Sometimes not at all. In those cases it's better, if you deal damage.

Not to mention, that if you decide to go overworld for any reason you don't need to change a whole gear to do decent damage. Switch out skills, and you are more than enough DD for it. Playing with tank gear after going a chapter as stamina dd is damn frustrating.

Kombinator

dazee wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

Tanking in ESO I find to be extremely unsatisfying and lame. I do heal but only becuase as healer I can actually do far more damage, while also doing everything a healer in ESO should do, than I can while doing the same as a tank.

As healer I usually do over 10k dps on bosses in vet dungeons reliably, while keeping people alive and throwing out synergies and buffing the group/debuffing boss.

as tank, thats a struggle. ESO sword and board is underwhelming.. and thats a very big understatement.

If you measure everything by dps, then everyone’s a dd and you’ll never understand tanking or healing as separate tasks.

Healing and Tanking are seperate tasks only to an extent. it is the primary objective of healer role to keep peoples HP from reaching zero, to buff group, and drop synergies. it is the primary objective of tank role to grab aggro, hold it, mitigate damage, and buff group and position enemies.

But if you think they should be focusing ONLY on those things, you are misunderstanding what makes the gameplay fun and interesting.

Healer should never be ONLY about support, neither should tanking. DPS should be contributed by all as much as possible to the best ability of each role. DPS is the most basic part of the game and it is required for all content, everyone should contribute a bit to it.

DPS role is just the one which focuses most on damage as the primary goal, rather than support or aggro.

It's not black and white "Healers heal, Tanks Tank, DPS DPS" and it never was, that's lame and boring.

Well i would certanily approve, if i could go world content good without changing the gear as tank main. As healer stuff is easy. Switch skills, and good to go. Your spellpower is more, than viable for it.

jircris11

Winstonshead wrote: »

Hello.
What do you think about making no-death achievements not for group (4 players), but solo?
I mean, I go vet dungeon, example vCoS, and finish it with 0 deaths, but my teammate has 2 deaths, and in spite of this I get no-death achievement.
I think it will make tanks and healers more popular.

It's not a matter of making them popular. Most ppl want to run dps, it's how every mmo has been. Bug numbers make those with fragil egos feel better (not all players mind you, normally the elitist ones) where tank and healing is an under appreciated job that gets blamed the most. So it takes a special kind d if crazy to want to play those rolls.

xaraan

Winstonshead wrote: »

Hello.
What do you think about making no-death achievements not for group (4 players), but solo?
I mean, I go vet dungeon, example vCoS, and finish it with 0 deaths, but my teammate has 2 deaths, and in spite of this I get no-death achievement.
I think it will make tanks and healers more popular.

This would put a lot more pressure on them as well.

Dying as a DD b/c of tanking or healing issues, you'll have people throwing fits (obv in forums b/c that's what we do) but also toward other players. Sure, you have some DDs that are just dumb and get themselves dead, but just as often it's b/c of bad support.

The base purpose of 4-man dungeons and trials is that they are team experiences. You succeed and fail together. That comes with the good and bad.

And I promise you there are just as many players that have been carried by the rest of the group being great and gotten achievements from those runs as there have been players that get the short end of the stick and get stuck with a bad team. You just don't see them complaining about being carried.

dazee

I think you are missing his point. In lower vet. dungeons you don't need to heal constantly. Sometimes not at all. In those cases it's better, if you deal damage.

Not to mention, that if you decide to go overworld for any reason you don't need to change a whole gear to do decent damage. Switch out skills, and you are more than enough DD for it. Playing with tank gear after going a chapter as stamina dd is damn frustrating.

Not only that but even in vet trials you have enough healing downtime to toss down a dot or two.

Drdeath20

I would love to tank. Heck even though i have very little experience i would love to tank all the toughest stuff. My problems are.

1. I dont have the time to level up an alt to get enough skill points.
2. I would want to try everything on that tank and its just improbable because i play as a templar. While it might slimly be possible to complete everything as a tankplar it, trying to get 11 other people to play with you on it would be half the battle.
3. Having to learn another class is something i have very little desire or patience for.