Make tanks & healers more popular

Winstonshead

Hello.
What do you think about making no-death achievements not for group (4 players), but solo?
I mean, I go vet dungeon, example vCoS, and finish it with 0 deaths, but my teammate has 2 deaths, and in spite of this I get no-death achievement.
I think it will make tanks and healers more popular.

Dusk_Coven

They should instead make swapping roles easier. Three profiles per toon where you can get complete attribute/skill/CP/gear swap (including gear set storage), with the intention that people have a tank, healer, and dps build each.
NWO and FFXIV already have something like this for free.

Sure you can make tanks and healers more important in, say, a dungeon. But they will still be annoying to play in solo content.

mikikatze

Winstonshead wrote: »

I think it will make tanks and healers more popular.

How so? 🤔

Winstonshead

mikikatze wrote: »

How so? 🤔

Tanks and healers die much less often than DD

Bradyfjord

What makes tanking/healing 'less popular' (imo) is that these roles carry responsibilities to the group beyond personal performance. Healers and tanks need to have more situational awareness than dps. Not saying dps players don't pay attention, but they don't feel the same level of responsibility to the group's members as tanks/healers.

I enjoy tanking, but I feel stressed out every time I look at the random group finder tool. I have never had a bad group where I was blamed or whatever. But I still stress out until I hit the button. That (for me) is what makes tanking/healing 'less popular'. Premades are more comfortable, because we talk it out before going in.

dazee

They should make tanking more desirable by allowing endgame tanks to do more than completely negligible damage while tanking.

Seriously, most successful MMOs I've played have tanks doing a significant fraction of dps damage, anywhere from 30-60% depending on game. Damage is the single most important part of gameplay since no boss is going to go down without it.

Everyone should be capable of some contribution.

FierceSam

The whole point of the no death (and speed runs) is that it’s about how you collectively perform as a team. I’d hate to see that change.

I’ve done some with total PUGs, where it’s been almost accidental to get the no death or speed runs, some where I’ve had to work hard with a great group to deliberately go for a no death run (in DLC dungeons for example). In all cases the sense of satisfaction at the end was great.

One thing I would like is to be notified if a run was a no death or speed run once you had got the achievements as this would be a nice thing to know.

In terms of making healers and tanks more popular - they’re always being asked for in groups in my guild and are highly respected. We love them. If you meant “how do we encourage more players to play healers and tanks” I have some thoughts

- don’t be so dismissive about them in the forums. If you keep saying “you don’t need tanks and healers in dungeons “ don’t be amazed when players can’t be bothered to learn or play these roles

- don’t play as a fake tank or healer in a PUG (what you do in the privacy of your own 4 player group is up to you)

- don’t play the “blame the healer/tank” in dungeons

- ZOS should make it easier to swap out skills, equipment and CP and have better inventory to encourage players to have tank and healer (and PvP) characters.

- ZOS should devise some way to promote and reward tanking and healing activities in both dungeons and the overland game. At present you essentially progress by being a dd and killing things. You get no points, XP or progression by being good at tanking or healing, let alone titles or achievements.

It’s challenging, rewarding and fun playing as a tank or a healer. Every player should try playing both.

dazee

Tanking in ESO I find to be extremely unsatisfying and lame. I do heal but only becuase as healer I can actually do far more damage, while also doing everything a healer in ESO should do, than I can while doing the same as a tank.

As healer I usually do over 10k dps on bosses in vet dungeons reliably, while keeping people alive and throwing out synergies and buffing the group/debuffing boss.

as tank, thats a struggle. ESO sword and board is underwhelming.. and thats a very big understatement.

llande

No, don't do it. Would make a ton of fake tans. As if majority of fake healers in pugs (who are DPS with resto backbared at best) are not enough.

dazee

Yeah the achievement method won't work, you have to address the core issue, most obvious with tanks in ESO. it's just not fun for a vast majority of people. why? Becuase they feel WEAK. it doesn't matter if they can never die, if they can't take on anything alone and win within the hour.

Septimus_Magna

I agree tanking is unpopular but I think there's a different reason behind it. The problem its harder to swap between tank-DD than healer-DD. Often tanks have invested points into health and set up CP to compliment tanking and that completely ruins the ability to decent dps. Questing is doable as tank with DD gear equipped because most mobs die if you sneeze at them. Dailies with world bosses etc can be done but depending on you class it can get tedious.

The damage output when tanking is very poor but thats probably due to PVP balance choices which I can understand.

colossalvoids

I believe the only good way to promote support specs and try kill off fake roles in dungeons is to introduce spec swaps. So by default you might have 1-2 additional ones so instead of fake tank queue you can actually swap to tank with one button press which isn't problematic at all. Or you are a tank/heal but you're not really needed rn so you can easily become viable by a swap to dd. But thats just my thoughts.

Other than that only special mechanics for healers and tanks can be safe option, but for newer content as they do not dramatically revisit old content like that.

Veles

As I understand it, you're just tired that your teammates are constantly ruin your no-death runs? : )

To increase popularity of tanks and healers is possible only by content complicating. For example, veteran versions of old dungeons are becoming too easy to pass for an increasing number of players. We already do it solo, some players reg as tank or healer, no need for these roles. Only few things need to be done which this company never does: fix bugs, rework old dungeons and even add a new veteran mode of veteran mode. Let's call it Epic.

I understand that developers listen to pleas of more casual players part and simplifies the content. Yes, there are not so many hardcore players, but already a significant part of players has long overcome that newbie quest period and yet even the most recent casual one day dreams of going to master the content. And here he will already have a familiar dungeon, where he would not dare to go without worked out to the ideal rotation, healer and tank.

Here's how to add value to support roles.

bmnoble

Problem is a lot of people don't even care about achievements.

Eifleber

bmnoble wrote: »

Problem is a lot of people don't even care about achievements.

Well I would like to know what 's their use anyway, I started playing a few months ago and I still get a handful new ones each day, for every delve you clear, every province you clear of skyshards or books, or every WB you kill. There are just way too many so they devaluate.

hasi

I personally think the amount of Sets you need as Tank/Healer is too big and takes the fun out of wanting to play the Role.

As a retired Endgame Healer, I hated the whole grinding for dozens of Sets just to be viable.
I always wanted to try tanking, but I decided not to duo to the tons of Gear one needs to participate in such Content.

DPS on the other Hand needs far less, plus they don't (always) have to grind Psijic/Mages Guild/Fighters Guild/Alliance War Ranks/More than 2 Weapon Skilllines etc.

It's just rough.

AgaTheGreat

Dungeons and trial achievements are a team effort. Your team is as good as its weakest link. They shouldn't be individual. If you want to get them, you should allow enough time for everyone to be on your "superior" level. Practise makes perfect.

For the record, there are enough good tanks and healers, they just don't do random pugs because 9 out of 10 times they'll encounter potato DDs and that's wasting your time.

Justosay

The problem is not tank can't questing or crafting (even deep tank with little dps) or something what "ZOS should" to do. Dungeons are zones where you must act collectively and thinking not only about your wishes but about what other people want too. And lack of it i see recently in game.
If you played battleground you know that group must keep together and be one the whole. But if you look at dungeons you can watch absolute neglect from some group members toward others. This is especially true in normal dungeons where most group have "hurry-up-alts" that starts fight when not everyone came to the area of fight (and stand behind closed doors) or skeeps some bosses that needed for others or ignores questing (despite people said that they do quest).
The good group is group where everyone do the role that he agree to do when he start to be in queue (and thus respect other people). If you don't like it you can stand away from dungeons and use crafted gear because you don't need other gear to something except dungeons.

gatekeeper13

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

Dungeons and trial achievements are a team effort. Your team is as good as its weakest link. They shouldn't be individual. If you want to get them, you should allow enough time for everyone to be on your "superior" level. Practise makes perfect.

For the record, there are enough good tanks and healers, they just don't do random pugs because 9 out of 10 times they'll encounter potato DDs and that's wasting your time.

You can easily be carried in almost any vet trial.

I think individual titles are a good thing e.g. I ve never managed to get a no-death run in vet VoM because, although I ve done the dungeon 100+ times with pugs, there will always be someone who will keep doing high dps at first mini-boss and get someone in the group killed.

Problem with tanks is that they dont get any illustrious individual title like "Flawless Conqueror". There is nothing rewarding for that role and it looks like it exists only to aid DD do their job. And I am speaking as someone who plays both as tank and dd.

Long_Distance

Tanking is this game is kind of dull compared to other mmos.

Royaji

All you have to do to make tanking and healing more popular is to reduce the amount of bow Light Attack spamming DDs drastically. It's that simple.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

dazee wrote: »

Tanking in ESO I find to be extremely unsatisfying and lame. I do heal but only becuase as healer I can actually do far more damage, while also doing everything a healer in ESO should do, than I can while doing the same as a tank.

As healer I usually do over 10k dps on bosses in vet dungeons reliably, while keeping people alive and throwing out synergies and buffing the group/debuffing boss.

as tank, thats a struggle. ESO sword and board is underwhelming.. and thats a very big understatement.

Meanwhile I absolutely love the role. I just cannot get enough of being tank.

daemonios

Winstonshead wrote: »

mikikatze wrote: »

How so? 🤔

Tanks and healers die much less often than DD

Tell that to some of the tanks and healers I've run into pugging the new dungeons

As for OP's idea, it's VERY easy to ensure you don't die outside of a group wipe. It's far more complicated to ensure nobody in the group does. This coordinated group play is what deathless achievements are supposed to reward. I spent months running freaking Blessed Crucible before getting deathless because there was ALWAYS someone dying to the volcano at the last boss, even in otherwise good groups.

Aznarb

As a heal main, let me change something in the title @op :
We don't need to be more popular, we need to be more needed, that different.

Most of the content can be done w/o healer or tank. And some only with one of these two.
That why most people stop playing these role.
The more you get good and your team too, the more you feel useless and slot more and more dps instead of healing skill.
That stupid. But it's how it is.

It's a basic game design problem, til people can heal them-selve and know how to play, they don't need a healer.

Kadoin

Won't happen until the game is more than a DPS race...

Kombinator

Aznarb wrote: »

As a heal main, let me change something in the title @op :
We don't need to be more popular, we need to be more needed, that different.

Most of the content can be done w/o healer or tank. And some only with one of these two.
That why most people stop playing these role.
The more you get good and your team too, the more you feel useless and slot more and more dps instead of healing skill.
That stupid. But it's how it is.

Well switching from heal to a medicore dd is just switching skills. With addon it's 3 clicks. Tank is a bit more difficult, because to do decent damage you need to switch your entire gear at least.

Which came to the problem of popularity. As healer doing damage, or going overworld is simple. Just a bit more skills, and there you go. With tank you need to switch out your gear, and that means 12 to 14 extra slot used in the bag. Or suffer the super slow overworld questing. Anyone who isn't dungeon 100% of the time are suffer for going tank as role.

I think, that some DLC vet. dungeons should be nerfed closer to the hard base-game level, and a new difficulty should be introduced to make ALL dungeons hard for those who like that way. And by hard i mean REALLY hard. In most of the old dungeons the problem is not the lack of mechanics. It's the lack of punishment for not doing it. As tank i don't give a ****k about any aoe in any base-game dungeon. I literary facetank it, and it works. Usually not even health loss with Templar.

gatekeeper13

Kadoin wrote: »

Won't happen until the game is more than a DPS race...

Even game achievements point to that direction e.g, finish trial in ** minutes = DPS race

DreadDaedroth

I like to tank but since almost a year Zos enjoined making everything slower, nerfing one hand and shield damage and so on.

Aznarb

Kombinator wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

As a heal main, let me change something in the title @op :
We don't need to be more popular, we need to be more needed, that different.

Most of the content can be done w/o healer or tank. And some only with one of these two.
That why most people stop playing these role.
The more you get good and your team too, the more you feel useless and slot more and more dps instead of healing skill.
That stupid. But it's how it is.

Well switching from heal to a medicore dd is just switching skills. With addon it's 3 clicks. Tank is a bit more difficult, because to do decent damage you need to switch your entire gear at least.

Which came to the problem of popularity. As healer doing damage, or going overworld is simple. Just a bit more skills, and there you go. With tank you need to switch out your gear, and that means 12 to 14 extra slot used in the bag. Or suffer the super slow overworld questing. Anyone who isn't dungeon 100% of the time are suffer for going tank as role.

I think, that some DLC vet. dungeons should be nerfed closer to the hard base-game level, and a new difficulty should be introduced to make ALL dungeons hard for those who like that way. And by hard i mean REALLY hard. In most of the old dungeons the problem is not the lack of mechanics. It's the lack of punishment for not doing it. As tank i don't give a ****k about any aoe in any base-game dungeon. I literary facetank it, and it works. Usually not even health loss with Templar.

Not about switching skill, it's about be really useful.
A healer shouldn't have to dps and should be very busy at healing/buff/debuff/sent ressource.
But in this game, only ressource are needed, the reste can be done by DDs w/o much lose, well if DD are magika they even can throw orb since the dps from it is pretty good.
Doesn't matter to have olo or berserk minor when you can have a 3rd DDs dealing 80k+

Their is a reason why some hard achievement on this game are do easily by 3 DPS + 1 tank (like vbrp unchained for exemple).
The problem is not about difficulty, it's more about how the game is design in it's core.

AcadianPaladin

For me to enjoy tanking more:
- Eliminate boss abilities to sometimes ignore taunt.
- Increase tank's ability to do damage while tanking - using tanking skills and gear. Something like have S&B abilities scale off health instead of stam. If a tank could pure tank and still deliver 10k dps, it would make dealing with young pugs and overland questing much more enjoyable.

For me to enjoy healing more:
- Eliminate one shot mechanics. Perhaps in favor of more persistent damage over time mechanics where a healer has the time and ability to respond.

FierceSam

dazee wrote: »

Tanking in ESO I find to be extremely unsatisfying and lame. I do heal but only becuase as healer I can actually do far more damage, while also doing everything a healer in ESO should do, than I can while doing the same as a tank.

As healer I usually do over 10k dps on bosses in vet dungeons reliably, while keeping people alive and throwing out synergies and buffing the group/debuffing boss.

as tank, thats a struggle. ESO sword and board is underwhelming.. and thats a very big understatement.

If you measure everything by dps, then everyone’s a dd and you’ll never understand tanking or healing as separate tasks.

As a tank, if you’re doing more than 3% of the damage, it’s your dds who aren’t performing. Tanks aren’t about damage, they’re about control and fight management. They’re about putting the boss and his minions where they want them, holding their attention, debuffing them and buffing the group. None of that is measurable by dps.

Similarly healers are about helping the group stay alive, debuffing the boss, buffing the group and enabling the dds to focus on damage, not shields or heals. A dd who has slotted a self heal is playing solo content because they’re doing less damage than they could. Again your healer’s skill isn’t going to be reflected by their dps, it’s much more likely to be reflected by the 30% damage bonus they give their dds. And, heavy attacks aside, a healer who’s doing damage isn’t doing their role effectively as they’re not pushing out a buff, heal or debuff while they’re attacking.