Is it even possible to fix this game?

Solace1981

I'm no programmer, damn near computer illiterate but at this point in the game's life, with what they have at their disposal what would have to be done? I'm looking for people with real experience and knowledge in programming, game development, etc, whatever...... Hahaha my game just crashed as I was tabbed out... Anyways, with the numerous bugs that have been in the game since nearly launch, bugs that get introduced ith every patch, and the terrible performance since the game's launch, is it even possible? Would the game need the Final Fantasy treatment? Why is the performance so bad? Megaserver? Seriously, why can't they fix basic bugs? Or a core function in every MMO, group finder? I mean, this stuff has been around since launch. Surely it would be fixed by now if they knew how. Why can't they? Listen, I love this game, if it didn't have performance issues or even had way less, same with the bugs, this would be hands down best MMO on the market. Yes, I'm super frustrated atm and I am definitely taking a break. I just came back a few weeks ago from a 1 month break and yes I missed the game and came back. Think its gonna be at least 2 this time. I want this game to succeed, I really do but yeah can anyone answer this? Please? Thanks.

jircris11

Many will say yes or no, but in truth none of us know. Even a game dev such as my self does not know the inner workings of the core engine here. In my opinion the best way to fix most the lag,fps,ping issues is add on removal. As an experiment uninstall all add ons and run the game. It has run worlds smoother in my testing, that's due to how addons tax the system client side and server side. Especially ones that ping the server often like master merchant.

Another option is to simply rework the core code but to do that it would take time and money. End results is not guarentee either. So in my professional opinion they are doing what they can, and the average person needs to see the hard work they actually put in. Performance is also effected by your console/pc, connection (speed test mean nothing) and even distance from server.

MishMash

What would you suggest to fix the most awful "Stuck in Combat" bug that we have been dealing with for such a long time now?

jircris11

MishMash wrote: »

What would you suggest to fix the most awful "Stuck in Combat" bug that we have been dealing with for such a long time now?

the combat bug seemed to have come around the same time as the guards and npc line of sight has appeared. From my experience I have only had it happen when in groups and someone gets in to combat while your trying to interact with something. A bunch of things could cause it from spaghetti code (core code that has becomes jumbled with the slew of patches and old information not being removed) is the most common cause. This patch never was flagged as the "end all issues" it is simply a start. the patcher o longer leaves old files and now removes them, they have most likely done some back end stuff as well. Most players come here and rage at the devs thinking they don't care or they simply want money. But the devs actually care more about a game then even the players who have been here since the start such as my self. working on something for years its a part of you almost like a child so to speak, you want it to be the best it can be. The combat bug is a minor issue at this point, annoying but minor. There are memory leaks client side, cheaters and bots as well as the fact eso has no TRUE anti cheat system in place only a built in one. Then you have the bugged skills and sets (most are simple typos or conflicts in the code. THEN you have the big issue, our fps and ping. As I stated prior most are caused by add-ons.

Imagen if you will you are operating a call center and you have 100,000 people calling in every five seconds but you only have three agents. that is more or less what is happening to the server. Master Merchant pings the server or "refreshes" once every 3 minutes to 5 minutes depending on your settings. after a while that along with ALL the information for ALL the users actions, skills, interactions take a toll on the servers and it starts to grow sluggish.

Keep in mind this is all theory from some one who makes add-ons for multiple games and who has developed other games. This is in my opinion the root of most issues. simple to state but almost impossible to fix entirely without a complete rework.

Solace1981

MishMash wrote: »

What would you suggest to fix the most awful "Stuck in Combat" bug that we have been dealing with for such a long time now?

Umm did you not read my first sentence? Then the second one? I could list probably hundreds of bugs if I sat down here and typed them all out. Staring at a door for 2 minutes in a dungeon is not something I've ever experienced in any MMO I've played. You're like a woman in an abusive relationship. After awhile, its just normal I guess.

MrGarlic

It's like a spider making a web on top of another web, on top of another web, on top of another web ad infinitum.

If it needs to repair a part of one of the webs, it can't without affecting other parts of other webs. Also, one problem in one part of a web will affect the structure of other webs.

Code wise, as an example, to fix the running on horseback bug, it might affect ESO+ access to players with a 'Y' in their name, turn all mud crabs aggressively hostile and all Bosmers suddenly becoming vegan.

jircris11

Solace1981 wrote: »

MishMash wrote: »

What would you suggest to fix the most awful "Stuck in Combat" bug that we have been dealing with for such a long time now?

Umm did you not read my first sentence? Then the second one? I could list probably hundreds of bugs if I sat down here and typed them all out. Staring at a door for 2 minutes in a dungeon is not something I've ever experienced in any MMO I've played. You're like a woman in an abusive relationship. After awhile, its just normal I guess.

He was asking me not you, please be polite to others insulting only leads to harming your own cause. As for the load screen, might I ask a few questions? such as when you last cleaned your pc (disk clean up) as well as when the last time you updated everything. And lastly what add-ons you are using and distance from server. aka are you in the US/ I ask this because since the patch my average load time is around 10-15 seconds. Heck even the specs of your computer can help me in perhaps assisting you in getting a bit better performance out of ESO.

technohic

I'm in a wait and see hold. I expected this week to be rough, and maybe longer. I will say, for all the complaints, I've not had terrible lag in Cyrodiil, but with the crashes, its not as full as usual, and I've only seen 1 ball group. I have to imagine a couple of key roles in a ball group crashing means a wipe.

I think April is the first time an MMO with large scale PVP outside of Asian grinders comes out. So time is running out for me

Solace1981

jircris11 wrote: »

Many will say yes or no, but in truth none of us know. Even a game dev such as my self does not know the inner workings of the core engine here. In my opinion the best way to fix most the lag,fps,ping issues is add on removal. As an experiment uninstall all add ons and run the game. It has run worlds smoother in my testing, that's due to how addons tax the system client side and server side. Especially ones that ping the server often like master merchant.

Another option is to simply rework the core code but to do that it would take time and money. End results is not guarentee either. So in my professional opinion they are doing what they can, and the average person needs to see the hard work they actually put in. Performance is also effected by your console/pc, connection (speed test mean nothing) and even distance from server.

Yeah, I didn't think it would be a simple answer without having a look at what's going on and I never questioned whether they work really hard, I'm 100% sure they do. See what the next round of performance updates bring I suppose. Until then, I'll be taking a break and checking the forums. Thanks for the response.

jircris11

Solace1981 wrote: »

jircris11 wrote: »

Many will say yes or no, but in truth none of us know. Even a game dev such as my self does not know the inner workings of the core engine here. In my opinion the best way to fix most the lag,fps,ping issues is add on removal. As an experiment uninstall all add ons and run the game. It has run worlds smoother in my testing, that's due to how addons tax the system client side and server side. Especially ones that ping the server often like master merchant.

Another option is to simply rework the core code but to do that it would take time and money. End results is not guarentee either. So in my professional opinion they are doing what they can, and the average person needs to see the hard work they actually put in. Performance is also effected by your console/pc, connection (speed test mean nothing) and even distance from server.

Yeah, I didn't think it would be a simple answer without having a look at what's going on and I never questioned whether they work really hard, I'm 100% sure they do. See what the next round of performance updates bring I suppose. Until then, I'll be taking a break and checking the forums. Thanks for the response.

No problem, but before you do take a break might I suggest a few things? running a disk clean up as well as trying it with no add-ons. sometimes out of date add-ons will REALLY mess with the load times and performance due to it clashing with current coding.

Nanfoodle

Any major update will bring its own bugs, give them a min to get this live update working. I'm sure they are working on it.

jircris11

Nanfoodle wrote: »

Any major update will bring its own bugs, give them a min to get this live update working. I'm sure they are working on it.

You are correct, sadly as mentioned people saw this as the end to all issues patch. That is why I am on here trying to shed a bit of light but it seems to be falling upon deaf ears, or should I say blind eyes.

Solace1981

jircris11 wrote: »

Solace1981 wrote: »

jircris11 wrote: »

Many will say yes or no, but in truth none of us know. Even a game dev such as my self does not know the inner workings of the core engine here. In my opinion the best way to fix most the lag,fps,ping issues is add on removal. As an experiment uninstall all add ons and run the game. It has run worlds smoother in my testing, that's due to how addons tax the system client side and server side. Especially ones that ping the server often like master merchant.

Another option is to simply rework the core code but to do that it would take time and money. End results is not guarentee either. So in my professional opinion they are doing what they can, and the average person needs to see the hard work they actually put in. Performance is also effected by your console/pc, connection (speed test mean nothing) and even distance from server.

Yeah, I didn't think it would be a simple answer without having a look at what's going on and I never questioned whether they work really hard, I'm 100% sure they do. See what the next round of performance updates bring I suppose. Until then, I'll be taking a break and checking the forums. Thanks for the response.

No problem, but before you do take a break might I suggest a few things? running a disk clean up as well as trying it with no add-ons. sometimes out of date add-ons will REALLY mess with the load times and performance due to it clashing with current coding.

Naw, I'm good. All addons are up to date and if they aren't, I have them disabled. I shouldn't have to disable addons to play the game anyways. I've played several MMO's with lots of addons running, I had over 40 running when playing WoW. Me and 3 friends came to the game from WoW and I'm the last one standing. The rare days where I don't have any or very little issues, this is the greatest MMO on the planet imo.

Solace1981

technohic wrote: »

I'm in a wait and see hold. I expected this week to be rough, and maybe longer. I will say, for all the complaints, I've not had terrible lag in Cyrodiil, but with the crashes, its not as full as usual, and I've only seen 1 ball group. I have to imagine a couple of key roles in a ball group crashing means a wipe.

I think April is the first time an MMO with large scale PVP outside of Asian grinders comes out. So time is running out for me

What MMO is that?

Nanfoodle

jircris11 wrote: »

Nanfoodle wrote: »

Any major update will bring its own bugs, give them a min to get this live update working. I'm sure they are working on it.

You are correct, sadly as mentioned people saw this as the end to all issues patch. That is why I am on here trying to shed a bit of light but it seems to be falling upon deaf ears, or should I say blind eyes.

Part one of a many step plan.

jircris11

Solace1981 wrote: »

jircris11 wrote: »

Solace1981 wrote: »

jircris11 wrote: »

Many will say yes or no, but in truth none of us know. Even a game dev such as my self does not know the inner workings of the core engine here. In my opinion the best way to fix most the lag,fps,ping issues is add on removal. As an experiment uninstall all add ons and run the game. It has run worlds smoother in my testing, that's due to how addons tax the system client side and server side. Especially ones that ping the server often like master merchant.

Another option is to simply rework the core code but to do that it would take time and money. End results is not guarentee either. So in my professional opinion they are doing what they can, and the average person needs to see the hard work they actually put in. Performance is also effected by your console/pc, connection (speed test mean nothing) and even distance from server.

Yeah, I didn't think it would be a simple answer without having a look at what's going on and I never questioned whether they work really hard, I'm 100% sure they do. See what the next round of performance updates bring I suppose. Until then, I'll be taking a break and checking the forums. Thanks for the response.

No problem, but before you do take a break might I suggest a few things? running a disk clean up as well as trying it with no add-ons. sometimes out of date add-ons will REALLY mess with the load times and performance due to it clashing with current coding.

Naw, I'm good. All addons are up to date and if they aren't, I have them disabled. I shouldn't have to disable addons to play the game anyways. I've played several MMO's with lots of addons running, I had over 40 running when playing WoW. Me and 3 friends came to the game from WoW and I'm the last one standing. The rare days where I don't have any or very little issues, this is the greatest MMO on the planet imo.

ah WoW now there is a game I CAN talk about as I worked n it back In the day. You see WoW's add-ons are different then how ESO has theirs. Blizzard LITERALLY Developed the tools needed to make the mods and have them function thus when they upgraded the code and changed stuff the addons continued to function. If you remember ESO was not going to have add ons at first but then allowed them last minute thus they get imprinted in to the core game code. that is why some addons can actually be considered cheating. (there was one that would tell you if a stealthed person was near by and what skill they where using)

If Eso would have been created with addons in mind then most of the addon related issues would not be an issue.

MishMash

Thank you @jircris11 for answering me.

Grouping makes sense to me. I only group with one person in PvP usually. A long time ago I would group with full raids with a few of my guild friends, and I do remember SiC was almost always an issue with the larger groups too. So, I will make it a point to run solo more often and see how the SiC goes. As for the info about NPCs... I've heard that explained to me before, and you've confirmed it.

I fully understand that the Devs are not setting out for failure and they take pride in their work -- I truly get it. However, I do also understand how frustrating it can be for us gamers too. I worked in web/graphic design for over 20 yrs and I know from working with various CMS it would cause me grief at times. So, yes I can understand the Devs Pov

side note: I have no clue what the OP was trying to say to me... I think it was a lame attempt to insult me (facepalm)

jircris11

MishMash wrote: »

Thank you @jircris11 for answering me.

Grouping makes sense to me. I only group with one person in PvP usually. A long time ago I would group with full raids with a few of my guild friends, and I do remember SiC was almost always an issue with the larger groups too. So, I will make it a point to run solo more often and see how the SiC goes. As for the info about NPCs... I've heard that explained to me before, and you've confirmed it.

I fully understand that the Devs are not setting out for failure and they take pride in their work -- I truly get it. However, I do also understand how frustrating it can be for us gamers too. I worked in web/graphic design for over 20 yrs and I know from working with various CMS it would cause me grief at times. So, yes I can understand the Devs Pov

side note: I have no clue what the OP was trying to say to me... I think it was a lame attempt to insult me (facepalm)

No problem, and yes many seem to come here simply to be rude. Sad that "gamers" have fallen to this low of a level.

Solace1981

side note: I have no clue what the OP was trying to say to me... I think it was a lame attempt to insult me (facepalm)

No I wasn't (facepalm)

Stridig

Solace1981 wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I'm in a wait and see hold. I expected this week to be rough, and maybe longer. I will say, for all the complaints, I've not had terrible lag in Cyrodiil, but with the crashes, its not as full as usual, and I've only seen 1 ball group. I have to imagine a couple of key roles in a ball group crashing means a wipe.

I think April is the first time an MMO with large scale PVP outside of Asian grinders comes out. So time is running out for me

What MMO is that?

Maybe New World?

jircris11

Stridig wrote: »

Solace1981 wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I'm in a wait and see hold. I expected this week to be rough, and maybe longer. I will say, for all the complaints, I've not had terrible lag in Cyrodiil, but with the crashes, its not as full as usual, and I've only seen 1 ball group. I have to imagine a couple of key roles in a ball group crashing means a wipe.

I think April is the first time an MMO with large scale PVP outside of Asian grinders comes out. So time is running out for me

What MMO is that?

Maybe New World?

if that is the case its not open world pvp. lol they ditched that for toggle pvp.

nafensoriel

Solace1981 wrote: »

I'm no programmer, damn near computer illiterate but at this point in the game's life, with what they have at their disposal what would have to be done? I'm looking for people with real experience and knowledge in programming, game development, etc, whatever...... Hahaha my game just crashed as I was tabbed out... Anyways, with the numerous bugs that have been in the game since nearly launch, bugs that get introduced ith every patch, and the terrible performance since the game's launch, is it even possible? Would the game need the Final Fantasy treatment? Why is the performance so bad? Megaserver? Seriously, why can't they fix basic bugs? Or a core function in every MMO, group finder? I mean, this stuff has been around since launch. Surely it would be fixed by now if they knew how. Why can't they? Listen, I love this game, if it didn't have performance issues or even had way less, same with the bugs, this would be hands down best MMO on the market. Yes, I'm super frustrated atm and I am definitely taking a break. I just came back a few weeks ago from a 1 month break and yes I missed the game and came back. Think its gonna be at least 2 this time. I want this game to succeed, I really do but yeah can anyone answer this? Please? Thanks.

Well, first you have to understand that the answer is both no and yes. If you cant rationalize that in your own head the rest of this post will be useless.

The yes is that programs evolve.
U25 is an improvement in every sense of the word. It is more efficient(visibly so) and does what they claim it does.
It also introduced problems known as bugs. Anything you've suffered as a side effect of U25 will most likely be patched later on and performance will continue to improve.

The no is that programs evolve...
Yes, that sounds odd but hang with me a moment.
Eventually, every single program has to go through what we call refactoring(basically rewriting). The great thing about rewriting is that it lets us update things with new methods, tools, tricks, and technology to make software do new things or do things far more efficiently than they did before. The downside is once we do this you introduce an entirely new ecology of bugs.

Why do bugs keep happening? The games in active development and it is complex. People who don't code think its just one monolithic thing... it's not. Its hundreds if not thousands of little boxes of code that all have to talk to each other for the program to function properly. When you add content you try desperately to add as few connections as possible because this reduces the number of bugs you are likely to create... but it means you keep stressing the systems in place and a piece of code from 5 years ago that you did quickly is now bottlenecked by your new content plus the other 12 pieces of content you've developed since then that touch that link.

Head hurt yet? Now the fun begins!

Ok so you know 5 years ago code is a bottleneck... so you go to fix it...
It's connected to 40 things. Touching it will break two of them. Now you have to fix three things... but those other two things connect to 40 other things. You say *** it and try anyway... The program doesn't work after compile. Program frags database. Whelp that doesn't work back to square one! Oh.. and because you are an MMO you have to keep adding new things which makes the problem even worse!

MMOs come with bugs because the reality is you can't code without making bugs. They also rarely fix "minor" annoyance bugs because fixing those bugs might lead down rabbit holes that can bankrupt a company. In short MMO development is like riding a flaming train full of gremlins whilst attempting to perform brain surgery on yourself with your left foot. If it works.. it's good.

So enjoy the ride and forget the mess.

Stridig

jircris11 wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Solace1981 wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I'm in a wait and see hold. I expected this week to be rough, and maybe longer. I will say, for all the complaints, I've not had terrible lag in Cyrodiil, but with the crashes, its not as full as usual, and I've only seen 1 ball group. I have to imagine a couple of key roles in a ball group crashing means a wipe.

I think April is the first time an MMO with large scale PVP outside of Asian grinders comes out. So time is running out for me

What MMO is that?

Maybe New World?

if that is the case its not open world pvp. lol they ditched that for toggle pvp.

I'm just guessing. I've not heard of any others but then again, I work too much to be up to date.

jircris11

Stridig wrote: »

jircris11 wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Solace1981 wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I'm in a wait and see hold. I expected this week to be rough, and maybe longer. I will say, for all the complaints, I've not had terrible lag in Cyrodiil, but with the crashes, its not as full as usual, and I've only seen 1 ball group. I have to imagine a couple of key roles in a ball group crashing means a wipe.

I think April is the first time an MMO with large scale PVP outside of Asian grinders comes out. So time is running out for me

What MMO is that?

Maybe New World?

if that is the case its not open world pvp. lol they ditched that for toggle pvp.

I'm just guessing. I've not heard of any others but then again, I work too much to be up to date.

Same, though im still curious lol

Captain_Slaymore

Last year they announced that they were up 2.5 million players and that there have been 13.5 million players since launch of the game across the platforms. Well, lets just say that they have 1 million subs across all platforms total, at a minimum that would be 12 million dollars per month via the ESO Plus, not counting Crown Store sales each month. So even half of that at 6 million per month is 72 million per year if the numbers hold steady. I don't think that after all the expenses of networking, utilities, payroll, it is unreasonable to ask that the game we are paying to play, and supporting, operate like they hype it up to. What is frustrating, is that a lot of that income, is spent developing games like Rage or the luke warm Android games many of us don't play. Before I am attacked over this, It was Zos that stated 2,5 million new players since Elswyr, which, was 39.95 pre-order, then you could buy it for 19.99, which in of itself is a large sum of money if there were 2,5 million people added to the ranks, even after Steam and retailers take their cut. So, with that being said, in the past 4/5 years, we have seen the servers "partially" upgraded, instead of the entire server racks, failed launch after failed launch of updates and DLCs. Who wouldn't be frustrated when something gets hyped with cinematic trailers (not actual game play trailers) and promises of bug fixes and optimization. They have the means to correct this, as anyone with any corporate background will tell you. You have to ask yourself if you are willing to sacrifice quality here and now for a game coming out in a couple of years? Or a surprise game announcement at E3? Rage, my Plus sub helped pay for Rage, so did yours. SMH

Casterial

Yes, but their team seems to be lacking lead positions https://www.zenimaxonline.com/careers

Hopefully once all the leads and senior positions are filled they can make ESO great again

Don't get me wrong, I love this game but I can't stand to see something I like just get crushed over and over.

For example, this patch..... It had what? 3 weeks on PTS? Maybe less. And it was probably tested in house for maybe a month. They created a lot of tech to undo stuff and it feels like crud

Solace1981

U25 is an improvement in every sense of the word. It is more efficient(visibly so) and does what they claim it does.

C'MON MAN!

Zer0_CooL

Solace1981 wrote: »

I'm no programmer, damn near computer illiterate ..

Think you still could aply for a job with those qualifications.

Casterial

Solace1981 wrote: »

U25 is an improvement in every sense of the word. It is more efficient(visibly so) and does what they claim it does.

C'MON MAN!

No it does not, I run on an M.2 I don't notice a difference with load
I noticed my fps actually decrease

Hapexamendios

Based on past performance, I'm inclined to say no.

Captain_Slaymore

I enjoy the game too, started on PC, ported to X-Box, then, started a new account 3 years ago. So, i have the game on both X-Box and PC. There seems to be a lot of folks making excuses for ZoS, just as they did with the nightmare that was / is Fallout 76. I remember the Hello Games disaster called No Man's Sky, which, after 2 years of hard and smart work, by an Indy team, without the income of subscriptions and a store, turned it around. Make no mistake, ZoS / Bethesda are a powerhouse in the Gaming Community, but it is going to be consistent train wreck releases such as this, along with moving more towards a pay for advantage scheme that is going to finally sink them. Game Developers get to a point where they think they are too big to fail, EA, Blizzard are all ignoring what the consumers want, and following trends that lead to their games being abandoned or Memed out. If they are lacking a Lead Dev, It isn't like they lack the funds to entice a person into the ranks via salary. There are no shortages of people who have experience in the gaming industry. So, in essence, their ability to hire talent shouldn't affect me as a consumer of the end product, which is what happened here. Sorry, not bashing on you, and agreeing with you that each year is a release now, patch later scenario. The issue with the PTS is that it is another full sized game DL that many people reserve for the other games they have, there isn't enough incentive to get on it and test it out, and like you stated, it runs 3 weeks. Not nearly enough time for it to be thoroughly tested, and they have to have that timeline in order for the 3 freebies one paid expansion schedule they have set and promised.