Why no love for addon authors from billion dollar companies?
WhyMustItBe
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I feel it is important to point out once again that MMO companies (not just ZOS) making literally billions have still not found a way in 2020 to give anything back to addon authors.
I personally know a guy who was solely responsible for updating and fixing over 2 dozen addons, for no pay, requiring hundreds of hours of work, having to be redone (sometimes dramatically) every single patch. Imagine working a full time job for no reward but the experience of doing it and the ubiquitous inbox spam of complaints and requests to do more free things faster.
That doesn't sound sustainable to me.
There is really no reason for an industry (again there are many capable leaders in the gaming industry who could do this not just ZOS) that has benefited greatly by the contributions of specifically mod and addon authors, to still to have no better idea of how to facilitate that relationship as Twitch and other revenue generating markets have done than to flat monetize mods which is obviously not the right solution.
Since Twitch IS a thing we have seen companies investing in streamers and that spectrum of content creation, perhaps because the existence of these 3rd party platforms makes the investment feel more safe. Team leaders from the relevant areas of streaming type content creation have regularly been invited to participate in social media revenue generating public interaction campaigns by pretty much all major industry leaders at this point.
I feel it is the elephant in the room that an entire other spectrum of content creation has thus far been completely marginalized and largely ignored by this same very profitable industry, simply for want of an equivalent platform.
EDITED FOR BREVITY
Key takeaway thus far:
Replies, for convenience:
Forgive me, I didn't realize it was a personal challenge. I took it as more of a general philosophy to "pay it forward."
Without wanting to go into specifics, suffice it to say I contribute substantially to the modding community. But one should probably avoid looking at it in that sort of way, just as the addon authors themselves avoid seeing it as something they expect a reward for. "Put up or shut up" is an overly simplistic and inherently adversarial approach which I do not assume was your intent.
The issue I feel transcends such lesser debates over moral character of individuals, and it is impossible to marginalize all addon authors or all business leaders or all general members of the community without knowing each of their stance personally.
The one called Buddha is reputed to have said that those who help others in need should never expect a reward beyond the helping. I do not feel major industry leaders really fit the role of "those in need" in this scenario. Another wise person once said that to refuse a gift would be to deprive someone of the joy of giving, but again it is neither here nor there.
This is mostly about the failure by 2020 of major profitable industry leaders of the hundreds-of-billions annual gaming industry to invest in an equivalent content creation and sponsorship platform for addon authors and modders.
That said I do personally maintain it is more of an issue of misplaced paranoia about "modders being out to get them" than it is an issue of mere financial greed.
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Edited by WhyMustItBe on February 25, 2020 8:42PM I personally know a guy who was solely responsible for updating and fixing over 2 dozen addons, for no pay, requiring hundreds of hours of work, having to be redone (sometimes dramatically) every single patch. Imagine working a full time job for no reward but the experience of doing it and the ubiquitous inbox spam of complaints and requests to do more free things faster.
That doesn't sound sustainable to me.
There is really no reason for an industry (again there are many capable leaders in the gaming industry who could do this not just ZOS) that has benefited greatly by the contributions of specifically mod and addon authors, to still to have no better idea of how to facilitate that relationship as Twitch and other revenue generating markets have done than to flat monetize mods which is obviously not the right solution.
Since Twitch IS a thing we have seen companies investing in streamers and that spectrum of content creation, perhaps because the existence of these 3rd party platforms makes the investment feel more safe. Team leaders from the relevant areas of streaming type content creation have regularly been invited to participate in social media revenue generating public interaction campaigns by pretty much all major industry leaders at this point.
I feel it is the elephant in the room that an entire other spectrum of content creation has thus far been completely marginalized and largely ignored by this same very profitable industry, simply for want of an equivalent platform.
EDITED FOR BREVITY
Key takeaway thus far:
- The best solution with the least risk would be a platform, like Twitch, for this slightly different spectrum of the content creation market.
- It is important to diversify incentives beyond strictly monetary (game time, cash shop tokens, etc.) based on how an individual chooses to interact with that hypothetical platform.
Replies, for convenience:
@taylorwilenskiub17_ESO - To answer your question of what benefit to ZOS, try to think of it as incentivizing rather than than compensation.
I feel too many corporate attorneys (and to an extent modern business people in general) get hung up in this concept of fervently defending ownership, to the point it almost seems instinctual.
One does get the impression given even a cursory examination of modern socioeconomics around the world that powerful people tend to see other people increasingly as a threat, something which will necessarily attempt to claim your property and tie you up in legal obligations and generally cost you money.
It is all worst case scenario fearmongering to me. I see only opportunity.
Perhaps the relevant industry leaders have made some bad investments in the past that burned them and they're just shy.
link
I feel too many corporate attorneys (and to an extent modern business people in general) get hung up in this concept of fervently defending ownership, to the point it almost seems instinctual.
One does get the impression given even a cursory examination of modern socioeconomics around the world that powerful people tend to see other people increasingly as a threat, something which will necessarily attempt to claim your property and tie you up in legal obligations and generally cost you money.
It is all worst case scenario fearmongering to me. I see only opportunity.
Perhaps the relevant industry leaders have made some bad investments in the past that burned them and they're just shy.
link
As someone pointed out (edited?) the best solution with the least risk would be a platform, like Twitch, for this slightly different spectrum of the content creation market.
However unlike was mentioned, I feel it is important to diversify incentives beyond strictly monetary (game time, cash shop tokens, etc.) based on how an individual chooses to interact with that hypothetical platform.
It is easily manageable and not terribly complicated to code, and the behavioral psychology is well established, which it occurs to me to mention it is also well known that while pride and recognition will motivate some of the people for some time, it is a small-slice investment strategy with diminishing returns.
But like I said if you are shy and don't care about playing the market, you might just ignore such opportunities.
link
However unlike was mentioned, I feel it is important to diversify incentives beyond strictly monetary (game time, cash shop tokens, etc.) based on how an individual chooses to interact with that hypothetical platform.
It is easily manageable and not terribly complicated to code, and the behavioral psychology is well established, which it occurs to me to mention it is also well known that while pride and recognition will motivate some of the people for some time, it is a small-slice investment strategy with diminishing returns.
But like I said if you are shy and don't care about playing the market, you might just ignore such opportunities.
link
@thadjarvis your analogy to other industries where 'modding' in some form exists is good in that it illustrates how in all these scenarios you mention 1) the provider of the services is compensated for their labor and 2) the original company is in no way liable for nor legally bound to the work.
There is very little risk in establishing a content creation sponsorship platform for specifically addon and mod authors, nor would it in any way legally or financially harm large industry leaders or even individuals to contribute in a meaningful way to the 'budget' for that platform.
The return: More quality work by more talented authors creating greater satisfaction with the products they are associated with. Having these individuals choose to remain associated with your industry over the long terms is also an undervalued benefit.
This concept of consumer satisfaction is a relevant one. For one thing, it makes the violent mood swings of industries a little less extreme. It pads the public outrage numbers and helps avoid flash mob style devaluation of assets in the short term.
There is a whole field of behavioral psychology devoted to this concept of incentives and their many benefits.
@idk this expresses what appears to be a common attitude of business in general I touched on before which I feel totally misses the point. It is about opportunity to invest for greater net benefit, not about someone trying to work some legal angle to take something from you.
There is no reason to avoid investment in a content creation platform simply based on the assumption that content creators are all out to get us. It is an adversarial attitude for which there is no motivating offense. It focuses almost exclusively on a worst-case scenario to the exclusion of the possibility for a mutual beneficial relationship.
To me that comes across as paranoid more than simply greedy, which is why I mentioned the possibility of a "once bitten twice shy" investment posture on the part of the relevant industry leaders we happen to have to work with at the moment.
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There is very little risk in establishing a content creation sponsorship platform for specifically addon and mod authors, nor would it in any way legally or financially harm large industry leaders or even individuals to contribute in a meaningful way to the 'budget' for that platform.
The return: More quality work by more talented authors creating greater satisfaction with the products they are associated with. Having these individuals choose to remain associated with your industry over the long terms is also an undervalued benefit.
This concept of consumer satisfaction is a relevant one. For one thing, it makes the violent mood swings of industries a little less extreme. It pads the public outrage numbers and helps avoid flash mob style devaluation of assets in the short term.
There is a whole field of behavioral psychology devoted to this concept of incentives and their many benefits.
@idk this expresses what appears to be a common attitude of business in general I touched on before which I feel totally misses the point. It is about opportunity to invest for greater net benefit, not about someone trying to work some legal angle to take something from you.
There is no reason to avoid investment in a content creation platform simply based on the assumption that content creators are all out to get us. It is an adversarial attitude for which there is no motivating offense. It focuses almost exclusively on a worst-case scenario to the exclusion of the possibility for a mutual beneficial relationship.
To me that comes across as paranoid more than simply greedy, which is why I mentioned the possibility of a "once bitten twice shy" investment posture on the part of the relevant industry leaders we happen to have to work with at the moment.
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I see you ignored my Donate to An Addon Author Challenge...
Forgive me, I didn't realize it was a personal challenge. I took it as more of a general philosophy to "pay it forward."
Without wanting to go into specifics, suffice it to say I contribute substantially to the modding community. But one should probably avoid looking at it in that sort of way, just as the addon authors themselves avoid seeing it as something they expect a reward for. "Put up or shut up" is an overly simplistic and inherently adversarial approach which I do not assume was your intent.
The issue I feel transcends such lesser debates over moral character of individuals, and it is impossible to marginalize all addon authors or all business leaders or all general members of the community without knowing each of their stance personally.
The one called Buddha is reputed to have said that those who help others in need should never expect a reward beyond the helping. I do not feel major industry leaders really fit the role of "those in need" in this scenario. Another wise person once said that to refuse a gift would be to deprive someone of the joy of giving, but again it is neither here nor there.
This is mostly about the failure by 2020 of major profitable industry leaders of the hundreds-of-billions annual gaming industry to invest in an equivalent content creation and sponsorship platform for addon authors and modders.
That said I do personally maintain it is more of an issue of misplaced paranoia about "modders being out to get them" than it is an issue of mere financial greed.
link
thadjarvis wrote: »@Dark_Lord_Kuro
...what seems outrageous is that some have noted that ZoS actively prevents creators from collecting revenue themselves.
The policies most companies use for addons including ZOS are pretty unfair to modders. I am headed out or I would link the relevant areas of the TOS but in summary:
- You are not allowed to sell mods in any form.
- You can have a donation link but can not ASK for donations (that part seems really weird).
- You can't make promises to make this mod or add that feature at certain Patreon payout levels, which defeats the whole point of Patreon and what generates revenue there. Patreon is also not useful as its market is too diversified and doesn't generate mod traffic, plus most people don't like the idea of a recurring payment system.
It does seem intentionally designed to take away any legitimate avenue for a mod author to benefit from their hours of labor.
Since they are not allowed to ASK it is completely reliant on people accidentally stumbling on that donate button. No self promotion that is necessary to actually generate revenue is allowed by the TOS, which hearkens to the poster who pointed out other areas where modders generate revenue like car body shops, where he argued it is the modder's responsibility to self promote: they literally are forbidden from doing so by the TOS. I feel almost no one knows this.
What is the consequence? A quick look at the ESOUI page will reveal that many if not most of the largest mod projects by the most talented artists end up abandoned (or in maintenance mode with nothing being added), because there is simply no way for them to generate revenue to cover the cost of their time as professionals.
The donate button is something which generates maybe $5 once in a while (often a great while), sometimes a slightly larger donation here and there, and most often spread out over YEARS where there will be nothing coming in for months at a time.
The incentive is simply not there for the talented people we actually want making mods to continue to donate their time when the world is in such a dire state economically (unless you are a billionaire) with everyone else working the "gig economy" to try and make ends meet, and having family obligations and possibly health issues to contend with, all of which cost money.
When times are good people do more charity work like this. Those times have changed.
Addons aren't created in a vacuum. They are made by real people with valuable skills who have real life obligations, and a platform for crowd-funded revenue distribution would go a long way to ensure what they do continues to be something we get to enjoy.
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Alpheu5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Simple answer: Add-on authors don't tend to attract new customers, and they'd much sooner monetize the work and reimburse the author than just reimburse the author for what they've contributed.Edited by Alpheu5 on February 24, 2020 9:08PMDalek-Rok - Argonian Sorcerer || Dalek-Shād - Argonian Nightblade || Dalek-Shul - Argonian Templar || Dalek-Xal - Argonian Dragonknight || Mounts-the-Snout - Argonian Warden || Dalek-Xul - Argonian Necromancer || Two-Spires - Argonian Arcanist || Dalek-Nesh - Argonian Sorcerer || Dalek-Kör - Argonian DragonknightJudas Helviaryn wrote: »Don't incorporate bugs into your builds, and you won't have [an] issue.4 -
I understand where you're coming from, but I don't foresee anything being done about this.
Where is the benefit to ZOS in rewarding these individuals? They have done nothing to date, but add-ons still continue to be made and updated.
While ZOS allows the use of Add-Ons they never explicitly asked people to create add-ons and dedicate their time to continuously updating them. This is entirely on the person creating them (god bless their souls). They are QoL improvements and not necessary to play the game (i.e., PS4/XBOX1)
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Katahdin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yea the billion dollar company could put those features into the game in the first place and not need the addons at all.
The game companies dont ask for the addons to be made, they simply allow them to be used. They dont force the addon makers to update them either. While addons do make the game easier, they are not required.
I don't see where they owe addon makers anything just because they make an optional mod that the company never asked for.
I'm sure doing them is a lot of work and annoying to update. If it's such a hassle, don't do it. Most do it because the like doing.
Some players donate to makers of addons they like. Anyone making addons expecting payment is expecting to be paid for volunteer work.
Edited by Katahdin on February 24, 2020 9:23PMBeta tester November 20138 -
Ermiq✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well, ZOS do add new API functions requested by addon makers. So, it's not like addon makers are completely ignored. Just saying.One of the two of us definitely has gone mad. It only remains to define whether this one is the whole world or just me.
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
Sick&tired of being kicked off from your house when you complete a dungeon? ComingBackHome addon is what you need!
Me is russian little bad in english :b8 -
thadjarvis✭✭✭✭It is a shame, but what others point out is likely true: they don't drive revenue in a measurable way. However, what's hard to measure is how many players would leave, play less, and buy less stuff without addons. I know I would certainly drop interest significantly if multi-character inventory (and other aspects) management consumed more than 10% of my gameplay. Add-ons help the gamers game rather than sitting in a virtual room filing.
Though, I think they do value add-on creators for their skillset. There are examples of ESO/ZoS specifically hiring add-on creators. It kinda keeps add-on quality down in an indirect way as if there's some awesome super polished coder, they'll hire that coder to include their ideas in the game to be able to sell it to customers.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Because, simply put, the money for that isn't going to come out of the company's pocket without a good return. Streamers and the like at least server as advertisement, so there's some return on that investment.
Addon creators? A really good one might get hired.
I'm sure it also has something to do with the backlash from the TES modding community the last time Bethesda tried to work out a system where mod creators could get reimbursed for their work.2 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭How do you all feel about paying for the add-ons you use?
*crickets* Edited by TequilaFire on February 24, 2020 9:44PM13 -
WhyMustItBe✭✭✭✭✭
✭@taylorwilenskiub17_ESO - To answer your question of what benefit to ZOS, try to think of it as incentivizing rather than than compensation.
I feel too many corporate attorneys (and to an extent modern business people in general) get hung up in this concept of fervently defending ownership, to the point it almost seems instinctual.
One does get the impression given even a cursory examination of modern socioeconomics around the world that powerful people tend to see other people increasingly as a threat, something which will necessarily attempt to claim your property and tie you up in legal obligations and generally cost you money.
It is all worst case scenario fearmongering to me. I see only opportunity.
Perhaps the relevant industry leaders have made some bad investments in the past that burned them and they're just shy.1 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭taylorwilenskiub17_ESO wrote: »I understand where you're coming from, but I don't foresee anything being done about this.
Where is the benefit to ZOS in rewarding these individuals? They have done nothing to date, but add-ons still continue to be made and updated.
While ZOS allows the use of Add-Ons they never explicitly asked people to create add-ons and dedicate their time to continuously updating them. This is entirely on the person creating them (god bless their souls). They are QoL improvements and not necessary to play the game (i.e., PS4/XBOX1)
I'm not a fan of addons (or, rather, the need for them!), so I don't use that many of them, but I doubt I would be playing this game without them.
Maps and surveys would be impossible and not knowing, even vaguely, how to price my items on guild stores leaves me feeling totally discombobulated.3 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think the issue is addons are created to fix a player problem. That is however not inherently always in the design intent from the Devs. Is TTC what they imagined for the trade system? I highly doubt it, but they leave it as is.
Some things they will pick and copy, such as UI features in traders that were patched in, but overall I don't see the two having any more issues than a streamer would. Performance issues are Performance issues, no matter if you are a player, streamer, or addon developer.Edited by karekiz on February 24, 2020 9:47PM1 -
Alpheu5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭taylorwilenskiub17_ESO wrote: »I understand where you're coming from, but I don't foresee anything being done about this.
Where is the benefit to ZOS in rewarding these individuals? They have done nothing to date, but add-ons still continue to be made and updated.
While ZOS allows the use of Add-Ons they never explicitly asked people to create add-ons and dedicate their time to continuously updating them. This is entirely on the person creating them (god bless their souls). They are QoL improvements and not necessary to play the game (i.e., PS4/XBOX1)
I'm not a fan of addons (or, rather, the need for them!), so I don't use that many of them, but I doubt I would be playing this game without them.
Maps and surveys would be impossible and not knowing, even vaguely, how to price my items on guild stores leaves me feeling totally discombobulated.
OoOoOoOoh, this is the ghost of items-too-new-for-MM-and-TTC, oOoOoOoOhDalek-Rok - Argonian Sorcerer || Dalek-Shād - Argonian Nightblade || Dalek-Shul - Argonian Templar || Dalek-Xal - Argonian Dragonknight || Mounts-the-Snout - Argonian Warden || Dalek-Xul - Argonian Necromancer || Two-Spires - Argonian Arcanist || Dalek-Nesh - Argonian Sorcerer || Dalek-Kör - Argonian DragonknightJudas Helviaryn wrote: »Don't incorporate bugs into your builds, and you won't have [an] issue.4 -
Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Careful.
With the industry climate these days, they'll just re-write the terms of service and make it so Zenimax owns any and all custom content made for the game, including your precious add-ons.
Also, I'm just not seeing any justification for Zenimax paying add-on (aka, mod) authors. That's not how it works. Might as well ask Ford/GM/Toyota/etc to pay any mechanic who does any modification on your car that improves how it works. Ridiculous.Edited by Starlock on February 24, 2020 9:56PM4 -
WiseSky✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I would definitely not play the game without some addons...
Since ZOS wont pay them I try to make donations in $ or in game...
The really sad part is that 2 of the best addon creators that I love... dont even have a donate button or paypal
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Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »How do you all feel about paying for the add-ons you use?
I think the multi-billion dollar games companies should use some of their mega profits to pay any addon-maker, who makes an addon that most people think should have been included in the game anyway, themselves.
I don't see why we, the customers, should have to pay full price for a partially complete game and then pay addon-makers, on top of that, as well.
If I had to keep paying both this company and then this and that person (whether directly, or through a company like Minion), individually, for everything, I think I would just give up and leave.
Of course addon-makers should be financially rewarded, but considering most of the addons they make should have been features in the base game, from launch (or soon after, in some cases), the customer paying extra would be wrong.
Might even make games companies leave stuff out, on purpose, so they could then make it available through pay-extra addons.
Which would be all kinds of wrong and would also, effectively, make the game become pay2win.
...and even if the games companies didn't do that, paying for addons other people couldn't access for free, on the same platform, would still be pay2win.
Edited by Tigerseye on February 25, 2020 8:35AM0 -
WhyMustItBe✭✭✭✭✭
✭As someone pointed out (edited?) the best solution with the least risk would be a platform, like Twitch, for this slightly different spectrum of the content creation market.
However unlike was mentioned, I feel it is important to diversify incentives beyond strictly monetary (game time, cash shop tokens, etc.) based on how an individual chooses to interact with that hypothetical platform.
It is easily manageable and not terribly complicated to code, and the behavioral psychology is well established, which it occurs to me to mention it is also well known that while pride and recognition will motivate some of the people for some time, it is a small-slice investment strategy with diminishing returns.
But like I said if you are shy and don't care about playing the market, you might just ignore such opportunities.
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Thokri✭✭✭✭✭Have people forgotten paid addons attempt from bethesda?
I sure haven't forgiven that.
I have supported addon authors with donations but never on style bethesda tried.Edited by Thokri on February 24, 2020 10:10PM7 -
Commandment✭✭✭Going to say no, I don't want the creation club from Skyrim to also be on ESO. The community creates addons because they love the game, and it's as simple as that. If the people want to donate to them, they have the option.5 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭taylorwilenskiub17_ESO wrote: »I understand where you're coming from, but I don't foresee anything being done about this.
Where is the benefit to ZOS in rewarding these individuals? They have done nothing to date, but add-ons still continue to be made and updated.
While ZOS allows the use of Add-Ons they never explicitly asked people to create add-ons and dedicate their time to continuously updating them. This is entirely on the person creating them (god bless their souls). They are QoL improvements and not necessary to play the game (i.e., PS4/XBOX1)
I'm not a fan of addons (or, rather, the need for them!), so I don't use that many of them, but I doubt I would be playing this game without them.
Maps and surveys would be impossible and not knowing, even vaguely, how to price my items on guild stores leaves me feeling totally discombobulated.
OoOoOoOoh, this is the ghost of items-too-new-for-MM-and-TTC, oOoOoOoOh
Exactly.0 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »How do you all feel about paying for the add-ons you use?
I think the multi-billion dollar games companies should use some of their mega profits to pay any addon-maker, who makes an addon that most people think should have been included in the game anyway, themselves.
I don't see why we, the customers, should have to pay full price for a partially complete game and then pay addon-makers, on top of that, as well.
If I had to keep paying both this company and then this and that person (whether directly, through a company like Minion), individually, for everything, I think I would just give up and leave.
Of course addon-makers should be financially rewarded, but considering most of the addons they make should have been features in the base game, from launch (or soon after, in some cases), the customer paying extra would be wrong.
Might even make games companies leave stuff out, on purpose, so they could then make it available through pay-extra addons.
Which would be all kinds of wrong and would also, effectively, make the game become pay2win.
...and even if the games companies didn't do that, paying for addons other people couldn't access for free, on the same platform, would still be pay2win.
Addons are not necessary to play the game as provided by the developers. It is a matter of opinion what should have been included in a base game and unless you start your own game development company the only opinion that counts is the devs.
Now addons add value to the game making your life a little easier, so the author that creates them deserves some compensation. As to pay2win no addon should give any combat advantage that you can not get by other means in game.
People give silly streamers donations so why not give donations to authors who actually provide something useful.
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AcadianPaladin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭OP simply said that ZOS should recognize and show some appreciation for our wonderful community of addon makers.
- Include them in live feeds or whatever.
- Publicly acknowledge that addon makers are an important factor in retaining the loyalty of long term PC players.
- Work with addon makers and incorporate some of their efforts into the main game. One of the best examples I can think of would be to include the features of Pet Dismiss into the game for all platforms. Who would not appreciate a few less summons around crafting stations?
- Generally showing some love for the efforts of addon makers would be most appropriate.
Financial compensation is another issue and beyond the scope of my post except to say that none of the above ideas involve such compensation.
Edited by AcadianPaladin on February 24, 2020 10:08PMPC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo2 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »How do you all feel about paying for the add-ons you use?
I think the multi-billion dollar games companies should use some of their mega profits to pay any addon-maker, who makes an addon that most people think should have been included in the game anyway, themselves.
I don't see why we, the customers, should have to pay full price for a partially complete game and then pay addon-makers, on top of that, as well.
If I had to keep paying both this company and then this and that person (whether directly, through a company like Minion), individually, for everything, I think I would just give up and leave.
Of course addon-makers should be financially rewarded, but considering most of the addons they make should have been features in the base game, from launch (or soon after, in some cases), the customer paying extra would be wrong.
Might even make games companies leave stuff out, on purpose, so they could then make it available through pay-extra addons.
Which would be all kinds of wrong and would also, effectively, make the game become pay2win.
...and even if the games companies didn't do that, paying for addons other people couldn't access for free, on the same platform, would still be pay2win.
Addons are not necessary to play the game as provided by the developers. It is a matter of opinion what should have been included in a base game and unless you start your own game development company the only opinion that counts is the devs.
Now addons add value to the game making your life a little easier, so the author that creates them deserves some compensation. As to pay2win no addon should give any combat advantage that you can not get by other means in game.
People give silly streamers donations so why not give donations to authors who actually provide something useful.
Rubbish.
There are certain things that have been permanently left out, of this game, that every other previous MMO has had as standard.
Then, there are other mechanics, in the game, that are intentionally obtuse, which has led to a need that hasn't otherwise existed, in other MMOs, but for which you need an addon, here.
Yes, some of it is subjective, but some most definitely is not.
It would be quite interesting to see how far a game would have to be stripped, for parts, before some people would stop screaming "subjective" (or "matter of opinion")!Edited by Tigerseye on February 24, 2020 10:17PM4 -
TigressCreed✭✭✭Wish we had add ons on console. Try farming those damn lore books for all mag characters. Makes me wanna become soul shriven so I forget all the time I wasted on themEdited by TigressCreed on February 24, 2020 10:24PMXbox NA TigressCreed1 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There are certain things that have been permanently left out, of this game, that every other previous MMO has had as standard.
Then, there are other mechanics, in the game, that are intentionally obtuse, which has led to a need that hasn't otherwise existed, in other MMOs, but for which you need an addon, here.
Yes, some of it is subjective, but some most definitely is not.
Like what?
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(I miss the days when people did things for the fun of it, instead of saying "how can I monetize this?" It's especially funny when you contrast the "everything I do on the net must be worth money to me somehow!" with "how dare companies do things that cost me money!" And when most of these "let me monetize this!" activities are based around other peoples' IP.)3 -
thadjarvis✭✭✭✭Think of what we mean by add-ons:
"Chipping" a car
CPU cooler to overclock
A saw dust collector addon for a shop vac
Add-ons for ESO
etc.
These examples subjectively enhance the original product for some customers. They also have the potential to make the product work poorly. In most industries I can think of it's on the producer of the add-on to collect payment for using what they produce. Common practice is if the add-on becomes widespread, reliable, and fits the company's brand they'll look to acquire so they can control and integrate it. Otherwise, they'll leave it alone and may choose to provide tech info to the add-on producer like an API in software. But they may not if they want to have tighter control over their brand experience (think Apple vs Microsoft).
Add-ons creators that choose a free and open source licencing and distribution path have already gone into it for service, fun, and learning NOT money. They can market to donate to them. None of it is on ZoS.
I understand the thought, but generally speaking if you produce and distribute a product it's also your job to collect sales revenue or set up licencing etc. (if you want money)3 -
WiseSky✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lead by Example @WhyMustItBe
I just made 2 donations to my favorite authors
I ADDON CHALLENGE YOU TO do the same!5 -
Shantu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Personally I think there are many addons that uniquely add to the quality of the game. ZOS should pay these developers for their innovative ideas in incorporate them into the game. That would be the fair and honorable thing to do. Heck, some of their work is SO much better than what ZOS comes up with, they should consider hiring them.3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Addon authors should not expect to receive funding from the game developer. That would require either a contract agreement or an employment arrangement.
It really is that simple. If it is a good and popular addon they probably do receive some funding from players.4 -
WhyMustItBe✭✭✭✭✭
✭@thadjarvis your analogy to other industries where 'modding' in some form exists is good in that it illustrates how in all these scenarios you mention 1) the provider of the services is compensated for their labor and 2) the original company is in no way liable for nor legally bound to the work.
There is very little risk in establishing a content creation sponsorship platform for specifically addon and mod authors, nor would it in any way legally or financially harm large industry leaders or even individuals to contribute in a meaningful way to the 'budget' for that platform.
The return: More quality work by more talented authors creating greater satisfaction with the products they are associated with. Having these individuals choose to remain associated with your industry over the long terms is also an undervalued benefit.
This concept of consumer satisfaction is a relevant one. For one thing, it makes the violent mood swings of industries a little less extreme. It pads the public outrage numbers and helps avoid flash mob style devaluation of assets in the short term.
There is a whole field of behavioral psychology devoted to this concept of incentives and their many benefits.
@idk this expresses what appears to be a common attitude of business in general I touched on before which I feel totally misses the point. It is about opportunity to invest for greater net benefit, not about someone trying to work some legal angle to take something from you.
There is no reason to avoid investment in a content creation platform simply based on the assumption that content creators are all out to get us. It is an adversarial attitude for which there is no motivating offense. It focuses almost exclusively on a worst-case scenario to the exclusion of the possibility for a mutual beneficial relationship.
To me that comes across as paranoid more than simply greedy, which is why I mentioned the possibility of a "once bitten twice shy" investment posture on the part of the relevant industry leaders we happen to have to work with at the moment.
Edited by WhyMustItBe on February 24, 2020 11:40PM1