Heroic Slash vs Dizzy Swing

Expert

They once said Heroic Slash was overloaded and it had led to a big nerf across the board. We lost Defile on Reverb so we're unable to counterplay the healing power we face today.

But they did bring Dizzy swing to the point it's more overloaded than Heroic Slash in which they nerfed.

No matter how many times you block a Dizzy, roll a dizzy, you're going to take much more until you go down because it's also a very cheap skill.

Some of the best combos are , dizzy la + dizzy la + dizzy +la until they're 60% health do a med heavy into onslaught into execute execute execute execute. (That was only 3 skills for offense)

Comparing this kind of gameplay to magicka, Is there a magicka toon that can play with just 3 offensive skills? That's unheard of, we require 5+ skills and the skills also cost more than Stamina.

That's just my input, Zenimax allowed this. Just saying, they said Heroic Slash is overloaded and then they're making Dizzy swing as the new heroic slash except it's better and more overloaded. (Actual pepegas)

In terms of power fantasy, a 2 handed sword ability known as Rally can heal you.
a 2 handed ability known as dizzy swing has a sticky substance and can snare you from a metal sword, and stun of course. 2 CC's packed in one skill
a 2 handed ability can help you sustain, and boost your overall tank build to do 10% extra damage.
Then u can do extra damage in ur heavy attacks and giving you more sustain back than you spent on dizzy swing for how cheap it is.
Then the most obvious one, It can be spammed very efficiently as it no longer requires a full second of cast time.

This 2h weapon line has quiet a lot of firepower , I only have a problem with 2h execute doing premature damage before registering, and dizzy swing hitting as hard as it does for spamming one button and eliminating class combinations as it's no longer needed.

Also, buff meteor.

It cost 170 ultimate, takes 2 seconds, and then lands on people with Major Evasion maimed by 25%. nice

Onslaught is cheaper ultimate, is faster to use, and lands on people with much higher tooltip numbers and give you full penetration.

Lets go Gang! Boom baby

Dracane

Good.

Volckodav

+ now as a mDK I'm facing blastone that hit like a truc, give major defile and that I cannot avoid as it pop literally on me.
even worst as it is targetable I miss my combo before it blow me, horrible

Crixus8000

Dizzy only got buffed for less experienced players who spam it because they don't understand how to use it. But the skill is actually getting a huge nerf.

Anyron

How you dare to ask for balancing stamina and magicka skills?? Everyone knows they want us to play as stamina dds and magicka is only ment for support.. Yeah play how you like but not that eficient

MartiniDaniels

Meteor costs 200 actually, but I guess you don't know about it while playing magsorc.
I may understand when magcro, magden and to lesser extent magDK and magblade can complain about dizzy.
But magsorc... really, just streak through while he is "casting" dizzy or block it with your S&B bar if streak is on cooldown.

Magsorcs complains are always so funny. I had friendly chat with one few weeks ago and he said:
"Man, I hate onslaught+blastbones, I EVEN maybe bursted down if I FORGET to keep shields up." Imagine, fact that class is no longer immortal god and can be punished for making mistakes is perceived like preposterous fact for magsorcs.

Though you are right about heroic slash. Other morph is fine, but heroic was just nerfed to be used by PVE tanks...

Olupajmibanan

In my dreams, they make Searing Strike and Fiery Breath unpurgeable. IMHO, it's a design flaw that a class that has no execute, very limited burst capabilities and is primarily meant for exhausting/outlasting opponents can be countered so hard and so easily. Any stamina can slap 2h on themselves and be done with it. Magicka has some nice burst possibilities too, but magDK is in a very weird spot.

Ele Drain, Burning Embers, Fiery Breath, sometimes Volatile Armor and Burning proc to increase the pressure. That's 4 GCDs that can be all purged with one skill. I load a templar with all of my dots and he shows me middle finger with one Cleansing Ritual cast. I don't even accept duels from templars and I generaly just ignore them in PvP and find someone else to fight. It's a complete waste of time. And the same is true about Wardens. Since they have purge on netch, they are out of touch for a magDK.

Fur_like_snow

Heroic is a PvE skill now. RIP the days of LA, heroic bash weaves.

Dizzy is simple to counter by using block cancel. However next patch it gets a nerf from off balance change.

Also it’s a good thing that meteor has a cast time so you back load the damage. If you playing a class with an unblockable CC it’s very strong. Maybe the cost is a little high?

Onslaught is prob the best ultimate on live with so much healing and mitigation flying around.

Dracane

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Meteor costs 200 actually, but I guess you don't know about it while playing magsorc.
I may understand when magcro, magden and to lesser extent magDK and magblade can complain about dizzy.
But magsorc... really, just streak through while he is "casting" dizzy or block it with your S&B bar if streak is on cooldown.

Magsorcs complains are always so funny. I had friendly chat with one few weeks ago and he said:
"Man, I hate onslaught+blastbones, I EVEN maybe bursted down if I FORGET to keep shields up." Imagine, fact that class is no longer immortal god and can be punished for making mistakes is perceived like preposterous fact for magsorcs.

Though you are right about heroic slash. Other morph is fine, but heroic was just nerfed to be used by PVE tanks...

Sorcerer was immortal during 1.6. That was the only time in history where I always laughed about opponents hoping to duel a magicka sorcerer. Never have I seen one loose to another class during that time. We were truly godlike.

But that was years ago and survivability has been absolutely atrocious since a long time. Everyone with normal way of thought can easily deal with them. But some people will never quit whining about sorcerers.
EDIT: Ball of lightning spammers are an issue for all ranged magicka classes and yes, it is a nuisance, overpowered and I hope this morph gets completely reworked.

Rikumaru

I would take old heroic anyday over new dizzying.

ElvenVeil

Mostly I just find it stupid saying dizzy is a stacked skill because it has snare and stun now.. dizzy has 1/3 of the normal amount of stun a normal char can have when patch goes live and got a snare as replacement.. So are you trying to say snare is stronger than stun and you would replace your stun with a snare if you could? I assume the answer would be no, because anything else would be crazy in a pvp context. So if no, then stop trying to say dizzy is loaded now when it traded its reliable stun for a snare in the time it cannot stun.

Ofc if you just zerg it is a different story, but from a solo perspective it has 100% been nerfed. I have used dizzy since they butchered s/b, but now 2h is basically just a buff bar / execute to me. I would not run the new dizzy, it is simply not good enough with an unreliable stun.

MincVinyl

Expert wrote: »

They once said Heroic Slash was overloaded and it had led to a big nerf across the board. We lost Defile on Reverb so we're unable to counterplay the healing power we face today.

But they did bring Dizzy swing to the point it's more overloaded than Heroic Slash in which they nerfed.

No matter how many times you block a Dizzy, roll a dizzy, you're going to take much more until you go down because it's also a very cheap skill.

Some of the best combos are , dizzy la + dizzy la + dizzy +la until they're 60% health do a med heavy into onslaught into execute execute execute execute. (That was only 3 skills for offense)

Comparing this kind of gameplay to magicka, Is there a magicka toon that can play with just 3 offensive skills? That's unheard of, we require 5+ skills and the skills also cost more than Stamina.

That's just my input, Zenimax allowed this. Just saying, they said Heroic Slash is overloaded and then they're making Dizzy swing as the new heroic slash except it's better and more overloaded. (Actual pepegas)

In terms of power fantasy, a 2 handed sword ability known as Rally can heal you.
a 2 handed ability known as dizzy swing has a sticky substance and can snare you from a metal sword, and stun of course. 2 CC's packed in one skill
a 2 handed ability can help you sustain, and boost your overall tank build to do 10% extra damage.
Then u can do extra damage in ur heavy attacks and giving you more sustain back than you spent on dizzy swing for how cheap it is.
Then the most obvious one, It can be spammed very efficiently as it no longer requires a full second of cast time.

This 2h weapon line has quiet a lot of firepower , I only have a problem with 2h execute doing premature damage before registering, and dizzy swing hitting as hard as it does for spamming one button and eliminating class combinations as it's no longer needed.

Onslaught is cheaper ultimate, is faster to use, and lands on people with much higher tooltip numbers and give you full penetration.

1. Zos nerfed s&b with the intention that it should be the tanking choice for a weapon skill line (i dont agree with this logic, but thats zos for ya)

2. Generally if you let anyone parse on you it will hurt, since dizzy is setup to be slow timed direct burst blocking is literally the easy any class available counter. All you need to do is learn how to block cancel abilities and you shut down a dizzy build.

3. Dizzy has always been a one skill wonder, but the issue is that it is braindead easy to land. Before elsweyr dizzy had two aim checks, this made it more of a skill shot which rewarded players with skillful movement and aim. back then it also did a knockup with 26% more damage. Note that nobody back then complained about it because it was so much harder to use.

4. To say there are no builds out there that can function with only 2-3 damage skills is a silly argument. Ive seen templars who can function pretty much off of debuffs and jabs alone.

5. Mag skills costing more is just how the game is setup
-Stam builds suffer little inclass options in general, where mag gets alot of inclass options in general
-Stam gets alot of out of class options in general, where mag doesn't
-Mag builds max stat generally, which works with high costs and constant main recovery
-Stam builds damage generally, which works with low costs and inconsistent main recovery(block,sprint)
[regen works on 2 sec intervals, if you happen to block/sprint at the wrong time you lose a full 1500-2500 avg main recov]

6. The snare they introduced is a joke, it does not help at all and hinders the dizzy playstyle. At no point in 5 years have i run a snare on my dizzy build, because it is an incentive for players to roll when they want to move in a direction. Also if you noticed the snare can only apply when an enemy has the offbalance cooldown. Meaning itll take 8 sec after you first hit a target to be able to snare them.

7. Again dizzy lost 26% damage, but gained offbalance(10% damage when applied) and the ability for quick easy spam. Note alot of stam players could already grab the offbalance buff through cp already so it wasn't really a 10% gain back from what was lost.

8. The changes to dizzy and onslaught were out of the blue during elsweyr. It is sad to see dizzy nerfed to the ground all because they for some reason wanted 2h to have a corrosive copycat ult. Not to mention that onslaught prior to elsweyr was a unique ultimate, now there is nothing really like it anymore in the game. Currently dbos and onslaught are such a close choice I swap between them between fights depending what is needed.

Dracane

MincVinyl wrote: »

Expert wrote: »

They once said Heroic Slash was overloaded and it had led to a big nerf across the board. We lost Defile on Reverb so we're unable to counterplay the healing power we face today.

But they did bring Dizzy swing to the point it's more overloaded than Heroic Slash in which they nerfed.

No matter how many times you block a Dizzy, roll a dizzy, you're going to take much more until you go down because it's also a very cheap skill.

Some of the best combos are , dizzy la + dizzy la + dizzy +la until they're 60% health do a med heavy into onslaught into execute execute execute execute. (That was only 3 skills for offense)

Comparing this kind of gameplay to magicka, Is there a magicka toon that can play with just 3 offensive skills? That's unheard of, we require 5+ skills and the skills also cost more than Stamina.

That's just my input, Zenimax allowed this. Just saying, they said Heroic Slash is overloaded and then they're making Dizzy swing as the new heroic slash except it's better and more overloaded. (Actual pepegas)

In terms of power fantasy, a 2 handed sword ability known as Rally can heal you.
a 2 handed ability known as dizzy swing has a sticky substance and can snare you from a metal sword, and stun of course. 2 CC's packed in one skill
a 2 handed ability can help you sustain, and boost your overall tank build to do 10% extra damage.
Then u can do extra damage in ur heavy attacks and giving you more sustain back than you spent on dizzy swing for how cheap it is.
Then the most obvious one, It can be spammed very efficiently as it no longer requires a full second of cast time.

This 2h weapon line has quiet a lot of firepower , I only have a problem with 2h execute doing premature damage before registering, and dizzy swing hitting as hard as it does for spamming one button and eliminating class combinations as it's no longer needed.

Onslaught is cheaper ultimate, is faster to use, and lands on people with much higher tooltip numbers and give you full penetration.

5. Mag skills costing more is just how the game is setup
-Stam builds suffer little inclass options in general, where mag gets alot of inclass options in general
-Stam gets alot of out of class options in general, where mag doesn't
-Mag builds max stat generally, which works with high costs and constant main recovery
-Stam builds damage generally, which works with low costs and inconsistent main recovery(block,sprint)
[regen works on 2 sec intervals, if you happen to block/sprint at the wrong time you lose a full 1500-2500 avg main recov]

I always found this to be a silly argument. Why need alot of options when a handful of abilities is so easy and effective, that you have no need for anything else? All that stamina classes need is dizzying swing, vigor, execute and one utility magicka dump from their class lines.

Magicka has options but most are gimmicky and elaborate to execute together. Stamina is way more efficient than magicka despite having less options from classes.

ecru

I play stam and I agree, it sucks and it's boring. I used to have a build that incorporated four different dots, plus two axe bleeds, but they nerfed all of those, and now even my DK dots are incredibly weak, so I'm 100% reliant on dizzy to do anything, especially against templar purges or the ridiculous warden auto purge. What used to be class identity in the form of great backloaded damage that could get even better when using Corrosive (since it made dots bypass resists) is now weak damage that is barely worth having on your bar. My class used to have at least some identity, but it's been completely gutted and reduced to a few weapon skills and an ult, with the rest just being filler to keep me alive or passives to make those two weapon skills do more damage.

Should Dizzy be nerfed? Well, if it was, stam would be mostly garbage, besides Templars I guess. The real solution is clearly to make class abilities more attractive than weapon skills, but ZOS has done a poor job in a lot of cases. Take a look at the recent change to Stone Giant, which has made it worse in terms of actual damage output and awkward to use, due to the cast time and the aoe portion which will be reduced by major evasion. Why would I ever slot that?

To be fair though, heroic bash weaving was OP, especially with an ult like Corrosive. Your damage output shot through the *** roof while maiming your opponent and also being able to defile them, in a time where heals weren't nearly as good as they are now. It was pop corrosive, heroic LA bash until they're dead, and even DK dots were better back then. Heavy was better too. That whole meta was good for stam, but backwards in the way that it worked because 1h/shield was a better choice for damage than other skill lines.

tl;dr buff other skills and people won't use dizzy so much, or they certainly won't care as much if it's nerfed.

MincVinyl

Dracane wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

Expert wrote: »

They once said Heroic Slash was overloaded and it had led to a big nerf across the board. We lost Defile on Reverb so we're unable to counterplay the healing power we face today.

But they did bring Dizzy swing to the point it's more overloaded than Heroic Slash in which they nerfed.

No matter how many times you block a Dizzy, roll a dizzy, you're going to take much more until you go down because it's also a very cheap skill.

Some of the best combos are , dizzy la + dizzy la + dizzy +la until they're 60% health do a med heavy into onslaught into execute execute execute execute. (That was only 3 skills for offense)

Comparing this kind of gameplay to magicka, Is there a magicka toon that can play with just 3 offensive skills? That's unheard of, we require 5+ skills and the skills also cost more than Stamina.

That's just my input, Zenimax allowed this. Just saying, they said Heroic Slash is overloaded and then they're making Dizzy swing as the new heroic slash except it's better and more overloaded. (Actual pepegas)

In terms of power fantasy, a 2 handed sword ability known as Rally can heal you.
a 2 handed ability known as dizzy swing has a sticky substance and can snare you from a metal sword, and stun of course. 2 CC's packed in one skill
a 2 handed ability can help you sustain, and boost your overall tank build to do 10% extra damage.
Then u can do extra damage in ur heavy attacks and giving you more sustain back than you spent on dizzy swing for how cheap it is.
Then the most obvious one, It can be spammed very efficiently as it no longer requires a full second of cast time.

This 2h weapon line has quiet a lot of firepower , I only have a problem with 2h execute doing premature damage before registering, and dizzy swing hitting as hard as it does for spamming one button and eliminating class combinations as it's no longer needed.

Onslaught is cheaper ultimate, is faster to use, and lands on people with much higher tooltip numbers and give you full penetration.

5. Mag skills costing more is just how the game is setup
-Stam builds suffer little inclass options in general, where mag gets alot of inclass options in general
-Stam gets alot of out of class options in general, where mag doesn't
-Mag builds max stat generally, which works with high costs and constant main recovery
-Stam builds damage generally, which works with low costs and inconsistent main recovery(block,sprint)
[regen works on 2 sec intervals, if you happen to block/sprint at the wrong time you lose a full 1500-2500 avg main recov]

I always found this to be a silly argument. Why need alot of options when a handful of abilities is so easy and effective, that you have no need for anything else? All that stamina classes need is dizzying swing, vigor, execute and one utility magicka dump from their class lines.

Magicka has options but most are gimmicky and elaborate to execute together. Stamina is way more efficient than magicka despite having less options from classes.

Well generally speaking, mag toons get damage through timed windows easier, where if you want to run something like a dizzy build your burst is solely on that one hit. It will be disgusting what stamcros will be doing with blastbones and dizzy/snipe. There is something really powerful when it comes to being able to time abilities to all hit simultaneously. A good player utilizing timed abilities can easily beat out a similar player using a dizzy burst window. If a receiving player can live through a dizzy burst, typically there is not much that the dizzy player can do extra. If you go and duel with dizzy this will be pretty clear.

You can put the same argument that templars really only need jabs, RapRegen, and radiant(or just more jabs), if you want to spin it that way. Alot of builds in the game boil down to only using a single spammable now or running dots if you find that fun and engaging.

TheUndeadAmulet

I wish I could use dual wield over 2h as a stamsorc but that would mean losing the burst that is effectively required to kill people. If dw was buffed so that I could pressure people to death as effectively as 2h burst people to death I would switch in an instant.

GeorgeBlack

SnB was overloaded and deserved all nerfs.
The mistake Zos made was to make a shield hit move deal dmg instead of a sword hit move.
Now it looks stupid.


Uppercut was a fine ability for those skilled.
Difficult to land but rewarding due to the CC and dmg.
Is should be left alone years ago. Some players wasted the moment to CC the enemy, resulting in defeat.
Others knew how to use it resulting in strength.

Iskiab

Why would S&B be a weapon damage line? It’s a good thing it was nerfed, it’s a tanking line.

That’s like complaining resto staves aren’t good dps weapons, and defile should be added to resto light attacks.

ecru

TheUndeadAmulet wrote: »

I wish I could use dual wield over 2h as a stamsorc but that would mean losing the burst that is effectively required to kill people. If dw was buffed so that I could pressure people to death as effectively as 2h burst people to death I would switch in an instant.

Flurry is undertuned compared to Dizzy, which is part of why dual wield sucks so much. It should be roughly equal damage IMO, especially since the only secondary effect is a heal. Right now Dizzy does 15% more damage than Flurry, and gives off balance, so the choice is obvious. Rending is also terrible and only barely becomes viable with master dw. Without master dw, it's a total joke and a complete waste of a bar slot. If flurry and rending got a decent buff, it might be worth using again, but honestly it looks like ZOS really hates the idea of dots being worthwhile, so I dunno how likely that is.

Crixus8000

Iskiab wrote: »

Why would S&B be a weapon damage line? It’s a good thing it was nerfed, it’s a tanking line.

That’s like complaining resto staves aren’t good dps weapons, and defile should be added to resto light attacks.

Yeah because swords aren't for doing damage right ? xd

I don't see how you can compare an actual damage weapon to something that does healing.

Swords are a tanking line in pve, but pvp and pve are different, and limiting choice for dumb reasons like this just makes the game worse and less fun imo. Reverb giving 10 seconds of major defile was clearly too good but the rest of snb was fine imo, it's just at the time other weapon lines lacked, not that snb was too good. Many still ran 2h at the time for example and if dw was better then many would have been using that too.

xWarbrain

Expert wrote: »

Comparing this kind of gameplay to magicka, Is there a magicka toon that can play with just 3 offensive skills? That's unheard of, we require 5+ skills and the skills also cost more than Stamina.


Also, buff meteor.

It cost 170 ultimate, takes 2 seconds, and then lands on people with Major Evasion maimed by 25%. nice

Onslaught is cheaper ultimate, is faster to use, and lands on people with much higher tooltip numbers and give you full penetration.

Magden can effectively run 3 offensive skills - Deep Fissure/Fetcher/Spammable

Meteor costs 200 ultimate, gives resources & regen for being on the bar and can have the damage potential to one shot most players. If they're translucent, don't try to drop Meteor on them, choose a different target...

Onslaught, on the other hand, you can roll dodge away from.