How much of Western Skyrim are we actually getting?

Ratzkifal

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Yes there will likely be the worship of Dagon in the city but here is the thing. Going by the lore https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Reachmen

They primarily worship Hircine, the most primal of the Daedric Princes, although some clans are said to also dedicate ceremonies to Molag Bal, Malacath, Mehrunes Dagon, and Namira.[3][4] Their shamans venerate the Hagraven "matrons", who in turn grant them knowledge of nature magic.[
After the Soulburst in 2E 579, many Reachmen aligned themselves with Molag Bal, and remained powerful enough to launch attacks on the Ebonheart Pact and Daggerfall Covenant's territories, even attacking as far afield as the Rift and Glenumbra.[7] Concurrently, one clan of Reachmen known as the Winterborn fought a lengthy war with the Orcs for control of Wrothgar after King Kurog gro-Bagrakh reestablished Orsinium in the region.

So the lore does say Molag Bal has a large sway over the Reachmen during this time period. Not only that but The Despot of Markarth was in League with Manimarco and the Reachmen were helping the Worm Cult and Molag Bal. So I doubt Dagon is primary worshiped by the Reachmen in Markarth as Molag Bal obviously has the most influence followed by Namira who is also a corrupting influence and the influence is still felt centuries later as there was a Shrine of Molag Bal found in one of the Homes in Markarth in tes 5. Not only the shrine that is most telling about the influence but also Markarth was Neck deep in Corruption including corrupt guards, corrupt merchants/politicians and then an entire coven of Cannibals that corrupted decent folks and also dogs too by feeding them humanoid flesh. >.<
Lore wise Molag Bal is Domination but hes also Corruption and corruption thus falls under his dominion as one of his goals is the Corruption of Mortals. Got a lot of that going around in Markarth in the 4th era. So that is the biggest reason why he would hold sway not Dagon.


Personally I think Mehrunes Dagon has more influence and followers within the Pale and possibly Dawnstar. Not only was the Mythic Dawn Musiem there but also that huge Shrine to Dagon. Which looks old and could even exist in this time period https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Shrine_of_Mehrunes_Dagon . Given the name of Dawn within the Cults name, it could have even originated within the Dawnstar region and might be one of the reasons why the Hall of the Vigilant was set up near the Shrine of Dagon. If they do Dawnstar. I can see Mehrunes Dagon and his followers being part of the overall story or coming across the precursor to the Mythic Dawn Cult that almost brought Tamriel to its Knees.

Lady Cinnabar of Taneth is alive during ESO's time so the book she wrote must be considered very recent. Which means the information on the cult of Dagon in Markarth is also very very recent.
The shrine of Molag Bal in Markarth of the 4th era is not a very strong argument in my opinion as it could have been built there at any time really. It also would have been noticed way sooner if it was present this early. The only reason this could hold up would be ZOS nostalgia baiting us again, which to be fair is likely although not very plausible in my opinion.
The cannibals are part of the Namira cult, most likely leftovers of the Hagfeather Coven. They certainly having nothing to do with Molag Bal's influence because that's not the kind of corruption he is after. Namira revels in disgust and revulsion, so breaking societal taboos is how you worship her. (In my headcanon, this would mean eating plants for a Bosmer in Valenwood.)
Furthermore the Reachmen are not a very unified people, not even under Leovic. They have a lot of different tribes focusing on worshipping different daedra and while some Reach tribes definitely followed Molag Bal and Mannimarco by proxy, this can't be extrapolated to all of them. Neither the Dreadhorn clan nor the Winterborn were really working with Mannimarco and they didn't worship Molag Bal either. Although we know the Despot of Markarth and Mannimarco had "business" together, it's not exactly clear what that business was, only that as a result the source of this information was then given to Mannimarco and ultimately freed by Vanus. For all we know, the Despot could be a Dagon worshipper as well and Mannimarco negotiated a truce between the Wormcult and him rather than full on support of the planemeld endeavor like with the Reachmen we saw in the Rift and Glenumbra.

Considering the Reachmen are a matriarchical society, it's only natural that they would accept "the Markarth Sister" as their matrons. The wyrd covens are essentially indistinguishable from the reachmen when they worship the more feral aspects of Hircine or other Daedra entirely, like Dagon, Namira or Bal except that they usually don't live together. Usually.
Here we have powerful practitioners of nature magic, the wyrd, in a city of Reachmen and you are telling me that they are not going to see them as their spiritual leaders? The Despot being their worldy leader. I would be very surprised if it ends up being a city of Molag Bal worshippers that have a Dagon cult among them that's just chilling and minding their business when usually the wyrd live secluded from everyone but themselves. They honestly wouldn't have put that info about the Markarth Sisters worshipping Dagon out there if their intention wasn't for the city of Markarth to be run by Dagon worshippers, especially if the worship of Molag Bal wouldn't be out of question for the wyresses there. But instead they decided the Bal worshipping Wyrd are in Morthal, which is where we are going first, so my guess is our business with Molag Bal will be settled there and then we go kick some Dagon worshipper butt in Q4.

On Dawnstar ... (spoiler because it's not in Western skyrim and thus not topic of the thread)

That Dawnstar is connected to Mehrunes Dagon is unlikely. According to Arena the town got it's name due to its reputation for "greeting the sun as it begins its journey" whatever that means. My guess is that the mythic dawn and earlier Dagon cultists went to Dawnstar because they liked the name due to these similarities but there are actually no connections between Mehrunes Dagon and Dawnstar beyond that. I'd think that Dagon having "sway" over it would be an exaggeration.
Regardless, whatever the possible connections between Dawnstar and Dagon are, they don't really affect the situation in the Reach at all, so it's not exactly an exclusion criterion for Markarth being full of Dagon worshippers even if Dawnstar is run by Dagon himself.

The main reason I don't see Dagon and Bal cults getting along too smoothly is because Dagon takes the side of the oppressed in a liberating bloody revolution while Bal takes the side of the oppressors. Of course from a Reachman perspective they have currently enough common grounds to work together, with them being the underdogs that want to oppress others, but it's clear from the start that in the end these two will have to fight again and settle the score. In a way it's similar to how radical anarchists and communists both agree in their dislike for the system but their goals are mutually exclusive.

tomofhyrule

One thing that I'm confused about...

So the chapter is Hjaalmarch/Haafingar (and the rumors are the Reach for Q4 DLC), but then Blackreach is supposed to be a big part of it. But Blackreach is nowhere near them, at least in Skyrim.

Blackreach is under mostly the Pale and Winterhold, which are not part of anything.

...so how are we dealing with that? Are they expanding Blackreach to be under all of Skyrim, and then blocking off the bit that we know from TES:V? Unlikely, since the bit that's been shown on PTS does look like a portion of the Blackreach we know.

Ratzkifal

tomofhyrule wrote: »

One thing that I'm confused about...

So the chapter is Hjaalmarch/Haafingar (and the rumors are the Reach for Q4 DLC), but then Blackreach is supposed to be a big part of it. But Blackreach is nowhere near them, at least in Skyrim.

Blackreach is under mostly the Pale and Winterhold, which are not part of anything.

...so how are we dealing with that? Are they expanding Blackreach to be under all of Skyrim, and then blocking off the bit that we know from TES:V? Unlikely, since the bit that's been shown on PTS does look like a portion of the Blackreach we know.

@tomofhyrule The whole setting of this year's chapter is "what if blackreach was actually a lot bigger than what we saw in TESV". There is more, unexplored, blackreach under Morthal and Solitude and that's where we are going.
The portion of blackreach we know is just part of the pre-quest leading up to the chapter, but we won't get much of it and probably no familiar location. We don't even know if there will be proper Falmer as they have been very hesitant in talking about them. Perhaps, just like the Akaviri, they will be behind a closed door we can't get behind.

Thevampirenight

tomofhyrule wrote: »

One thing that I'm confused about...

So the chapter is Hjaalmarch/Haafingar (and the rumors are the Reach for Q4 DLC), but then Blackreach is supposed to be a big part of it. But Blackreach is nowhere near them, at least in Skyrim.

Blackreach is under mostly the Pale and Winterhold, which are not part of anything.

...so how are we dealing with that? Are they expanding Blackreach to be under all of Skyrim, and then blocking off the bit that we know from TES:V? Unlikely, since the bit that's been shown on PTS does look like a portion of the Blackreach we know.

That is exactly what they are doing the Area they are adding will be below Solitude and Morthal. Which will have a Vampire city plus other areas that are explorable. Greymoor will be the name of the Underground Vampire City from what I understand. So their thought process here what if it extended across all of Skyrim? They said something about this in the Greymoor Reveal Stream.

It makes sense that it does because all those Falmer have to move from Dwemer ruin to caves to Dwemer ruins and they also got access to the Forgotten Vale somehow and Black Reach Extending across whole Provence explains all of this. So that is what they are doing they making it so Black Reach exists throughout all of Skyrim. However we will get to see some parts of Old Black Reach with next update. They did say we might get some Falmer but we won't see them in the prologue Blackreach . I think the main focus of the Solitude/Morthal Black Reach will have to do with that Underground Vampire City. I think we might see some Falmer mobs but that might be all we see of them.

tomofhyrule

Ratzkifal wrote: »

@tomofhyrule The whole setting of this year's chapter is "what if blackreach was actually a lot bigger than what we saw in TESV". There is more, unexplored, blackreach under Morthal and Solitude and that's where we are going.
The portion of blackreach we know is just part of the pre-quest leading up to the chapter, but we won't get much of it and probably no familiar location. We don't even know if there will be proper Falmer as they have been very hesitant in talking about them. Perhaps, just like the Akaviri, they will be behind a closed door we can't get behind.

Ah, ok...thanks. I was scared they were really going lore-breaking with this. I'm okay with a bigger Blackreach that we don't necessarily know all about.

I know people have been talking a lot about ladders into Blackreach, so I was nervous that the entire thing would just be hand waved. Then again, I guess I shouldn't be jumping to conclusions yet.

Nomadic_Atmoran

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Yes there will likely be the worship of Dagon in the city but here is the thing. Going by the lore https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Reachmen

They primarily worship Hircine, the most primal of the Daedric Princes, although some clans are said to also dedicate ceremonies to Molag Bal, Malacath, Mehrunes Dagon, and Namira.[3][4] Their shamans venerate the Hagraven "matrons", who in turn grant them knowledge of nature magic.[
After the Soulburst in 2E 579, many Reachmen aligned themselves with Molag Bal, and remained powerful enough to launch attacks on the Ebonheart Pact and Daggerfall Covenant's territories, even attacking as far afield as the Rift and Glenumbra.[7] Concurrently, one clan of Reachmen known as the Winterborn fought a lengthy war with the Orcs for control of Wrothgar after King Kurog gro-Bagrakh reestablished Orsinium in the region.

So the lore does say Molag Bal has a large sway over the Reachmen during this time period. Not only that but The Despot of Markarth was in League with Manimarco and the Reachmen were helping the Worm Cult and Molag Bal. So I doubt Dagon is primary worshiped by the Reachmen in Markarth as Molag Bal obviously has the most influence followed by Namira who is also a corrupting influence and the influence is still felt centuries later as there was a Shrine of Molag Bal found in one of the Homes in Markarth in tes 5. Not only the shrine that is most telling about the influence but also Markarth was Neck deep in Corruption including corrupt guards, corrupt merchants/politicians and then an entire coven of Cannibals that corrupted decent folks and also dogs too by feeding them humanoid flesh. >.<
Lore wise Molag Bal is Domination but hes also Corruption and corruption thus falls under his dominion as one of his goals is the Corruption of Mortals. Got a lot of that going around in Markarth in the 4th era. So that is the biggest reason why he would hold sway not Dagon.


Personally I think Mehrunes Dagon has more influence and followers within the Pale and possibly Dawnstar. Not only was the Mythic Dawn Musiem there but also that huge Shrine to Dagon. Which looks old and could even exist in this time period https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Shrine_of_Mehrunes_Dagon . Given the name of Dawn within the Cults name, it could have even originated within the Dawnstar region and might be one of the reasons why the Hall of the Vigilant was set up near the Shrine of Dagon. If they do Dawnstar. I can see Mehrunes Dagon and his followers being part of the overall story or coming across the precursor to the Mythic Dawn Cult that almost brought Tamriel to its Knees.

Lady Cinnabar of Taneth is alive during ESO's time so the book she wrote must be considered very recent. Which means the information on the cult of Dagon in Markarth is also very very recent.
The shrine of Molag Bal in Markarth of the 4th era is not a very strong argument in my opinion as it could have been built there at any time really. It also would have been noticed way sooner if it was present this early. The only reason this could hold up would be ZOS nostalgia baiting us again, which to be fair is likely although not very plausible in my opinion.
The cannibals are part of the Namira cult, most likely leftovers of the Hagfeather Coven. They certainly having nothing to do with Molag Bal's influence because that's not the kind of corruption he is after. Namira revels in disgust and revulsion, so breaking societal taboos is how you worship her. (In my headcanon, this would mean eating plants for a Bosmer in Valenwood.)
Furthermore the Reachmen are not a very unified people, not even under Leovic. They have a lot of different tribes focusing on worshipping different daedra and while some Reach tribes definitely followed Molag Bal and Mannimarco by proxy, this can't be extrapolated to all of them. Neither the Dreadhorn clan nor the Winterborn were really working with Mannimarco and they didn't worship Molag Bal either. Although we know the Despot of Markarth and Mannimarco had "business" together, it's not exactly clear what that business was, only that as a result the source of this information was then given to Mannimarco and ultimately freed by Vanus. For all we know, the Despot could be a Dagon worshipper as well and Mannimarco negotiated a truce between the Wormcult and him rather than full on support of the planemeld endeavor like with the Reachmen we saw in the Rift and Glenumbra.

Considering the Reachmen are a matriarchical society, it's only natural that they would accept "the Markarth Sister" as their matrons. The wyrd covens are essentially indistinguishable from the reachmen when they worship the more feral aspects of Hircine or other Daedra entirely, like Dagon, Namira or Bal except that they usually don't live together. Usually.
Here we have powerful practitioners of nature magic, the wyrd, in a city of Reachmen and you are telling me that they are not going to see them as their spiritual leaders? The Despot being their worldy leader. I would be very surprised if it ends up being a city of Molag Bal worshippers that have a Dagon cult among them that's just chilling and minding their business when usually the wyrd live secluded from everyone but themselves. They honestly wouldn't have put that info about the Markarth Sisters worshipping Dagon out there if their intention wasn't for the city of Markarth to be run by Dagon worshippers, especially if the worship of Molag Bal wouldn't be out of question for the wyresses there. But instead they decided the Bal worshipping Wyrd are in Morthal, which is where we are going first, so my guess is our business with Molag Bal will be settled there and then we go kick some Dagon worshipper butt in Q4.

On Dawnstar ... (spoiler because it's not in Western skyrim and thus not topic of the thread)

That Dawnstar is connected to Mehrunes Dagon is unlikely. According to Arena the town got it's name due to its reputation for "greeting the sun as it begins its journey" whatever that means. My guess is that the mythic dawn and earlier Dagon cultists went to Dawnstar because they liked the name due to these similarities but there are actually no connections between Mehrunes Dagon and Dawnstar beyond that. I'd think that Dagon having "sway" over it would be an exaggeration.
Regardless, whatever the possible connections between Dawnstar and Dagon are, they don't really affect the situation in the Reach at all, so it's not exactly an exclusion criterion for Markarth being full of Dagon worshippers even if Dawnstar is run by Dagon himself.

The main reason I don't see Dagon and Bal cults getting along too smoothly is because Dagon takes the side of the oppressed in a liberating bloody revolution while Bal takes the side of the oppressors. Of course from a Reachman perspective they have currently enough common grounds to work together, with them being the underdogs that want to oppress others, but it's clear from the start that in the end these two will have to fight again and settle the score. In a way it's similar to how radical anarchists and communists both agree in their dislike for the system but their goals are mutually exclusive.

Your argument hinges on one line of information. The same amount of information that anyone arguing Molag Bal is the deity the Reachmen worship.

And this is ZOS we are talking about. If you go read up on the Aldmeri Dominion there is information out there that tells you its only been around for a few years. Meanwhile in Bleakrock it appears some AD scouts time travelled 10 years into the past to spy on the village there. The scouts were then unfortunately killed in a cave-in a decade prior to the events of ESO. ZOS doesn't always stick with the lore they put out there. Just look at how they've tried to alter Abnur Tharns involvement in the Worm Cult. Treating him as a reluctant participant turned remorseful hero rather than the opportunistic sleazeball he is originally portrayed as. His dialogue is still quite condescending but its no where near as obnoxious as the Main Quest of the base game. They want you to like him, or at least not hate him as much as they originally wished. ZOS also has issues with remembering characters they created, who reside in areas they originally intended them to exist. General Vayne Redoran is the commander of the Vivec City Garrison according to letters of commendation and reprimand we can find in Dhalmora and Bleackrock Isle. Yet he is not present on Vvardenfell.

There is absolutely a chance that ZOS will forget the Markarth Sisters are in Markarth, or that they worship Mehrunes Dagon or that they are supposed to even be daedric worshipping bad guys.

naturebased

If Elsweyr is any indication dont expect the middle slice anytime soon