Stamina Necromancer has too much damage mitigation.

MCBIZZLE300

Stamina necromancers, particually using black rose dual weild or sword and board have way too much damage mitigation. 10% from spirit mender, 3% from bitter harvest (and morphs of) 8% from temporal guard combined with block or black rose. Now I know I'm going to recieve the counter productive ''L2P'' comments but I really think they are over performing from a defense standpoint. Certain builds seem impossible to kill in a 1v1 while keeping you defiled and having sustained damage. Does anyone else agree? Personally I think the offensive kit for stamcro is fine but the defensive kit carries way too much mitigation. Given that blast bones is going to work to its full potential (maybe) I think their tool kit needs to be looked at.

Thogard

Reminds me of wardens and healing back when morrowind had just come out.

Mortal coil c’mon now

Iskiab

MCBIZZLE300 wrote: »

Stamina necromancers, particually using black rose dual weild or sword and board have way too much damage mitigation. 10% from spirit mender, 3% from bitter harvest (and morphs of) 8% from temporal guard combined with block or black rose. Now I know I'm going to recieve the counter productive ''L2P'' comments but I really think they are over performing from a defense standpoint. Certain builds seem impossible to kill in a 1v1 while keeping you defiled and having sustained damage. Does anyone else agree? Personally I think the offensive kit for stamcro is fine but the defensive kit carries way too much mitigation. Given that blast bones is going to work to its full potential (maybe) I think their tool kit needs to be looked at.

Maybe you’re right, IDK. Personally I think they should make sure blastbones works so you don’t have to fire it at point blank range, then adjust as needed. In the grand scheme of things some things will always overperform so it’s better for ZoS to be conservative with nerfing it and then adjust it.

I’d rather ZoS maybe buffs MagDK a bit and magblade personally. I hate seeing magsorcs and snipe spammers get away with pure glass builds in Cyro because NBs have been over nerfed, and MagDK being weak has made it so there’s no downside to vampire.

katorga

All classes have some niche they can push to the discomfort of other classes.

Everyone complains about what the other guy has and tries to get them nerfed. Result, this meta has lots of ruined classes.

FWIW, necros don't need BRP DW.

MCBIZZLE300

Iskiab wrote: »

MCBIZZLE300 wrote: »

Stamina necromancers, particually using black rose dual weild or sword and board have way too much damage mitigation. 10% from spirit mender, 3% from bitter harvest (and morphs of) 8% from temporal guard combined with block or black rose. Now I know I'm going to recieve the counter productive ''L2P'' comments but I really think they are over performing from a defense standpoint. Certain builds seem impossible to kill in a 1v1 while keeping you defiled and having sustained damage. Does anyone else agree? Personally I think the offensive kit for stamcro is fine but the defensive kit carries way too much mitigation. Given that blast bones is going to work to its full potential (maybe) I think their tool kit needs to be looked at.

Maybe you’re right, IDK. Personally I think they should make sure blastbones works so you don’t have to fire it at point blank range, then adjust as needed. In the grand scheme of things some things will always overperform so it’s better for ZoS to be conservative with nerfing it and then adjust it.

I’d rather ZoS maybe buffs MagDK a bit and magblade personally. I hate seeing magsorcs and snipe spammers get away with pure glass builds in Cyro because NBs have been over nerfed, and MagDK being weak has made it so there’s no downside to vampire.

This would be fine if they did an update every 2 weeks but its months and months untill things are changed.

WreckfulAbandon

At a minimum they usually have Mortal Carry Crutch Coil and Spirit Mender 100% uptime, throw in some Vigor and Rally, this enables purge spam that Templars could only dream of thanks to Expunge which costs less than 2k health. These 4 heals are usually just a minimum, we could get into Deaden Pain too if you want.

To say nothing of unnamed % reductions in damage and Major Defile on combo skill. Yeah, partially thanks to other classes getting continuously punched in the ***, stamnecro is entirely OP.

exeeter702

katorga wrote: »

All classes have some niche they can push to the discomfort of other classes.

Everyone complains about what the other guy has and tries to get them nerfed. Result, this meta has lots of ruined classes.

FWIW, necros don't need BRP DW.

Agree about necros with brp dw

IlCanis_LupuslI

I had a 1v1 with a emp(stam dk) well it started as a 3vs3.
After 15 min we gave up. He couldn't get me low and I definetly couldn't get him low(2nd Time I've ever played necro in pvp) ....
Its the general lack of damage in pvp which is frustrating. Without dots it almost impossible to pressure anyone. It's usually down to a drastic numerical advantage if you want to kill an, halfwhat experienced player.
On the necro the damage is nice in pve but in pvp the infamous blast bones don't work most of the time.
Just my 2 ct

exeeter702

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

I had a 1v1 with a emp(stam dk) well it started as a 3vs3.
After 15 min we gave up. He couldn't get me low and I definetly couldn't get him low(2nd Time I've ever played necro in pvp) ....
Its the general lack of damage in pvp which is frustrating. Without dots it almost impossible to pressure anyone. It's usually down to a drastic numerical advantage if you want to kill an, halfwhat experienced player.
On the necro the damage is nice in pve but in pvp the infamous blast bones don't work most of the time.
Just my 2 ct

I've found that unless you are building yourself into a niche dot focused corner, dots are not going to contribute anywhere close to enough pressure so long as hots remain where they are at.

I know blast bones is getting a nice qol buff, but I have not had too many issues with the skill unless I'm dealing with numerous layers of elevation.

Honestly blastbones shouldnt require a target, instead, when you activate the skill, the skeleton should remain at your side similar to a pet, and then it charges at the first target you deal direct damage to.

oneway123

Meh, imo it’s not the defensive skills that are a prob, it’s healing in general on certain classes. Battle spirit: all class healing skills reduced by 15% or cost increased by 20% I think would be better then more changes to skills. My 2 cents. And those % could be adjusted as needed!

wheem_ESO

BRP dual wield has needed a nerf for quite some time, and I think it's silly that it didn't get changed at the same time that Pirate Skeleton and...whatever that 5 piece heavy armor set is called, did.

If ZOS doesn't do something about the secondary effects on Blastbones, I'm thinking we're going to end up with the Warden situation all over again; Stamina will be OP, and end up causing class nerfs that will affect the Magicka side of the class even more. Other than a gimmicky Harmony build, offense-focused Magicka Necromancer is actually pretty bad, and I'd rather not see it become even worse due to Stamina builds being able to utilize all the best aspects of the class (except for Resistant Flesh and Renewing Undeath), while having drastically superior tools available from the generic Stamina toolkit, vs the generic Magicka one.

Even if the Major Defile on Stamina-Blast Bones gets removed (which it should), I think Stam Necro will be strong, and certainly have better offense than their Magicka counterparts while still maintaining better mobility and arguably better survivability.

dazee

katorga wrote: »

All classes have some niche they can push to the discomfort of other classes.

Everyone complains about what the other guy has and tries to get them nerfed. Result, this meta has lots of ruined classes.

FWIW, necros don't need BRP DW.

Agreed 1000%. Mortal coil is really only gonna be used on tanks if people are going for max effectiveness for their role anyway. the meta chasers and top 1-2% of the game tend to ruin it for everyone else with their demands for nerfs to any class they dont even play.

WreckfulAbandon

katorga wrote: »

All classes have some niche they can push to the discomfort of other classes.

Everyone complains about what the other guy has and tries to get them nerfed. Result, this meta has lots of ruined classes.

FWIW, necros don't need BRP DW.

Yeah, stamnecro does have a niche my dude, it's called "having too many heals combined with too many mitigation options."

Also known as "doesn't even need to crutch on BRP DW."

And basically has a free purge with amount of heals per second possible.

And we're not even discussing offensive kit here.

I'd recommend thinking really hard before trying to obfuscate further, it wouldn't be too difficult to make a definitive list to illustrate how overperforming necro's defensive kit is. Complete with Mortal Coil tooltips, approximate uptime of Major Protection, approximate Heals per second. It's not going to illustrate what you would like it to.

KillsAllElves

Buff all damage abilities by 25% to 35% (including DOTs) to counterbalance the over healing and resistance stacking.

Balance in pvp is extremely lop sided.

MCBIZZLE300

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

All classes have some niche they can push to the discomfort of other classes.

Everyone complains about what the other guy has and tries to get them nerfed. Result, this meta has lots of ruined classes.

FWIW, necros don't need BRP DW.

Yeah, stamnecro does have a niche my dude, it's called "having too many heals combined with too many mitigation options."

Also known as "doesn't even need to crutch on BRP DW."

And basically has a free purge with amount of heals per second possible.

And we're not even discussing offensive kit here.

I'd recommend thinking really hard before trying to obfuscate further, it wouldn't be too difficult to make a definitive list to illustrate how overperforming necro's defensive kit is. Complete with Mortal Coil tooltips, approximate uptime of Major Protection, approximate Heals per second. It's not going to illustrate what you would like it to.

agree, i was going to reply to the niche comment with pretty much the same.

juhislihis19

I have to agree. They are extremely tanky. The also got 15% damage reduction against DoTs, so no reason to "apply pressure". That is if already crappy DoTs would harm anyone in the first place.

ZOS could just buff the damage but they won't.

And they sure as hell won't nerf Necro, because it's their cash cow now. Necro HAS to be above every other class. Keeping Necro the most appealing class = more money. If anything I expect totally unexpected, uncalled buffs to Necro in the future.

wheem_ESO

juhislihis19 wrote: »

I have to agree. They are extremely tanky. The also got 15% damage reduction against DoTs, so no reason to "apply pressure". That is if already crappy DoTs would harm anyone in the first place.

ZOS could just buff the damage but they won't.

And they sure as hell won't nerf Necro, because it's their cash cow now. Necro HAS to be above every other class. Keeping Necro the most appealing class = more money. If anything I expect totally unexpected, uncalled buffs to Necro in the future.

People said things like this a few years ago about the Warden class, but then - as now - it really only applied to the Stamina variant. It's like people sometimes forget that Magicka even exists. Elsweyr was released for PC's early access right around 9 months ago now, and Magicka Necro has been a buggy, underpowered mess for that entire period of time. It's basically the jankiest and most unreliable class I ever remember playing in an MMO.

Imagine if your Vigor sometimes worked just fine, and other times didn't heal at all. You trigger the ability, which uses up your resources and a global cooldown + causes the animation to happen, but you actually receive 0 healing over the full duration. Now lets say that it happened 7 times in a row. Congratulations, you now have a copy of the Magicka Necromancer's Intensive Mender "pet" over the past 9 months. Enjoy your $40.

leepalmer95

Oh yeah stamcro is like playing a different game. You dont' even need to actively evade as much dmg as possible you can straight up just tank everything.

It's already meta as it is, next patch when you can relaibly hit people with blastbones every 3s. whew. My god.

katorga

dazee wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

All classes have some niche they can push to the discomfort of other classes.

Everyone complains about what the other guy has and tries to get them nerfed. Result, this meta has lots of ruined classes.

FWIW, necros don't need BRP DW.

Agreed 1000%. Mortal coil is really only gonna be used on tanks if people are going for max effectiveness for their role anyway. the meta chasers and top 1-2% of the game tend to ruin it for everyone else with their demands for nerfs to any class they dont even play.

The other aspect to think about is that all of this enables Magcro to be barely viable.

Rahar

It's not just a stamina necromancer problem, regardless of how much they can take advantage of it -- it's a game design problem. There's too much passive mitigation nowadays. BRP, spirit mender, temporal guard, offensive heavy armor sets, bloodspawn, major evasion, and skills like grim focus etc. etc. provide too much damage reduction just for slapping them on and pressing the buff button.

Combine that with increasing health pools from newer sets and scaling CP and decreasing sources of countering this mitigation such as defile and you get Dragonhold.

JSTCH

MCBIZZLE300 wrote: »

Stamina necromancers, particually using black rose dual weild or sword and board have way too much damage mitigation. 10% from spirit mender, 3% from bitter harvest (and morphs of) 8% from temporal guard combined with block or black rose. Now I know I'm going to recieve the counter productive ''L2P'' comments but I really think they are over performing from a defense standpoint. Certain builds seem impossible to kill in a 1v1 while keeping you defiled and having sustained damage. Does anyone else agree? Personally I think the offensive kit for stamcro is fine but the defensive kit carries way too much mitigation. Given that blast bones is going to work to its full potential (maybe) I think their tool kit needs to be looked at.

I agree necro is way too thankyou especially when running the tether. I’m going to take a break until the necro meta is over. I’m sick of running into tanks that deal massive damage and spam defile.

olsborg

+ blastbones too good. 100% major defile uptime and high dmg on it.

olsborg

JSTCH wrote: »

MCBIZZLE300 wrote: »

Stamina necromancers, particually using black rose dual weild or sword and board have way too much damage mitigation. 10% from spirit mender, 3% from bitter harvest (and morphs of) 8% from temporal guard combined with block or black rose. Now I know I'm going to recieve the counter productive ''L2P'' comments but I really think they are over performing from a defense standpoint. Certain builds seem impossible to kill in a 1v1 while keeping you defiled and having sustained damage. Does anyone else agree? Personally I think the offensive kit for stamcro is fine but the defensive kit carries way too much mitigation. Given that blast bones is going to work to its full potential (maybe) I think their tool kit needs to be looked at.

I’m sick of running into tanks that deal massive damage and spam defile.

Yup

precambria

Another thread about stamcro that is as much about other things than stam necro, OP cited temporal guard, BRP DW, S&B and block as reasons why stamcro was *too tanky* all of which can be used on literally any class that has as many if not more defensive stats and tools.

The problem is more that they can do huge burst damage and that comes from dizzy swing on a target with major defile and or vuln, the majority of a necro offensive kit is not really usable, the defensive passives are good, 10% mender and 3% deaden pain which can give major prot (it's fairly impractical for mid combat, you cannot rely on a skill that might be greyed out and won't burst heal you to stay alive), Passive dot dmg taken reduction is actually huge a lot of damage is still technically dots, passive healing received is substantial, getting free HP from passive, insane crit heals

Nobody here seems to really know the class well enough to have figured out what they are even struggling with, I am a stamcro main let me help you.

Tether, why is this spell the one that changes everything, because of the crit healing passive, when a necro gets low their heals start to crit very reliably so that is vigor mender and tether all crit healing pretty much at once giving the illusion of tankiness. The actual healing and sustain from the tether is nice, but damn it SUCKS to use this it breaks on LoS and just randomly all the time and it is frequently greyed out and requires recasting buffs using GCD and mana just to get it for a second. Things like undeath, resist sets and other things that synergize well with that are not really a necro related topic, why than is it ok to mention dizzy swing so much? because that is what is killing you and I am very willing to bet the people who are most upset about stam cro are running it too, you are not going to win vs somebody who can brawl for longer and effectively has a 30% advantage and it stings, it's how everyone else feels fighting against something they have no answer for because it's overtuned.

OK so it becomes hard to kill them, than what, what is it they do that makes them a threat, major defile yes but without that they would not exist at all, the reason a necro needs to be so tanky is they have NO mobility tools, NO CC, and really just ONE offensive non ult ability that is specific to the class that anyone uses. If you are a necro who is stam that does not spam dizzy swing you better be ready to play the most off meta build you can imagine and get constantly trained into the ground, if you are a magro you have one trick and the rest of the time there is NO way in hell you could stay alive without all the tools given within the class.

I can see how other stam classes who crutch off of dizzy swing are salty about the fact major defile and free pen from passive is better than what they have, but for literally everyone else it's a struggle to play a class that was so poorly designed for PVP despite having very strong ults and passives the whole logic behind their kit is completely bunk, the over tuned abilities like graves are just a sign of that being the case, basically it's zos trying to throw a bone to players who want to PVP with a failed class that should be reworked completely.

ps: full disclosure I don't run dizzy swing build, I can tell you right now if there was no major defile it would be completely impossible to kill anything ever, the only way defile is going to get looked at is if necro gets a CC and dizzy gets brought in line either via nerfs or buffs to the other trees which would be preferable, the tankiness is going to stay because it is the most immobile class there is there is not even a gap closer

H.

TimeDazzler

The purge needs to have its health cost increased drastically. 2K health is literally one tick of vigor if one has proper champion points and good gear on. Should cost like 4K health and that’s still cheap imo. Obviously blast bones shouldn’t major defile, and all those 3% benefits that necromancer gets for slotting abilities in its kit need to be removed.

precambria

Cries wrote: »

The purge needs to have its health cost increased drastically. 2K health is literally one tick of vigor if one has proper champion points and good gear on. Should cost like 4K health and that’s still cheap imo. Obviously blast bones shouldn’t major defile, and all those 3% benefits that necromancer gets for slotting abilities in its kit need to be removed.

SO basically delete the class from the game, CP pvp is irrelevant it's impossibly imbalanced and should not exist, funny enough I actually agree with you they should FULLY rework necromancer I would trade any and all overpowered things for a class design that makes sense in a second.

Lole

Cries wrote: »

The purge needs to have its health cost increased drastically. 2K health is literally one tick of vigor if one has proper champion points and good gear on. Should cost like 4K health and that’s still cheap imo. Obviously blast bones shouldn’t major defile, and all those 3% benefits that necromancer gets for slotting abilities in its kit need to be removed.

Someone trying to kill necro here i guess

precambria

I would still rather play warden than necro, expunge is NOTHING compared to netch that gives you the most desired buff and can purge forever for nothing and providing all the sustain to support those extra dmg enchants, 2% dmg from every animal spell one of which gives you major expedition and minor berzerk, an actual class dot er sorry 2 class dots, 10% HP piles of resists, snare resist, better team support skills ect ect, it's just a better class, still needs work though some of those animations are super glitched.

Give necro a real playstyle other than just casting blastbone and doing what everyone else is doing, those 3% passive on those abilities are extracted from the passives that other classes get all the time and attached to spells which are not enjoyable and often not viable to use. I go on warden it's hard to chose which of the amazing kit to use, I go on necro and it's hard to force myself to use class spells in order to activate the passives which actually help survive the other classes which have them by default. It's not balanced well at all, but that can not be solved by nerfs it needs to be fixed, any nerfs to necro right now is beating an already injured class who's shortcomings are part of it's core design being flawed.

montiferus

It is a broken class where you don't need to be remotely good to have even a modicum of success. The level of survivability built into their kit is atrocious.

This happens every patch/class release where one particular class is significantly better than all of the others. You see the same mediocre players making the switch to said class because they need an advantage. Same old song.

oxygen_thief

MCBIZZLE300 wrote: »

I really think they are over performing from a defense standpoint.

of course they are. who will bother to buy a not op class? zos will nerf it later to sell a new one

OrderoftheDarkness

Cries wrote: »

The purge needs to have its health cost increased drastically. 2K health is literally one tick of vigor if one has proper champion points and good gear on. Should cost like 4K health and that’s still cheap imo. Obviously blast bones shouldn’t major defile, and all those 3% benefits that necromancer gets for slotting abilities in its kit need to be removed.

A good Stamcro that relies on hots will refuse to purge. Why deprive yourself of the opportunity to use the minor mending embedded in passive? You cling to things when you don't know what they look like in general. For magcro, purge is very good. You suggest emptying the magcro to a greater extent.
P. S. This is really funny. Who says that the class is broken, most likely does not play bg. Go there and see which classes are more common. Only bg can recreate the largest number of battle simulations and all possible synergies between classes and it's epic.

katorga wrote: »

All classes have some niche they can push to the discomfort of other classes.

Everyone complains about what the other guy has and tries to get them nerfed. Result, this meta has lots of ruined classes.

FWIW, necros don't need BRP DW.

I think with some builds, BRP and Necro can be very good. I don't have a BRP to have fun with