useless bows....

Joinovikova

Can someone from ZOS DEVS explain why you nerf and made bows setup totaly useless..? just because some children cried about snipe? or why? in PVE instantly get kicked because using bow ... in high mmr tank meta bg not even near to be competitive to others setup. Only in Cyro hard lags bow can be use...or bow are here in game only for set up DOT?

Raisin

"in PVE instantly get kicked because using bow"

There is more to that story.

Taleof2Cities

@L2Pissue do you have any comment on the OP’s opening remarks?

MudcrabAttack

OP were you kicked for the bow build?

My lowest DPS archer character is about 25% behind my highest DPS melee character, but I wouldn't call bows useless, necessarily. I run the slow DPS archer most of the time and haven't heard any complaints.

Does weaving the bow light attacks suck? Yeah.
Does the only spammable that works well with bow snare you and slow you down? Yeah.
Have the guild skills that once made bow builds amazing been nerfed hard? Yeah.

I'm almost tempted to defend bows and say they work great. And mention that you can still finish most of the content with a bow. More slowly. Also I would mention that once in a while you'll find yourself hitting a boss from long distance while the group is held back by some annoying mechanic. Or quickly taking down important targets from a long distance and saving the group from the hassle of waiting on a melee character to run back and forth.

After all, I could also mention, people are running vet hard mode with bow/bow, so it can't be all that bad, right?

But it's pretty bad for other reasons. Bows actually do suck for a whole lot of people. New people mostly, but also people with a crappy router. You really need to land those bow light attacks for hawk eye buffs, and the weaving needs to be done quickly.

They absolutely are the worst front bar weapon a new player with below average skill and crappy internet could ever start with in this game. It's why the default answer for DPS questions is to go with the meta build since you have the highest chance of success with it.

L2Pissue

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

@L2Pissue do you have any comment on the OP’s opening remarks?

As zenimax announced that lag has been(and will remain) a major aspect of Cyrodiil since the "lightning patch" in 2015, it has been advised by the dev team and streamers to run a bow in Cyrodiil to benefit from health de-sync

Also the dev's inability to properly adjust animation cancelling and the toxic elitists and streamers refuse getting rid of it makes the bow(with AC) more viable option to achieve one goal: reducing the number of players in PvP in exclusive, and ESO playerbase in general
so far the plan is working, will update this thread if proven otherwise

5cript

The reason bow players seemingly get kicked (I never did) is because they usually have a warped sense of how certain things work. They often stand very far away from the group with their big range, spam the channeled bow ability and die in a corner with mediocre or bad dps, and the healer has to run back and forth between the tank and other dd and the bow player to heal and apply buffs.

This is my experience with bow/bow players. A lot of them aren't very good. So I get the discrimination.
Not to defend it, I usually only start to get cranky after dying the 20th time on a boss due to enrage timers and dps checks.
(I mostly heal or tank in PvE, because queueing solo as DD is pointless. - using buff sets ofc, but thats doesn't fix bad players)

Joinovikova

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

@L2Pissue do you have any comment on the OP’s opening remarks?

I am not main bow class but in pve not possible to be even near to my other magica ranged builds. First snipe mean instant kick. F.e compare to my pet mag sorc( who get brutal nerf) even I play 100% focus on AC am still 18% behind my relax mag sorc. So I nearly not able to pass dps requirements and also on mag class I have shields so Ian able to survive many of situation in bow I need to invest all to glass cannon . In compare to Stam mele it’s like compare blue and gold in pvp it’s hell to play in bow especially on my Stam blade. It simply not possible to kill heavy tanks mainly mag Templar other class is possible to stack all rebuff and hope he do not care you but Templar’s need to use cleanse and heal and I am not able to even hurt them it’s litlle boring to play current unbalanced game. and I tryied all possible set ups. When I play on others classes bow users are for me free kills it like hunting prey . I meet just one bow player who was able to competitive play thanks to unexpected zaan last months . I think bow set up should be competitive.

idk

The bow has been used by most stam builds for years. There have been times in the past couple years where a bow/bow build was even viable for PvE high end raiding. Alcast has at least two bow/bow builds for PvE that he has even used in vet Sunspire.

TwiceBornStar

Necromancer + Morag Tong + Deadly Strike + Bow = Pretty Badass?

stevenyaub16_ESO

50k on a 6mill is plenty for most content. Range is favourable in many situations and boss mechanics.

Melee shines when you can turret but nearly all the hardest raids favour range. Good stams should be able to switch between both.

Septimus_Magna

TwiceBornStar wrote: »

Necromancer + Morag Tong + Deadly Strike + Bow = Pretty Badass?

Necromancer is probably the most viable class for a ranged stamina build because you can use Venom Skull, Blastbones and Colossus from a distance. Especially with the fixed/improvement to Blastbones next update it should work pretty well.

Joinovikova

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

50k on a 6mill is plenty for most content. Range is favourable in many situations and boss mechanics.

Melee shines when you can turret but nearly all the hardest raids favour range. Good stams should be able to switch between both.

But mostly pve guild require 60k on 6mil ...

MashmalloMan

Joinovikova wrote: »

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

50k on a 6mill is plenty for most content. Range is favourable in many situations and boss mechanics.

Melee shines when you can turret but nearly all the hardest raids favour range. Good stams should be able to switch between both.

But mostly pve guild require 60k on 6mil ...

How does that make any sense.. Are they giving you major and minor fracture? Are they giving you synergies to use if you're using Lokkestiiz? Are they giving you minor berserk? Are they giving you minor brutality? There is very few setups that can sustain and hit 60k dps solo with the same build they would use in a competent trial group.

Find another guild if they're requiring you to hit 60k solo on a 6mil, thats a pretty awful way to check what someone is capable of when not every class has every tool available in a raid and I doubt you're setting yourself up with all those buffs, thats why the raid dummy was introduced in the first place.

Edit: I understand it can be done, but what are the odds they're actually jumping through those hoops when a raid dummy is available. It makes me think your statement is false or your guild is being silly.

SirAndy

MashmalloMan wrote: »

How does that make any sense.. Are they giving you major and minor fracture? Are they giving you synergies to use if you're using Lokkestiiz? Are they giving you minor berserk? Are they giving you minor brutality? There is very few setups that can sustain and hit 60k dps solo with the same build they would use in a competent trial group.
Find another guild if they're requiring you to hit 60k solo on a 6mil, thats a pretty awful way to check what someone is capable of when not every class has every tool available in a raid and I doubt you're setting yourself up with all those buffs, thats why the raid dummy was introduced in the first place.
Edit: I understand it can be done, but what are the odds they're actually jumping through those hoops when a raid dummy is available. It makes me think your statement is false or your guild is being silly.

Didn't you get the memo?

The new definition of "solo" is:
With friends applying buffs/debuffs for me so i can show off my inflated epeen on the forums

Krayl

60k req on a 6m when the content is mostly all the same as it was when people were beating stuff with 25-30k

Find a different guild that values people who perform and listen and organize and don't just hope to stack and burn every encounter.

MashmalloMan

SirAndy wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

How does that make any sense.. Are they giving you major and minor fracture? Are they giving you synergies to use if you're using Lokkestiiz? Are they giving you minor berserk? Are they giving you minor brutality? There is very few setups that can sustain and hit 60k dps solo with the same build they would use in a competent trial group.
Find another guild if they're requiring you to hit 60k solo on a 6mil, thats a pretty awful way to check what someone is capable of when not every class has every tool available in a raid and I doubt you're setting yourself up with all those buffs, thats why the raid dummy was introduced in the first place.
Edit: I understand it can be done, but what are the odds they're actually jumping through those hoops when a raid dummy is available. It makes me think your statement is false or your guild is being silly.

Didn't you get the memo?

The new definition of "solo" is:
With friends applying buffs/debuffs for me so i can show off my inflated epeen on the forums

It's just not realistic to rely on that dummy when every class has access to different buffs/debuffs that you get in a trial when it matters.

That reminds me of the inflated parses from NBs back in the day that had Minor Savagery, Major Fracture, Minor Endurance and Minor Berserk as a part of their basic rotation. People would use those parses as ammo to try and get them nerfed when in reality, where it really mattered, they were probably not that far ahead other classes when in a group. I guess those people won, because they lost Minor Endurance, Major Fracture and Minor Berserk.

It was very underwhelming to play as a Stam Sorc, not understanding that those parses were inflated because we only had access to buffs that everyone had access to through Potions. I have a feeling OP is using 6 mil solo dummy parses as their unit of measurement if they're concerned about 60k 6mil dummy parses.

Also, I've never once been kicked from a pug group for running anything I wanted simply upon joining the group. I'm talking 4-5 years here. I've done stam healing, bow/bow builds, 2h/dw melee builds, it's very easy to surpass "bad dps" levels. Anything above 20k dps and people are surprised at how fast those dungeons go by.

There WAS a bad stigma against bow/bow builds like 3 years ago before Wardens were a thing, today, even more abilities and morphs have been made viable and available for bow/bow builds with Necro becoming another great bow/bow class. So I just fail to see the argument OP is trying to make.

redspecter23

I would never kick someone for using a bow build in PVE. I would, however, potentially kick someone for being absolutely horrible and unable to progress through the current dungeon, regardless of the build they are using. It's not about what weapon you're using. It's about how effective you are with that weapon. If you're blaming your constant kicks on your weapon choices, you may need to dig a little deeper to see the real issue.

SodanTok

Joinovikova wrote: »

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

50k on a 6mill is plenty for most content. Range is favourable in many situations and boss mechanics.

Melee shines when you can turret but nearly all the hardest raids favour range. Good stams should be able to switch between both.

But mostly pve guild require 60k on 6mil ...

Either you are confused or you are finding some pretty bad guild. No guild actually caring about dummy DPS as requirements would want people to do parse on 3/6mil dummy when trial dummy exists and has been the go to standard for everyone.

In any case your original issue is either l2p or toxic people. Bows are far from useless and can output DPS far above any veteran dungeon. So either you do bad dps or people are toxic and kicking you without actually knowing your dps.

Joinovikova

redspecter23 wrote: »

I would never kick someone for using a bow build in PVE. I would, however, potentially kick someone for being absolutely horrible and unable to progress through the current dungeon, regardless of the build they are using. It's not about what weapon you're using. It's about how effective you are with that weapon. If you're blaming your constant kicks on your weapon choices, you may need to dig a little deeper to see the real issue.

So Bows are on same level as magica randged or stamina mele builds? despite bow builds is not my main they should be valiable to ALL content include All VET Trials and not be 20% behind in dps, becuase there is simply not reason to have thing like that.

Joinovikova

SodanTok wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

50k on a 6mill is plenty for most content. Range is favourable in many situations and boss mechanics.

Melee shines when you can turret but nearly all the hardest raids favour range. Good stams should be able to switch between both.

But mostly pve guild require 60k on 6mil ...

Either you are confused or you are finding some pretty bad guild. No guild actually caring about dummy DPS as requirements would want people to do parse on 3/6mil dummy when trial dummy exists and has been the go to standard for everyone.

In any case your original issue is either l2p or toxic people. Bows are far from useless and can output DPS far above any veteran dungeon. So either you do bad dps or people are toxic and kicking you without actually knowing your dps.

So Bows are on same level as magica randged or stamina mele builds? despite bow builds is not my main they should be valiable to ALL content include All VET Trials and not be 20% behind in dps, becuase there is simply not reason to have thing like that. At lease they should be comparable to magica ranged builds..

msalvia

Given that pve stam dps basically need bow to be competitive, I'm calling BS on this "getting autokicked for using Bow business." Maybe if all you're doing is spamming LAs from behind the healer, but literally every stamdps in pve would get kicked if this were true. This seems like a gripe without a real reason, or there's more to this story.

msalvia

Joinovikova wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I would never kick someone for using a bow build in PVE. I would, however, potentially kick someone for being absolutely horrible and unable to progress through the current dungeon, regardless of the build they are using. It's not about what weapon you're using. It's about how effective you are with that weapon. If you're blaming your constant kicks on your weapon choices, you may need to dig a little deeper to see the real issue.

So Bows are on same level as magica randged or stamina mele builds? despite bow builds is notyou my main they should be valiable to ALL content include All VET Trials and not be 20% behind in dps, becuase there is simply not reason to have thing like that.

There's a perfectly good reason ranged is lower than melee--fighting from range SHOULD be a bit weaker than melee range. And if you're good at bow/bow, it IS viable for vet stuff. But, as always, you gotta be able to pull it off.

Freakin_Hytte

TwiceBornStar wrote: »

Necromancer + Morag Tong + Deadly Strike + Bow = Pretty Badass?

I have a medium-close range bow/bow build for cyro. It's pretty strong, having major/minor defile up 100% is nice. Will be even stronger next patch, only problem is that you need pots to get major brutality. But it's a fun build overall.

Brandathorbel

my warden bow/bow can handle his own.

Brandathorbel

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

TwiceBornStar wrote: »

Necromancer + Morag Tong + Deadly Strike + Bow = Pretty Badass?

I have a medium-close range bow/bow build for cyro. It's pretty strong, having major/minor defile up 100% is nice. Will be even stronger next patch, only problem is that you need pots to get major brutality. But it's a fun build overall.

this is one thing i am a bit surprised they haven't adjusted on necromancer is its lack of practically every major buff in its kit. Most other classes have access to a minimum of one, some two, but necro has zero.

I think and seems many, think the skeleton should give major brutality and sorc at its base. it makes sense.

MartiniDaniels

Yeah. There are basically 2 bows in the PVP - master's and potentates and first one is purged by half of the classes and 2nd one just plainly less effective then other backbars...

I'll start with making master's bow "debuff" unique and unpurgeable. I.e. it is triggered by poison injection but hangs on target for next 10 seconds no matter what..

fiender66

I'm currently raising a B/B stamplar (now at 39lvl), and she is amazing.
I tried the build on PTS before (some public dungeon and a pair of not so difficult overland monsters). It was really a good and fun one, not really on a par with my magplar, but close.
BTW, even if I know that it is not very popular, I found the healing morph of scattershot definitely useful, especially in long fights

BeamsForDemacia

i NEVER saw that someone was kicked for a build, probably deaths/really low dps/wipes but bow bow is definitly viable and will stay (ofc not bis but ok to complete everything)

kalunte

i've never been kicked from a 4ppl group for using bow bow, but i had issues back in the very early days of ESO with high end guilds, Baby face Bananas for those who can remember them..

anyway, bpw sucks because of the game's shape, let me explain:

-bows have passives that requires them to be at long range.
-game's healing requires ppl to be stacked.
-combat prayer requires the dds to be in front on the healer
-synergies are all but webs melee or "on target" (including ally)
-Bows AoE spammable is a conal AoE which need to be casted at range in order to hit multiple target while all others are somehow circle around the user => melee => pack
-Bow spamable is a casted ability which implies: cant be blockcasted, can be interrupted, and isnt better than a regular spammable because of the loss of LA.

yes, bows doesnt fit to this game even if they are still efficient in some mid-high trial groups. top simply cannot be reached with a bow in a proper high end trial.

ps: even if you managed to have a bow only raid group, it would troll tanks who also need AoE healing.

BeamsForDemacia

exception is ofc as where its very usefull , and u can use it on trash in ss for more safety

idk

Joinovikova wrote: »

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

50k on a 6mill is plenty for most content. Range is favourable in many situations and boss mechanics.

Melee shines when you can turret but nearly all the hardest raids favour range. Good stams should be able to switch between both.

But mostly pve guild require 60k on 6mil ...

Have you bothered to look at the Bow/Bow builds I pointed out above? I seriously doubt Alcast is going to use a bad dps build in vet Sunspire. In videos of both, he is pulling his weight % wise in the fight.