Zaan Change and Elfbane?

UntilValhalla13

Will Elfbane still be BiS for mag dks after the Zaan...tweak? I'm on console and would hate to waste trans stones on the jewelry if pfg would still be the best option.

Olupajmibanan

Elfbane was and will be a new option to consider, but definitely not bis in every scenario. There are encounters where you can't use extended durations to their full potential and might go with something else, e.g. PFG you mentioned.

And to your question, never ever buy/transmute things based on PTS patch notes. Always wait till live patch. I screwed myself once when they buffed an overland set during PTS, I bought and golded everything and then they nerfed it back just on live release patch.

MashmalloMan

This is what changed for Zaan + Elfbane:

1. 3440
2. 5160
3. 6880
4. 8600
5. 10320
6. 12,040 10,320
7. 13,760 10,320
8. 15,480 10,320
9. 17,200 10,320
10. 18,920 10,320

Total Damage: 111,800 86,000
Total DPS (max uptime on paper): 6,211 4,778

This is about a 23% damage nerf. Liko's parse of 90.6k with Zaan at 9,443 dps would drop to 7,276 dps. His total dps would be 88,477 with the new Zaan. Issue with the parse was wall of elements wasn't affected by elf bane, meaning the dps loss/gain is probably about the same.

Take that info how you will. Not sure what mDK is capable of with normal BiS sets. This is also against a target dummy. There isn't very many boses or mobs that will sit in ground based aoes for 15-23s.

kojou

Elfbane will still be good. 5 seconds to every DoT will still be a huge buff for Magicka DK.

The Zaan change was expected. Keep in mind it still buffs Grothdar as well. It just won't have the cheesy Zaan scaling anymore.

If you drop PFG then be prepared to make up for the sustain loss somewhere. Either a charged weapon, spell sym, or some combination.

jaws343

Plus, if I am understanding the patch notes, you will still get the extra ticks of damage the Elf Bane provides for Zaan. The only difference is that the extra ticks will not ramp up in damage and with remain at the power of your 5th tick of Zaan.

xWarbrain

kojou wrote: »

If you drop PFG then be prepared to make up for the sustain loss somewhere. Either a charged weapon, spell sym, or some combination.

Bit off topic but does Charged help with sustain somehow? Which status effect? I can see Infused + Absorb Magicka, but am I missing something with Charged?

Neoauspex

xWarbrain wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

If you drop PFG then be prepared to make up for the sustain loss somewhere. Either a charged weapon, spell sym, or some combination.

Bit off topic but does Charged help with sustain somehow? Which status effect? I can see Infused + Absorb Magicka, but am I missing something with Charged?

Combustion passive for DK

NBrookus

xWarbrain wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

If you drop PFG then be prepared to make up for the sustain loss somewhere. Either a charged weapon, spell sym, or some combination.

Bit off topic but does Charged help with sustain somehow? Which status effect? I can see Infused + Absorb Magicka, but am I missing something with Charged?

The Combustion passive on DK restores magicka or stamina when you apply Burning or Poisoned status', respectively. It does not have a cooldown.

Kaysha

jaws343 wrote: »

Plus, if I am understanding the patch notes, you will still get the extra ticks of damage the Elf Bane provides for Zaan. The only difference is that the extra ticks will not ramp up in damage and with remain at the power of your 5th tick of Zaan.

That's how I understand the notes, too.

TheUndeadAmulet

Kaysha wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Plus, if I am understanding the patch notes, you will still get the extra ticks of damage the Elf Bane provides for Zaan. The only difference is that the extra ticks will not ramp up in damage and with remain at the power of your 5th tick of Zaan.

That's how I understand the notes, too.

Meaning it's still super powerful, but not op.

Anhedonie

I mean you're just looking at 37k ticks instead of 50k ticks

CleymenZero

I think it won't make Elf Bane as interesting in a lot of scenario.

A rule of thumb could be (but not limited to) that if Siroria is good for that fight, it means it's stationary enough to use elf bane.

The other scenario are scenarios where you have to move a lot but the target doesn't.

Fighting the Eternal Servant in Naavintas HM is a scenario where you could probably benefit from Elf Bane since you'd haveore time on your front bar and less time spent dropping your dots.

Still doubt it'll be better than PFGD though. We'll see.

thadjarvis

Why does it compare to FG?

Siroria fight: it’s Elf vs MS?
Non-Siroria fight: its FG + Elf/MS/Succ/BSW?

Elfbane and another non-slayer set would have to each beat FG to drop it....?

MA doesn’t work for DK and pFG>moondancer

CleymenZero

thadjarvis wrote: »

Why does it compare to FG?

Siroria fight: it’s Elf vs MS?
Non-Siroria fight: its FG + Elf/MS/Succ/BSW?

Elfbane and another non-slayer set would have to each beat FG to drop it....?

MA doesn’t work for DK and pFG>moondancer

Unless you run false god on your frontbar, you're not looking at it properly...

Elf Bane has to be on the body meaning your front bar set could be many things but running false god on the frontbar just to get the bonus reduction on the frontbar is less productive so IF you'd run Elf Bane in a non-siroria fight, you have to consider either elf bane or false god.

I mean, that's not entirely correct but I hope you get the idea. Now running Elf Bane = longer dot duration but it doesn't mean better sustain because you'll be filling the space with more spammable...

I haven't done extensive testing of Elf Bane on PTS but I don't think it improved sustain at all. The AoE dot cost reduction did but you can definitely run out of gas so that's another reason why Elf Bane may just not overtake pFGD.

TLDR
1 - You have to pit Elf Bane vs other body sets, you can't frontbar it and get good results.
2 - When weighing it VS other sets, sustain will be a be a huge consideration

thadjarvis

Thanks for clarification. Makes sense. Hm getting minor slayer seems to be the bane of elf bane. I wonder if elf + moondancer front bar could be in the mix?

hamgatan

It still shouldn't have been nerfed that much.

7 stacks, not 5 would have been logical as currently Zaan is extended to 7 seconds with Elf Bane in its current form.

Gimping it to 5 is actually nerfing it's damage worse than it currently is..

robpr

Everybody just Zaan this, Zaan there. Grothdarr with 100% uptime will be just as juicy.

Darkenarlol

i'm kinda surprised that we have this reasonable fix

instead of butchering elf bane and zaan

Septimus_Magna

Everyone is thinking Zaan or Grothdarr but what about Molag Kena?

516 spell dmg is massive, especially for a 2pc bonus!
And the 5% cost increase could work with False God and Elf Bane.

Runefang

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Everyone is thinking Zaan or Grothdarr but what about Molag Kena?

516 spell dmg is massive, especially for a 2pc bonus!
And the 5% cost increase could work with False God and Elf Bane.

And triggering it is awful. You have to skip a skill.

Dracane

robpr wrote: »

Everybody just Zaan this, Zaan there. Grothdarr with 100% uptime will be just as juicy.

Grothdarr only deals roughly 44k damage in 18 seconds (Zaan cooldown) provided it is up all the time. Zaan deals almost twice that even with its cooldown. Zaan will not always proc on time however. I sometimes spam for 10 seconds and nothing happens.

Of course when it comes to AoE, it is an option. Although 2,4k damage per second is nothing you notice in terms of speed other than a nice little number in your recap.

CleymenZero

hamgatan wrote: »

It still shouldn't have been nerfed that much.

7 stacks, not 5 would have been logical as currently Zaan is extended to 7 seconds with Elf Bane in its current form.

Gimping it to 5 is actually nerfing it's damage worse than it currently is..

That's exactly what I though. They let current stack up to 7 and so should've let it stack up to 7 seconds and cap the damage at that for the remaining ticks.

CleymenZero

Runefang wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Everyone is thinking Zaan or Grothdarr but what about Molag Kena?

516 spell dmg is massive, especially for a 2pc bonus!
And the 5% cost increase could work with False God and Elf Bane.

And triggering it is awful. You have to skip a skill.

Yeah exactly. Ok for PvP but crap for PvE. Skipping 1 spammable every 5 seconds is actually detrimental to overall dps.

MashmalloMan

CleymenZero wrote: »

hamgatan wrote: »

It still shouldn't have been nerfed that much.

7 stacks, not 5 would have been logical as currently Zaan is extended to 7 seconds with Elf Bane in its current form.

Gimping it to 5 is actually nerfing it's damage worse than it currently is..

That's exactly what I though. They let current stack up to 7 and so should've let it stack up to 7 seconds and cap the damage at that for the remaining ticks.

How is that relevant at all. Are you seriously complaining that Zaan.. a monster set.. doesn't ramp up damage for an extra 5 seconds, but gets to keep the damage from the 5th stack up to 10s. Just be happy it wasn't completely destroyed. There is so many ways they could of gone about nerfing it.. a 23 % damage nerf is not a big deal and it's still better than live if you did the math.

hamgatan

no the point is the damage spread is the same as it currently is

Zaan + Elfbane Current

• 3440
• 5160
• 6880
• 8600
• 10320
• 12,040
• 13,760

TOTAL = 60,200 / 7 Sec = 8.6k DPS.

Zaan + Elfbane Pre-PTSNerf

• 3440
• 5160
• 6880
• 8600
• 10320
• 12,040
• 13,760
• 15,480
• 17,200
• 18,920

TOTAL = 111,800 / 10 Sec = 11.2k DPS

Zaan + Elfbane Post-PTSNerf

• 3440
• 5160
• 6880
• 8600
• 10320
• 12,040 10,320
• 13,760 10,320
• 15,480 10,320
• 17,200 10,320
• 18,920 10,320

TOTAL = 86,000 / 10 Sec = 8.6k DPS

There is NO extra incentive to run Zaan now with Elf Bane, other than the DoT being longer.

What it should be is a 7 stack max -

Zaan + Elfbane Harrowstorm Live

• 3440
• 5160
• 6880
• 8600
• 10320
• 12,040
• 13,760
• 15,480 13,760
• 17,200 13,760
• 18,920 13,760

TOTAL = 101,480 / 10 sec = 10.1k DPS - which is MUCH more in line with the DPS something like Relequen adds on an elite level parse.. (i can hit 9.5.. but theres guys that do 10+)

Runefang

hamgatan wrote: »

no the point is the damage spread is the same as it currently is

Zaan + Elfbane Current

• 3440
• 5160
• 6880
• 8600
• 10320
• 12,040
• 13,760

TOTAL = 60,200 / 7 Sec = 8.6k DPS.

Zaan + Elfbane Pre-PTSNerf

• 3440
• 5160
• 6880
• 8600
• 10320
• 12,040
• 13,760
• 15,480
• 17,200
• 18,920

TOTAL = 111,800 / 10 Sec = 11.2k DPS

Zaan + Elfbane Post-PTSNerf

• 3440
• 5160
• 6880
• 8600
• 10320
• 12,040 10,320
• 13,760 10,320
• 15,480 10,320
• 17,200 10,320
• 18,920 10,320

TOTAL = 86,000 / 10 Sec = 8.6k DPS

There is NO extra incentive to run Zaan now with Elf Bane, other than the DoT being longer.

What it should be is a 7 stack max -

Zaan + Elfbane Harrowstorm Live

• 3440
• 5160
• 6880
• 8600
• 10320
• 12,040
• 13,760
• 15,480 13,760
• 17,200 13,760
• 18,920 13,760

TOTAL = 101,480 / 10 sec = 10.1k DPS - which is MUCH more in line with the DPS something like Relequen adds on an elite level parse.. (i can hit 9.5.. but theres guys that do 10+)

You have to look at things holistically not just Zaan and Elf Bane together. Overall Elf Bane is a much better set than it was.

MashmalloMan

hamgatan wrote: »

no the point is the damage spread is the same as it currently is

Zaan + Elfbane Current

• 3440
• 5160
• 6880
• 8600
• 10320
• 12,040
• 13,760

TOTAL = 60,200 / 7 Sec = 8.6k DPS.

Zaan + Elfbane Pre-PTSNerf

• 3440
• 5160
• 6880
• 8600
• 10320
• 12,040
• 13,760
• 15,480
• 17,200
• 18,920

TOTAL = 111,800 / 10 Sec = 11.2k DPS

Zaan + Elfbane Post-PTSNerf

• 3440
• 5160
• 6880
• 8600
• 10320
• 12,040 10,320
• 13,760 10,320
• 15,480 10,320
• 17,200 10,320
• 18,920 10,320

TOTAL = 86,000 / 10 Sec = 8.6k DPS

There is NO extra incentive to run Zaan now with Elf Bane, other than the DoT being longer.

What it should be is a 7 stack max -

Zaan + Elfbane Harrowstorm Live

• 3440
• 5160
• 6880
• 8600
• 10320
• 12,040
• 13,760
• 15,480 13,760
• 17,200 13,760
• 18,920 13,760

TOTAL = 101,480 / 10 sec = 10.1k DPS - which is MUCH more in line with the DPS something like Relequen adds on an elite level parse.. (i can hit 9.5.. but theres guys that do 10+)

And your point is??

Everyone knew this was hitting slightly too hard with elf bane previously. This is what the pts is for, it's time to move on and be glad they didn't use the nerf drill instead of the nerf chisel this time around. Some people expected them to revert elf bane from affecting set procs which still doesn't make a ton of sense, but I'm not complaining and I like that this set has a unique interaction with sets. This is the best possible outcome in regards to an elf bane nerf.

Also, you're twisting the numbers to suit your liking. DPS is the same across the seperate 7 and 10s durations, but overall damage is going up by 26,000 on proc free vs live. The DPS over the 18s CD is higher than live so what do you have to complain about? What could of been? I'd like you to see my disappointment in Aegis Caller..

Relequen is a pretty awful comparison, this is a 2 piece monster set buffed by a 5 piece set that also buffs pretty much every ability on your 12 ability slots, so it's not like elf bane is only good with this set. Relequen also requires 20seconds and frequent upkeep of weaving to keep up which is a completely different upkeep then a random proc chance and staying in melee range.

The change makes sense and it's still very much a viable set combination.