Thought process? Does it exist?

llBlack_Heartll

Ok, so you gave Dizzy Swing and DK Whip an extra bonus outside of Off Balance, but completely ignored Cutting Dive.

How can something like that be over looked, or is Cutting Dive above your standards already? Like come on guys, so inconsistent.

red_emu

Because cutting dive doesn't depend on it's secondary effect to deal any damage at all?

Brandathorbel

red_emu wrote: »

Because cutting dive doesn't depend on it's secondary effect to deal any damage at all?

neither does dizzy or whip

Skjaldbjorn

Short Answer: No.

Long Answer: No, but it's not entirely Zenimax's fault. Warden's community is small, and a huge chunk of it is PVP-centric. That creates several issues. First and foremost, PVP players tend to bombard the forums for nerfs when they deem something broken or too strong, and so it results in a lot of rapid fluctuation that often nerfs PVE alongside PVP. Warden has been a victim of this a lot.

I imagine the core reason Warden's birds got no additional effect is because;
A. Wardens are low population and can't raise hell as loudly
B. Many view Warden as "broken" in PVP, so want them nerfed, and don't particularly care about their state in PVE
C. Warden supports are overbudgeted, so DPS seem to suffer for that

The issue is, Warden was actually balanced in PVE during Wrathstone. They were a top 2-3 DPS in PVE (at least for Stam, Mag needed work) and were actually in a real solid place contextually. They needed group utility, but that was about it. Instead of attempting to flesh the class and effectively rebudget some of the power from passives they wanted to transition away from, they essentially just gutted it.

I think at this stage they legitimately have no idea how to balance Warden, and they're more or less washing their hands of it. I assume nothing meaningful will change for Warden DPS barring a combat team change. Class reps seem to just get effing ignored when bringing up Warden changes.

The current combat team is too willing to listen to cries of "plz nerf" and refusing to take a short-term view to any changes they make. It's all massive, sweeping, ridiculous changes that they'll balance out "down the road". It's some of the worst game design I have ever seen, honestly.

Altyrann

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Short Answer: No.

Long Answer: No, but it's not entirely Zenimax's fault. Warden's community is small, and a huge chunk of it is PVP-centric. That creates several issues. First and foremost, PVP players tend to bombard the forums for nerfs when they deem something broken or too strong, and so it results in a lot of rapid fluctuation that often nerfs PVE alongside PVP. Warden has been a victim of this a lot.

I imagine the core reason Warden's birds got no additional effect is because;
A. Wardens are low population and can't raise hell as loudly
B. Many view Warden as "broken" in PVP, so want them nerfed, and don't particularly care about their state in PVE
C. Warden supports are overbudgeted, so DPS seem to suffer for that

The issue is, Warden was actually balanced in PVE during Wrathstone. They were a top 2-3 DPS in PVE (at least for Stam, Mag needed work) and were actually in a real solid place contextually. They needed group utility, but that was about it. Instead of attempting to flesh the class and effectively rebudget some of the power from passives they wanted to transition away from, they essentially just gutted it.

I think at this stage they legitimately have no idea how to balance Warden, and they're more or less washing their hands of it. I assume nothing meaningful will change for Warden DPS barring a combat team change. Class reps seem to just get effing ignored when bringing up Warden changes.

The current combat team is too willing to listen to cries of "plz nerf" and refusing to take a short-term view to any changes they make. It's all massive, sweeping, ridiculous changes that they'll balance out "down the road". It's some of the worst game design I have ever seen, honestly.

Do we still have class reps?

llBlack_Heartll

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Short Answer: No.

Long Answer: No, but it's not entirely Zenimax's fault. Warden's community is small, and a huge chunk of it is PVP-centric. That creates several issues. First and foremost, PVP players tend to bombard the forums for nerfs when they deem something broken or too strong, and so it results in a lot of rapid fluctuation that often nerfs PVE alongside PVP. Warden has been a victim of this a lot.

I imagine the core reason Warden's birds got no additional effect is because;
A. Wardens are low population and can't raise hell as loudly
B. Many view Warden as "broken" in PVP, so want them nerfed, and don't particularly care about their state in PVE
C. Warden supports are overbudgeted, so DPS seem to suffer for that

The issue is, Warden was actually balanced in PVE during Wrathstone. They were a top 2-3 DPS in PVE (at least for Stam, Mag needed work) and were actually in a real solid place contextually. They needed group utility, but that was about it. Instead of attempting to flesh the class and effectively rebudget some of the power from passives they wanted to transition away from, they essentially just gutted it.

I think at this stage they legitimately have no idea how to balance Warden, and they're more or less washing their hands of it. I assume nothing meaningful will change for Warden DPS barring a combat team change. Class reps seem to just get effing ignored when bringing up Warden changes.

The current combat team is too willing to listen to cries of "plz nerf" and refusing to take a short-term view to any changes they make. It's all massive, sweeping, ridiculous changes that they'll balance out "down the road". It's some of the worst game design I have ever seen, honestly.

They certainly need some kind of group utility, to make ppl want to have them in group.

ElvenVeil

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

The current combat team is too willing to listen to cries of "plz nerf" and refusing to take a short-term view to any changes they make. It's all massive, sweeping, ridiculous changes that they'll balance out "down the road". It's some of the worst game design I have ever seen, honestly.

We can only guess at their motivations, but it isn't my impression that they listen to the 'please nerf' much more than they do the 'buff this or that'. I think the combat team themselves just loves nerfing stuff, and we can see that on stuff like the off balance changes. Overall I don't really believe that they care what we write on the forum, unless something creates a really big uproar like the iceheart thingy. I do feel sorry for those people that go on to pts to test for bugs etc though. They put a lot of effort into it testing things, and in return they get completely ignored.

Skjaldbjorn

Altyrann wrote: »

Do we still have class reps?

Yes. They're just not class-specific.

MartiniDaniels

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Short Answer: No.

Long Answer: No, but it's not entirely Zenimax's fault. Warden's community is small, and a huge chunk of it is PVP-centric. That creates several issues. First and foremost, PVP players tend to bombard the forums for nerfs when they deem something broken or too strong, and so it results in a lot of rapid fluctuation that often nerfs PVE alongside PVP. Warden has been a victim of this a lot.

I imagine the core reason Warden's birds got no additional effect is because;
A. Wardens are low population and can't raise hell as loudly
B. Many view Warden as "broken" in PVP, so want them nerfed, and don't particularly care about their state in PVE
C. Warden supports are overbudgeted, so DPS seem to suffer for that

The issue is, Warden was actually balanced in PVE during Wrathstone. They were a top 2-3 DPS in PVE (at least for Stam, Mag needed work) and were actually in a real solid place contextually. They needed group utility, but that was about it. Instead of attempting to flesh the class and effectively rebudget some of the power from passives they wanted to transition away from, they essentially just gutted it.

I think at this stage they legitimately have no idea how to balance Warden, and they're more or less washing their hands of it. I assume nothing meaningful will change for Warden DPS barring a combat team change. Class reps seem to just get effing ignored when bringing up Warden changes.

The current combat team is too willing to listen to cries of "plz nerf" and refusing to take a short-term view to any changes they make. It's all massive, sweeping, ridiculous changes that they'll balance out "down the road". It's some of the worst game design I have ever seen, honestly.

Miracles don't exist, one class can't be good at everything. Stamdens are one of the best in PVP overall, magdens are beasts in group PVP and magdens are best healers in PVE, as well as wardens are solid PVE tanks. If you'll look at other classes, for example NB or DK or sorc, those have more narrow roles and applications. So "poor wardens" is bad argument. Class is good in everything with exception of PVE dps role. Not that big sacrifice for all the cookies imo, I'm sure NB, DK or sorc will happily switch some roles with warden.

SkysOutThizeOut

Necros, Magblades, mag Sorcs, Dks, are all performing better than wardens on average.

Skjaldbjorn

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Miracles don't exist, one class can't be good at everything. Stamdens are one of the best in PVP overall, magdens are beasts in group PVP and magdens are best healers in PVE, as well as wardens are solid PVE tanks. If you'll look at other classes, for example NB or DK or sorc, those have more narrow roles and applications. So "poor wardens" is bad argument. Class is good in everything with exception of PVE dps role. Not that big sacrifice for all the cookies imo, I'm sure NB, DK or sorc will happily switch some roles with warden.

I will gladly advocate to reduce PVP Warden strength and bring their PVE strength in line. I got no issues with that. When Stamden is behind a fair few mag DPS in PVE, there's a deep, deep problem. If they are so damn intent on this birds bleed (and it seems they are), at least link it to something we can viably control, like Minor Vuln. That requires us to use bugs, and transitions us more toward dot-focused builds that will weaken sub assault. Cap the stacks and let it proc when hitting a target affected by vuln.

MartiniDaniels

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Miracles don't exist, one class can't be good at everything. Stamdens are one of the best in PVP overall, magdens are beasts in group PVP and magdens are best healers in PVE, as well as wardens are solid PVE tanks. If you'll look at other classes, for example NB or DK or sorc, those have more narrow roles and applications. So "poor wardens" is bad argument. Class is good in everything with exception of PVE dps role. Not that big sacrifice for all the cookies imo, I'm sure NB, DK or sorc will happily switch some roles with warden.

I will gladly advocate to reduce PVP Warden strength and bring their PVE strength in line. I got no issues with that. When Stamden is behind a fair few mag DPS in PVE, there's a deep, deep problem. If they are so damn intent on this birds bleed (and it seems they are), at least link it to something we can viably control, like Minor Vuln. That requires us to use bugs, and transitions us more toward dot-focused builds that will weaken sub assault. Cap the stacks and let it proc when hitting a target affected by vuln.

I think PVP wardens will strongly disagree... because barely anybody uses cliff racer, but shalks are basement of burst both for stamden and magden. So it's not easy for ZOS to balance everything out.
And let's look at this patch:
- warden receives extra crit damage on chilled
- necro receives blastbones fix and cheaper boneyard
- sorc receives cheaper lighting splash and monkey
- templar received cheaper shards and blocking mitigation as compensation for removed snares which were useless anyway because jabs snare is more potent and comes when it needed more
- DK received pack of minor nerf-fixes to leap, volatile and wings
- NB received NOTHING, despite everybody crying class needed buff or at least removal of incap cast time

Now tell me, what classes are really poor and forgotten.

llBlack_Heartll

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Miracles don't exist, one class can't be good at everything. Stamdens are one of the best in PVP overall, magdens are beasts in group PVP and magdens are best healers in PVE, as well as wardens are solid PVE tanks. If you'll look at other classes, for example NB or DK or sorc, those have more narrow roles and applications. So "poor wardens" is bad argument. Class is good in everything with exception of PVE dps role. Not that big sacrifice for all the cookies imo, I'm sure NB, DK or sorc will happily switch some roles with warden.

I will gladly advocate to reduce PVP Warden strength and bring their PVE strength in line. I got no issues with that. When Stamden is behind a fair few mag DPS in PVE, there's a deep, deep problem. If they are so damn intent on this birds bleed (and it seems they are), at least link it to something we can viably control, like Minor Vuln. That requires us to use bugs, and transitions us more toward dot-focused builds that will weaken sub assault. Cap the stacks and let it proc when hitting a target affected by vuln.

I think PVP wardens will strongly disagree... because barely anybody uses cliff racer, but shalks are basement of burst both for stamden and magden. So it's not easy for ZOS to balance everything out.
And let's look at this patch:
- warden receives extra crit damage on chilled
- necro receives blastbones fix and cheaper boneyard
- sorc receives cheaper lighting splash and monkey
- templar received cheaper shards and blocking mitigation as compensation for removed snares which were useless anyway because jabs snare is more potent and comes when it needed more
- DK received pack of minor nerf-fixes to leap, volatile and wings
- NB received NOTHING, despite everybody crying class needed buff or at least removal of incap cast time

Now tell me, what classes are really poor and forgotten.

The chill proc is hardly a dps increase. With the weapon damage glyph and procing off Winters Revenge it was a 60% up time on chill.

With frost glyph it was 80% up time, but still pulled just about the same dps. Because you loose out on the weapon damage.

It’s a 2-3% increase in DPS on Average.

MartiniDaniels

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Miracles don't exist, one class can't be good at everything. Stamdens are one of the best in PVP overall, magdens are beasts in group PVP and magdens are best healers in PVE, as well as wardens are solid PVE tanks. If you'll look at other classes, for example NB or DK or sorc, those have more narrow roles and applications. So "poor wardens" is bad argument. Class is good in everything with exception of PVE dps role. Not that big sacrifice for all the cookies imo, I'm sure NB, DK or sorc will happily switch some roles with warden.

I will gladly advocate to reduce PVP Warden strength and bring their PVE strength in line. I got no issues with that. When Stamden is behind a fair few mag DPS in PVE, there's a deep, deep problem. If they are so damn intent on this birds bleed (and it seems they are), at least link it to something we can viably control, like Minor Vuln. That requires us to use bugs, and transitions us more toward dot-focused builds that will weaken sub assault. Cap the stacks and let it proc when hitting a target affected by vuln.

I think PVP wardens will strongly disagree... because barely anybody uses cliff racer, but shalks are basement of burst both for stamden and magden. So it's not easy for ZOS to balance everything out.
And let's look at this patch:
- warden receives extra crit damage on chilled
- necro receives blastbones fix and cheaper boneyard
- sorc receives cheaper lighting splash and monkey
- templar received cheaper shards and blocking mitigation as compensation for removed snares which were useless anyway because jabs snare is more potent and comes when it needed more
- DK received pack of minor nerf-fixes to leap, volatile and wings
- NB received NOTHING, despite everybody crying class needed buff or at least removal of incap cast time

Now tell me, what classes are really poor and forgotten.

The chill proc is hardly a dps increase. With the weapon damage glyph and procing off Winters Revenge it was a 60% up time on chill.

With frost glyph it was 80% up time, but still pulled just about the same dps. Because you loose out on the weapon damage.

It’s a 2-3% increase in DPS on Average.

And what will be chilled uptime with several people spamming elemental weapon in boss?

llBlack_Heartll

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Miracles don't exist, one class can't be good at everything. Stamdens are one of the best in PVP overall, magdens are beasts in group PVP and magdens are best healers in PVE, as well as wardens are solid PVE tanks. If you'll look at other classes, for example NB or DK or sorc, those have more narrow roles and applications. So "poor wardens" is bad argument. Class is good in everything with exception of PVE dps role. Not that big sacrifice for all the cookies imo, I'm sure NB, DK or sorc will happily switch some roles with warden.

I will gladly advocate to reduce PVP Warden strength and bring their PVE strength in line. I got no issues with that. When Stamden is behind a fair few mag DPS in PVE, there's a deep, deep problem. If they are so damn intent on this birds bleed (and it seems they are), at least link it to something we can viably control, like Minor Vuln. That requires us to use bugs, and transitions us more toward dot-focused builds that will weaken sub assault. Cap the stacks and let it proc when hitting a target affected by vuln.

I think PVP wardens will strongly disagree... because barely anybody uses cliff racer, but shalks are basement of burst both for stamden and magden. So it's not easy for ZOS to balance everything out.
And let's look at this patch:
- warden receives extra crit damage on chilled
- necro receives blastbones fix and cheaper boneyard
- sorc receives cheaper lighting splash and monkey
- templar received cheaper shards and blocking mitigation as compensation for removed snares which were useless anyway because jabs snare is more potent and comes when it needed more
- DK received pack of minor nerf-fixes to leap, volatile and wings
- NB received NOTHING, despite everybody crying class needed buff or at least removal of incap cast time

Now tell me, what classes are really poor and forgotten.

The chill proc is hardly a dps increase. With the weapon damage glyph and procing off Winters Revenge it was a 60% up time on chill.

With frost glyph it was 80% up time, but still pulled just about the same dps. Because you loose out on the weapon damage.

It’s a 2-3% increase in DPS on Average.

And what will be chilled uptime with several people spamming elemental weapon in boss?

Wardens aren’t used in group, because they bring nothing for anyone to benefit from.
So it wouldn’t matter.

satanio

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Miracles don't exist, one class can't be good at everything. Stamdens are one of the best in PVP overall, magdens are beasts in group PVP and magdens are best healers in PVE, as well as wardens are solid PVE tanks. If you'll look at other classes, for example NB or DK or sorc, those have more narrow roles and applications. So "poor wardens" is bad argument. Class is good in everything with exception of PVE dps role. Not that big sacrifice for all the cookies imo, I'm sure NB, DK or sorc will happily switch some roles with warden.

I will gladly advocate to reduce PVP Warden strength and bring their PVE strength in line. I got no issues with that. When Stamden is behind a fair few mag DPS in PVE, there's a deep, deep problem. If they are so damn intent on this birds bleed (and it seems they are), at least link it to something we can viably control, like Minor Vuln. That requires us to use bugs, and transitions us more toward dot-focused builds that will weaken sub assault. Cap the stacks and let it proc when hitting a target affected by vuln.

I think PVP wardens will strongly disagree... because barely anybody uses cliff racer, but shalks are basement of burst both for stamden and magden. So it's not easy for ZOS to balance everything out.
And let's look at this patch:
- warden receives extra crit damage on chilled
- necro receives blastbones fix and cheaper boneyard
- sorc receives cheaper lighting splash and monkey
- templar received cheaper shards and blocking mitigation as compensation for removed snares which were useless anyway because jabs snare is more potent and comes when it needed more
- DK received pack of minor nerf-fixes to leap, volatile and wings
- NB received NOTHING, despite everybody crying class needed buff or at least removal of incap cast time

Now tell me, what classes are really poor and forgotten.

The chill proc is hardly a dps increase. With the weapon damage glyph and procing off Winters Revenge it was a 60% up time on chill.

With frost glyph it was 80% up time, but still pulled just about the same dps. Because you loose out on the weapon damage.

It’s a 2-3% increase in DPS on Average.

And what will be chilled uptime with several people spamming elemental weapon in boss?

Wardens aren’t used in group, because they bring nothing for anyone to benefit from.
So it wouldn’t matter.

Minor toughness.

llBlack_Heartll

satanio wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Miracles don't exist, one class can't be good at everything. Stamdens are one of the best in PVP overall, magdens are beasts in group PVP and magdens are best healers in PVE, as well as wardens are solid PVE tanks. If you'll look at other classes, for example NB or DK or sorc, those have more narrow roles and applications. So "poor wardens" is bad argument. Class is good in everything with exception of PVE dps role. Not that big sacrifice for all the cookies imo, I'm sure NB, DK or sorc will happily switch some roles with warden.

I will gladly advocate to reduce PVP Warden strength and bring their PVE strength in line. I got no issues with that. When Stamden is behind a fair few mag DPS in PVE, there's a deep, deep problem. If they are so damn intent on this birds bleed (and it seems they are), at least link it to something we can viably control, like Minor Vuln. That requires us to use bugs, and transitions us more toward dot-focused builds that will weaken sub assault. Cap the stacks and let it proc when hitting a target affected by vuln.

I think PVP wardens will strongly disagree... because barely anybody uses cliff racer, but shalks are basement of burst both for stamden and magden. So it's not easy for ZOS to balance everything out.
And let's look at this patch:
- warden receives extra crit damage on chilled
- necro receives blastbones fix and cheaper boneyard
- sorc receives cheaper lighting splash and monkey
- templar received cheaper shards and blocking mitigation as compensation for removed snares which were useless anyway because jabs snare is more potent and comes when it needed more
- DK received pack of minor nerf-fixes to leap, volatile and wings
- NB received NOTHING, despite everybody crying class needed buff or at least removal of incap cast time

Now tell me, what classes are really poor and forgotten.

The chill proc is hardly a dps increase. With the weapon damage glyph and procing off Winters Revenge it was a 60% up time on chill.

With frost glyph it was 80% up time, but still pulled just about the same dps. Because you loose out on the weapon damage.

It’s a 2-3% increase in DPS on Average.

And what will be chilled uptime with several people spamming elemental weapon in boss?

Wardens aren’t used in group, because they bring nothing for anyone to benefit from.
So it wouldn’t matter.

Minor toughness.

Covered by a healer

satanio

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Miracles don't exist, one class can't be good at everything. Stamdens are one of the best in PVP overall, magdens are beasts in group PVP and magdens are best healers in PVE, as well as wardens are solid PVE tanks. If you'll look at other classes, for example NB or DK or sorc, those have more narrow roles and applications. So "poor wardens" is bad argument. Class is good in everything with exception of PVE dps role. Not that big sacrifice for all the cookies imo, I'm sure NB, DK or sorc will happily switch some roles with warden.

I will gladly advocate to reduce PVP Warden strength and bring their PVE strength in line. I got no issues with that. When Stamden is behind a fair few mag DPS in PVE, there's a deep, deep problem. If they are so damn intent on this birds bleed (and it seems they are), at least link it to something we can viably control, like Minor Vuln. That requires us to use bugs, and transitions us more toward dot-focused builds that will weaken sub assault. Cap the stacks and let it proc when hitting a target affected by vuln.

I think PVP wardens will strongly disagree... because barely anybody uses cliff racer, but shalks are basement of burst both for stamden and magden. So it's not easy for ZOS to balance everything out.
And let's look at this patch:
- warden receives extra crit damage on chilled
- necro receives blastbones fix and cheaper boneyard
- sorc receives cheaper lighting splash and monkey
- templar received cheaper shards and blocking mitigation as compensation for removed snares which were useless anyway because jabs snare is more potent and comes when it needed more
- DK received pack of minor nerf-fixes to leap, volatile and wings
- NB received NOTHING, despite everybody crying class needed buff or at least removal of incap cast time

Now tell me, what classes are really poor and forgotten.

The chill proc is hardly a dps increase. With the weapon damage glyph and procing off Winters Revenge it was a 60% up time on chill.

With frost glyph it was 80% up time, but still pulled just about the same dps. Because you loose out on the weapon damage.

It’s a 2-3% increase in DPS on Average.

And what will be chilled uptime with several people spamming elemental weapon in boss?

Wardens aren’t used in group, because they bring nothing for anyone to benefit from.
So it wouldn’t matter.

Minor toughness.

Covered by a healer

If possible. If not, then stamden with lotus.

llBlack_Heartll

satanio wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Miracles don't exist, one class can't be good at everything. Stamdens are one of the best in PVP overall, magdens are beasts in group PVP and magdens are best healers in PVE, as well as wardens are solid PVE tanks. If you'll look at other classes, for example NB or DK or sorc, those have more narrow roles and applications. So "poor wardens" is bad argument. Class is good in everything with exception of PVE dps role. Not that big sacrifice for all the cookies imo, I'm sure NB, DK or sorc will happily switch some roles with warden.

I will gladly advocate to reduce PVP Warden strength and bring their PVE strength in line. I got no issues with that. When Stamden is behind a fair few mag DPS in PVE, there's a deep, deep problem. If they are so damn intent on this birds bleed (and it seems they are), at least link it to something we can viably control, like Minor Vuln. That requires us to use bugs, and transitions us more toward dot-focused builds that will weaken sub assault. Cap the stacks and let it proc when hitting a target affected by vuln.

I think PVP wardens will strongly disagree... because barely anybody uses cliff racer, but shalks are basement of burst both for stamden and magden. So it's not easy for ZOS to balance everything out.
And let's look at this patch:
- warden receives extra crit damage on chilled
- necro receives blastbones fix and cheaper boneyard
- sorc receives cheaper lighting splash and monkey
- templar received cheaper shards and blocking mitigation as compensation for removed snares which were useless anyway because jabs snare is more potent and comes when it needed more
- DK received pack of minor nerf-fixes to leap, volatile and wings
- NB received NOTHING, despite everybody crying class needed buff or at least removal of incap cast time

Now tell me, what classes are really poor and forgotten.

The chill proc is hardly a dps increase. With the weapon damage glyph and procing off Winters Revenge it was a 60% up time on chill.

With frost glyph it was 80% up time, but still pulled just about the same dps. Because you loose out on the weapon damage.

It’s a 2-3% increase in DPS on Average.

And what will be chilled uptime with several people spamming elemental weapon in boss?

Wardens aren’t used in group, because they bring nothing for anyone to benefit from.
So it wouldn’t matter.

Minor toughness.

Covered by a healer

Stamden Make up 0.9% of DPS used in HM Clears in CR, AS, HoF, MoL & SS.
Magden make up 1.9%.

The next closest for Stam is 8% Sorcs and 12% Necro Mag.

MartiniDaniels

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Miracles don't exist, one class can't be good at everything. Stamdens are one of the best in PVP overall, magdens are beasts in group PVP and magdens are best healers in PVE, as well as wardens are solid PVE tanks. If you'll look at other classes, for example NB or DK or sorc, those have more narrow roles and applications. So "poor wardens" is bad argument. Class is good in everything with exception of PVE dps role. Not that big sacrifice for all the cookies imo, I'm sure NB, DK or sorc will happily switch some roles with warden.

I will gladly advocate to reduce PVP Warden strength and bring their PVE strength in line. I got no issues with that. When Stamden is behind a fair few mag DPS in PVE, there's a deep, deep problem. If they are so damn intent on this birds bleed (and it seems they are), at least link it to something we can viably control, like Minor Vuln. That requires us to use bugs, and transitions us more toward dot-focused builds that will weaken sub assault. Cap the stacks and let it proc when hitting a target affected by vuln.

I think PVP wardens will strongly disagree... because barely anybody uses cliff racer, but shalks are basement of burst both for stamden and magden. So it's not easy for ZOS to balance everything out.
And let's look at this patch:
- warden receives extra crit damage on chilled
- necro receives blastbones fix and cheaper boneyard
- sorc receives cheaper lighting splash and monkey
- templar received cheaper shards and blocking mitigation as compensation for removed snares which were useless anyway because jabs snare is more potent and comes when it needed more
- DK received pack of minor nerf-fixes to leap, volatile and wings
- NB received NOTHING, despite everybody crying class needed buff or at least removal of incap cast time

Now tell me, what classes are really poor and forgotten.

The chill proc is hardly a dps increase. With the weapon damage glyph and procing off Winters Revenge it was a 60% up time on chill.

With frost glyph it was 80% up time, but still pulled just about the same dps. Because you loose out on the weapon damage.

It’s a 2-3% increase in DPS on Average.

And what will be chilled uptime with several people spamming elemental weapon in boss?

Wardens aren’t used in group, because they bring nothing for anyone to benefit from.
So it wouldn’t matter.

Minor toughness.

Covered by a healer

Stamden Make up 0.9% of DPS used in HM Clears in CR, AS, HoF, MoL & SS.
Magden make up 1.9%.

The next closest for Stam is 8% Sorcs and 12% Necro Mag.

Because warden healer is the best, not because magden dps is so bad. It is natural in optimized raids that if class is used as tank or healer it is not used for dps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us1OWIBXUyU

satanio

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Miracles don't exist, one class can't be good at everything. Stamdens are one of the best in PVP overall, magdens are beasts in group PVP and magdens are best healers in PVE, as well as wardens are solid PVE tanks. If you'll look at other classes, for example NB or DK or sorc, those have more narrow roles and applications. So "poor wardens" is bad argument. Class is good in everything with exception of PVE dps role. Not that big sacrifice for all the cookies imo, I'm sure NB, DK or sorc will happily switch some roles with warden.

I will gladly advocate to reduce PVP Warden strength and bring their PVE strength in line. I got no issues with that. When Stamden is behind a fair few mag DPS in PVE, there's a deep, deep problem. If they are so damn intent on this birds bleed (and it seems they are), at least link it to something we can viably control, like Minor Vuln. That requires us to use bugs, and transitions us more toward dot-focused builds that will weaken sub assault. Cap the stacks and let it proc when hitting a target affected by vuln.

I think PVP wardens will strongly disagree... because barely anybody uses cliff racer, but shalks are basement of burst both for stamden and magden. So it's not easy for ZOS to balance everything out.
And let's look at this patch:
- warden receives extra crit damage on chilled
- necro receives blastbones fix and cheaper boneyard
- sorc receives cheaper lighting splash and monkey
- templar received cheaper shards and blocking mitigation as compensation for removed snares which were useless anyway because jabs snare is more potent and comes when it needed more
- DK received pack of minor nerf-fixes to leap, volatile and wings
- NB received NOTHING, despite everybody crying class needed buff or at least removal of incap cast time

Now tell me, what classes are really poor and forgotten.

The chill proc is hardly a dps increase. With the weapon damage glyph and procing off Winters Revenge it was a 60% up time on chill.

With frost glyph it was 80% up time, but still pulled just about the same dps. Because you loose out on the weapon damage.

It’s a 2-3% increase in DPS on Average.

And what will be chilled uptime with several people spamming elemental weapon in boss?

Wardens aren’t used in group, because they bring nothing for anyone to benefit from.
So it wouldn’t matter.

Minor toughness.

Covered by a healer

Stamden Make up 0.9% of DPS used in HM Clears in CR, AS, HoF, MoL & SS.
Magden make up 1.9%.

The next closest for Stam is 8% Sorcs and 12% Necro Mag.

Yes, that is indeed sad. Just saying that they provide Minor Toughness buff to the group.
I played StamDen back in wrathstone and it was really satisfying. I think that what made them one of the worst meele stam classes is the nerf to Animal Companion physical dmg increase passive (3% per skill -> 2% per skill). Just revert this one and they would be top dogs again.

Their bow/bow is good tho.

Skjaldbjorn

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

And what will be chilled uptime with several people spamming elemental weapon in boss?

I have no idea what world you live in where people use ele weapon rofl

Skjaldbjorn

satanio wrote: »

If possible. If not, then stamden with lotus.

More likely a tank with altar. No stamden is running lotus rofl

What planet do all you people exist on?

MartiniDaniels

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

And what will be chilled uptime with several people spamming elemental weapon in boss?

I have no idea what world you live in where people use ele weapon rofl

In that world where you plan to push warden dps into raid with warden healer.

satanio

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

If possible. If not, then stamden with lotus.

More likely a tank with altar. No stamden is running lotus rofl

What planet do all you people exist on?

In a world where nobody wants to play warden support.

Skjaldbjorn

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

In that world where you plan to push warden dps into raid with warden healer.

That didn't even make sense, but okay.

Skjaldbjorn

satanio wrote: »

In a world where nobody wants to play warden support.

I mean, I have been saying Warden supports are overbudgeted for two or three patches now. ESPECIALLY tanks are entirely too strong atm. So let's nerf them and bring the DPS up?