Suggestion – How to make the game more epic

Eric_Prince

It’s probably was discussed before, but well…

I’ve recently started to do story quests. Main game, Summerset, Clockworck city, Elseweyr. Honestly, I like them a lot. Most of the times you can actually feel yourself a hero. But sometimes I’m almost screaming in the monitor: “Damn it, why can’t you make an epic cutscene out of this?!”.
Just for example. Main story. When we destroy that huge anchor with Vanus Galerion, we have a specific task to observe mentioned destruction. It’s nice, but wouldn’t it be much cooler if we had some nice cutscene?
And another example. Elsweyr, final part of the main storyline. We fight two dragons, we’re saving the world. Boss fight itself is okay, but then we just watch something happening with the main villain. But it’s not even remotely epic when we see it from such a distance!

I’m not asking for some breathtaking cinematics. Just cutscenes on game engine. And, again, we don’t need much of them. On some crucial parts of the story and, maybe, on killing story bosses (I mean final bosses of expancions). And that would make game even cooler.

DelosTheta

I would think that it saves a lot of space to create scenes using existing resources and features. Every cut scene would essentially require downloading a specific video file. Taking in the context of a huge long game like this one, that would be quite a few videos.

Eric_Prince

Probably. I'm honestly not an expert. But isn't it possible to just make a camera fly while the scene itself is happening? Show us everything from a cool angle and not just our character perspective?

Kahnak

Eric_Prince wrote: »

It’s probably was discussed before, but well…

I’ve recently started to do story quests. Main game, Summerset, Clockworck city, Elseweyr. Honestly, I like them a lot. Most of the times you can actually feel yourself a hero. But sometimes I’m almost screaming in the monitor: “Damn it, why can’t you make an epic cutscene out of this?!”.
Just for example. Main story. When we destroy that huge anchor with Vanus Galerion, we have a specific task to observe mentioned destruction. It’s nice, but wouldn’t it be much cooler if we had some nice cutscene?
And another example. Elsweyr, final part of the main storyline. We fight two dragons, we’re saving the world. Boss fight itself is okay, but then we just watch something happening with the main villain. But it’s not even remotely epic when we see it from such a distance!

I’m not asking for some breathtaking cinematics. Just cutscenes on game engine. And, again, we don’t need much of them. On some crucial parts of the story and, maybe, on killing story bosses (I mean final bosses of expancions). And that would make game even cooler.

Seems like a reasonable request to me. While it may not be realistic to expect them to go back to 6 year old content to write in a cinematic, it's not unfair to ask that new content have the occasional cinematic for the story quests when every other top tier MMO does it.

Nestor

I read something recently about bringing back Cut Scenes. We used to have them mostly because game graphics were not as awesome as the scene they wanted to portray. Now the game graphics are good enough to use a script. But, never the optimal camera angle, and in this game, random players coming and going can mess with the "immersion". So, maybe they should come back for important parts of the story.

As long as....

I never liked cut scenes that could not be skipped or were over done in length or extended speeches.

And, it would be a good to not have to the back and forth running around of the last chapter at the end. A cut scene would have been nicer.

Iccotak

because Elder Scroll games traditionally don't have cinematics

Eric_Prince

Iccotak wrote: »

because Elder Scroll games traditionally don't have cinematics

True. But there are good traditions and not so good traditions. And even a small amount of cutscenes would make scenes look better.

kalimar44

Copy Everquest from 1999 hardcore game play. 😁

Huyen

WoW had quite a few of them, which made the story more entertaining, and feel real. I mean, all veterans remember the first attempt to kill the Lich King, and the intervention of the Dragons, saying in ancient tongue that we shouldn't know it yet. So why can't ESO?

Iccotak

I don't think ESO should just copy what other MMOs are doing
Personally I prefer feeling immersed in the story and being there as opposed to a series of cutscenes.
I think ZOS could work more and making player moments in the story feel more epic.

1. score music specific for that moment
2. use the player camera in interesting ways
Example: Skyrim Vyrthur boss fight video at the 4:30 mark. Note how it doesn't cut to a cutscene but manages to feel both immersive and epic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awAY1UMTxBo

In other words have the player character involves in the important moments of the story.
Like the Shadow Sotha Sil boss fight 0:30 mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXHPUv8JLB8

3. When it comes to epic moments make the Ui temporarily go away to remove the visual noise.

Sylvermynx

Spare me the "movies". If they do this, I sure hope they have a "skip this crap" key....

TheShadowScout

Cutscenes are neat...
...for the first time you get them.
When you have several characters playing through the content... well, the second time you bear it, the third you frown, the fouth you grown, and the fifth and further you just want it to stop so you can get on with your questings!

Still, as long as there is an "press any key to skip cutscene" option... it -would- make for a nifty addition. Because then you can watch them if you like, or skip them if you already know the whole thing!

Eric_Prince

Absolutely agree. Skip button is must have.
Well, maybe someone from ZOS will read this

FierceSam

I don’t like cut scenes.

I found they used a lot more of these and ‘staged’ scenes in the finales of both Elsweyr and Dragonhold. It didn’t make either feel more epic to me. Rather it made me feel superfluous and unnecessary. Just a lame excuse not to build a genuinely challenging boss.

To me ‘epic’ is when I devise and execute a strategy to beat a boss that requires a significant degree of tactical awareness and skill (and sometimes luck)... those few moments when you go ‘Yeeeessss!!’ at the end of a fight. Not some cinematic junkpile thrown together that’s identical for everyone.

If I wanted to gush over a cutscene, I’d watch a whole movie.

This is like saying that ZOS’s cinematic adverts add anything to my enjoyment of the game. I’m happy people like them and they bring in new players, but don’t confuse them with immersive game design.

Iccotak

FierceSam wrote: »

I don’t like cut scenes.

I found they used a lot more of these and ‘staged’ scenes in the finales of both Elsweyr and Dragonhold. It didn’t make either feel more epic to me. Rather it made me feel superfluous and unnecessary. Just a lame excuse not to build a genuinely challenging boss.

To me ‘epic’ is when I devise and execute a strategy to beat a boss that requires a significant degree of tactical awareness and skill (and sometimes luck)... those few moments when you go ‘Yeeeessss!!’ at the end of a fight. Not some cinematic junkpile thrown together that’s identical for everyone.

If I wanted to gush over a cutscene, I’d watch a whole movie.

This is like saying that ZOS’s cinematic adverts add anything to my enjoyment of the game. I’m happy people like them and they bring in new players, but don’t confuse them with immersive game design.

This is why I think ZOS should make a dungeon option of Story Final Bosses.
They are disappointing as they are now

Vietfox

It would be even more epic if this game had a proper performance (Cyro)

Vevvev

Typically cutscenes are only effective as good transitions between the story. If they get in the way or do the job for the player the cutscene will begin to have problems where the player feels like they haven't accomplished anything. To make the game more epic the bosses and challenges you face need to be well..... challenging. Probably the best example I can think of where cutscenes are used correctly in a boss fight that was actually uniquely challenging was the fight with Dettlaff in the Witcher 3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-Td_aETp4I

ian31416

I don't ormally like cutscenes. But I was kinda hoping that we would get the scene from the Elsweyr trailer where the flying island blows up. In-game that all happens off-stage, which is disappointing (especially after the trailer).

Browiseth

part of what i loved about my brief foray into SWTOR are the mass effect esque cinematics; the game is of course by bioware so it's not unexpected, but it enriched my experience of the story because there's actually some amount of presentation

i wouldn't expect player characters in this game to be voiced as that is a huge undertaking, but i would've loved for major scenes to be scripted in fully cinematic cutscenes with my character reacting to events unfold in a more fleshed out way

i don't agree with the whole 'don't take control away from the player during story scenes' that seems to be so valued by players and developers now. half life did this in 1998 and so many games think they can replicate the successes that game has in worldbuilding and storytelling simply by not bothering to present the story in a cinematic way, rather than going to the same effort HL did over 20 years ago now to make that method of storytelling work as well as it did

it's actually quite frustrating...

Iccotak

Browiseth wrote: »

part of what i loved about my brief foray into SWTOR are the mass effect esque cinematics; the game is of course by bioware so it's not unexpected, but it enriched my experience of the story because there's actually some amount of presentation

i wouldn't expect player characters in this game to be voiced as that is a huge undertaking, but i would've loved for major scenes to be scripted in fully cinematic cutscenes with my character reacting to events unfold in a more fleshed out way

i don't agree with the whole 'don't take control away from the player during story scenes' that seems to be so valued by players and developers now. half life did this in 1998 and so many games think they can replicate the successes that game has in worldbuilding and storytelling simply by not bothering to present the story in a cinematic way, rather than going to the same effort HL did over 20 years ago now to make that method of storytelling work as well as it did

it's actually quite frustrating...

It's fair to say that ZOS could put effort into presentation and have the player character appear more involved in important moments of the story.
As long as they can maintain in-game immersion without cutscenes

Browiseth

Iccotak wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

part of what i loved about my brief foray into SWTOR are the mass effect esque cinematics; the game is of course by bioware so it's not unexpected, but it enriched my experience of the story because there's actually some amount of presentation

i wouldn't expect player characters in this game to be voiced as that is a huge undertaking, but i would've loved for major scenes to be scripted in fully cinematic cutscenes with my character reacting to events unfold in a more fleshed out way

i don't agree with the whole 'don't take control away from the player during story scenes' that seems to be so valued by players and developers now. half life did this in 1998 and so many games think they can replicate the successes that game has in worldbuilding and storytelling simply by not bothering to present the story in a cinematic way, rather than going to the same effort HL did over 20 years ago now to make that method of storytelling work as well as it did

it's actually quite frustrating...

It's fair to say that ZOS could put effort into presentation and have the player character appear more involved in important moments of the story.
As long as they can maintain in-game immersion without cutscenes

i don't see how cutscenes can have a negative effect on immersion. in fact, when scripted, voiced, animated and shot well i think cutscenes can involve you in a scene so much more than just standing there watching characters animate with stock animations and poses to get a scene across

https://youtu.be/D93tSQ25dQU?t=79

i'd take a well animated cinematic cutscene like this to present an important scene in a game over any amount of standing around while things happen

Iccotak

@Browiseth
It's about maintaining consistent tone.
Cutscenes fit Dragon Age & Mass Effect.

But a cutscene like Mass Effect (i.e. cutting away from the game for a movie) in Elder Scrolls is tonally inconsistent with the game and the franchise. imo
I would have to see a proof of concept in the game before I could seriously consider it.

Browiseth

Iccotak wrote: »

@Browiseth
It's about maintaining consistent tone.
Cutscenes fit Dragon Age & Mass Effect.

But a cutscene like Mass Effect (i.e. cutting away from the game for a movie) in Elder Scrolls is tonally inconsistent with the game and the franchise. imo
I would have to see a proof of concept in the game before I could seriously consider it.

@Iccotak a fair point, a lack of cinematic cutscenes has been consistent in elder scrolls since...well, ever. at most there'll be maybe one cinematic at the very beginning to get you introduced to the world but you are correct

that doesn't mean game can't change though, and in my opinion ESO does not take full advantage of the 'never take control away from the player' style of cutscenes as very often i am just standing around in quests not paying attention, waiting for the characters to finish talking. i think i would be much more interested if i could get a bioware style dynamic cinematic camera, it would just be enough to make a scene more visually interesting

Iccotak

@Browiseth
There is a compromise.
They can improve presentation as we have seen them do - that doesn't mean it has to be a cutscene
Sure they "could" change but Elder Scrolls has made a brand from the tone of the franchise.

We expect WoW to have cutscenes because that is what the Warcraft franchise is known for.
We expect blockbuster storytelling from Mass Effect & Dragon Age because that is what Bioware is known for.
We expect Elder Scroll games to tell the story all in game because that is a feature of the franchise - not a flaw.

The Final Fight with Alduin in Skyrim was pretty Epic and Awesome without a cutscene - so it can be done.

Browiseth

Iccotak wrote: »

@Browiseth
There is a compromise.
They can improve presentation as we have seen them do - that doesn't mean it has to be a cutscene
Sure they "could" change but Elder Scrolls has made a brand from the tone of the franchise.

We expect WoW to have cutscenes because that is what the Warcraft franchise is known for.
We expect blockbuster storytelling from Mass Effect & Dragon Age because that is what Bioware is known for.
We expect Elder Scroll games to tell the story all in game because that is a feature of the franchise - not a flaw.

The Final Fight with Alduin in Skyrim was pretty Epic and Awesome without a cutscene - so it can be done.

@Iccotak again, all true

i understand these aren't realistic expectations, my intention was more to express my frustration at how taboo cinematic cutscenes have become in gaming nowadays. the common theme i see is that the lack of cutscenes and never taking control away from a player is somehow more immersive, which is bizarre. if this were the case, it would diminish the successes that well made movies achieve in pulling you into a story or world through techniques such as well timed music, well done angles, excellent voice acting and writing, etc

in fact, if anything, these sorts of 'traditional' methods of presenting a scene can have an even greater effect in the medium of video games when combined with choice based storytelling like bioware's greatest

//rant over

i'm not specifically accusing you of these suggesting these things, i suppose i'm more so using our conversation here as a convenient way to express my own thoughts on the matter

Roztlin45

Vietfox wrote: »

It would be even more epic if this game had a proper performance (Cyro)

Yes!! we don't need any more "fluff" what we need is for the game to perform as a game and not an exercise in patents.

Iccotak

Cinematics were useful as a way presenting moments in the story because the gameplay graphics were generally awful.
WoW heavily relies on cutscenes because the in-game doesn't look the greatest nor is it compatible with delivering epic moments.

Now with improved technology, Studios seek to tell the story all in one experience.
God of War 2018 did a good job of this by making it seem that everything was happening in one shot so then it seamlessly returned controls to the player.

What a person seeks to experience in a movie is not necessarily what people are seeking in a video game.
Just because one video game does it doesn't mean that it's the best approach for all games.
They tell their stories with very different methods so it's not an accurate comparison and doesn't serve your point.

Bioware is great but they have a standard in their storytelling presentation that is different from Bethesda.

There are subtle ways they can improve story moments taking cue from their own single player games.
1. For important moments - shift things to First person and control camera (like we saw in the Vyrthur fight)
2. Music scored for specific story moments
3. remove Ui so then the player is not cluttered by visual noise during a story moment
4. Have multiple NPCs join in on a single Conversation - use the first person camera to direct view points. (like in Fallout 4)
Example: Fallout 4 conversation transitions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dUy2P4aIzAss

That way players don't have to always run from one NPC to the next when pushing forward a story.
Example: Talking with the 5 companions all at once

Sailor_Palutena

Huyen wrote: »

WoW had quite a few of them, which made the story more entertaining, and feel real. I mean, all veterans remember the first attempt to kill the Lich King, and the intervention of the Dragons, saying in ancient tongue that we shouldn't know it yet. So why can't ESO?

Yeah but by having so good cutscenes, made the game flaws too obvious. To the point I decided to quit WoW and play ESO, and just watch WoW through youtube videos. I feel like I'm not losing anything.

Eric_Prince

Iccotak wrote: »

That way players don't have to always run from one NPC to the next when pushing forward a story.
Example: Talking with the 5 companions all at once

It's an interesting thought. I'd really like to see this in game.

FierceSam

Browiseth wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

part of what i loved about my brief foray into SWTOR are the mass effect esque cinematics; the game is of course by bioware so it's not unexpected, but it enriched my experience of the story because there's actually some amount of presentation

i wouldn't expect player characters in this game to be voiced as that is a huge undertaking, but i would've loved for major scenes to be scripted in fully cinematic cutscenes with my character reacting to events unfold in a more fleshed out way

i don't agree with the whole 'don't take control away from the player during story scenes' that seems to be so valued by players and developers now. half life did this in 1998 and so many games think they can replicate the successes that game has in worldbuilding and storytelling simply by not bothering to present the story in a cinematic way, rather than going to the same effort HL did over 20 years ago now to make that method of storytelling work as well as it did

it's actually quite frustrating...

It's fair to say that ZOS could put effort into presentation and have the player character appear more involved in important moments of the story.
As long as they can maintain in-game immersion without cutscenes

i don't see how cutscenes can have a negative effect on immersion. in fact, when scripted, voiced, animated and shot well i think cutscenes can involve you in a scene so much more than just standing there watching characters animate with stock animations and poses to get a scene across

https://youtu.be/D93tSQ25dQU?t=79

i'd take a well animated cinematic cutscene like this to present an important scene in a game over any amount of standing around while things happen

Because I’m not doing anything in them. I am watching something else happen. The fundamental difference between a game and a film is that the user/viewer is the principal actor in a game, but a passive viewer in a film or cutscene. I don’t play ESO to be a passive viewer. Especially not for the denouement of a quest.

I’m not super keen on “standing around while things happen” either, that’s not what I would call immersive gaming.

So, no, my life in ESO would not be made more ‘epic’ by ZOS wasting potential development money on cinematics.

SpacemanSpiff1

no thanks. i dont like having my controls taken away for some silly scene to play out.