Maintenance for the week of March 25:
• [COMPLETE] Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – March 26, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• [COMPLETE] PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – March 26, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – March 28, 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)

Another thread about Animation canceling with video

Golden_Cat
Golden_Cat
✭✭✭
First thing first, I'm not native speaker so sorry about my English.
I've seen lots of arguments for and against AC but coundn't find any video that shows the differences between 2 playstyles so I recorded 2 vids on my own.

1st fight with AC, my ping is generally high and I'm not end game PvEer so there maybe hiccups during the fight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OEtv3N-OXg

2nd fight without AC, sometimes I used AC unintentionally due to muscle memory.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vqJ2jVwzlI

You guys can watch and judge for yourself but I want to throw in my opinions:
_no AC fight is slow, boring just like any other point and click RPG and unresponsive, when I noticed the boss used ability I forced myself not to interupt because I was supposed to be in an animation and thus couldn't cancel it. Moving damage to the end of the animation while still allowing you to block/cancel will just prolong the fight IMO, especially when you fight against multiple players or hard hitting mobs.
_AC's only bane I see is unnatural animation.
_Removing AC won't close the gap between high and low DPS players, it just mean end game content will be impossible to do. To solve the new problem, ZOS either have to buff insane amount of damage to all skills and gear sets or dumb all contents down to a ridiculous level that insults everyone intelligence.
_People with disabilities can still enjoy most of the game without AC, I believe that's why ZOS still makes easy overland contents.
_Many options is still better than no option.
  • Siohwenoeht
    Siohwenoeht
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Thank you for the vids! Pictures are worth a thousand words!
    "It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time saying anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to." - Treebeard
  • Paramedicus
    Paramedicus
    ✭✭✭
    @Golden_Cat
    1. Problem with your reasoning is that you speak as there is no alternative for AC. I think that most people against AC can imagine how combat would work without it, since they are playing this game too. You dont need a video to see it, you can launch the game and experience it.
    2. AC adds to skill gap between players. I don't understad how you can think it's not.
    3. I don't understand what is insane about buffing damage of skills by *20% or lowering HP of bosses by 20% (*exemplary numbers).
    Edited by Paramedicus on January 31, 2020 8:30AM
    PC EU
    /script JumpToHouse("@Paramedicus")
    
    ↑↑↑ Feel free to visit my house if you need to use Transmute Station or Trial Dummy with buffs (look for Harrowing Reaper) ↑↑↑
  • AgaTheGreat
    AgaTheGreat
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    It doesn't matter because AC won't be removed just to appease a few low skill forum users.

    That's why we have class reps who are not some scrubs but represent all end game environments and would never let that change go through. Not that it would ever be considered by the devs anyway.
    PS4 EU Aga_The_Grey - retired | PC EU AgaTheGreat
  • Ankael07
    Ankael07
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    @Golden_Cat
    1. Problem with your reasoning is that you speak as there is no alternative for AC. I think that most people against AC can imagine how combat would work without it, since they are playing this game too. You dont need a video to see it, you can launch the game and experience it.
    2. AC adds to skill gap between players. I don't understad how you can think it's not.
    3. I don't understand what is insane about buffing damage of skills by *20% or lowering HP of bosses by 20% (*exemplary numbers).

    Whats the alternative for AC? Dont get me wrong but I read these posts about AC page after page and the only argument people can make against AC is that it wasnt intended, its a bug, developers couldnt fix it etc. etc.
    No one suggests an alternative for AC so the combat fluidity isnt butchered
    Edited by Ankael07 on January 31, 2020 8:37AM
    If you want me to reply to your comment type @Ankael07 in it.
  • idk
    idk
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    1. Problem with your reasoning is that you speak as there is no alternative for AC. I think that most people against AC can imagine how combat would work without it, since they are playing this game too. You dont need a video to see it, you can launch the game and experience it.
    2. AC adds to skill gap between players. I don't understad how you can think it's not.
    3. I don't understand what is insane about buffing damage of skills by *20% or lowering HP of bosses by 20% (*exemplary numbers).

    To your first point I would expect that comes down to players who are challenged with AC vs those who are not. I do not hear anyone in my raid group suggest they do not like AC.

    To your second point, I am going to guess OP actually meant to say the removal of AC would not lead to closing of the skill gap completely. For high end raiders weaving LA attacks and normal bar swapping is the bulk of the AC that is happening. The top players are still going to be doing several times the dps that the lower end does. LA weave is only a percentage of the damage and everyone but the worst players are bar swapping as it is.

    Further, I lead a group of mostly casual players in the first year, very causal players. They learned to weave and after putting time into working on it were not only clearing AA and HRC but making the weekly leaderboards. Outside of a disability there really is no excuse.

    I do not understand the last point. All PvE content in this game can be cleared without animation canceling. So the boss HP and skill damage is just fine.
  • Kurat
    Kurat
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    I'm tired of them ac threads. Scrubs who cant hit even 20k think that ac is some kind of secret weapon that adds 30k lmao. They are not gonna remove ac, and even if they did, ppl would only lose 2-3k dps.
  • Paramedicus
    Paramedicus
    ✭✭✭
    @Golden_Cat
    well, i saw few propositions, they vary, some people propose minor fixes, like reducing their offensive potential, others would like to see biger changes.

    I can tell you about mine, which would be more on drastic side:
    • replace animation canceling with skill canceling by block/dodge/bash
    • compensate this by encouraging feints usage (canceling skill could return part of resources wasted?)
    • add short cast times for most skills and remove GCD (as a way to compensate for slowing down combat, you could be able to use skills more often that every 1s)
    • add longer cast times for some skills, to make combat more dynamic and rich.
    • remove some of CC debuffs (you need so many of them just because of instant cast time meta)
    • add short cast time to LA (?), but make using it still worthwhile (by resource return?)

    This isnt something well tought out, so major tweaking out of those ideas would be expected. Anyway, this is just to give you idea that current combat system isn't something unalterable and that removing AC = turning ESO into 'turn based' game.

    @idk
    1) There were posts from people who use AC/weave but don't like idea. I don't expect that AC is generally hated by end-game community. It s just a part of game now, "everyone" learned to use it long time ago. But I'm bit tired of this stereotype, that if someone questions current mechanic then must be "clueless potatoe". It makes me to think sometimes, that most of AC-crowd is bunch of teenagers, who learned one trick and want to act cool about it (i know it is not true inb4 someone feels triggered).
    2) Ok, i might stretch my interpretation of OP words too much then. I'm perfectly fine with skilled players being X times more effective than newbs. Making whole content casual friendly would kill game in long term. But as you said, skilled players don't need weaving to be better or effective. Weaving isn't line that separates good and bad players, but rather those informed and uninformed. Being skilled means knowing game, acting fast and adequately to environement (and not so much learing to time LMB with GCD imo). If it's not so big deal, then why so much effort is put into defending it? And I understand fear of combat being unresposive if AC would be simply removed (I agree that it would be game breaking), but I see this overly dramatic reactions in every topic.
    Edited by Paramedicus on January 31, 2020 10:13AM
    PC EU
    /script JumpToHouse("@Paramedicus")
    
    ↑↑↑ Feel free to visit my house if you need to use Transmute Station or Trial Dummy with buffs (look for Harrowing Reaper) ↑↑↑
  • MaleAmazon
    MaleAmazon
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think that most people against AC can imagine how combat would work without it, since they are playing this game too.

    You can think that, but the evidence seems to be against you, not least because anti-AC people don´t seem to understand the concept of global cooldown, or even how AC works.
  • Paramedicus
    Paramedicus
    ✭✭✭
    MaleAmazon wrote: »
    I think that most people against AC can imagine how combat would work without it, since they are playing this game too.

    You can think that, but the evidence seems to be against you, not least because anti-AC people don´t seem to understand the concept of global cooldown, or even how AC works.
    This again.

    @Golden_Cat
    And if change would have to be less drastic, then maybe something like this:
    • add LA to GCD
    • let block/dodge/swap either trigger GCD or activating it would add ~0.5s* to current GCD (second option would be better prolly) BUT block/dodge/swap could still be used independently of GCD.
    You could still react defensively but weaving skills wouldn't so useful.

    *exemplary number
    Edited by Paramedicus on January 31, 2020 10:38AM
    PC EU
    /script JumpToHouse("@Paramedicus")
    
    ↑↑↑ Feel free to visit my house if you need to use Transmute Station or Trial Dummy with buffs (look for Harrowing Reaper) ↑↑↑
  • Infixo
    Infixo
    ✭✭
    People discuss AC as if there were only 2 options to choose from: have it or not. That is totally wrong approach.
    The issue is not AC itself, because this mechanics is needed for defensive purposes plus making the fights more dynamic. The issue is the fact that you get damage from an action you’ve just cancel before it finished. I honestly find it weird and illogical.
    Edited by Infixo on January 31, 2020 10:36AM
  • Infixo
    Infixo
    ✭✭
    Stopped doing = I meant that you haven’t finish it. So, there should be no effect for it.
    Edited by Infixo on January 31, 2020 10:37AM
  • Skysenzz
    Skysenzz
    ✭✭✭
    @Golden_Cat
    1. Problem with your reasoning is that you speak as there is no alternative for AC. I think that most people against AC can imagine how combat would work without it, since they are playing this game too. You dont need a video to see it, you can launch the game and experience it.
    2. AC adds to skill gap between players. I don't understad how you can think it's not.
    3. I don't understand what is insane about buffing damage of skills by *20% or lowering HP of bosses by 20% (*exemplary numbers).

    Zos have been playing with numbers on skills for this past year, and we've seen how unbalanced things got because they went tunnel vision doing 30% buff on that skill, then 50% down on an other skill. IMO this year was terrible because things were changing even before you could get used to the previous changes. I am 100% okay with changes don't get me wrong, but 2 majors "update" that change meta completely shouldn't be one patch after another one.
    Then what's wrong with the game having skill gap between players ? ESO has a fairly "competitive" end game because of the game requiring some skills (tbf the game isn't really competitive next to other MMOs on the market). Playing a game where it take 5minutes to master it is no fun, there is no feeling of progression as there should be (esp on a MMO).
    I'll add that AC is not really hard to master, especially the basic stuff such as weaving. Bash canceling is a but more tricky but once you've got the hang of it it is really satisfying. It is also something that is really easy to do it, once you've learned you cannot really forget how to do it, or it comes back really easy.
    If you wanna play a game where there are no skill progression go in an other old fashioned mmo where you don't need to do anything to deal damage.
    CP1000+
    DC sDK Skysenzz
    DC Stamden Kartag Vosh Rakh
    DC mDK Ignis-Noctem
    DC sDK Ellesperis
    DC MagSorc Victorià
    EP Stamplar Subject to change
    EP StamBlade Powerful Ninja Zoid
    DC StamNecro StamDK ls Better
  • CassandraGemini
    CassandraGemini
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have a feeling that the whole AC discussion is turning into a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Some threads showed up, like they do from time to time, then more threads were created with people wondering why there are so many threads about AC all of a sudden. And now there are even more with arguments why it should not be removed (which I agree with, just to throw that out there).

    Now, I get that this has probably been brought on in part by the new changes to block, but I really don't believe ZOS actually plans to remove AC altogether. But the way I see it, we might want to stop discussing it here all the time, because in the end that does nothing but always bring the topic up again without swaying anyone's opinion about it. The devs see this, though, and probably do wonder, to an extent, why we keep talking about it so much. So, really, we might do ourselves a bigger favour, if we just drop the whole thing, the continued discussions might lead us to a place, where we (and I use "we" as in "the people who don't want AC removed) didn't want to be in the end.
    This poor little Bosmer stealth passive had passionate friends and a big loving family!

  • gatekeeper13
    gatekeeper13
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    I am not for or against AC. I think I its a flaw in the gameplay that should be fixed (but they technically cant). Still, I have no issue with it, I use it (it doubles my dps) and I have no problem with it staying in game.

    What is really flawed in ESO is the design of dungeons or trials that make you focus on improving dps more than anything else because High Dps=Less mechanics. End game should have a different style of difficulty where AC wont play an absolute and vital role.
    Edited by gatekeeper13 on January 31, 2020 11:39AM
  • Cryptical
    Cryptical
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Golden_Cat wrote: »
    First thing first, I'm not native speaker so sorry about my English.
    I've seen lots of arguments for and against AC but coundn't find any video that shows the differences between 2 playstyles so I recorded 2 vids on my own.

    1st fight with AC, my ping is generally high and I'm not end game PvEer so there maybe hiccups during the fight.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OEtv3N-OXg

    2nd fight without AC, sometimes I used AC unintentionally due to muscle memory.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vqJ2jVwzlI

    You guys can watch and judge for yourself but I want to throw in my opinions:
    _no AC fight is slow, boring just like any other point and click RPG and unresponsive, when I noticed the boss used ability I forced myself not to interupt because I was supposed to be in an animation and thus couldn't cancel it. Moving damage to the end of the animation while still allowing you to block/cancel will just prolong the fight IMO, especially when you fight against multiple players or hard hitting mobs.
    _AC's only bane I see is unnatural animation.
    _Removing AC won't close the gap between high and low DPS players, it just mean end game content will be impossible to do. To solve the new problem, ZOS either have to buff insane amount of damage to all skills and gear sets or dumb all contents down to a ridiculous level that insults everyone intelligence.
    _People with disabilities can still enjoy most of the game without AC, I believe that's why ZOS still makes easy overland contents.
    _Many options is still better than no option.

    Make one more video.

    Block when you need to but NO CANCELLING TO SQUEEZE IN MORE ATTACKS.

    Animation cancelling was intended to allow people to abort what action they were doing in order to perform a sudden block or bash or roll dodge.

    You need to realize the issue people have with animation cancelling is that it allows people to squeeze in more *attacks* per period of time than the animation length would otherwise permit.
    Xbox NA
  • x48rph
    x48rph
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    It doesn't matter because AC won't be removed just to appease a few low skill forum users.

    That's why we have class reps who are not some scrubs but represent all end game environments and would never let that change go through. Not that it would ever be considered by the devs anyway.

    This gave me quite the chuckle. It's already been proven that class reps have minimum influence on ZOS and have absolutely NO say what so ever in what changes go through and what doesn't. They are little more than unpaid advisors that ZOS sometimes listens to.
  • Coppes
    Coppes
    ✭✭✭✭
    Just add another stat called Speed or Alacrity or something similar like that speeds up GCD and or animation.

    SWTOR’s combat looks similar to that of video two when you have absolutely 0 alacrity. Once you get it the combat speeds up by a huge amounts.

    Now, you’ve got varying builds that focus on High Power, low speed. Or High speed, low power.

    But, the problem is that you have to rely on AC to succeed in all walks of the game (excluding Overland content and RP).
    Edited by Coppes on January 31, 2020 12:08PM
  • AgaTheGreat
    AgaTheGreat
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    x48rph wrote: »
    It doesn't matter because AC won't be removed just to appease a few low skill forum users.

    That's why we have class reps who are not some scrubs but represent all end game environments and would never let that change go through. Not that it would ever be considered by the devs anyway.

    This gave me quite the chuckle. It's already been proven that class reps have minimum influence on ZOS and have absolutely NO say what so ever in what changes go through and what doesn't. They are little more than unpaid advisors that ZOS sometimes listens to.

    It still won't be reworked whether class reps have any influence or not.
    Edited by AgaTheGreat on January 31, 2020 12:22PM
    PS4 EU Aga_The_Grey - retired | PC EU AgaTheGreat
  • Paramedicus
    Paramedicus
    ✭✭✭
    @Skysenzz
    Dont get me wrong, Im OK with skill gap between players. I think it is important for longevity of game. It just shouldnt be created by glitch-like pseudo-mechanic tho.

    IMO this can potentialy discourage newer players: its kinda hidden, unintuitive mechanic that you may not even notice (its importance) until late game, and it is not fun to learn that you played whole time wrong because you didn't time pressing one button every sec. Devs should polish AC up when decided it gonna stay. For me not even starting with simple solutions like making Block etc trigger GCD and adding LA to GCD (which took me 5 mins to think up) seems so odd. ESO devs seem sometimes like bunch of scubs, but with lot of money, making game for first time. They copy and mash together ideas from other games with hope it gonna somehow work. And when somethings fails they are bit clueless what to do with it, because they just copied it without deeper understanding (to be fair, i dont think this is always case; they prolly just wont get enough resources to fix stuff, so duct-tape must stay their favorite tool). So.. im not too surprised people are afraid to talk about any combat-fix idea :>
    Edited by Paramedicus on January 31, 2020 1:36PM
    PC EU
    /script JumpToHouse("@Paramedicus")
    
    ↑↑↑ Feel free to visit my house if you need to use Transmute Station or Trial Dummy with buffs (look for Harrowing Reaper) ↑↑↑
  • January1171
    January1171
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Why is a huge skill gap between players such an unpalatable concept? I can understand it if AC was neccessary to get through the majority of content, but it's not. With level scaling and the other tools available to players, it's possible to get through a hefty portion of content without AC at all. Questing, normal dungeons, etc- all accessible to players even if they're just spamming skills or spamming light attacks (or rotating between the two slowly).

    Yes, there would be some that's inaccessible, but high tier content should require high tier skill. I'm terrible at AC and can''t clear vet dlc dungeons- I'm fine with that. Either I run them on normal, or get better at it. There is still so much other content that is accessible to me.
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Golden_Cat
    1. Problem with your reasoning is that you speak as there is no alternative for AC. I think that most people against AC can imagine how combat would work without it, since they are playing this game too. You dont need a video to see it, you can launch the game and experience it.
    2. AC adds to skill gap between players. I don't understad how you can think it's not.
    3. I don't understand what is insane about buffing damage of skills by *20% or lowering HP of bosses by 20% (*exemplary numbers).
    • It's not that there is no alternative to AC. It's the the alternative for us who have played and enjoyed AC in ESO for 6 years suck. Why cant people who are against AC play another game?
    • Yes it does. If I add an extra slide in 30 slide Powerpoint lecture, it makes it longer too. Why cant people who are against AC play another game?
    • Insane isn't the word I I'd use. Unnecessary works. So does needless. Game-breaking is another. ZOS already put in dumb cast times because they felt stuff does too much damage, now you want to increase it by 20%?!? Why cant people who are against AC play another game?
  • Coppes
    Coppes
    ✭✭✭✭
    @Golden_Cat
    1. Problem with your reasoning is that you speak as there is no alternative for AC. I think that most people against AC can imagine how combat would work without it, since they are playing this game too. You dont need a video to see it, you can launch the game and experience it.
    2. AC adds to skill gap between players. I don't understad how you can think it's not.
    3. I don't understand what is insane about buffing damage of skills by *20% or lowering HP of bosses by 20% (*exemplary numbers).
    • It's not that there is no alternative to AC. It's the the alternative for us who have played and enjoyed AC in ESO for 6 years suck. Why cant people who are against AC play another game?
    • Yes it does. If I add an extra slide in 30 slide Powerpoint lecture, it makes it longer too. Why cant people who are against AC play another game?
    • Insane isn't the word I I'd use. Unnecessary works. So does needless. Game-breaking is another. ZOS already put in dumb cast times because they felt stuff does too much damage, now you want to increase it by 20%?!? Why cant people who are against AC play another game?

    You words make it seem like people who enjoy AC are in some way “true ESO players”. And anyone who disagrees are casuals.
  • x48rph
    x48rph
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    x48rph wrote: »
    It doesn't matter because AC won't be removed just to appease a few low skill forum users.

    That's why we have class reps who are not some scrubs but represent all end game environments and would never let that change go through. Not that it would ever be considered by the devs anyway.

    This gave me quite the chuckle. It's already been proven that class reps have minimum influence on ZOS and have absolutely NO say what so ever in what changes go through and what doesn't. They are little more than unpaid advisors that ZOS sometimes listens to.

    It still won't be reworked whether class reps have any influence or not.

    Never said it would, just humored that someone thinks class reps actually get a say in what goes on.

    Personally I would love for them to do so, my reasons for such have already been posted in one of the other numerous threads on AC but I am certainly under no delusion as to think they actually would. They've made it clear before that it's being left in the game and have even encouraged it. Best we've gotten is the added cast times on the more powerful ultimates which helps prevent people from hiding (aka cancelling) the attack so at least you can actually see it coming and react. I'll take what I can get in this case.
  • Dusk_Coven
    Dusk_Coven
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Golden_Cat wrote: »
    _AC's only bane I see is unnatural animation.
    This is the part some people care about too.
    If you don't even want to see your character move, go play a tap clicker. Click faster and win. That's what AC people seem to care about.
    Golden_Cat wrote: »
    Moving damage to the end of the animation while still allowing you to block/cancel will just prolong the fight IMO, especially when you fight against multiple players or hard hitting mobs.
    This is what AC people seem to care about -- afraid to lose an advantage they weren't meant to have in the first place. An advantage based on something completely illogical -- getting the benefits of something you cancelled.
    Golden_Cat wrote: »
    _Removing AC … just mean end game content will be impossible to do.
    This is actually wrong. PvE content challenges are controlled by the devs and it's just all about numbers. They can just change the numbers to make what is impossible possible and let you see what they intended for a multi-stage fight.
    Edited by Dusk_Coven on January 31, 2020 2:51PM
  • Linaleah
    Linaleah
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Cryptical wrote: »
    Golden_Cat wrote: »
    First thing first, I'm not native speaker so sorry about my English.
    I've seen lots of arguments for and against AC but coundn't find any video that shows the differences between 2 playstyles so I recorded 2 vids on my own.

    1st fight with AC, my ping is generally high and I'm not end game PvEer so there maybe hiccups during the fight.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OEtv3N-OXg

    2nd fight without AC, sometimes I used AC unintentionally due to muscle memory.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vqJ2jVwzlI

    You guys can watch and judge for yourself but I want to throw in my opinions:
    _no AC fight is slow, boring just like any other point and click RPG and unresponsive, when I noticed the boss used ability I forced myself not to interupt because I was supposed to be in an animation and thus couldn't cancel it. Moving damage to the end of the animation while still allowing you to block/cancel will just prolong the fight IMO, especially when you fight against multiple players or hard hitting mobs.
    _AC's only bane I see is unnatural animation.
    _Removing AC won't close the gap between high and low DPS players, it just mean end game content will be impossible to do. To solve the new problem, ZOS either have to buff insane amount of damage to all skills and gear sets or dumb all contents down to a ridiculous level that insults everyone intelligence.
    _People with disabilities can still enjoy most of the game without AC, I believe that's why ZOS still makes easy overland contents.
    _Many options is still better than no option.

    Make one more video.

    Block when you need to but NO CANCELLING TO SQUEEZE IN MORE ATTACKS.

    Animation cancelling was intended to allow people to abort what action they were doing in order to perform a sudden block or bash or roll dodge.

    You need to realize the issue people have with animation cancelling is that it allows people to squeeze in more *attacks* per period of time than the animation length would otherwise permit.

    this this THIS! people keep lumping things like block and interrupt and dodge with weaving (that's what makes vids in OP disingenuous IMO and NOT a good example). but they are not exactly the same thing. being able to cancel an animation is not inherently a bad thing. being able to cancel animations but STILL fire off all the attacks? this is what creates issues.

    what issues you ask? gigantic skill gap that basically means that developers need to design challenging content with weaving enabled damage numbers in mind or its not going to be challenging anymore. and that as a result creates a situation where there is a near insurmountable wall for most people when it comes to challenging content. you either can do it. or you cannot. being able to execute mechanics is not enough.

    the only other thing I've seen that is similar is the pervasive use of addons like DBM in WoW (think raid notifier in ESO - but on steroids) why I bring it up? well because the use is so pervasive, developers started to design content with DBM use in mind, essentially making it mandatory for any content above something like LFR difficulty.

    the problem is... and this works the same in ESO with weaving. when developers tried to curtail what dbm can do (or slow down combat in ESO to narrow the skill gap) people were NOT happy. or more specifically hardcore content runners were not happy. and as much as some may not agree, losing your hardcore community is NOT a good thing for MMO. MMO's do need casuals, but they also need hardcores.

    which is why as much as I despise weaving and as much as I wish it wasn't a thing, and as many balancing problems it creates? its not going to go away. ever. best case scenario is that we'll get adjusted animations that make combat appear smoother while weaving and maybe, possible couple of semi viable ways to play that works of heavy attacks or something.
    Edited by Linaleah on January 31, 2020 3:01PM
    dirty worthless casual.
    Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***
    Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"
  • Paramedicus
    Paramedicus
    ✭✭✭
    It's not that there is no alternative to AC. It's the the alternative for us who have played and enjoyed AC in ESO for 6 years suck.
    This is good point and my counter-argument for this could be: depends on how long ZoS wants ESO to exist. I don't think they are too serious about this game tho, because they would fix other important issues by this time (this makes your argument even stronger).
    Insane isn't the word I I'd use. Unnecessary works. So does needless. Game-breaking is another. ZOS already put in dumb cast times because they felt stuff does too much damage, now you want to increase it by 20%?!?
    Well, I can agree since power creep is an issue in ESO. But some AC-folks were very serious about potential unability to do dlc content without weaving, so I wanted to calm their nerves.

    Edited by Paramedicus on January 31, 2020 3:02PM
    PC EU
    /script JumpToHouse("@Paramedicus")
    
    ↑↑↑ Feel free to visit my house if you need to use Transmute Station or Trial Dummy with buffs (look for Harrowing Reaper) ↑↑↑
  • MaleAmazon
    MaleAmazon
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    The issue is the fact that you get damage from an action you’ve just cancel before it finished. I honestly find it weird and illogical.

    Ok, I don´t know why I write in these threads, but I guess I am a moron. Anyway I´ll take a break from assembling my new bed to address this:

    You do not get damage from an action you cancel "before it is finished". The action is 'finished' once you use it, if it is insta-cast. Projectile travel time etc notwithstanding. The animation is inconsequential and it will not help you to see it since the damage is already done. I mean, what are you hoping to accomplish? "The reason I can´t defend vs a dual wielder is that it is hard to see the light attacks they weave in between skills, and of course I usually don´t assume that someone who jumps me and attacks me with all they have got means I should maybe block or roll".

    You do not get damage from cancelling a cast-time action before the cast time has passed.

    And, putting LA (and, I assume, HA on some separate?) on a cooldown that is equal to the animation would only accomplish the following:

    -Make combat more boring.
    -Make combat less skillbased (yes, weaving is a skill. It is not a super hard skill, but it is what you get).
    -Make combat more gear dependent.
    -Make the meta shift to instacast spam, or, if LA / HA was adjusted to do as much damage as skills, LA / HA spam. People would simply do the math on what causes the most dps, and then spam that. Possibly using a single LA to proc something, but IMO, more likely try to circumvent it.

    Light and heavy attacks do not cause a separate global cooldown activation, precisely because if they did, people would not use them. Light attacks are a damage amplifier and 'proccer', while heavy attacks are for resource restoration. A perfect solution? No. A bug? No. It is IMO a reasonable way to find a use for the light and heavy attacks, though it is a bit nonsensical from a realism perspective (why would heavy attacks restore resources?).

    I must also question WHY people consistently bring this up. There are all sorts of design decisions in ESO you can take issue with. Why do we still have battle spirit when people make unkillable tanks? Why is it impossible to properly hear the voicing in character creation? Why are classes tied into different elements? For that matter, why the hell do we have block casting (a nonsensical concept if ever there was one)?

    I can only assume that this is simply a selfish plea by people who think that the reason they are not successful (however they measure it) in ESO is that AC adds magic numbers of DPS and allows people to 'hit you with 10 attacks in 1 second'.

    It doesn´t work that way.

  • Dusk_Coven
    Dusk_Coven
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Why cant people who are against AC play another game?

    People who feel AC is illogical are the ones who are FOR playing the game.
    They want to see animations that were intended.
    They are not trying to subvert game mechanics by doing such things as blocking when you aren't blocking any incoming attacks.
    They are not trying to push dps with tricks so that half the phases of a trial fight don't even show up.

    People who want AC are the ones who would be happier playing another game.

    Or how about this: To make it fair, the devs program in AC into the bosses and they machine-gun you down with unnecessary split-second blocks in between their attacks. And you don't even see the tells because the animations got cancelled.
    If that's how they designed combat from the very start, who would even be playing this game at all?
    Edited by Dusk_Coven on January 31, 2020 3:24PM
  • Paramedicus
    Paramedicus
    ✭✭✭
    MaleAmazon wrote: »
    You do not get damage from an action you cancel "before it is finished". The action is 'finished' once you use it, if it is insta-cast. Projectile travel time etc notwithstanding. The animation is inconsequential and it will not help you to see it since the damage is already done. I mean, what are you hoping to accomplish? "The reason I can´t defend vs a dual wielder is that it is hard to see the light attacks they weave in between skills, and of course I usually don´t assume that someone who jumps me and attacks me with all they have got means I should maybe block or roll".
    If you want to be technical about it, then damage of instant cast abilities isn't really that instant: it takes so much time to apply that makes me think that devs added some 'lag' to them (kinda like hidden pseudo-cast time). Idk if it was added as some anti-flood feature or if game updates this stuff so rarely - or just to make combat look less odd with insta damage popping.
    MaleAmazon wrote: »
    You do not get damage from cancelling a cast-time action before the cast time has passed.

    And, putting LA (and, I assume, HA on some separate?) on a cooldown that is equal to the animation would only accomplish the following:

    -Make combat more boring.
    -Make combat less skillbased (yes, weaving is a skill. It is not a super hard skill, but it is what you get).
    -Make combat more gear dependent.
    -Make the meta shift to instacast spam, or, if LA / HA was adjusted to do as much damage as skills, LA / HA spam. People would simply do the math on what causes the most dps, and then spam that. Possibly using a single LA to proc something, but IMO, more likely try to circumvent it.
    Not players fault that devs lack imagination to make combat interesting..

    PC EU
    /script JumpToHouse("@Paramedicus")
    
    ↑↑↑ Feel free to visit my house if you need to use Transmute Station or Trial Dummy with buffs (look for Harrowing Reaper) ↑↑↑
  • r34lian
    r34lian
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is mashing two buttons simultaneously is skill lmao
    Not to mention that "skill" is highly depended on latency wow I didn't know skill should depend upon networks as well
    Animation cancelling cannot be associated with so called skill
    2000 CP • 18 Maxed Characters • 6 Altmers • 7 Redguards • Necromancer Orc • Warden Dunmer • DK Nord • DK Imperial • Templar Breton
This discussion has been closed.