PvP Healer Discussion (Builds, Strats, Positioning)

Gravord

exeeter702 wrote: »

Austacker wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Well screwing it up is a matter of perspective. In almost every pvp game I’ve played one of the chief complaints was always ‘Whine... I need a healer to be competitive’. It was true, even though it was whiney, because of the trinity MMOs are based on. You need a tank, healer and dps.

WoW broke this mold and became really solo friendly which made it a smash hit. ESO pvp is basicly trying to do the same thing with pvp. Everyone’s a healer, tank and dps at the same time. Some classes can do some of those things better than others, but the builds that sacrifice too much to specialize in one facet of that suffer.

In starter BGs full healers work okay, cyrodiil larger groups they work well. However as you do more BGs and your MMR rank goes up I’ve found full healer builds uncompetitive. People can bounce between 20 percent to full health in a couple seconds, adding damage to people’s burst as a healer can make the difference between wiping a ball of 4 and being wiped.

Another way of looking at it is in pvp roles are switched around (traditionally). Damage dealers are straight forward, healers are the tanks, and the tanks specialize in cc and debuffs. It’s how it works out in pvp against competent players.

"However as you do more BGs and your MMR rank goes up I’ve found full healer builds uncompetitive."

Yep, I mostly play in BGs and I've progressively watch my healer get cremated more by not just higher MMR players, but the premade groups which ZOS just cannot stop from streamrolling pugs in BGs.

I think if you're a pure DPS, you can pretty much have a decent time at any MMR if you're a solo player, but those higher MMR brackets are just brutal for the specialist roles.

Maybe tank has a better time of it, but my experience as a healer just has me hating PvP in ESO. It's really not fun at all for a number of reasons and to be frank and honest, I've basically given up on it now and just get in - do the dailies - get out.

If I want to PvP, I'll switch to a DPS toon and actually enjoy the experience I think.

I'll leave the healer out for PvE and save my sanity.

I think if I was in a PvP guild and could roll with guildie pre-mades in group chat being heals would be awesome fun.

But if you're stuck solo and have to PUG your way through, it's just bad all round and not fun.

Well as someone with 15 years of small scale mmo pvp healer experience under their belt. I assure you, ESO is never going to provide with the type of satifysing pvp experiences where each player player carries an equal degree of burden of performance ie the philosophy in game design where the larger / more numerous player count involved, the less each player ACTUALY has the opportunity to allow thier personable skill / ability to dictate the outcome of a pvp exchange. Wow arena and its smaller bgs and swtor with its WZ and 4v4 arenas handled this very well and made healer very skillful and in depth.

In ESO, it's small scale instanced format is a wash in terms of getting that same level of satisfaction for the mere fact that it lumps all its various game modes (including tdm) into each bg map and more importantly bgs are 4v4v4 which will never by virtue of simply existing, be competivte in any way whatsoever.

In cyrdodil satisfying fights where the opportunity to outplay other players are too infrequent. You have small groups of good players making plays against larger groups of casual players but that in itself is only satisfying from a spectator's perspective since you are winning in what is otherwise unfavorable odds. General rule of thumb in games that have wide open pvp areas is eventually it boils down to attrition where one side will inevitably generate more heads and simply reset the entire process in another location until one side no longer is interested in congregating at in a given active location.

Anyone that truly wants to get into an exchange where they can outplay an opponent that is not a potatoe can try and fish for said scenarios in ic or cyrdodil but it's an exception to the rule. Cyrdoil is far more concerned with the idea and spectacle of being in a big battle, where players can do the most uninvolved undemanding actions and say they are helping all while being caught up in the "war aspect" of playing siege equipment all the while someone in chat is unknowingly RPing as some kind of field commander making nonsensical strategical commands as if they even matter in the grand scheme of things.

You wont find what you are looking for here in eso unfortunately. Not in the same capacity anyways. Pvp healing has its satisfying moments in small group play, but their are far too many avenues when experienced players get into an exchange between 2 evenly matched groups where it ends in a stalemate.

Thats why advocating 4vs4 bg deathmach exactly in SWTOR style in ESO. It would work here and give boost to organized pvp gameplay.

Austacker

exeeter702 wrote: »

Anyone that truly wants to get into an exchange where they can outplay an opponent that is not a potatoe can try and fish for said scenarios in ic or cyrdodil but it's an exception to the rule. Cyrdoil is far more concerned with the idea and spectacle of being in a big battle, where players can do the most uninvolved undemanding actions and say they are helping all while being caught up in the "war aspect" of playing siege equipment all the while someone in chat is unknowingly RPing as some kind of field commander making nonsensical strategical commands as if they even matter in the grand scheme of things.

You wont find what you are looking for here in eso unfortunately. Not in the same capacity anyways. Pvp healing has its satisfying moments in small group play, but their are far too many avenues when experienced players get into an exchange between 2 evenly matched groups where it ends in a stalemate.

Yeah, this is the aspect of the ESO game design I think frustrates me the most.

The 'yeah, we do have game design theory around the holy trinity - but - not'

It's the inconsistency in game design mechanics which make it a truly frustrating experience if you're looking to take on a specific role in that framework (tank or heals) where DPS remains consistently dominant over all.

When you're doing PvE, the whole 'we don't really need a Healer or even a tank for X content' is something the community generally lets slide as you will still clear the content, which drives satisfaction and delivers reward.

In PvP, it's completely different. It feels like unless you are seriously over powered on gear/rank/configuration/spec that it honestly doesn't even matter that you try and do X role because it'll all be overshadowed by burst DPS.

Unless you have the ESO equivalent of a trinket (Vamp mist) you basically cop the same thing over and over and over again.

Stun - burst - drain - dead.

And there's very little you can do about it. It's GREAT as an experience for the DPS because it's an easy faceroll for them. They don't even need to 'fight' at all, no reaction - just unblockable button combo and 'I win' button mashing.

That's not satisfying combat at all.

The ONLY way to avoid getting frustrated as a PvP healer for me is to stay on the fringes, use LOS, manage your mana pool best you can, ensure you don't get focused and have team mates who actually understand rolling as a single units is a win.

IMHO NOT having actual ranked arena PvP play in ESO is a massive opportunity missed.

4x4x4 BGs are just stupid. I'd take 6v6 games any day. Same player count, better focus.

exeeter702

Austacker wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Anyone that truly wants to get into an exchange where they can outplay an opponent that is not a potatoe can try and fish for said scenarios in ic or cyrdodil but it's an exception to the rule. Cyrdoil is far more concerned with the idea and spectacle of being in a big battle, where players can do the most uninvolved undemanding actions and say they are helping all while being caught up in the "war aspect" of playing siege equipment all the while someone in chat is unknowingly RPing as some kind of field commander making nonsensical strategical commands as if they even matter in the grand scheme of things.

You wont find what you are looking for here in eso unfortunately. Not in the same capacity anyways. Pvp healing has its satisfying moments in small group play, but their are far too many avenues when experienced players get into an exchange between 2 evenly matched groups where it ends in a stalemate.

Yeah, this is the aspect of the ESO game design I think frustrates me the most.

The 'yeah, we do have game design theory around the holy trinity - but - not'

It's the inconsistency in game design mechanics which make it a truly frustrating experience if you're looking to take on a specific role in that framework (tank or heals) where DPS remains consistently dominant over all.

When you're doing PvE, the whole 'we don't really need a Healer or even a tank for X content' is something the community generally lets slide as you will still clear the content, which drives satisfaction and delivers reward.

In PvP, it's completely different. It feels like unless you are seriously over powered on gear/rank/configuration/spec that it honestly doesn't even matter that you try and do X role because it'll all be overshadowed by burst DPS.

Unless you have the ESO equivalent of a trinket (Vamp mist) you basically cop the same thing over and over and over again.

Stun - burst - drain - dead.

And there's very little you can do about it. It's GREAT as an experience for the DPS because it's an easy faceroll for them. They don't even need to 'fight' at all, no reaction - just unblockable button combo and 'I win' button mashing.

That's not satisfying combat at all.

The ONLY way to avoid getting frustrated as a PvP healer for me is to stay on the fringes, use LOS, manage your mana pool best you can, ensure you don't get focused and have team mates who actually understand rolling as a single units is a win.

IMHO NOT having actual ranked arena PvP play in ESO is a massive opportunity missed.

4x4x4 BGs are just stupid. I'd take 6v6 games any day. Same player count, better focus.

I want to stress however that it is not impossible to build a tanky enough healer capable of keeping a small handful of allies alive while still possessing the ability to pressure a targets health pool. The general principle in trinity based mmo class pvp design where a single healer should be able to counteract a single damage dealer still applies in this game and getting destroyed by the pressure of a single damage oriented build as a healer is possibly l2p or issues with gear / cp level discrepancies.

Gravord

exeeter702 wrote: »

Austacker wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Anyone that truly wants to get into an exchange where they can outplay an opponent that is not a potatoe can try and fish for said scenarios in ic or cyrdodil but it's an exception to the rule. Cyrdoil is far more concerned with the idea and spectacle of being in a big battle, where players can do the most uninvolved undemanding actions and say they are helping all while being caught up in the "war aspect" of playing siege equipment all the while someone in chat is unknowingly RPing as some kind of field commander making nonsensical strategical commands as if they even matter in the grand scheme of things.

You wont find what you are looking for here in eso unfortunately. Not in the same capacity anyways. Pvp healing has its satisfying moments in small group play, but their are far too many avenues when experienced players get into an exchange between 2 evenly matched groups where it ends in a stalemate.

Yeah, this is the aspect of the ESO game design I think frustrates me the most.

The 'yeah, we do have game design theory around the holy trinity - but - not'

It's the inconsistency in game design mechanics which make it a truly frustrating experience if you're looking to take on a specific role in that framework (tank or heals) where DPS remains consistently dominant over all.

When you're doing PvE, the whole 'we don't really need a Healer or even a tank for X content' is something the community generally lets slide as you will still clear the content, which drives satisfaction and delivers reward.

In PvP, it's completely different. It feels like unless you are seriously over powered on gear/rank/configuration/spec that it honestly doesn't even matter that you try and do X role because it'll all be overshadowed by burst DPS.

Unless you have the ESO equivalent of a trinket (Vamp mist) you basically cop the same thing over and over and over again.

Stun - burst - drain - dead.

And there's very little you can do about it. It's GREAT as an experience for the DPS because it's an easy faceroll for them. They don't even need to 'fight' at all, no reaction - just unblockable button combo and 'I win' button mashing.

That's not satisfying combat at all.

The ONLY way to avoid getting frustrated as a PvP healer for me is to stay on the fringes, use LOS, manage your mana pool best you can, ensure you don't get focused and have team mates who actually understand rolling as a single units is a win.

IMHO NOT having actual ranked arena PvP play in ESO is a massive opportunity missed.

4x4x4 BGs are just stupid. I'd take 6v6 games any day. Same player count, better focus.

I want to stress however that it is not impossible to build a tanky enough healer capable of keeping a small handful of allies alive while still possessing the ability to pressure a targets health pool. The general principle in trinity based mmo class pvp design where a single healer should be able to counteract a single damage dealer still applies in this game and getting destroyed by the pressure of a single damage oriented build as a healer is possibly l2p or issues with gear / cp level discrepancies.

Too few ppl in ESO realize power and utylity of a pvp tank. Or how to build one. With right player on a right class/spec/gear you can cut enemy dps by 65% almost perma uptime, with tons of cc and buffs/debuffs going, making your team near immortal. And adding that element would allow healers shine even more. Classic 2dd/1h/1t setup from other games apply to ESO aswell.

wheem_ESO

Austacker wrote: »

I do queue BGs, it's terrible.

You go against endless pre-mades - you're trying to get 2nd place at best most of the time if you solo queue with randoms.

If the current PTS patch notes make it to live, it will soon be impossible to group queue for Battlegrounds. I'd personally rather they just split group and solo queues apart, so that running some 4v4v4 all-premade games were still possible if people wanted to, but solo-only does make things a bit more fair outside of that.

I've never really played a dedicated healer for BGs, but have been considering doing that with my Necromancer for a long time. The class' offense was decent (though still inferior to most everyone else) during the Scalebreaker "DOT Meta," but has otherwise been garbage. Using the Boneyard self-synergy with Harmony Jewelry can work, but it's oftentimes pretty finnicky, and is too easily avoided by good players in BGs.

Not 100% sure what sets to go for, though, since Mag Necro sustain can be fairly bad compared to some other healer setups. It seems like every healer in Cyrodiil wants to run Kagrenac's Hope, but that's pretty useless in BGs.

Iskiab

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Austacker wrote: »

I do queue BGs, it's terrible.

You go against endless pre-mades - you're trying to get 2nd place at best most of the time if you solo queue with randoms.

If the current PTS patch notes make it to live, it will soon be impossible to group queue for Battlegrounds. I'd personally rather they just split group and solo queues apart, so that running some 4v4v4 all-premade games were still possible if people wanted to, but solo-only does make things a bit more fair outside of that.

I've never really played a dedicated healer for BGs, but have been considering doing that with my Necromancer for a long time. The class' offense was decent (though still inferior to most everyone else) during the Scalebreaker "DOT Meta," but has otherwise been garbage. Using the Boneyard self-synergy with Harmony Jewelry can work, but it's oftentimes pretty finnicky, and is too easily avoided by good players in BGs.

Not 100% sure what sets to go for, though, since Mag Necro sustain can be fairly bad compared to some other healer setups. It seems like every healer in Cyrodiil wants to run Kagrenac's Hope, but that's pretty useless in BGs.

I’d go transmutation, swift/pariah and x monster set. It was a good BG setup for when I healed on my magblade. Then since transmutation is a proc set you can use a weapon set, potatoes or BRP DW on the other bar.

IDK much about Necros but it’d probably be a good place to start.

Taleof2Cities

Gravord wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Austacker wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Anyone that truly wants to get into an exchange where they can outplay an opponent that is not a potatoe can try and fish for said scenarios in ic or cyrdodil but it's an exception to the rule. Cyrdoil is far more concerned with the idea and spectacle of being in a big battle, where players can do the most uninvolved undemanding actions and say they are helping all while being caught up in the "war aspect" of playing siege equipment all the while someone in chat is unknowingly RPing as some kind of field commander making nonsensical strategical commands as if they even matter in the grand scheme of things.

You wont find what you are looking for here in eso unfortunately. Not in the same capacity anyways. Pvp healing has its satisfying moments in small group play, but their are far too many avenues when experienced players get into an exchange between 2 evenly matched groups where it ends in a stalemate.

Yeah, this is the aspect of the ESO game design I think frustrates me the most.

The 'yeah, we do have game design theory around the holy trinity - but - not'

It's the inconsistency in game design mechanics which make it a truly frustrating experience if you're looking to take on a specific role in that framework (tank or heals) where DPS remains consistently dominant over all.

When you're doing PvE, the whole 'we don't really need a Healer or even a tank for X content' is something the community generally lets slide as you will still clear the content, which drives satisfaction and delivers reward.

In PvP, it's completely different. It feels like unless you are seriously over powered on gear/rank/configuration/spec that it honestly doesn't even matter that you try and do X role because it'll all be overshadowed by burst DPS.

Unless you have the ESO equivalent of a trinket (Vamp mist) you basically cop the same thing over and over and over again.

Stun - burst - drain - dead.

And there's very little you can do about it. It's GREAT as an experience for the DPS because it's an easy faceroll for them. They don't even need to 'fight' at all, no reaction - just unblockable button combo and 'I win' button mashing.

That's not satisfying combat at all.

The ONLY way to avoid getting frustrated as a PvP healer for me is to stay on the fringes, use LOS, manage your mana pool best you can, ensure you don't get focused and have team mates who actually understand rolling as a single units is a win.

IMHO NOT having actual ranked arena PvP play in ESO is a massive opportunity missed.

4x4x4 BGs are just stupid. I'd take 6v6 games any day. Same player count, better focus.

I want to stress however that it is not impossible to build a tanky enough healer capable of keeping a small handful of allies alive while still possessing the ability to pressure a targets health pool. The general principle in trinity based mmo class pvp design where a single healer should be able to counteract a single damage dealer still applies in this game and getting destroyed by the pressure of a single damage oriented build as a healer is possibly l2p or issues with gear / cp level discrepancies.

Too few ppl in ESO realize power and utylity of a pvp tank. Or how to build one. With right player on a right class/spec/gear you can cut enemy dps by 65% almost perma uptime, with tons of cc and buffs/debuffs going, making your team near immortal. And adding that element would allow healers shine even more. Classic 2dd/1h/1t setup from other games apply to ESO aswell.

You're right, @Gravord ... there are a lot of good Battlegrounds utility, support, and tank builds out there.

But now we're getting pretty far away from what the OP wants to talk about - healing in Cyrodiil.

Gravord

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Austacker wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Anyone that truly wants to get into an exchange where they can outplay an opponent that is not a potatoe can try and fish for said scenarios in ic or cyrdodil but it's an exception to the rule. Cyrdoil is far more concerned with the idea and spectacle of being in a big battle, where players can do the most uninvolved undemanding actions and say they are helping all while being caught up in the "war aspect" of playing siege equipment all the while someone in chat is unknowingly RPing as some kind of field commander making nonsensical strategical commands as if they even matter in the grand scheme of things.

You wont find what you are looking for here in eso unfortunately. Not in the same capacity anyways. Pvp healing has its satisfying moments in small group play, but their are far too many avenues when experienced players get into an exchange between 2 evenly matched groups where it ends in a stalemate.

Yeah, this is the aspect of the ESO game design I think frustrates me the most.

The 'yeah, we do have game design theory around the holy trinity - but - not'

It's the inconsistency in game design mechanics which make it a truly frustrating experience if you're looking to take on a specific role in that framework (tank or heals) where DPS remains consistently dominant over all.

When you're doing PvE, the whole 'we don't really need a Healer or even a tank for X content' is something the community generally lets slide as you will still clear the content, which drives satisfaction and delivers reward.

In PvP, it's completely different. It feels like unless you are seriously over powered on gear/rank/configuration/spec that it honestly doesn't even matter that you try and do X role because it'll all be overshadowed by burst DPS.

Unless you have the ESO equivalent of a trinket (Vamp mist) you basically cop the same thing over and over and over again.

Stun - burst - drain - dead.

And there's very little you can do about it. It's GREAT as an experience for the DPS because it's an easy faceroll for them. They don't even need to 'fight' at all, no reaction - just unblockable button combo and 'I win' button mashing.

That's not satisfying combat at all.

The ONLY way to avoid getting frustrated as a PvP healer for me is to stay on the fringes, use LOS, manage your mana pool best you can, ensure you don't get focused and have team mates who actually understand rolling as a single units is a win.

IMHO NOT having actual ranked arena PvP play in ESO is a massive opportunity missed.

4x4x4 BGs are just stupid. I'd take 6v6 games any day. Same player count, better focus.

I want to stress however that it is not impossible to build a tanky enough healer capable of keeping a small handful of allies alive while still possessing the ability to pressure a targets health pool. The general principle in trinity based mmo class pvp design where a single healer should be able to counteract a single damage dealer still applies in this game and getting destroyed by the pressure of a single damage oriented build as a healer is possibly l2p or issues with gear / cp level discrepancies.

Too few ppl in ESO realize power and utylity of a pvp tank. Or how to build one. With right player on a right class/spec/gear you can cut enemy dps by 65% almost perma uptime, with tons of cc and buffs/debuffs going, making your team near immortal. And adding that element would allow healers shine even more. Classic 2dd/1h/1t setup from other games apply to ESO aswell.

You're right, @Gravord ... there are a lot of good Battlegrounds utility, support, and tank builds out there.

But now we're getting pretty far away from what the OP wants to talk about - healing in Cyrodiil.

Healer in Cyro is the easiest. 4 man bg is where it gets harder and need more player skill and build consideration.

Austacker

Gravord wrote: »

Healer in Cyro is the easiest. 4 man bg is where it gets harder and need more player skill and build consideration.

Build doesn't matter in 4man BGs in the current state of PvP allowing pre-mades to go against solos.

It just makes the experience not fun at all if you queue solo.

I know it's being 'fixed' in an upcoming patch, but right now it's a pretty horrible experience and by time the patch drops, midyear mayhem is over anyway.

ie pointless

Atm I'm running 5 x Impregnable, 5 x Transmute, Bloodspawn's monster set - All golded - 5 Piece heavy, one medium one light.

Artaeum Pickled Fish Bowl food

Buffed : 35463 Magika, 2100 Mag Recovery - 25126 Health - 13163 Stamina - Spell Resist 24841, Physical Resist 19528 and Crit Resist 4059

Sword n Board front bar, Resto back bar

It's a pretty tanky build for a healer, but when I get focused... splat.

It's the same old same old - stunlock, mana drain, burst, dead.

It's frustrating because there's literally nothing you can do to stop it and that's the part ZOS devs just DO NOT GET!

When you create a situation where a player cannot even control their toon, you've ruined the experience.

Oh it's LOADS of FUN for those who are doing it "Hey look, I win!" but it's a terrible experience being on the receiving end.

This is why I hate - and detest - PvP in this game.


At least in WoW you get a trinket that works NO MATTER WHAT. But in this game? If you're not a vamp, you're SOL.

Good job Zos! Well balanced!

Not.