Why nerf thorns skills ?

MerguezMan

Nobody jumped from this:

"The following “thorns”, or damage return-based abilities, now have a 7 meter range on their effect, rather than infinite ranges:
Spiked Armor and its morphs
Living Dark’s Snare
Spiked Bone Armor"


This is so unfair to DK. Slotting spiked armor used to be a (slightly) punishing return for any attacker, now it's only punishing in short range ?
Are you encouraging gankers ?

And at the other end of spectrum, Defensive Rune keeps infinite range ?


At least let these abilities long-range, something like 28-30m.

MashmalloMan

Yeah, very odd, 7m is way to small. 22m is the gap closing/ranged cc benchmark. That should AT LEAST be the range for these "thorn abilities". Why only punish melee ranged players? I don't understand the change at all.

MerguezMan wrote: »

And at the other end of spectrum, Defensive Rune keeps infinite range ?

Why are you trying to throw Sorc under the bus and how does it relate to abilities that inflict damage back to attackers? Defensive Rune stuns an atacking enemy and causes no damage. It's range shouldn't matter, do you really think stunning someone 20-35m away is helpful? If you wanted that range, you would use Rune Cage since you also get damage with that morph.

Jaraal

MerguezMan wrote: »

"Spiked Bone Armor"

I'm still trying to figure out what this is. Google search is returning nothing.

Anyron

MerguezMan wrote: »

Nobody jumped from this:

"The following “thorns”, or damage return-based abilities, now have a 7 meter range on their effect, rather than infinite ranges:
Spiked Armor and its morphs
Living Dark’s Snare
Spiked Bone Armor"


This is so unfair to DK. Slotting spiked armor used to be a (slightly) punishing return for any attacker, now it's only punishing in short range ?
Are you encouraging gankers ?

And at the other end of spectrum, Defensive Rune keeps infinite range ?


At least let these abilities long-range, something like 28-30m.

Defensive rune is probably one of the worst skills sorcerer have.. It does no damage, With incredibly high cost + it only stuns when enemy is attacking . It can also be VERY easily dodged. You are also getting major resolve from spiked armor if you forgot about that .

MerguezMan

[Edit]

Jaraal wrote: »

MerguezMan wrote: »

"Spiked Bone Armor"

I'm still trying to figure out what this is. Google search is returning nothing.

That's probably a morph of Necromancer's Bone armor. Wrong translation of Beckoning armor ?
[/Edit]

Anyron wrote: »

MerguezMan wrote: »

Nobody jumped from this:

"The following “thorns”, or damage return-based abilities, now have a 7 meter range on their effect, rather than infinite ranges:
Spiked Armor and its morphs
Living Dark’s Snare
Spiked Bone Armor"


This is so unfair to DK. Slotting spiked armor used to be a (slightly) punishing return for any attacker, now it's only punishing in short range ?
Are you encouraging gankers ?

And at the other end of spectrum, Defensive Rune keeps infinite range ?

At least let these abilities long-range, something like 28-30m.

Defensive rune is probably one of the worst skills sorcerer have.. It does no damage, With incredibly high cost + it only stuns when enemy is attacking . It can also be VERY easily dodged. You are also getting major resolve from spiked armor if you forgot about that .

I didn't forget. What else gives Major Resolve ?

Boundless storm - 448 Electric damage every second for 23s (can affect Concussed status)
vs
Volatile armor - 762 Magic damage returned from direct attacks for 20s

On one side there's a constant pressure to nearby enemies , on the other there is a punition for non-dot attacks only. Let's not forget the possibility to have pets, that would target long-range opponents and get in your sight (without proper limit).

Now check in DK's class kit to find long-range passive-agressive skills...

Once again, why nerf Thorns ? It's unfair to DK.

Kadoozy

The damage for thorns has always been mediocre anyway. Not sure why they even keep the mechanic in the game. They have to keep the damage low so that people don't cry about free damage, but it has always remained so low as to be insignificant and not worthwhile to build around. I have waited years for Harbinger to actually be useful and at this point it likely never will be.

Ladislao

Jaraal wrote: »

MerguezMan wrote: »

"Spiked Bone Armor"

I'm still trying to figure out what this is. Google search is returning nothing.

Of course, it is Spiked Bone Shield.

Jaraal

Ladislao wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

MerguezMan wrote: »

"Spiked Bone Armor"

I'm still trying to figure out what this is. Google search is returning nothing.

Of course, it is Spiked Bone Shield.

Spiked Bone Shield tooltip already says returns melee damage only, I don’t think adding a 7 meter cap would make any difference, unless there are mobs out there pounding on me with some really long arms.

ElvenVeil

it is a nerf nobody asked for . Maybe zos just wanted to nerf dk a bit out of habit?

Grimlok_S

Thematically, it kind of makes sense.. I mean 8m radius would mesh better with other "melee" options but whatever.

The majority of DK builds prefer to fight in melee range anyway. As long as you're smothering your opponent they should still be receiving the thorns damage.

NBrookus

As nerfs go, this is pretty much pointless to worry about. The damage is so small it's not like that sniper is going to tremble in fear at the 300 or so damage they take from that 7k+ ranged attack.

Solariken

I'm definitely ok with the nerf to Living Dark, that snare is obnoxious. The others though I agree don't make sense to nerf.

Rahar

NBrookus wrote: »

As nerfs go, this is pretty much pointless to worry about. The damage is so small it's not like that sniper is going to tremble in fear at the 300 or so damage they take from that 7k+ ranged attack.

Pretty much this. The range could be bumped up on them to be mid-range (somewhere around 15m, like Clench?) but otherwise this was just a QoL fix for NBs defensive cloaking at range.

ElvenVeil wrote: »

it is a nerf nobody asked for . Maybe zos just wanted to nerf dk a bit out of habit?

That's a strange way to spell nightblade

MerguezMan

Rahar wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

As nerfs go, this is pretty much pointless to worry about. The damage is so small it's not like that sniper is going to tremble in fear at the 300 or so damage they take from that 7k+ ranged attack.

Pretty much this. The range could be bumped up on them to be mid-range (somewhere around 15m, like Clench?) but otherwise this was just a QoL fix for NBs defensive cloaking at range.

I see...

Ok, can we change it again ?

"The following “thorns”, or damage return-based abilities, now have a 7 meter range on their effect, rather than infinite ranges:(...)
Unless your attacker is a Nightblade. In such case, the Nightblade will be instantly killed on his next cast of Cloak for an ongoing period of 1 hour."

That way would be perfect.

Joy_Division

Probably because the theme of the Spiked Armor skill is clearly meant to mimic a dragon's thick and scaly hide that would injure melee attacks that would not affect someone using a bow, something just about every other fantasy game with similar "thorny" armor mechanics recognizes and thus differentiated between melee and ranged.

That being said, I think it's wrong to just take something away or slap a nerf, regardless if it makes logical sense, and not give the players something in return.

MashmalloMan

Joy_Division wrote: »

Probably because the theme of the Spiked Armor skill is clearly meant to mimic a dragon's thick and scaly hide that would injure melee attacks that would not affect someone using a bow, something just about every other fantasy game with similar "thorny" armor mechanics recognizes and thus differentiated between melee and ranged.

That being said, I think it's wrong to just take something away or slap a nerf, regardless is it makes logical sense, and not give the players something in return.

Yeah, thats the thing. If the range is reduced to be melee, then the logical next step is to increase the damage it does back to attackers to compensate the range loss. They must of thought the damage was in an okay place to not make any changes.. but it doesn't feel good to get a straight up nerf no one has ever complained about.

NyassaV

Why can your spiked armor reach me at 22+ meters when it is attached to you and you are nowhere near me???

MerguezMan

NyassaV wrote: »

Why can your spiked armor reach me at 22+ meters when it is attached to you and you are nowhere near me???

The same reason Defensive rune stuns you while attached to Sorcerer and nowhere near you: it's magic.

Sanguinor2

NyassaV wrote: »

Why can your spiked armor reach me at 22+ meters when it is attached to you and you are nowhere near me???

Same reason People can turn invisible with a giant beam of light on top of their head. That reason being dont search for logic on what does what in a Fantasy game with magic involved because you wont find it.

Rahar

MerguezMan wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

As nerfs go, this is pretty much pointless to worry about. The damage is so small it's not like that sniper is going to tremble in fear at the 300 or so damage they take from that 7k+ ranged attack.

Pretty much this. The range could be bumped up on them to be mid-range (somewhere around 15m, like Clench?) but otherwise this was just a QoL fix for NBs defensive cloaking at range.

I see...

Ok, can we change it again ?

"The following “thorns”, or damage return-based abilities, now have a 7 meter range on their effect, rather than infinite ranges:(...)
Unless your attacker is a Nightblade. In such case, the Nightblade will be instantly killed on his next cast of Cloak for an ongoing period of 1 hour."

That way would be perfect.

seems good to me

DarkGottbeard

It is easy to downplay the power of volatile armor and call this a "pick on DK" nerf. But if you look closely at the math, this is a very good change.

First, you can state that volatile armor has weak damage just because the tool tip is in low increments, but the skill really is one of the highest damage per GCD skills available to DK, even out performing flames of oblivion in that respect. It is more of a death by a thousand cuts type of skill since the spike can trigger individually for each incoming direct dmg ability regardless of range. It often returns 2 to 5 instances of "spikes" per opponent/ per second. Since DK skills have poor dmg ratios and high base dmg they have always performed well with sustain/penetration builds. It is very easy to get a mag dk spikes to reliably hit for 700 dmg. That is a 1400-2800 dmg return per second to everyone fighting you. Now i don't mind porcupine builds. But this isnt a build... You just put on your armor buff and cast it every 20 seconds. Adding a range component brings it back into the original design of the skill (only triggering on melee atks), removes some of this automatic dmg to the world, and cuts down on the number of pointless passive calculations in pvp( A.K.A. lower lag).

Second, this skill was notorious for buggy interactions with skills and set bonuses. Example, Kyne's Kiss paired with spiked armor gives you perfect stam sustain while running outnumbered. Lowering the range fixes many of these problems.

Third, this change fits with the theme and style of DK. Dk's are dangerous up close. If you let a DK dummy parse on you, its a bad time.

I know it sucks to get nerfs of any kind but credit where credit is due, this change is uncharacteristically correct.

MerguezMan

So we do agree this is a no-counterpart nerf to DK damage at mid-long range:
- it doesn't make DK more dangerous than they already are in close range
- it destroys a so-far reliable long-range defensive existing mechanic
- there is nothing added to help long-range defense (not even movement speed)

[Sarcasm] And even worse, it is mainly a QoL help for NB gankers. [/sarcasm]

I can't agree this is "good" change.

deviousthevile

I don't play a DK and even I think that is ridiculous. The range should stay consistent with the longest range ability, which I would like to say is Snipe? Sure it might hurt me when I am being a turd plinking arrows at you from a distance, but it's not significant damage so I overlook it in most cases, so why they felt the need to limit the effects range is mind boggling. Granted I am definitely in a L2P spot with DKs, I've always used my spike armor as a little jab at the person who is inevitably going to kill me. I mean if a NB like me sees an issue with it, I can only imagine how irritated DKs are with this, sorry the nerf horse seems to want nothing more than to kick you guys in the head.

ElvenVeil

I only play non cp pvp, and I have done that for years. There is little doubt that at least in no cp, dk is the weakest class available and you can hardly even find dks in cyrodiil anymore. I probably have better chance of running into an emp than a dk on an average stroll through cyrodiil. Nerfing random stuff that nobody asked for is just plain poor design philosophy, but when it happens to an already underperforming class it starts feeling really silly

Grimlok_S

This could also be a bandaid fix to some unintended interactions. Earlier this week I (A DK) was pulled by Necro's armor buff after he light attacked me from range...

NyassaV

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Why can your spiked armor reach me at 22+ meters when it is attached to you and you are nowhere near me???

Same reason People can turn invisible with a giant beam of light on top of their head. That reason being dont search for logic on what does what in a Fantasy game with magic involved because you wont find it.

The light still hits them so it doesn't really matter?

NyassaV

MerguezMan wrote: »

So we do agree this is a no-counterpart nerf to DK damage at mid-long range:
- it doesn't make DK more dangerous than they already are in close range
- it destroys a so-far reliable long-range defensive existing mechanic
- there is nothing added to help long-range defense (not even movement speed)

[Sarcasm] And even worse, it is mainly a QoL help for NB gankers. [/sarcasm]

I can't agree this is "good" change.

Not everyone who uses cloak is a ganker. If they have a proc set however...

Kadoin

Obviously because there is a way to abuse it we don't talk about...

ssewallb14_ESO

My guess would be performance or it possibly relating to the stuck in combat issue.