Why the nerfs to veteran Halls of Fabrication?

patch

These changes essentially remove any punishment for standing in aoes in most of the trial, and make it far easier. It demeans progress completely of people who saw the difficulty and decided to work through it anyway, and to accomplish what with these nerfs? I just can't understand, after all this time too.

Camb0Sl1ce

Im assuming its an attempt to make it more accesible, alot of players still cant clear vmol let alone vhof.

karekiz

Camb0Sl1ce wrote: »

Im assuming its an attempt to make it more accesible, alot of players still cant clear vmol let alone vhof.

I think they looked at VSS and its Pug rates against others released for a difficulty curve and feel good about having a Normal / Vet / Vet HM version of the same trial. I assume they are re balancing older DLC trials to be the same. Maybe not Vet HM on each boss, but deciding that vet base clear should be X difficult.

idk

Camb0Sl1ce wrote: »

Im assuming its an attempt to make it more accesible, alot of players still cant clear vmol let alone vhof.

This and it really only punished magicka builds and tanks.

patch

idk wrote: »

Camb0Sl1ce wrote: »

Im assuming its an attempt to make it more accesible, alot of players still cant clear vmol let alone vhof.

This and it really only punished magicka builds and tanks.

Not true, the stun removals effect stamina more than magicka who are standing near to the boss and dont manage to block it, whereas magicka stand far enough away to just move very easily.

bol

The nerfs make no sense. Keep the content challenging. There is enough power creep already. You still have normal mode which drops all the same gear? There is nothing else to be gained by completing it on vet, except titles. So why ruin the challenge? I really do not understand the thinking behind this.

CyberSkooma

This is actually a huge slap in the face to groups who have suffered through the infamous progression of vHoF. ZoS continues to nerf old content (While players get stronger) and it's completely diminishing achievements/skins/titles.

I hope all of these vHoF changes get reverted. I thought I was going to put my face through a pane of glass while reading the notes.

AndyMac

It’s years old content - so I guess they are trying to open it up a bit.

I have to wonder how many more clears this will produce tho - I almost never see nHOF groups forming in Crag. Players seem to avoid this trial altogether 😆

SodanTok

The difficult spike in vHoF or even nHoF compared to other trials is evident so thats the answer, like it or not.

Erelah

CyberSkooma wrote: »

This is actually a huge slap in the face to groups who have suffered through the infamous progression of vHoF. ZoS continues to nerf old content (While players get stronger) and it's completely diminishing achievements/skins/titles.

I hope all of these vHoF changes get reverted. I thought I was going to put my face through a pane of glass while reading the notes.

Do you know what is a huge slap in the face? CP levels. Back in my day you didn't enter into a dungeon unless you were Vet 5. Sure you could enter at Vet 1, but it would mean instant death. You did not enter trials until Vet 10. Sure there were only two trials back then. They ended up adding 6 more vet levels making things easy for those who didn't have skill. Then converted it over to that care bear CP system were 1 vet level equaled 10 CP. Now you see people on easy mode running things with an additional 650! Total slap in the face, then add in extra sets to make things face roll easy, customizing certain skill and traits.

I hope they revert all of that because until they do these minor changes you complain about is nothing.

P.S: Oh and while we are add it. Revert Doshia and Manimarco to their previous glory.

CyberSkooma

Erelah wrote: »

CyberSkooma wrote: »

This is actually a huge slap in the face to groups who have suffered through the infamous progression of vHoF. ZoS continues to nerf old content (While players get stronger) and it's completely diminishing achievements/skins/titles.

I hope all of these vHoF changes get reverted. I thought I was going to put my face through a pane of glass while reading the notes.

Do you know what is a huge slap in the face? CP levels. Back in my day you didn't enter into a dungeon unless you were Vet 5. Sure you could enter at Vet 1, but it would mean instant death. You did not enter trials until Vet 10. Sure there were only two trials back then. They ended up adding 6 more vet levels making things easy for those who didn't have skill. Then converted it over to that care bear CP system were 1 vet level equaled 10 CP. Now you see people on easy mode running things with an additional 650! Total slap in the face, then add in extra sets to make things face roll easy, customizing certain skill and traits.

I hope they revert all of that because until they do these minor changes you complain about is nothing.

P.S: Oh and while we are add it. Revert Doshia and Manimarco to their previous glory.

You're assuming for some reason that I support players having a whopping 810 spendable CP. I don't. But they do. So why nerf content?

Joy_Division

Probably because the trial is years old, has terribly thought out mechanics, and people have no interest in running it

Constant AoE attacks that drain your resources put in on the mother of all sustain nerfs patch? Nope, hard pass.

CyberSkooma

Joy_Division wrote: »

Probably because the trial is years old, has terribly thought out mechanics, and people have no interest in running it

Constant AoE attacks that drain your resources put in on the mother of all sustain nerfs patch? Nope, hard pass.

It's the only trial in the game that has mechanics you actually have to pay attention to.

Zybelle

Alienoutlaw

ibc

Inklings

Our worth as a player is not determined by whether or not others complete content.

bol

Inklings wrote: »

Our worth as a player is not determined by whether or not others complete content.

It is not about player worth. It is about playing experience. There is serious lack of challenging content in this game. vHoF although not hard is at least a trial where you actually have to pay attention to mechanics. Press block at times, change targets, re-position yourself, etc.... Now they are changing this to another trial dummy parse trial where everyone will just stack and burn and ignore everything that was designed into this trial. It is taking the fun away from running this trial. Why bother designing the mechanics in the first place if you make them so weak that they can be completely ignored? And for what reason? That some role-players can enter vHoF and complete it? They already have the 'Normal' mode trials. I always though Veteran content was supposed to be challenging, and HM reserved for the very best groups. So why lowering the bar, when we already have power creep that is making things easier every patch? It just makes no sense.

Inklings

bol wrote: »

Inklings wrote: »

Our worth as a player is not determined by whether or not others complete content.

It is not about player worth. It is about playing experience. There is serious lack of challenging content in this game. vHoF although not hard is at least a trial where you actually have to pay attention to mechanics. Press block at times, change targets, re-position yourself, etc.... Now they are changing this to another trial dummy parse trial where everyone will just stack and burn and ignore everything that was designed into this trial. It is taking the fun away from running this trial. Why bother designing the mechanics in the first place if you make them so weak that they can be completely ignored? And for what reason? That some role-players can enter vHoF and complete it? They already have the 'Normal' mode trials. I always though Veteran content was supposed to be challenging, and HM reserved for the very best groups. So why lowering the bar, when we already have power creep that is making things easier every patch? It just makes no sense.

It's very much about worth to a lot of players in this thread. Its filled with people complaining others will have it easier on content they struggled through and nothing more.. There is also A LOT of challenging content in this game and we are about to get even more over the next dlc and chapter. The amount of players who even try vet content is so low. The amount that complete it is even more minuscule. You're allowed to feel that you are not being challenged enough with content, and at my skill level I kinda of agree with ya. We as players need to look outside of our shoes and see changes like this as something that is better for the over all games population. ZOS knows where players struggle. Changes like these are done for a very good reason and though it does nothing to effect me i 100% support making the game more accessible to other players.

Rex-Umbra

It was harder than newer trials. Newest should be hardest. Oldest should be easiest.

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

We removed several comments that were baiting or off topic. As stated in our community rules:

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Thank you for your understanding

bol

Inklings wrote: »

It's very much about worth to a lot of players in this thread. Its filled with people complaining others will have it easier on content they struggled through and nothing more.. There is also A LOT of challenging content in this game and we are about to get even more over the next dlc and chapter. The amount of players who even try vet content is so low. The amount that complete it is even more minuscule. You're allowed to feel that you are not being challenged enough with content, and at my skill level I kinda of agree with ya. We as players need to look outside of our shoes and see changes like this as something that is better for the over all games population. ZOS knows where players struggle. Changes like these are done for a very good reason and though it does nothing to effect me i 100% support making the game more accessible to other players.

Well the game is being made more accessible to players via power creep already. And why should everyone be able to complete veteran trials? I mean if veteran trial is too hard for you, just play it on normal? But yes, from some comments I have realized as well that some players see their worth in achievements others don't have.

The sad thing is that I believe that vHoF has been a victim of a great misunderstanding on ZoS part. They have been probably looking at some statistics which tell them not many players run vHoF and even less complete it. It is a fact that this trial is not very popular and you are very unlikely to encounter pug groups being formed in craglorn for even nHoF. But the reason for that IMHO is not because the trial is hard. It is because it gives nothing that players need. The few of us that actually run in groups that can benefit from War Machine or Master Architect have farmed these sets long ago. And most players simply do not need that so they focus on running trials that actually give them drops that they need.

Nerfing vHoF is not going to make it more popular. As I very much doubt groups will be forming for the purpose of farming Refabricated motifs only. The only thing that will happen is, that even the few groups that still see some challenge in running this trial will no longer run it and we will all have just Sunspire to play with. Like nobody is chasing scores in Craglorn trials or vMoL. I just do not want another trial being brought down to FG1 difficulty.

If anything ZoS should be buffing the trials. Starting with the Craglorn ones and vMoL. Just to keep up with the power creep.

cheifsoap

bol wrote: »

If anything ZoS should be buffing the trials. Starting with the Craglorn ones and vMoL. Just to keep up with the power creep.

I disagree. I know on PS4; there are very few guilds that can clear vMoL and vHoF regularly and these guilds are combination of the same players. That tells me that if ZOS continues to cater to the top percentile of players in terms of accessible content, they're doomed to fail in increasing the player base. I think their approach in keeping the cool titles, such as Godslayer only accessible to those who want to be competitive is a good/healthy approach.

tmbrinks

I personally think that vMoL and vHoF are among the best trials in the game.

They are both challenging, have interesting mechanics, and require group cohesion to accomplish.

I can't fully fathom why they'd want to nerf the trial, when the combination of CP advancement (from when the trial was launched) and gear changes has drastically increased DPS and made the trial "easier" as a result.

vHoF doesn't even drop any gear that is different than what drops in nHoF, only difference is quality, it's not like vAS, vCR, vSS, where specific pieces of gear are locked behind hard mode.

I certainly get that older content should be easier, but it has been happening organically with the other changes to the game, and has continually moved in that direction.

If ZoS is looking at completion rates, it's fully understandable that vHoF is lower than others, because other than for the refabricated motifs, there is no incentive to run it on vet, if you're just going for gear, none of which is actually BiS anymore.

I guess I'll have to see what the extent of the changes are before I judge too harshly, but I will be disappointed if one of, in my opinion, the best trials gets nerfed to the point that it's a cakewalk. I think there should be some challenging content. Veteran trials constitute maybe 1% of the game, maybe. I think it's really okay if such a small portion of the game has some barriers to them.

ZOS_Finn

Hey Folks, looks like we omitted a Dev Comment for the Halls of Fabrication changes:

In reviewing Halls of Fabrication, we evaluated the Trial based on a number of factors - rate of completion, age of content, player feedback/sentiment… etc - and felt adjustments were needed. The above changes will result in the extreme difficulty spikes being toned down a bit, making it more accessible for more players.

Skelfish

If that's the reasoning, then the hard mode difficulty should not be included in the upcoming nerfs in order to make it stand out from regular veteran mode. It'll still be an attainable goal to beat it because the only people who are normally interested in hard modes are ones who want particular achievements, or guilds doing progression that have beaten vet and want the additional challenge.

Older trials can be made more accessible while still able to use hard mode as an intended bigger difficulty spike that is still attainable to clear.

bol

Maybe they should just make it possible to activate hard mode at the beginning of trial which leaves the trial as it was.
Since HM on last boss is actually pretty much the same as regular vet. It is not really a big jump in difficulty if you activate it for last boss only.

And btw, what happened to the policy of not nerfing HM since they need to be hard? The way I read the patch notes even HM is nerfed.

SeaUnicorn

CyberSkooma wrote: »

This is actually a huge slap in the face to groups who have suffered through the infamous progression of vHoF. ZoS continues to nerf old content (While players get stronger) and it's completely diminishing achievements/skins/titles.

I hope all of these vHoF changes get reverted. I thought I was going to put my face through a pane of glass while reading the notes.

Cleared vHOF HM multiple times and I dont see the nerf as an insult at all.
Trial was cancer and gave average player a ptsd such that they never wanted to return to it. And it would take at least 3 hours to complete for an average raiding team.
Infamous triplets prog is a rock-solid mountain preventing a lot of people that I know completing this trial all together. Triplets are in many ways harder then Assembly General in current state.
And the desync with lightning cones does not make it any more exciting.

caperon

slofwnd wrote: »

CyberSkooma wrote: »

This is actually a huge slap in the face to groups who have suffered through the infamous progression of vHoF. ZoS continues to nerf old content (While players get stronger) and it's completely diminishing achievements/skins/titles.

I hope all of these vHoF changes get reverted. I thought I was going to put my face through a pane of glass while reading the notes.

Cleared vHOF HM multiple times and I dont see the nerf as an insult at all.
Trial was cancer and gave average player a ptsd such that they never wanted to return to it. And it would take at least 3 hours to complete for an average raiding team.
Infamous triplets prog is a rock-solid mountain preventing a lot of people that I know completing this trial all together. Triplets are in many ways harder then Assembly General in current state.
And the desync with lightning cones does not make it any more exciting.

Desync with lightning is a game problem, not hof specific. Assembly general always has been easier than the triplets, the pinnacle factotum and if you do the stack tactic, the hunter killer refabricants.

Trial has always been easy if you know and follow the mechanics.