The nord necromancers we saw during the reveal...

Noxavian

Kahnak wrote: »

I'm curious as to why you would define the temporary ranged skeleton as a temporary dot, but a temporary melee skeleton is not also a temporary dot?

Because the ranged skeleton does not have a hit box nor HP. It is, by all accounts, just an illusion entity that makes it look like you summoned something. You see what I mean? It's not actually there. It can't be killed, crowd controlled, AoE'd down. It does not die until the 16 seconds are up.

Where as if they added in a melee warrior, I would hope they would give it actual HP and the ability to die before the summon timer runs out. If the temp summons behaved as actual, you know, temp summons then I wouldn't have an issue with our current summon roster and I'd just be requesting for a melee boi.


Hopefully that makes sense.

Perashim

The only time the Skeleton isn't a DoT is when you're using Empowering Grasp, as you have to actually hit the Skeleton for it to work.

Other than that, yeah it's literally just a DoT.

Araneae6537

I agree with the OP. It seems weird that there isn’t any ability to reanimate corpses, to have a persistent minion until it is killed or dismissed. It would be cool if as a necro you had unique abilities to either gain control of mob-level undead or destroy/release them (I wanted one of my necros to be like Vastarie). There are some cool abilities, but I really dislike the ugly transformations (bone armor and whatever that one ultimate is called).

Faulgor

Noxavian wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

I'm curious as to why you would define the temporary ranged skeleton as a temporary dot, but a temporary melee skeleton is not also a temporary dot?

Because the ranged skeleton does not have a hit box nor HP. It is, by all accounts, just an illusion entity that makes it look like you summoned something. You see what I mean? It's not actually there. It can't be killed, crowd controlled, AoE'd down. It does not die until the 16 seconds are up.

Where as if they added in a melee warrior, I would hope they would give it actual HP and the ability to die before the summon timer runs out. If the temp summons behaved as actual, you know, temp summons then I wouldn't have an issue with our current summon roster and I'd just be requesting for a melee boi.


Hopefully that makes sense.

But being targetable would just make them worse?

I suppose why Necros don't have a melee summon is for similar reasons - it just sucks.
Most of the duration it would probably stumble over pathing issues, or have to run from a dead mob to another, wasting time. This could be circumvented by making it permanent, but that defeats the point of the Necromancer theme and would be too close to Sorcerer's Familiar. So they settled for Blastbones that just explodes once it reaches its target, and made other summons ranged so they are effective for their full duration.

But, Blastbones evidently sucks, too, so I'm not sure what would be the best compromise.
Maybe a semi-permanent summon that constantly needs to be refuled with corpses, like a Werewolf?

Noxavian

Faulgor wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

I'm curious as to why you would define the temporary ranged skeleton as a temporary dot, but a temporary melee skeleton is not also a temporary dot?

Because the ranged skeleton does not have a hit box nor HP. It is, by all accounts, just an illusion entity that makes it look like you summoned something. You see what I mean? It's not actually there. It can't be killed, crowd controlled, AoE'd down. It does not die until the 16 seconds are up.

Where as if they added in a melee warrior, I would hope they would give it actual HP and the ability to die before the summon timer runs out. If the temp summons behaved as actual, you know, temp summons then I wouldn't have an issue with our current summon roster and I'd just be requesting for a melee boi.


Hopefully that makes sense.

But being targetable would just make them worse?

I suppose why Necros don't have a melee summon is for similar reasons - it just sucks.
Most of the duration it would probably stumble over pathing issues, or have to run from a dead mob to another, wasting time. This could be circumvented by making it permanent, but that defeats the point of the Necromancer theme and would be too close to Sorcerer's Familiar. So they settled for Blastbones that just explodes once it reaches its target, and made other summons ranged so they are effective for their full duration.

But, Blastbones evidently sucks, too, so I'm not sure what would be the best compromise.
Maybe a semi-permanent summon that constantly needs to be refuled with corpses, like a Werewolf?

That would actually be a cool summons. One that needs to feed/get energy off of corpses to stay around. I'd certainly take that over blastbones! And being targetable is just a big thing for me because I'm fine if my weak summons die, you know? So I can re summon them, etc.

DreamsUnderStars

HatchetHaro wrote: »

This has to do with balance, among other minor things. This is an MMO with pvp, which means anything and everything you do can affect other players.

Yes, this does undermine the signature Elder Scrolls power fantasy, but multiplayer balance has to take priority.

Fixed it. If Zeni would split the pvp and pve skill mechanics like GW2 does, it wouldn't be an issue.

Faulgor

Noxavian wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

I'm curious as to why you would define the temporary ranged skeleton as a temporary dot, but a temporary melee skeleton is not also a temporary dot?

Because the ranged skeleton does not have a hit box nor HP. It is, by all accounts, just an illusion entity that makes it look like you summoned something. You see what I mean? It's not actually there. It can't be killed, crowd controlled, AoE'd down. It does not die until the 16 seconds are up.

Where as if they added in a melee warrior, I would hope they would give it actual HP and the ability to die before the summon timer runs out. If the temp summons behaved as actual, you know, temp summons then I wouldn't have an issue with our current summon roster and I'd just be requesting for a melee boi.


Hopefully that makes sense.

But being targetable would just make them worse?

I suppose why Necros don't have a melee summon is for similar reasons - it just sucks.
Most of the duration it would probably stumble over pathing issues, or have to run from a dead mob to another, wasting time. This could be circumvented by making it permanent, but that defeats the point of the Necromancer theme and would be too close to Sorcerer's Familiar. So they settled for Blastbones that just explodes once it reaches its target, and made other summons ranged so they are effective for their full duration.

But, Blastbones evidently sucks, too, so I'm not sure what would be the best compromise.
Maybe a semi-permanent summon that constantly needs to be refuled with corpses, like a Werewolf?

That would actually be a cool summons. One that needs to feed/get energy off of corpses to stay around. I'd certainly take that over blastbones! And being targetable is just a big thing for me because I'm fine if my weak summons die, you know? So I can re summon them, etc.

Should probably be a Zombie then that devours the brains of your corpses, getting stronger the longer you can keep it alive. Could be fun.

Integral1900

I would love if one of the blast bones morphs turned it into a two handed wielding spirit, like summoning one of those ghost warriors from the soul cairn. Even if it did way less damage I would use it just for the cool factor. Sure keep it temporary, I just want to summon a swordsman and pretend it’s Sunday afternoon watching the end of Jason and the Argonauts 😇

Kahnak

Noxavian wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

I'm curious as to why you would define the temporary ranged skeleton as a temporary dot, but a temporary melee skeleton is not also a temporary dot?

Because the ranged skeleton does not have a hit box nor HP. It is, by all accounts, just an illusion entity that makes it look like you summoned something. You see what I mean? It's not actually there. It can't be killed, crowd controlled, AoE'd down. It does not die until the 16 seconds are up.

Where as if they added in a melee warrior, I would hope they would give it actual HP and the ability to die before the summon timer runs out. If the temp summons behaved as actual, you know, temp summons then I wouldn't have an issue with our current summon roster and I'd just be requesting for a melee boi.


Hopefully that makes sense.

No, not really, unless your goal is for the summon to be killed in PvP. If that is the case, I would also add that people have had issue with pets in PvP for a long time and targeting yet one more NPC summon in the middle of combat would likely be contentious. In most PvE content, summons are essentially invulnerable anyway, so there isn't much of a difference between an invulnerable pet and what you've described as a temporary DoT. I can understand wanting a melee summon for the aesthetic as a personal preference, but I would also say that while a melee summon might look cool, the pathing for Blastbones is still an issue and getting the damage you want out of a summon that is chasing a mob around the map might end up being more problematic than it is worth. Sorcs have had this issue forever.

Noxavian

Kahnak wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

I'm curious as to why you would define the temporary ranged skeleton as a temporary dot, but a temporary melee skeleton is not also a temporary dot?

Because the ranged skeleton does not have a hit box nor HP. It is, by all accounts, just an illusion entity that makes it look like you summoned something. You see what I mean? It's not actually there. It can't be killed, crowd controlled, AoE'd down. It does not die until the 16 seconds are up.

Where as if they added in a melee warrior, I would hope they would give it actual HP and the ability to die before the summon timer runs out. If the temp summons behaved as actual, you know, temp summons then I wouldn't have an issue with our current summon roster and I'd just be requesting for a melee boi.


Hopefully that makes sense.

No, not really, unless your goal is for the summon to be killed in PvP. If that is the case, I would also add that people have had issue with pets in PvP for a long time and targeting yet one more NPC summon in the middle of combat would likely be contentious. In most PvE content, summons are essentially invulnerable anyway, so there isn't much of a difference between an invulnerable pet and what you've described as a temporary DoT. I can understand wanting a melee summon for the aesthetic as a personal preference, but I would also say that while a melee summon might look cool, the pathing for Blastbones is still an issue and getting the damage you want out of a summon that is chasing a mob around the map might end up being more problematic than it is worth. Sorcs have had this issue forever.

Then why not give the melee summon a leap? Surely that would fix the issue of pathing. I get what you're saying about the pets being invulnerable though. I guess it just sorta breaks my sense of immersion if my pet literally cannot take dmg. I don't care about it being worse in pvp, etc. It's purely for immersion sake. Because really, the way they are now they may as well not even exist? And instead just be a dot? I'd like for my summons to flinch, get hit, etc. Because they're supposed to be an actual skeletal mob.

Kahnak

Noxavian wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

I'm curious as to why you would define the temporary ranged skeleton as a temporary dot, but a temporary melee skeleton is not also a temporary dot?

Because the ranged skeleton does not have a hit box nor HP. It is, by all accounts, just an illusion entity that makes it look like you summoned something. You see what I mean? It's not actually there. It can't be killed, crowd controlled, AoE'd down. It does not die until the 16 seconds are up.

Where as if they added in a melee warrior, I would hope they would give it actual HP and the ability to die before the summon timer runs out. If the temp summons behaved as actual, you know, temp summons then I wouldn't have an issue with our current summon roster and I'd just be requesting for a melee boi.


Hopefully that makes sense.

No, not really, unless your goal is for the summon to be killed in PvP. If that is the case, I would also add that people have had issue with pets in PvP for a long time and targeting yet one more NPC summon in the middle of combat would likely be contentious. In most PvE content, summons are essentially invulnerable anyway, so there isn't much of a difference between an invulnerable pet and what you've described as a temporary DoT. I can understand wanting a melee summon for the aesthetic as a personal preference, but I would also say that while a melee summon might look cool, the pathing for Blastbones is still an issue and getting the damage you want out of a summon that is chasing a mob around the map might end up being more problematic than it is worth. Sorcs have had this issue forever.

Then why not give the melee summon a leap? Surely that would fix the issue of pathing. I get what you're saying about the pets being invulnerable though. I guess it just sorta breaks my sense of immersion if my pet literally cannot take dmg. I don't care about it being worse in pvp, etc. It's purely for immersion sake. Because really, the way they are now they may as well not even exist? And instead just be a dot? I'd like for my summons to flinch, get hit, etc. Because they're supposed to be an actual skeletal mob.

I can see why you might think that would be a solution, but at least one of the Blastbones morphs is already supposed to perform a bit of a leap to engage the enemy quicker and it is still not working as intended.

Wanting to maintain immersion is completely reasonable considering that out of all of the top-tier MMO's available, ESO is arguably the most immersive in terms of story and lore and that's one of the main reasons people enjoy it. I think the issue here is that there are more mechanical considerations that ZoS is prioritizing and also making an attempt to avoid similar issues to their past pet or summon concepts. In fact, I think the primary issue that you have was implemented by ZoS deliberately to avoid said similar issues. Obviously, it wasn't perfect and they seem to have created other problems in the process that they still haven't been able to resolve.

Noxavian

Kahnak wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

I'm curious as to why you would define the temporary ranged skeleton as a temporary dot, but a temporary melee skeleton is not also a temporary dot?

Because the ranged skeleton does not have a hit box nor HP. It is, by all accounts, just an illusion entity that makes it look like you summoned something. You see what I mean? It's not actually there. It can't be killed, crowd controlled, AoE'd down. It does not die until the 16 seconds are up.

Where as if they added in a melee warrior, I would hope they would give it actual HP and the ability to die before the summon timer runs out. If the temp summons behaved as actual, you know, temp summons then I wouldn't have an issue with our current summon roster and I'd just be requesting for a melee boi.


Hopefully that makes sense.

No, not really, unless your goal is for the summon to be killed in PvP. If that is the case, I would also add that people have had issue with pets in PvP for a long time and targeting yet one more NPC summon in the middle of combat would likely be contentious. In most PvE content, summons are essentially invulnerable anyway, so there isn't much of a difference between an invulnerable pet and what you've described as a temporary DoT. I can understand wanting a melee summon for the aesthetic as a personal preference, but I would also say that while a melee summon might look cool, the pathing for Blastbones is still an issue and getting the damage you want out of a summon that is chasing a mob around the map might end up being more problematic than it is worth. Sorcs have had this issue forever.

Then why not give the melee summon a leap? Surely that would fix the issue of pathing. I get what you're saying about the pets being invulnerable though. I guess it just sorta breaks my sense of immersion if my pet literally cannot take dmg. I don't care about it being worse in pvp, etc. It's purely for immersion sake. Because really, the way they are now they may as well not even exist? And instead just be a dot? I'd like for my summons to flinch, get hit, etc. Because they're supposed to be an actual skeletal mob.

I can see why you might think that would be a solution, but at least one of the Blastbones morphs is already supposed to perform a bit of a leap to engage the enemy quicker and it is still not working as intended.

Wanting to maintain immersion is completely reasonable considering that out of all of the top-tier MMO's available, ESO is arguably the most immersive in terms of story and lore and that's one of the main reasons people enjoy it. I think the issue here is that there are more mechanical considerations that ZoS is prioritizing and also making an attempt to avoid similar issues to their past pet or summon concepts. In fact, I think the primary issue that you have was implemented by ZoS deliberately to avoid said similar issues. Obviously, it wasn't perfect and they seem to have created other problems in the process that they still haven't been able to resolve.

I get what you're saying. Supposedly this year they're supposed to be fixing the pet system and overhauling it, so says the fix roadmap at least.

So I'm kinda hoping maybe they'll make adjustments to necro. Nothing major, as mentioned they are so so SO close to getting it, but they just aren't there. Even the class reps are trying super hard to get more summons/an undead theme.