Fossilize & company needs to go

WillhelmBlack

Do you think they should just give us all the same class, skills and armour? How about that? Foam weapons? How about just no CC's whatsoever?

yeyesil

These 2 skills are class defining skills and these skills are The counters for some classes like rolling nightblades and permablocking heal spammers like templars. You should also use RAT, FM or shuffle to get rid of additional soft CC effects. In The end it's just a learn to play isssue. There have already been so many nerfs to these counter skills for specific classes. If you remove them, we will have hard times dealing with thoso endlessly rolling nbs or permablockers.

evoniee

no doubt magdk is the best mag class for 1v1.

fosilize is one of the factor.

so yeah, the overall class is strong, adjusting fosilize not gonna help too much.

Marcus684

Unblockable hard CCs are the only good counter to the roly poly stam builds. Do you really want them to be even more powerful?

Jimmy_The_Fixer

They turned the root on Living Dark into a 60% snare, that felt like a good adjustment to an overtuned ability.

Maybe they could do a pass like that on a few more rooting abilities, root is strong enough that it should be a primary effect rather than a secondary effect.

StrandedMonkey

Bradyfjord wrote: »

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

Bradyfjord wrote: »

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

i think just fossilize needs to be nerfed

dragonknight

ok look pal if you can come up with a list of beautiful CC immunization skills then you can CLEARLY come up with a list of all the skills that will STUN FIRST AND IMMOBILIZE RIGHT AFTER BREAKING THE STUN and then dont forget to tell me which class(es) hint hint have them

If you have appropriate consumables, gear, and skillbars, you can beat any opponent. But you can't have every counter to every skill in the game unless you use a combination of Immovable potion, and some variation of skills from the list I offered.

Why does it matter if there is one skill in the game that does that, or several of them? That isn't the point I'm trying to get across. I'm trying to say that players have the ability to find ways to defend against dragonknights. Hint hint: DK's have weaknesses. Such as poor mobility and short range. It actually is best to stay at range to handle a dk. If you walk into a DK's melee range don't be surprised if you have a hard time getting away from their snares, roots, and chains unless you have prepared appropriately.

Since it seems you aren't actually interested in play/counter play I have to assume you are pretty upset. I'm sorry someone cc'd you and you didn't have anything slotted to counter. Nor did you have immovable potions (mine are Health/Stam/Immovable).

Based on your comment that focuses on one ability in a sea of possible choices, it seems you are the kind of player that isn't prepared, and is always wondering how everyone could outperform the build you found online.

I'm sorry for you. You're given a game with an incredible diversity of tools and you want them all changed until they all perform the same.

P.S. The best counter for anything in pvp has always been to run with friends. If you get cc'd, just let them know and they have your back.

this is a very interesting list man but i dont see any skills similar to fossilize here

edit: failing to deliver a solid answer to my question and calling me "upset" is probably one of the worst responses you could give in defense of a skill that should absolutely be nerfed

nublife01

The issue is that if they change fossilize to a knockdown and slow youre still going to have to roll dodge out of the magdk burst except youre also going to have to cast shuffle or something like that so it would actually be a stronger ability if the root is replaced. The only thing I can think of is if they made it a root and a silence instead of a root and knockdown. Sort of like how incap is a silence (except aa longer duration on fossilize like 5 seconds would make the most sense) instead of a stun. Nerfing fossilize and leap on a dk is like nerfing nightblade cloak. You have to be careful or you're going to destroy the whole class. Though something does need to be done because the ability is very broken in bgs.

Fur_like_snow

Fossilize is fine in a 1v1. It can however be very annoying in Xv1 because the root keeps you in place for an extra second sometimes long enough to get dog piled.

jcm2606

nublife01 wrote: »

The issue is that if they change fossilize to a knockdown and slow youre still going to have to roll dodge out of the magdk burst except youre also going to have to cast shuffle or something like that so it would actually be a stronger ability if the root is replaced. The only thing I can think of is if they made it a root and a silence instead of a root and knockdown. Sort of like how incap is a silence (except aa longer duration on fossilize like 5 seconds would make the most sense) instead of a stun. Nerfing fossilize and leap on a dk is like nerfing nightblade cloak. You have to be careful or you're going to destroy the whole class. Though something does need to be done because the ability is very broken in bgs.

It's called learn to *** play. Get on a DK and learn how the class plays before coming to the forums and whining for more *** to be gutted. You'd find that you can deal with Fossilize a lot better and easier once you know when and why a DK uses it against you, what to expect coming out of it, and how to predict you're going to be shoved into it in the first place.

nublife01

jcm2606 wrote: »

nublife01 wrote: »

The issue is that if they change fossilize to a knockdown and slow youre still going to have to roll dodge out of the magdk burst except youre also going to have to cast shuffle or something like that so it would actually be a stronger ability if the root is replaced. The only thing I can think of is if they made it a root and a silence instead of a root and knockdown. Sort of like how incap is a silence (except aa longer duration on fossilize like 5 seconds would make the most sense) instead of a stun. Nerfing fossilize and leap on a dk is like nerfing nightblade cloak. You have to be careful or you're going to destroy the whole class. Though something does need to be done because the ability is very broken in bgs.

It's called learn to *** play. Get on a DK and learn how the class plays before coming to the forums and whining for more *** to be gutted. You'd find that you can deal with Fossilize a lot better and easier once you know when and why a DK uses it against you, what to expect coming out of it, and how to predict you're going to be shoved into it in the first place.

I'm not qq'ing though you have responded with the most common pleb answer to nerfs I have read. I can kill mag/stam dks easy. It's called immovable pots. Pop one before you start your kill combo on a dk at 2/3 life and gg. Event then I don't really need immovable pots tbh. I think stam/mag restore on heavy armor, troll king, and blackrose dual wield and resto staff sets are the only things that really need nerfs right now. Along with maybe just deleting imperial physique from the game.

I think what people are most qq'ing about with dk is that even if you can predict the spell coming in there is no way of avoiding it or dragon leap. You have to take the cc/stamina loss unless you immovable pot it and when the game is laggy it takes a very long time to get out of these cc's vs others. I mentioned these changes because there has been a lot of qq about these abilities on the forums and zos is most likely going to nerf them so better they nerf them slightly than to the floor.

Bradyfjord

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

edit: failing to deliver a solid answer to my question and calling me "upset" is probably one of the worst responses you could give in defense of a skill that should absolutely be nerfed

My comment doesn't defend Fossilize, a fair and balanced skill that stands on its own. But you did seem upset to me due to having no actual reason for claiming an ability is OP except your refusal to even look for options to solve your problem. It happens to me too sometimes. I get beaten by something I didn't anticipate, but what makes me different from you is I don't complain on forums. I have also offered everyone examples and suggestions of how to counter DK's (whether they use Fossilize or not). That is my approach, to learn and adapt.

If we're talking about 1v1, 1vX, or group play we then have context which I can then offer specific examples for what to do. As Fossilize stands it is balanced by its significant cost, plus the significant cost of other abilities (such as power lash) useful to follow up with. After all, by itself it does no damage at all, except to set up a combo, peel, or to disengage, which is the purpose of cc. So give me some context, and I'll try to help you more specific to your situation.

There are counters to DK's:

• Wings has been nerfed making DK's quite vulnerable to ranged attacks.
• Defile effects can help to negate heals.
• Ranged snares and knockbacks are great to keep DK's from getting close. (magnum shot is awesome)
• Fracture/Breach, combined with lots of Penetration gets past defenses.
• Leeching away resources can also be especially hard on DK's (their class skills are quite expensive).
• Silence effects can cripple any mag class, but all of DK's skills claimed to be OP are magicka (Shields, Fossilize, etc.)

Players should either be prepared to keep their distance, or cc first (first cc often wins). I can't help it if not every build will counter Fossilize, but there are in game counters. And if Fossilize is spammed, diminishing returns/cc immunity kicks in.
Yours and others' posts make it seem like DK's just Fossilize opponents and win every engagement, and that just isn't true.

ESO is balanced such that any given build will not be able to counter every other build. That's actually balance. My word for it is Asymmetrical balance. What I consider Symmetrical balance, like a shooter, where everyone has access to the same arsenal/skillset.

My answer is quite solid from my point of view. I will concede though on the fact that Fossilize is a unique ability.

P.S. Sorry, if I made it seem I was stating you were upset. You're probably not upset, but merely wrong.

P.P.S. I could possibly consider turning Fossilize into a 4 second root or stun (not both). But I'd like to see a 1/2 cost reduction. I don't see how that's going to help people that don't want to use their full toolset (consumables, gear, and skills).

nublife01

Honestly they need to bring old dk wings back. That was definitely one of the coolest abilities ive seen in eso. Sure like nerf fossilize leap whatever just bring wings back.

Bradyfjord

nublife01 wrote: »

Honestly they need to bring old dk wings back. That was definitely one of the coolest abilities ive seen in eso. Sure like nerf fossilize leap whatever just bring wings back.

I am sad to have lost Wings' main use. It was a fun ability that rewarded skillful play on both ends of the engagement.

That said, now they want to nerf more abilities. Not saying DK's are weak, but players should expect a rough engagement walking into range of a DK's main abilities. DK abilities are tuned to be strong, but very expensive. DK's have poor burst, and struggle to sustain magicka/stamina. A DK's class abilities tend to be short ranged in nature, and the class is well known for their poor mobility.

I don't understand why some players come to the forums because they were outplayed a few times.

GRXRG

Bradyfjord wrote: »

nublife01 wrote: »

Honestly they need to bring old dk wings back. That was definitely one of the coolest abilities ive seen in eso. Sure like nerf fossilize leap whatever just bring wings back.

I am sad to have lost Wings' main use. It was a fun ability that rewarded skillful play on both ends of the engagement.

That said, now they want to nerf more abilities. Not saying DK's are weak, but players should expect a rough engagement walking into range of a DK's main abilities. DK abilities are tuned to be strong, but very expensive. DK's have poor burst, and struggle to sustain magicka/stamina. A DK's class abilities tend to be short ranged in nature, and the class is well known for their poor mobility.

I don't understand why some players come to the forums because they were outplayed a few times.

And here another one who thinks this is a dk nerf whine, just stfu.
My complain is about undodgeable, unblockable CCs, fossilize, streak, vamp drain (it is blockable but so buggy), and all the fears.
They are not healthy for the game and you can say anything, they have no real counterplay (just immov potions every 45 seconds, and that's not enough to call it a counterplay).
of course then you have to address those cheesy permadodge and permablock builds.

StShoot

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Fossilize is short range, like most dk skills. Fossilize is expensive, like all dk skills. Fossilize is single target.

I know it sucks to be hit by a hard cc, but there are potions and abilities that completely negate these abilities.

ESO is designed so you can't really have it all. If you build to counter cc (many do) you might lose something in another priority.

As a longtime dk player, I don't always run a fossilize/lash build because it is easily countered. I'm not worried by people I'm better than. And fossilize isn't the best move vs players that are better than me.

Tl;dr Learn alchemy and you can counter almost everything in eso.

May i ask what you run besides a foss/whip build atm ? dk dots hit like a wet noodle O,o


OP, here are some counters that you could use:

Anti CC pots (if the uptime is to low, they are jewelery enchantments to reduce pot cooldown)
Hist sap robes
Investing into more stamina/stamina reg
Maybe you should consider moving blockbash to a seperate key so you can break free faster
If i remember corectly the break free cost is at 4800 and you have to pay that every 6 seconds, so the hard counter would be to get 1600 stam recovery ( as a magica player, as stamina you probably want more reg if you have breakfree problems)

Rake

Have you tried using immovable pots?
marvelous things indeed, making fossilize a dead skill on your opponent bar for a while

iCaliban

Unblockable undogeable stuns are very healthy for the game. People complain about unkillable players then whine about literally the only counter to such builds

MartiniDaniels

Rake wrote: »

Have you tried using immovable pots?
marvelous things indeed, making fossilize a dead skill on your opponent bar for a while

This. Immovability pots immediately put me in stupor, because as DK you are used to guaranteed cc in certain intervals and here it doesn't work... couple more seconds.. damn it still doesn't work... wtf... a few more! doesn't work >< oops, I'm at 50% HP... onslaught... fossilize still doesn't work, i'm dead ><

nublife01

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Rake wrote: »

Have you tried using immovable pots?
marvelous things indeed, making fossilize a dead skill on your opponent bar for a while

This. Immovability pots immediately put me in stupor, because as DK you are used to guaranteed cc in certain intervals and here it doesn't work... couple more seconds.. damn it still doesn't work... wtf... a few more! doesn't work >< oops, I'm at 50% HP... onslaught... fossilize still doesn't work, i'm dead ><

Yea theyre like detect pots for nightblade.

Xvorg

Oh, I've seen this movie a lot of times here at this very same season, it is called

"I'm a lazy player, please, nerf what I don't understand"

Any guy asking for a nerf to foss have no F idea about DK. Foss is a skill that provides a stun and a immo because flame lash requires you to hit a stunned or a rooted guy to get him off balance, so you can use the damn power lash. If you foss your enemy and he breaks free before you hit him with lash, there's 0 chance you could set him off balance to use the proc.

So, if you want to get rid of the root, just give DKs a reliable way to set off balance, or make the proc easier to get. Power lash is very hard to cast (no, you don't have a 33% chance to proc on magica skills, neither you have to fire 5 light attacks), annd the only way it can be done in a reliable way is through foss, otherwise you have to set weird combos, like proccing concussion and setting off balance through Wall of lightning, or through the tactician star (not available on cp)

Nevertheless, the best way to deal with Foss, is l2p. People run detect pots to get NBs down, I don't see why they cannot run immo pots against DKs. There are even Immo + Invis + healing pots (blue entoloma, columbine namira's rot/wormwood)

Bradyfjord

GRXRG wrote: »

My complain is about undodgeable, unblockable CCs, fossilize, streak, vamp drain (it is blockable but so buggy), and all the fears.
They are not healthy for the game and you can say anything, they have no real counterplay (just immov potions every 45 seconds, and that's not enough to call it a counterplay).
of course then you have to address those cheesy permadodge and permablock builds.

That's the point. It is counterplay. You need to stop looking at single abilities and build a strat to counter other players' strats. You have all the tools you need. I don't know why, but you don't like it. You're entitled to be wrong if you want, but there it is.

You want play/counterplay. You have it, not just potions. But sadly, instead of learning to improve you want to nerf everything. No, you're not trying to nerf one class. You're trying to turn pvp into a game where everyone is the same. That's a different kind of game than ESO. There's nothing wrong with liking other games, just go play those instead of changing this into something it isn't meant to be.

And I think having unique abilities in the game are interesting and challenging. I've been outplayed by these things too. I don't just play one class. IMO you're just not paying attention to the advice many players have offered in a myriad of threads on this subject.

Streak:

• If they streak away, you simply run the opposite direction, and make them come to find you (or not).
• If they streak at you, break free (or pot if you can see it coming), and cc/combo the Sorc.

Fossilize:

• Use cc/combo before DK. They have to be in range (7 meters) to use it. Break free if they get you, and then you're immune.

Vamp Drain:

• I think it's buggy because of performance issues. I'm not sure in this case it's the ability, but rather the game's systems. I agree that it is annoying. When this ability comes up I like to remind people of that.

Fears:

• Break free works. Then you have 5 seconds to cc/burst combo, or make some distance.

I think you just aren't trying. Yes, sometimes we win, and sometimes we lose. That's pvp. No one is unbeatable, even people who spam cc all day.

nublife01

The only issue I really see to fossilize and leap for that matter is that they are massively buffed by in game lag. Hopefully the changes they just mentioned that theyre making to reduce the size of the game and such will help with this lag but yea.

GRXRG

Bradyfjord wrote: »

GRXRG wrote: »

My complain is about undodgeable, unblockable CCs, fossilize, streak, vamp drain (it is blockable but so buggy), and all the fears.
They are not healthy for the game and you can say anything, they have no real counterplay (just immov potions every 45 seconds, and that's not enough to call it a counterplay).
of course then you have to address those cheesy permadodge and permablock builds.

That's the point. It is counterplay. You need to stop looking at single abilities and build a strat to counter other players' strats. You have all the tools you need. I don't know why, but you don't like it. You're entitled to be wrong if you want, but there it is.

You want play/counterplay. You have it, not just potions. But sadly, instead of learning to improve you want to nerf everything. No, you're not trying to nerf one class. You're trying to turn pvp into a game where everyone is the same. That's a different kind of game than ESO. There's nothing wrong with liking other games, just go play those instead of changing this into something it isn't meant to be.

And I think having unique abilities in the game are interesting and challenging. I've been outplayed by these things too. I don't just play one class. IMO you're just not paying attention to the advice many players have offered in a myriad of threads on this subject.

Streak:

• If they streak away, you simply run the opposite direction, and make them come to find you (or not).
• If they streak at you, break free (or pot if you can see it coming), and cc/combo the Sorc.

Fossilize:

• Use cc/combo before DK. They have to be in range (7 meters) to use it. Break free if they get you, and then you're immune.

Vamp Drain:

• I think it's buggy because of performance issues. I'm not sure in this case it's the ability, but rather the game's systems. I agree that it is annoying. When this ability comes up I like to remind people of that.

Fears:

• Break free works. Then you have 5 seconds to cc/burst combo, or make some distance.

I think you just aren't trying. Yes, sometimes we win, and sometimes we lose. That's pvp. No one is unbeatable, even people who spam cc all day.

So we should just ignore and accept overperforming skills or skills without counterplay and accept the fact because eso is a different game?
So sorcerer rune cage unblockable undodgeable was a good skill in your opinion? Now it has an obvious animation and if you don't dodge it it's only your fault and you need l2p.
And you say of fossilize, break free if they get you and you are immune. 4800 stamina to break free plus another 4k to dodge roll out of the immob is just game done if you play a magicka class, and few seconds later they pop it again and no way you have already the stamina available to break free again, talking mainly of a no-cp scenario.

yeyesil

GRXRG wrote: »

So we should just ignore and accept overperforming skills or skills without counterplay and accept the fact because eso is a different game?
So sorcerer rune cage unblockable undodgeable was a good skill in your opinion? Now it has an obvious animation and if you don't dodge it it's only your fault and you need l2p.
And you say of fossilize, break free if they get you and you are immune. 4800 stamina to break free plus another 4k to dodge roll out of the immob is just game done if you play a magicka class, and few seconds later they pop it again and no way you have already the stamina available to break free again, talking mainly of a no-cp scenario.

Use race against time or mist form to cleanse snares and roots. Damn i use forward momentum over rally to have snare and immo immunity and sacrifice rally heal in my stam characters. Then you can do the same and use RAT and have immunity, expedition and critical damage bonus. All in all you wont have to spend stamina for dodge.

Bradyfjord

GRXRG wrote: »

And you say of fossilize, break free if they get you and you are immune. 4800 stamina to break free plus another 4k to dodge roll out of the immob is just game done if you play a magicka class, and few seconds later they pop it again and no way you have already the stamina available to break free again, talking mainly of a no-cp scenario.

Okay. I have to say, I do not play in No CP. It's obviously different there.
I consider no CP like playing with only part of the game active, and the game is probably not balanced with no CP in mind.

Sounds like you might need buffs. Something like... CP provides.
That said. The emphasis of NoCP moves to skills, gear sets, and consumables. Please work with what you have. There are indeed tools that even you admit are in game. If you have chosen to play in No CP then please accept the confines of that rule set.

coletas

cc's are great and fun to play with and against... but ... without lag. With the normal lag is horrible... a single vampire drain or a fear, with full stamina, gives you time to prepare a coffee while your pj is drooling the floor. That is not fun. But without lag I think duels are much more fun

Bradyfjord

Respectful shoutout to everyone that has participated in this discussion.

I'm going to bow out due to the fact that changes are coming soon. I want to see how these work, and adjust accordingly.

Happy trails. Even if you don't agree with me.