Fossilize & company needs to go

GRXRG

Reason is simple, skills like Fossilize, Streak, Vampire drain, Mass hysteria and all the unblockable undodgeable CCs are unhealthy for the game.
It's BS that especially in a no-cp scenario you waste like 8k stamina to get rid of fossilize stun plus immob.
And it's not a dang L2P issue because there is no counterplay to that button pressed by your opponent, toppling charge or javelin, even tho it's crazy good and strong I can clearly see the animations and block them and counter pressure my opponents. Things you cannot do against those lame braindead CCs spammed off-cooldown.
And don't start the argument, magdk is very weak he needs it (when in small group play is one of the top tier classes, just bwcause is bad at 1vX it doesn't mean it sucks everywhere), magsorc streak is class identity yada yada yada.
Make fossilize cost 10k magicka same as my 10k stamina i need to waste to get rid of it, or make the animation obvious and blockable, same for streak and all the other stupid CCs that have no counterplay whatsoever.
Eso is famous for being very player skill oriented, if a player is better than you, he can outplay and destroy you and he is rewarded by that.
Those types of CCs and even free proc damage sets are the complete opposite. You can die very easily to a worse player than you just because his zaan procced at the right moment and maybe visual bugging or because he used an unblockable and undodgeable CC.

I hope I am not the one who thinks this about those skills, which maybe I didn't even mentioned all, and I hope to see some good changes this upcoming patch.

kyle.wilson

If you watch the better players, they don't seem to struggle unless massively outnumbered.
I find jab spamming proctards to be far more annoying than CC skills.

Mirage131

It's 100% a l2p issue. Heavy attack more or dodge roll less

TheBonesXXX

They're fine. No CP needs to go.

Bradyfjord

Fossilize is short range, like most dk skills. Fossilize is expensive, like all dk skills. Fossilize is single target.

I know it sucks to be hit by a hard cc, but there are potions and abilities that completely negate these abilities.

ESO is designed so you can't really have it all. If you build to counter cc (many do) you might lose something in another priority.

As a longtime dk player, I don't always run a fossilize/lash build because it is easily countered. I'm not worried by people I'm better than. And fossilize isn't the best move vs players that are better than me.

Tl;dr Learn alchemy and you can counter almost everything in eso.

ecru

Fossilize just got a huge cost increase, like 40%. It's basically unusable in nocp/BGs for a stamdk not specifically stacking mag recovery if they also want to use fragmented and keep armor up, and it's still very cost prohibitive in cp pvp. I kind of agree about streak though because it's a gap closer/escape, hard unblockable cc, and it's cheaper than Fossilize. Seems a bit much.

ZeroAlmanic

This is a l2p issue in all seriousness especially people complaining about fossilize it is very easy to counter most good Magdks especially in 1v1s know the step in step out method by Stepping into cc radius to stun whip whip then back out of the radius to prevent your opponent from counter stunning you Its 100% a l2p issue brother as much as I hate to say it.

nublife01

GRXRG wrote: »

Reason is simple, skills like Fossilize, Streak, Vampire drain, Mass hysteria and all the unblockable undodgeable CCs are unhealthy for the game.
It's BS that especially in a no-cp scenario you waste like 8k stamina to get rid of fossilize stun plus immob.
And it's not a dang L2P issue because there is no counterplay to that button pressed by your opponent, toppling charge or javelin, even tho it's crazy good and strong I can clearly see the animations and block them and counter pressure my opponents. Things you cannot do against those lame braindead CCs spammed off-cooldown.
And don't start the argument, magdk is very weak he needs it (when in small group play is one of the top tier classes, just bwcause is bad at 1vX it doesn't mean it sucks everywhere), magsorc streak is class identity yada yada yada.
Make fossilize cost 10k magicka same as my 10k stamina i need to waste to get rid of it, or make the animation obvious and blockable, same for streak and all the other stupid CCs that have no counterplay whatsoever.
Eso is famous for being very player skill oriented, if a player is better than you, he can outplay and destroy you and he is rewarded by that.
Those types of CCs and even free proc damage sets are the complete opposite. You can die very easily to a worse player than you just because his zaan procced at the right moment and maybe visual bugging or because he used an unblockable and undodgeable CC.

I hope I am not the one who thinks this about those skills, which maybe I didn't even mentioned all, and I hope to see some good changes this upcoming patch.

YES THIS PLEASE ZOS GODS. BUFF DERP DRAGON WINGS AND GET RID OF FOSSILIZE. THAT OR GIVE ME A 16 SECOND IMMOVABLE POT.

Moonsorrow

GRXRG wrote: »

Reason is simple, skills like Fossilize, Streak, Vampire drain, Mass hysteria and all the unblockable undodgeable CCs are unhealthy for the game.

You know what really is unhealthy for the game? Asking to change things on it that are issues only to those who do not bother to build with enough resources to handle combat properly, or not bothering to learn even.

Personally i do not know any people that have troubles with Stuns, in fact.. Stuns are very much needed to get kill combos. Or are you one of those who want to embrace the tank meta even more?

How can this be so hard concept to understand? Seriously asking.

Firebrand10

This is purely a l2p issue. Stop asking for nerfs and learn how to play the game. I swear 90% of nerf threads are players that don't take the time to learn and counter whatever is killing them.

MajBludd

What class are you playing, OP?

Vamp drain, break free and interrupt them.
If its multiple ppl, I can see where it might be more challenging, but with multiple ppl it is a bigger challenge regardless If they are using vamp drain.

Fossilize doesnt need nerfed, it's just learning how to avoid it. Which can be difficult, but it can be done.

What other cc would you give a nb if you take away the only one they have?

I think what ppl need to ask is, "how do I deal with these skills?", instead of calling for nerfs.
That's why dueling is fun and a good way to learn. Win or lose

ChunkyCat

MajBludd wrote: »

Fossilize doesnt need nerfed, it's just learning how to avoid it. Which can be difficult, but it can be done.

Ok Evil Wizard, please explain how to avoid a skill that cannot be dodged when your cc immunity is down.

MajBludd

@ChunkyCat range them, that's the only way I've seen it can be done if your immunity is down. Which poses a problem if you have no way to range attack them. Then that's more of a build issue, imo.

As I stated, it's difficult but can be done. Of course if you are in melee range you are gonna have to eat what they throw at you until you can gain immunity or die.

Me, I die on my warden because I'm a vamp and fire bad. But that's more due to my build choice.

Ozazz

do not categorize fossilize with streak my man!

jcm2606

Seriously hate to see you play a game where CC is an actually deadly thing, where the counter to it is just as expensive as the CC itself.

jcm2606

ChunkyCat wrote: »

MajBludd wrote: »

Fossilize doesnt need nerfed, it's just learning how to avoid it. Which can be difficult, but it can be done.

Ok Evil Wizard, please explain how to avoid a skill that cannot be dodged when your cc immunity is down.

Know when it's coming, so that you're prepared to eat the following damage, and immediately start blocking once you break, since chances are the DK has set up their combo against you, and used their Fossilize to either set the rest of their combo up, or open you up for their combo. Vigor/Regen, break free, block, shut down the following whip or leap, heal through the rest of the damage. Not hard, once you know how a DK plays.

Destyran

After you break it the immobilise is removed after they do a set amount of damage to you it’s a L2P issue

StrandedMonkey

i think just fossilize needs to be nerfed

Bradyfjord

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

i think just fossilize needs to be nerfed

You can personally make it so that, while not on cooldown, you can negate cc by choosing some of the following skills:

Forward Momentum: (2h skill/Stam) Grants immunity/removes immobilization/snare
Elusive Mist: (Vamp/Mag) Grants immunity to disabling/Immobilizing. Also Maj. Expedition.
Shuffle: (Med Armor/Stam) Grants immunity/removes immobilization/snare.
Immovable: (Heavy Armor/Stam) Grants immunity to knock back/immobilization. But reduces speed.
Purge: (Support/Mag): remove negative effects from whole group.
Protective Plate (DK/Mag): Immune to snares/immobilization.
Expunge (Necro/Mag) Remove negative effects from caster.
Phantasmal Escape (NB/Mag) Remove snares/immobilization.
Ball Lightning (Sorc/Mag) Grants immunity to snare/immobilization. And is a teleport. And absorbs projectiles.
Cleansing Ritual (Temp/Mag) Removes 2 negative effects from caster. Synergy removes all effects from ally.
Icy Aura (Warden Passive) Reduces Snares' effects by 15% on wardens.

Also: Immovable Potions can make one immune to snares/stuns/knock back. For my main the tooltip is 10.1 seconds.

The way I see it there are many available skills and potions that can help your build. Not everything will be good for your personal playstyle, but it is available to be slotted if cc is giving you trouble.

If you forgo these abilities, one has to assume you are hoping your stamina doesn't run out before you can defeat the opponents. In the end, this game's pvp seems all about using resources wisely (stam/mag/health) while trying to deplete the opponents' resources.

GRXRG

Destyran wrote: »

After you break it the immobilise is removed after they do a set amount of damage to you it’s a L2P issue

After you break it you need a snare remove or dodge roll to get rid of the immob, and as i said in no-cp is like 8k stamina invested to get rid of a single skill, and then what? Even block as someone stated so my stamina is completely fully drained?
There is a reason why magdk is the best duelist in the game still and one of the strongest classes to have in a group.
If you play bgs and get it by a fossilize 90% of the times you are dead within seconds.
If someone cast meteor, i can be a noob and get stunned or ACTUALLY HOLD BLOCK and counter it.
That's the meaning of L2P.
There is no L2P into skills which cannot be avoided, and staying at range is just BS.

daim

On topics like these and after reading the first two phrases my first thought is always: Removing PVP entirely is the only solution to stop nerfs happening.

ThePhantomThorn

I think hard ccs are good, but. having an immobilise is a little much. To explain, fear has just a cc. Fossilise is a cc with a smaller cc. Add a snare and that’s fine, but having to burn 8k stam every 8 secs is a lot.
Either give ccs like fear extra effects like a snare or mag drain or whatever, or take of additional effects on ccs like vamp drain, fossilise and streak.

Bradyfjord

GRXRG wrote: »

There is no L2P into skills which cannot be avoided, and staying at range is just BS.

It is completely a L2P issue. If you act faster with your own cc, you can let loose your own combo. Instead, you complain.

You can stay at range by using cc to make space (Magnum shot is best for that imo). Unless they counter with immovable potions or some of the abilities I mentioned in one of the earlier posts.

If it is lag, then it is more of a ZOS issue. I now appreciate how lag free cyrodil was early in the life of the game (when the playerbase was trying out the leveling campaign). I assume at this point that lag spikes are never going away, and move on when they happen.

Edit: Wanted to add this to my existing post rather than make a new post.

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

I think hard ccs are good, but. having an immobilise is a little much. To explain, fear has just a cc. Fossilise is a cc with a smaller cc. Add a snare and that’s fine, but having to burn 8k stam every 8 secs is a lot.
Either give ccs like fear extra effects like a snare or mag drain or whatever, or take of additional effects on ccs like vamp drain, fossilise and streak.

I think what you want to addrest @ThePhantomThorn is how the combat systems handle cc/snares, the counters we have, and their costs. I hope they find a way to do this because I think some skills are too expensive, and some not worth it to me (some cc, some counters).

Break free I feel is just a bit too expensive, for example.

I don't feel like the skills themselves need to change, but how zos handles cc could/should be looked at. I hope in their efforts to standardize everything they find a way to do so without nerfing pvp in the process.

JobooAGS

Bradyfjord wrote: »

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

i think just fossilize needs to be nerfed

You can personally make it so that, while not on cooldown, you can negate cc by choosing some of the following skills:

Forward Momentum: (2h skill/Stam) Grants immunity/removes immobilization/snare
Elusive Mist: (Vamp/Mag) Grants immunity to disabling/Immobilizing. Also Maj. Expedition.
Shuffle: (Med Armor/Stam) Grants immunity/removes immobilization/snare.
Immovable: (Heavy Armor/Stam) Grants immunity to knock back/immobilization. But reduces speed.
Purge: (Support/Mag): remove negative effects from whole group.
Protective Plate (DK/Mag): Immune to snares/immobilization.
Expunge (Necro/Mag) Remove negative effects from caster.
Phantasmal Escape (NB/Mag) Remove snares/immobilization.
Ball Lightning (Sorc/Mag) Grants immunity to snare/immobilization. And is a teleport. And absorbs projectiles.
Cleansing Ritual (Temp/Mag) Removes 2 negative effects from caster. Synergy removes all effects from ally.
Icy Aura (Warden Passive) Reduces Snares' effects by 15% on wardens.

Also: Immovable Potions can make one immune to snares/stuns/knock back. For my main the tooltip is 10.1 seconds.

The way I see it there are many available skills and potions that can help your build. Not everything will be good for your personal playstyle, but it is available to be slotted if cc is giving you trouble.

If you forgo these abilities, one has to assume you are hoping your stamina doesn't run out before you can defeat the opponents. In the end, this game's pvp seems all about using resources wisely (stam/mag/health) while trying to deplete the opponents' resources.

You do realize that snares & immobilizations and knockbacks, fear & stuns (CC) are different? Forward momentum, RAT, Wings, BoL, Shuffle, and Phantasm escape all work against snares and immobilizations but do NOTHING against CC. However, it is a really good idea to have one of these slotted.

Purge, Cleansing ritual, Netch, and Expunge just remove effects. They DON’T GRANT IMMUNITY to snares and immobilizations and do NOTHING against being CCed. The only exception is the netch and it is only by chance that the 1 negative effect it removes is the CC and you get CCed during a 5th second it is up. Meaning you can cast one of these abilities, maybe get rid of the snare/ immobilization, and get it reapplied next GCD, resulting in nothing more than wasted resources and therefore a happy opponent. On the other hand, if your class has one of these, it is a great idea to slot it (alliance war purge being the exception unless in a ball group, it is insanely expensive outside of those)


Warden Icy aura, like the snare reduction portion of Redguard martial training, is borderline useless, even when combined with each other. It turns a 40% snare into a 34% snare, which isn’t really noticeable. And when you go to high value snares like permafrost at a 70% snare, you are only looking at a reduction that brings you to a 59.5% snare... which means you are still moving like a snail and are much better off just using one of the above snare immunity skills.

Immovable and immovable potions/ poisons, on the other hand DO work against CCs but do NOTHING against snares and immobilizations. Problem is that potions and poisons have a cooldown and having 35 seconds of downtime on a potion and usually 8 seconds or so from a poison (assuming they proc on cooldown) is a wide window for you to get affected by CC but still remains worth it for use. If your build can run with immovable potions/poisons, it very well should.

Bradyfjord

So you're saying that we need better cc resisting abilities. It might be interesting to give the impenetrable or sturdy trait something to help with that.

Ragnarock41

Ozazz wrote: »

do not categorize fossilize with streak my man!

I agree, makes fossilize look very overpowered.

StrandedMonkey

Bradyfjord wrote: »

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

i think just fossilize needs to be nerfed

dragonknight

ok look pal if you can come up with a list of beautiful CC immunization skills then you can CLEARLY come up with a list of all the skills that will STUN FIRST AND IMMOBILIZE RIGHT AFTER BREAKING THE STUN and then dont forget to tell me which class(es) hint hint have them

Bradyfjord

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

Bradyfjord wrote: »

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

i think just fossilize needs to be nerfed

dragonknight

ok look pal if you can come up with a list of beautiful CC immunization skills then you can CLEARLY come up with a list of all the skills that will STUN FIRST AND IMMOBILIZE RIGHT AFTER BREAKING THE STUN and then dont forget to tell me which class(es) hint hint have them

If you have appropriate consumables, gear, and skillbars, you can beat any opponent. But you can't have every counter to every skill in the game unless you use a combination of Immovable potion, and some variation of skills from the list I offered.

Why does it matter if there is one skill in the game that does that, or several of them? That isn't the point I'm trying to get across. I'm trying to say that players have the ability to find ways to defend against dragonknights. Hint hint: DK's have weaknesses. Such as poor mobility and short range. It actually is best to stay at range to handle a dk. If you walk into a DK's melee range don't be surprised if you have a hard time getting away from their snares, roots, and chains unless you have prepared appropriately.

Since it seems you aren't actually interested in play/counter play I have to assume you are pretty upset. I'm sorry someone cc'd you and you didn't have anything slotted to counter. Nor did you have immovable potions (mine are Health/Stam/Immovable).

Based on your comment that focuses on one ability in a sea of possible choices, it seems you are the kind of player that isn't prepared, and is always wondering how everyone could outperform the build you found online.

I'm sorry for you. You're given a game with an incredible diversity of tools and you want them all changed until they all perform the same.

P.S. The best counter for anything in pvp has always been to run with friends. If you get cc'd, just let them know and they have your back.

WoppaBoem

I agree, it needs to go, unblockable, undodgeable CC should not exist.

sly007

GRXRG wrote: »

Reason is simple, skills like Fossilize, Streak, Vampire drain, Mass hysteria and all the unblockable undodgeable CCs are unhealthy for the game.
It's BS that especially in a no-cp scenario you waste like 8k stamina to get rid of fossilize stun plus immob.
And it's not a dang L2P issue because there is no counterplay to that button pressed by your opponent, toppling charge or javelin, even tho it's crazy good and strong I can clearly see the animations and block them and counter pressure my opponents. Things you cannot do against those lame braindead CCs spammed off-cooldown.
And don't start the argument, magdk is very weak he needs it (when in small group play is one of the top tier classes, just bwcause is bad at 1vX it doesn't mean it sucks everywhere), magsorc streak is class identity yada yada yada.
Make fossilize cost 10k magicka same as my 10k stamina i need to waste to get rid of it, or make the animation obvious and blockable, same for streak and all the other stupid CCs that have no counterplay whatsoever.
Eso is famous for being very player skill oriented, if a player is better than you, he can outplay and destroy you and he is rewarded by that.
Those types of CCs and even free proc damage sets are the complete opposite. You can die very easily to a worse player than you just because his zaan procced at the right moment and maybe visual bugging or because he used an unblockable and undodgeable CC.

I hope I am not the one who thinks this about those skills, which maybe I didn't even mentioned all, and I hope to see some good changes this upcoming patch.

Go play a magicka dragon knight first, get good, understand the class, fight against other good players of different classes in cyrodiil, bg, and duels, then complain about how having fossilize makes you OP. If not, everything you say is irrelevant. It's like how men makes rules for a woman body. It's all talk and theory and zero perspective.

kaithuzar

CC’s like these add complexity to the game mechanics & thereby are healthy imo.

If we didn’t have them the combat would be too stale & no way to kill many more builds; we have enough unkillable builds in game without creating more by nerfing this.

If anything is changed they need to give every class one of these skills.