Molten Arnament/Igneous Weapon discussion

relentless_turnip

Hello!

I was wondering everyone's opinion on this skill?

I think it's a bit crap being honest...
It's nice to have a source of major sorcery/brutality in my class kit but not for 4k

It does also give minor brutality through the mountains blessing passive.

If we compare this to degeneration which gives major sorcery and a decent DOT for 2k and anyone can use it.
Even if we look at Rally which is a heal and major brutality.

I would like to see a reduction in cost and improved utility.

I appreciate there are heavy attack builds out there, but maybe if igneous offered a HOT or something?
1.5k every 2 secs would be reasonable I think, with a maybe a 3k cost?

I would love to hear thoughts... any thoughts.... bloody hell I'm bored!

MerguezMan

- It synergizes very well with restoration staves on heavy attacks.

- It's great for hybrid builds.

- Most people seem to ignore the fact it's a group buff. If you stand next to a DK using it, you do get Major brutality and sorcery, without the need for skill or potions (so you can slot something a bit more useful than Rally or Degeneration).

The cost is indeed a bit high, especially if you compare it to Warden's netch (that is... free, and purges every 5s, and gives back resources, and grants major buff... did I forgot something ?).

Areloth

Agree, don't see anyone using this ability.
Nearly all skill of earthen heart are garbage (beside fossilize).

relentless_turnip

MerguezMan wrote: »

- It synergizes very well with restoration staves on heavy attacks.

- It's great for hybrid builds.

- Most people seem to ignore the fact it's a group buff. If you stand next to a DK using it, you do get Major brutality and sorcery, without the need for skill or potions (so you can slot something a bit more useful than Rally or Degeneration).

The cost is indeed a bit high, especially if you compare it to Warden's netch (that is... free, and purges every 5s, and gives back resources, and grants major buff... did I forgot something ?).

All good points and i understand its merits the cost alone makes me go to pots or degeneration.

Really good point about netch... really highlights the imbalance

relentless_turnip

Areloth wrote: »

Agree, don't see anyone using this ability.
Nearly all skill of earthen heart are garbage (beside fossilize).

Totally agree...

I would slot Ash cloud if it didn't cost over 5k to use or i would pay the 5k if it would follow you as an aura or something.

you might as well cast structured entropy on 2 enemies to get the same effect with a DOT for a fraction of the cost.

Hotdog_23

Get rid of the group buff part (self-buff only) and make it 2k cheaper. Of course, make it only last 20-24 seconds. Change the secondary benefit from heavy attack damage to something like major Expedition for 4 seconds, minor heroism for duration, purge like ability for 2 effects, minor armor buff or some form regen mechanic for highest offensive stat like 10%, or some type of execute where you do 5-10 extra damage with a target under 25% or empower for duration. Just spit balling different ideas.

jcm2606

Really needs to have the group component removed from either one or both morphs, drop the cost significantly, remove the duration increase on Igneous, put a proper secondary effect on it.

relentless_turnip

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Get rid of the group buff part (self-buff only) and make it 2k cheaper. Of course, make it only last 20-24 seconds. Change the secondary benefit from heavy attack damage to something like major Expedition for 4 seconds, minor heroism for duration, purge like ability for 2 effects, minor armor buff or some form regen mechanic for highest offensive stat like 10%, or some type of execute where you do 5-10 extra damage with a target under 25% or empower for duration. Just spit balling different ideas.

All good idea's i'm not a fan of major expedition(maybe on wings) as you can get that RAT if it is important to you. I love the other idea's though, they synergise very well or fill a gap in the class.

Iskiab

Areloth wrote: »

Agree, don't see anyone using this ability.
Nearly all skill of earthen heart are garbage (beside fossilize).

It’s because people tend to share solo or BG builds, no one shares group play builds. Earthen heart skills would be used more, but they’re expensive.

Ragnarock41

The latest update was an attempt but it failed to make this ability worth using over alternatives. Both morphs are not only ridicilously expensive but also have no extra benefits over alternatives. Heavy attack dps is a big joke.

relentless_turnip

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

The latest update was an attempt but it failed to make this ability worth using over alternatives. Both morphs are not only ridicilously expensive but also have no extra benefits over alternatives. Heavy attack dps is a big joke.

I suppose it's handy for hybrids, but is it? as 90% probably wear pelinials and as such only need major brutality...
Hopefully they have a look at it this time round.

Ragnarock41

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

The latest update was an attempt but it failed to make this ability worth using over alternatives. Both morphs are not only ridicilously expensive but also have no extra benefits over alternatives. Heavy attack dps is a big joke.

I suppose it's handy for hybrids, but is it? as 90% probably wear pelinials and as such only need major brutality...
Hopefully they have a look at it this time round.

If its going to be a lackluster ability it should have a small and unsignificant cost. About 2k magicka for molten and 3k for igneous sounds reasonable. Not friggen 4350.

Sanguinor2

Pretty much useless ability. Only time I use it is if I feel like trolling around with a full heavy attack build on pts.

relentless_turnip

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Pretty much useless ability. Only time I use it is if I feel like trolling around with a full heavy attack build on pts.

I think i once saw Kevduit make a heavy attack DK build, it looked boring as ***...

Zer0_CooL

I prefere it due to the longer uptime (im lazy) and the fact that i don't need an enemy to activate it.

jcm2606

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

I prefere it due to the longer uptime (im lazy) and the fact that i don't need an enemy to activate it.

Pretty much this for me. Given the lag caused by both the game and my connection (Australia's internet has been suffering from the fires, and they're doing work for moving our town over to fiber, so that's also causing instabilities), the very few times I've played this patch has been with Igneous, as I just find it more reliable than Degen, despite Degen's secondary and tertiary effects.

Igneous definitely needs to be updated, though, because the moment I can use Degen reliably, I'm switching back.

relentless_turnip

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

I prefere it due to the longer uptime (im lazy) and the fact that i don't need an enemy to activate it.

I also like that... I can't justify the 4.3k cost though. I notice the difference in my sustain when I drop it 😂

If it had some sort of utility as well I could perhaps justify not using degen or pots.

relentless_turnip

jcm2606 wrote: »

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

I prefere it due to the longer uptime (im lazy) and the fact that i don't need an enemy to activate it.

Pretty much this for me. Given the lag caused by both the game and my connection (Australia's internet has been suffering from the fires, and they're doing work for moving our town over to fiber, so that's also causing instabilities), the very few times I've played this patch has been with Igneous, as I just find it more reliable than Degen, despite Degen's secondary and tertiary effects.

Igneous definitely needs to be updated, though, because the moment I can use Degen reliably, I'm switching back.

Yeah you guys have had it rough for sure. I hear connection to the servers is terrible in Australia as well? Hopefully fibre will help when it's available👍

It's a shame you have to make a skill choice based on reliability too...
Which server do you play on?

jcm2606

relentless_turnip wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

I prefere it due to the longer uptime (im lazy) and the fact that i don't need an enemy to activate it.

Pretty much this for me. Given the lag caused by both the game and my connection (Australia's internet has been suffering from the fires, and they're doing work for moving our town over to fiber, so that's also causing instabilities), the very few times I've played this patch has been with Igneous, as I just find it more reliable than Degen, despite Degen's secondary and tertiary effects.

Igneous definitely needs to be updated, though, because the moment I can use Degen reliably, I'm switching back.

Yeah you guys have had it rough for sure. I hear connection to the servers is terrible in Australia as well? Hopefully fibre will help when it's available👍

It's a shame you have to make a skill choice based on reliability too...
Which server do you play on?

PC NA. Ping usually hovers around 250-300, with no micro-spiking that causes ping to spike so quickly the ping counter doesn't catch it. Since the fires, however, ping still sits around 250-300 most of the time, but it feels as if there's a ton of micro-spiking, making combat extremely unreliable.

Best case scenario, a skill might randomly fail to fire, or might take a second to realise it was meant to fire. Worst case scenario, skills fail to fire outright, targeting goes all wonky making it impossible to land anything on a moving target, I'll take damage from skills I never even saw, or I'll even have some actions or skills fire on their own without me touching the button (had this happen with an Engulfing, I went to hit Coag for a quick heal, Engulfing fired, grabbed footage, UI says I hit Coag, yet server thinks I hit Engulfing, and Coag never fired). Micro-spiking can cause the game to do very weird things.

Fiber won't really help much unfrtunately, only really helps stability, and that's assuming it's even closer to our end, since that's all that's being upgraded. Ping is always going to remain relatively high just due to physics (lowest realistic ping we could reach is around 180-200 or thereabouts), and will always be a bit higher due to some things specific to ESO, such as the questionable DDoS protection and horrible server performance.

Xvorg

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Pretty much useless ability. Only time I use it is if I feel like trolling around with a full heavy attack build on pts.

I think i once saw Kevduit make a heavy attack DK build, it looked boring as ***...

There are options, I used one with Knights slayer and torug's some time ago, before oblivion glyph was changed into that crap it is now. It killed most enemy's quite fast, except those ubertanks and healbots. And no, it wasn't boring since it required a lot of awareness (you had to quite fast to swap to resto staff and put healing ward when health was low).

The nerfs to oblivion dmg and healing ward destroyed it. Now I see some guys trying something similar in Cyro, but it's just meme of what it was.

relentless_turnip

You must really love ESO to keep playing through this😂 is it all online games or just this one?

jcm2606

relentless_turnip wrote: »

You must really love ESO to keep playing through this😂 is it all online games or just this one?

All online games with US servers have at least 180-200 ping. Welcome to Australia, lol.

Somewhere

Providing major sorcery and major brutality aren't quite as valuable as they look on paper. These buffs are basically required for a complete build, and most everyone accounts for them. The buffs are so easy to get too, so even if your party knows you're providing the buffs, what do they realistically change to make a difference? Different potion or a slightly better skill. If anything the skill should provide another minor buff to the whole party, one that isnt so easily obtained. As it is, the skill is being overvalued for giving a lot of people an important but ultimately redundant buff.

relentless_turnip

Xvorg wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Pretty much useless ability. Only time I use it is if I feel like trolling around with a full heavy attack build on pts.

I think i once saw Kevduit make a heavy attack DK build, it looked boring as ***...

There are options, I used one with Knights slayer and torug's some time ago, before oblivion glyph was changed into that crap it is now. It killed most enemy's quite fast, except those ubertanks and healbots. And no, it wasn't boring since it required a lot of awareness (you had to quite fast to swap to resto staff and put healing ward when health was low).

The nerfs to oblivion dmg and healing ward destroyed it. Now I see some guys trying something similar in Cyro, but it's just meme of what it was.

That's a shame mate, I only started playing a year a go. The build variety seems to have taken quite a nose dive since launch from what I hear...

relentless_turnip

Somewhere wrote: »

Providing major sorcery and major brutality aren't quite as valuable as they look on paper. These buffs are basically required for a complete build, and most everyone accounts for them. The buffs are so easy to get too, so even if your party knows you're providing the buffs, what do they realistically change to make a difference? Different potion or a slightly better skill. If anything the skill should provide another minor buff to the whole party, one that isnt so easily obtained. As it is, the skill is being overvalued for giving a lot of people an important but ultimately redundant buff.

Well the caster gets minor brutality for their trouble, but when it costs 4.3k magicka. I can't see many Stan players slotting it... And my magdk certainly isn't interested 😂

You are spot on there, no one is going to stop slotting a source of major sorcery/brutality on the chance they are in versinity of a DK

Xvorg

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Pretty much useless ability. Only time I use it is if I feel like trolling around with a full heavy attack build on pts.

I think i once saw Kevduit make a heavy attack DK build, it looked boring as ***...

There are options, I used one with Knights slayer and torug's some time ago, before oblivion glyph was changed into that crap it is now. It killed most enemy's quite fast, except those ubertanks and healbots. And no, it wasn't boring since it required a lot of awareness (you had to quite fast to swap to resto staff and put healing ward when health was low).

The nerfs to oblivion dmg and healing ward destroyed it. Now I see some guys trying something similar in Cyro, but it's just meme of what it was.

That's a shame mate, I only started playing a year a go. The build variety seems to have taken quite a nose dive since launch from what I hear...

yup.

At launch there were few options too, but during 1.3 to 1.5 it was interesting. 1.6 made some changes, but there were a lot of options to play. Everything was somehow viable and competitive until Morrowind. After Morrowind we started slowly to crave into the current meta.

What's sad is that during 1.6 we believed the game was at its lowest spot and that it just only needed to improve... so we did everything we shouldn't have done: asking for nerfs. Now we highly regret that stupid path we took.

Xvorg

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Somewhere wrote: »

Providing major sorcery and major brutality aren't quite as valuable as they look on paper. These buffs are basically required for a complete build, and most everyone accounts for them. The buffs are so easy to get too, so even if your party knows you're providing the buffs, what do they realistically change to make a difference? Different potion or a slightly better skill. If anything the skill should provide another minor buff to the whole party, one that isnt so easily obtained. As it is, the skill is being overvalued for giving a lot of people an important but ultimately redundant buff.

Well the caster gets minor brutality for their trouble, but when it costs 4.3k magicka. I can't see many Stan players slotting it... And my magdk certainly isn't interested 😂

You are spot on there, no one is going to stop slotting a source of major sorcery/brutality on the chance they are in versinity of a DK

Actually that was one of the wrong decisions. Molten weapons have been changed so many times during the las 5 years it barely resembles what was at launch. It went from extra flame dmg on weapon skills, to an execute on basic attacks/extra dmg on heavy attacks, to major sorc and major brut...

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Molten_Weapons

Sanguinor2

What is really strange About molten weapons is that I rarely if ever see it used by People who know what they are doing for years and the only buff it got was giving Major brut/sorc to more People.
I obviously dont have the statistics but I´d assume that molten weapons is among the least used abilities for years and it still didnt get any changes.

relentless_turnip

Xvorg wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Pretty much useless ability. Only time I use it is if I feel like trolling around with a full heavy attack build on pts.

I think i once saw Kevduit make a heavy attack DK build, it looked boring as ***...

There are options, I used one with Knights slayer and torug's some time ago, before oblivion glyph was changed into that crap it is now. It killed most enemy's quite fast, except those ubertanks and healbots. And no, it wasn't boring since it required a lot of awareness (you had to quite fast to swap to resto staff and put healing ward when health was low).

The nerfs to oblivion dmg and healing ward destroyed it. Now I see some guys trying something similar in Cyro, but it's just meme of what it was.

That's a shame mate, I only started playing a year a go. The build variety seems to have taken quite a nose dive since launch from what I hear...

yup.

At launch there were few options too, but during 1.3 to 1.5 it was interesting. 1.6 made some changes, but there were a lot of options to play. Everything was somehow viable and competitive until Morrowind. After Morrowind we started slowly to crave into the current meta.

What's sad is that during 1.6 we believed the game was at its lowest spot and that it just only needed to improve... so we did everything we shouldn't have done: asking for nerfs. Now we highly regret that stupid path we took.

It's very interesting to see it has changed so much, has it always been expensive? What would your ideal molten armaments look like?

I would like a HOT with the buff as I don't think DK has access to any good HOTs outside of resto and cauterize. Cauterize I feel is a weak heal and no contest for the extra pressure you get from FOO. Cinder storm would be great if it either didn't limit mobility or didn't cost 5k 😭

Xvorg

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Pretty much useless ability. Only time I use it is if I feel like trolling around with a full heavy attack build on pts.

I think i once saw Kevduit make a heavy attack DK build, it looked boring as ***...

There are options, I used one with Knights slayer and torug's some time ago, before oblivion glyph was changed into that crap it is now. It killed most enemy's quite fast, except those ubertanks and healbots. And no, it wasn't boring since it required a lot of awareness (you had to quite fast to swap to resto staff and put healing ward when health was low).

The nerfs to oblivion dmg and healing ward destroyed it. Now I see some guys trying something similar in Cyro, but it's just meme of what it was.

That's a shame mate, I only started playing a year a go. The build variety seems to have taken quite a nose dive since launch from what I hear...

yup.

At launch there were few options too, but during 1.3 to 1.5 it was interesting. 1.6 made some changes, but there were a lot of options to play. Everything was somehow viable and competitive until Morrowind. After Morrowind we started slowly to crave into the current meta.

What's sad is that during 1.6 we believed the game was at its lowest spot and that it just only needed to improve... so we did everything we shouldn't have done: asking for nerfs. Now we highly regret that stupid path we took.

It's very interesting to see it has changed so much, has it always been expensive? What would your ideal molten armaments look like?

I would like a HOT with the buff as I don't think DK has access to any good HOTs outside of resto and cauterize. Cauterize I feel is a weak heal and no contest for the extra pressure you get from FOO. Cinder storm would be great if it either didn't limit mobility or didn't cost 5k 😭

I can't remember f it was as expensive at launch. At launch the numbers were quite different from what are now (max Magicka never got over 2k due to diminishing returns, and costs were around 2 and 3 figures, similar to current ulti costs), but I recall that it used to buff you and allies, so it seems it was somehow expensive.

Imho it should go back to the first or even the second iteration: adding flame/poison dmg to your weapon or basic attacks or working as an execute on basic attacks (including bash) while keeping the major buffs. The second one is quite interesting because it demands skill to use it in the precise moment not to waste the buff, like in middle of a fight to efectively execute an enemy.

Prebuffing on a DK goes against the very same rules of the class. DK is more about reacting, that's why it is much more reliable to use a pot/entropy/momentum

relentless_turnip

Xvorg wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Pretty much useless ability. Only time I use it is if I feel like trolling around with a full heavy attack build on pts.

I think i once saw Kevduit make a heavy attack DK build, it looked boring as ***...

There are options, I used one with Knights slayer and torug's some time ago, before oblivion glyph was changed into that crap it is now. It killed most enemy's quite fast, except those ubertanks and healbots. And no, it wasn't boring since it required a lot of awareness (you had to quite fast to swap to resto staff and put healing ward when health was low).

The nerfs to oblivion dmg and healing ward destroyed it. Now I see some guys trying something similar in Cyro, but it's just meme of what it was.

That's a shame mate, I only started playing a year a go. The build variety seems to have taken quite a nose dive since launch from what I hear...

yup.

At launch there were few options too, but during 1.3 to 1.5 it was interesting. 1.6 made some changes, but there were a lot of options to play. Everything was somehow viable and competitive until Morrowind. After Morrowind we started slowly to crave into the current meta.

What's sad is that during 1.6 we believed the game was at its lowest spot and that it just only needed to improve... so we did everything we shouldn't have done: asking for nerfs. Now we highly regret that stupid path we took.

It's very interesting to see it has changed so much, has it always been expensive? What would your ideal molten armaments look like?

I would like a HOT with the buff as I don't think DK has access to any good HOTs outside of resto and cauterize. Cauterize I feel is a weak heal and no contest for the extra pressure you get from FOO. Cinder storm would be great if it either didn't limit mobility or didn't cost 5k 😭

I can't remember f it was as expensive at launch. At launch the numbers were quite different from what are now (max Magicka never got over 2k due to diminishing returns, and costs were around 2 and 3 figures, similar to current ulti costs), but I recall that it used to buff you and allies, so it seems it was somehow expensive.

Imho it should go back to the first or even the second iteration: adding flame/poison dmg to your weapon or basic attacks or working as an execute on basic attacks (including bash) while keeping the major buffs. The second one is quite interesting because it demands skill to use it in the precise moment not to waste the buff, like in middle of a fight to efectively execute an enemy.

Prebuffing on a DK goes against the very same rules of the class. DK is more about reacting, that's why it is much more reliable to use a pot/entropy/momentum

Both very interesting iterations...
In terms what DK is about... I'm not sure a developer could tell you. I know we all have had to move well away from attrition in dragonhold. I think high burst damage is the only way you can feasible build at the moment. Unless you want to be part of the problem and go tanky 🙄