Abilities and damage shouldn't scale with Max Resources

teladoy

I think you messed up in the moment you did that damage and abilities scales with max stamina and Magicka.

And I believe here lies the reason of many broken things.

I my opinion you should separate them. One thing should be weapon and spell power and another Max Magicka and stamina.

Max Resources should be to spam more abilities while weapon and spell power to increment the damage. It sounds even logic for me and I don't understand why it has not been designed like that from the beginning. For me it sounds like you wanted to do it the easiest way.

I think it would balance many things and make people to have to choose between more sustain, damage or a combination of both.

I know it will required the rework of many sets and skills but I believe it would be the right thing to do.

wild_kmacdb16_ESO

I disagree.

AgaTheGreat

teladoy wrote: »

I think you messed up in the moment you did that damage and abilities scales with max stamina and Magicka.

And I believe here lies the reason of many broken things.

I my opinion you should separate them. One thing should be weapon and spell power and another Max Magicka and stamina.

Max Resources should be to spam more abilities while weapon and spell power to increment the damage. It sounds even logic for me and I don't understand why it has not been designed like that from the beginning. For me it sounds like you wanted to do it the easiest way.

I think it would balance many things and make people to have to choose between more sustain, damage or a combination of both.

I know it will required the rework of many sets and skills but I believe it would be the right thing to do.

I don't understand your reasoning.

What are the broken things you talk about?

IMHO, what you talk about is a l2p issue.

TheShadowScout

Ehhhh... nah.

It only makes sense that effects should scale with attributes...

Yes, it -would- have been better to have more attrributes, and make the scaling more involved... give people more option as to what they want to put their points in, for which effect, instead of an "all-in" approach... but alas, that ship has sailed, been set on fire and sunk a loooong time ago.

Yes, it -would- be better if there was some "diminishing returns" to the scaling, so that these toxic "over-the-top-specialized" builds became a little less effective, and people could actually have to think about which kind of build they want to try instead of all having follow the "most effective" setup for more diversity... and I really hope that someday they will make steps in that direction again.

Yes, it would be good if -every- attribote had benefits for -every- character, benefits as juicy as the offense scaling from your "action" attribute... and who knows, maybe that too will be something they might someday add to the game...

But in the end, we cannot expect them to redo their whole game at this point, that would be too much effort for too little retuirn in their eyes.

Toanis

teladoy wrote: »

Max Resources should be to spam more abilities while weapon and spell power to increment the damage. It sounds even logic for me and I don't understand why it has not been designed like that from the beginning. For me it sounds like you wanted to do it the easiest way.

I think it would balance many things and make people to have to choose between more sustain, damage or a combination of both.

Don't we already have that choice? One set piece worth of weapon/spell damage adds 23% more raw damage than one piece of stamina/magicka (129 vs. 1096/10.46). The higher resource pool from stamina/magicka has diminishing returns (20k to 21k = +5%, 30k to 31k = +3.3%) and situational value (28k vs. 30k makes no difference when you want to spam a 4k ability until you run out of juice, and at 10k remaining resource it doesn't matter whether the max is 20k or 40k.)

Right now we have the choice between higher raw damage and higher sustain via either initial resource pool or higher regeneration. The situational value of resource is made up for by resource also contributing to damage. When you take away the damage part from stamina/magicka, and adjust the rest of the game for the missing 2-3k damage, you make weapon/spell damage much more worth it. It would be a no brainer then, to build for damage and try to get the first shot. Everyone will be a gank build in PVP, because sustain is worthless when the first hit kills you.

Drako_Ei

The only thing they need to separate is weapon/spell power and healing power...
The more damage your character does, the more tanky it becomes because of heals, its so stupid.

Juhasow

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

teladoy wrote: »

I think you messed up in the moment you did that damage and abilities scales with max stamina and Magicka.

And I believe here lies the reason of many broken things.

I my opinion you should separate them. One thing should be weapon and spell power and another Max Magicka and stamina.

Max Resources should be to spam more abilities while weapon and spell power to increment the damage. It sounds even logic for me and I don't understand why it has not been designed like that from the beginning. For me it sounds like you wanted to do it the easiest way.

I think it would balance many things and make people to have to choose between more sustain, damage or a combination of both.

I know it will required the rework of many sets and skills but I believe it would be the right thing to do.

I don't understand your reasoning.

What are the broken things you talk about?

IMHO, what you talk about is a l2p issue.

Ummm how is opinion about scaling a l2p issue ?

Alienoutlaw

erm............just no.

Unified_Gaming

Drako_Ei wrote: »

The only thing they need to separate is weapon/spell power and healing power...
The more damage your character does, the more tanky it becomes because of heals, its so stupid.

Someone who gets it! The dilemma is that self healing would be destoryed and so solo content pve and pve would become unplayable and thus magicka shields would be at a massive advantage. You'd see people just use shields aa sudo heals even more than they do now and stam would be force to roll or build passive hp regen through troll king and allessian order. You will get to the same issue we have today but more pronounced. They should instead stop it scaling beyond a point with heavy diminishing returns and make more % healing done sets to make up for the lose so you either do some dps and heal extremely well or do great dps and have some healing.

Qbiken

Sure, let's change fundamental mechanisms of the game 5+ years in because that will sure turn out great........

The idea to separate damage from your primary resource is probably one of the stupidest ideas I've heard and it will destroy anything that has to do with solo/small group PvP.

mikemacon

No.

Ksariyu

Qbiken wrote: »

Sure, let's change fundamental mechanisms of the game 5+ years in because that will sure turn out great........

The idea to separate damage from your primary resource is probably one of the stupidest ideas I've heard and it will destroy anything that has to do with solo/small group PvP.

One Tamriel was a literal redesign of the leveling system, and it was one of the most successful changes the game's made since launch.
But how does this ruin PvP? As someone who doesn't play a lot of PvP, I'm genuinely curious.

Personally, I'd love to see max resource scaling be removed. Magicka builds, such as Magblade, are locked completely out of using melee weapons like daggers that would be far more fitting to the playstyle and theme of the class, simply because LAs are so important and they scale with max resources. Similarly, any sort of hybrid build is immediately gimped from the start because they lose damage the second they choose to put an attribute point into a second resource. This right here is a big part of the reason Stam builds suffer so much in the class identity department, because they're only allowed to use at most 4-5 of their 15 class skills. It's also why so many sets, especially crafted ones, are F-tier, because who cares about getting both weapon and spell damage on a set when you can only benefit from one anyway?

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Drako_Ei wrote: »

The only thing they need to separate is weapon/spell power and healing power...
The more damage your character does, the more tanky it becomes because of heals, its so stupid.

Someone who gets it! The dilemma is that self healing would be destoryed and so solo content pve and pve would become unplayable and thus magicka shields would be at a massive advantage.

Hey, everyone always says they want Overland to be harder. Besides, maybe then healers will actually have a use outside of Vet-DLC and Trials.

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

teladoy wrote: »

I think you messed up in the moment you did that damage and abilities scales with max stamina and Magicka.

And I believe here lies the reason of many broken things.

I my opinion you should separate them. One thing should be weapon and spell power and another Max Magicka and stamina.

Max Resources should be to spam more abilities while weapon and spell power to increment the damage. It sounds even logic for me and I don't understand why it has not been designed like that from the beginning. For me it sounds like you wanted to do it the easiest way.

I think it would balance many things and make people to have to choose between more sustain, damage or a combination of both.

I know it will required the rework of many sets and skills but I believe it would be the right thing to do.

I don't understand your reasoning.

What are the broken things you talk about?

IMHO, what you talk about is a l2p issue.

"I don't understand, must be a learn to play issue." Sounds more like a learn to read issue my dude.

idk

While I respect OP has an opinion and we are all entitled to it but their reasoning is very flawed at best.

The strongest point OP makes is that max resources is for spamming abilities and that people should have to choose between more sustain or damage of a mix between.

The issue with OP's reasoning is that the game is already setup that way. We already have to make choices between doing more damage per ability or sustain via magicka or stamina regen.

So how OP says it should be is how it is in both design intent and practice. OP may take issue with that fact we have two different stats that work into the calculation for damage but they have not articulated it here. More so it would seem to be splitting hairs.

jcm2606

Ksariyu wrote: »

One Tamriel was a literal redesign of the leveling system, and it was one of the most successful changes the game's made since launch.

One Tamriel also came around 2 years into the game's life span, and only touched on the leveling experience, not the entire foundation of combat-related stats.

Ksariyu wrote: »

Magicka builds, such as Magblade, are locked completely out of using melee weapons like daggers that would be far more fitting to the playstyle and theme of the class, simply because LAs are so important and they scale with max resources.

They also scale with the respective weapon/spell damage, weapon/spell crit, and phys/spell pen. Even if they decoupled damage from max mag/stam, you're still going to be building primarily in one direction or the other, so you've still got the same issue.

If you want to use stam weapons on a mag class, you should be asking for light/heavy attacks to scale off of your highest stats, not decoupling damage from max mag/stam.

Ksariyu wrote: »

Similarly, any sort of hybrid build is immediately gimped from the start because they lose damage the second they choose to put an attribute point into a second resource.

As explained above, decouple damage from max mag/stam, and you'd have the exact same problem, with one less stat to worry about. You'll still be building primarily for weapon or spell damage, weapon or spell crit, phys or spell pen, not both.

Ksariyu wrote: »

This right here is a big part of the reason Stam builds suffer so much in the class identity department, because they're only allowed to use at most 4-5 of their 15 class skills.

Above.

And this ultimately boils down to poorly designed skill lines. More skills can be designed to function effectively on both, the old classes just weren't designed like that. There's nothing stopping Zenimax from ensuring that both mag and stam have at least 1 single target spammable, 1 single target burst skill, and 1 single target DoT in their class kit.

There's enough skills to go around for that, and attacks are ultimately the only skills that need options for both specs, utility skills are fine on magicka, provided the effect is also effective on stamina.

Ksariyu wrote: »

It's also why so many sets, especially crafted ones, are F-tier, because who cares about getting both weapon and spell damage on a set when you can only benefit from one anyway?

Above.

Ksariyu wrote: »

Hey, everyone always says they want Overland to be harder. Besides, maybe then healers will actually have a use outside of Vet-DLC and Trials.

Overland won't be harder, because the issue isn't healing, it's outgoing damage and the lack of incoming damage. Nerfing healing isn't going to do anything, people will still roll through mobs like a hot knife through butter, before the mob has a chance to gingerly slap them softly.

Royaji

Ksariyu wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Sure, let's change fundamental mechanisms of the game 5+ years in because that will sure turn out great........

The idea to separate damage from your primary resource is probably one of the stupidest ideas I've heard and it will destroy anything that has to do with solo/small group PvP.

One Tamriel was a literal redesign of the leveling system, and it was one of the most successful changes the game's made since launch.
But how does this ruin PvP? As someone who doesn't play a lot of PvP, I'm genuinely curious.

Personally, I'd love to see max resource scaling be removed. Magicka builds, such as Magblade, are locked completely out of using melee weapons like daggers that would be far more fitting to the playstyle and theme of the class, simply because LAs are so important and they scale with max resources. Similarly, any sort of hybrid build is immediately gimped from the start because they lose damage the second they choose to put an attribute point into a second resource. This right here is a big part of the reason Stam builds suffer so much in the class identity department, because they're only allowed to use at most 4-5 of their 15 class skills. It's also why so many sets, especially crafted ones, are F-tier, because who cares about getting both weapon and spell damage on a set when you can only benefit from one anyway?

Stamina weapons do not work on magicka builds because HA restore the wrong resource and both LA and HA are affected by weapon damage, max stamina, physical penetration, weapon crit chance and physical blue CP stars all of which are low on mag builds. Removing max stamina from this solves literally nothing.

Instead we can just have a magicka-sword option to get the spellsword type happy and call it a day.

Hybrids are not supposed to get the same damage as pure builds since they get to double dip in utility and sustain. It's another topic that no one cares about utility in ESO.

Stamina builds can and should be helped through introducing more stamina morphs, which is already on the agenda.

Danksta

This just makes max stats not worth investing into.

Strider__Roshin

Agreed. Having offensive and defensive abilities scale from the same resource pools is not wise. There needs to be a give and take.

karekiz

Would still need a merger making
Stam/Mag Pen - Into Pen
Weap Crit/Spell Crit - Into Crit
Weap Power/Spell Power - Into Crit Power

Removal of the separation of Fracture/Breach into a single spell value.

idk

@jcm2606

Zos is reworking the combat system as we speak. It is the source of all the heavy handed changes since they revisited race passives. If Zos were to have considered a change such as what OP wants it would be in the midst of implementing this new codified "vision" for combat in this game.

MerguezMan

Yes, the scaling should be reworked somehow. Current system is kind of stagnant once you hit CP cap.
No, max stamina/magicka is probably not the point to address.

Actually, damage scales with maximum resource, but it's rather incremental than proportional. Set perks that give weapon damage do give more damage than stamina perks, which is fine.

Damage used to scale with character level, which is hidden behind under-50 resource scaling since One Tamriel. You can still see the difference by wearing underlevelled gear (check stats on lv10 gear once at CP160+).

Last update did start to merge physical and magickal resistances into "armor", and I think this is a first move into a different system. The issue with weapon damage compared to spell damage may rather be bound-in passive skills and stats - damage, penetration, critical rating balances, induced by armor and weapon types.

This imbalance may also be considered for element statuses, as exemples:
- "concussed" from shock will increase aoe damage also on dual wield and bow skills
- "diseased" will also decrease target healing if using a resto or fire staff
While enchant damage may be weaker, the full effect status would still apply.

Removing the scaling would also remove the need to push one resource above the other, and in the end I'm afraid that would lead to an even worse meta where we would all run the same-ish few hybrid builds.

xxthir13enxx

I look forward to the release of your new game...assuming it’d at least function I’ll be happy to check it out. Until than...sit back and enjoy this mess

Dagoth_Rac

People would move all attribute points into health and any set/skill bonuses that buff max stamina/magicka would be moved into regen/cost reduction. And we would likely be right back where we are, but everyone would be tankier.

Nemesis7884

Honestly if EVERY ability simply scaled with max resources and would change its damage type accordingly (and maybe even use max resources?) you would get a lot more interesting morph options...now morps arent really an option to be honest - you basically are given what to take depending if you are stamina or magicka

thadjarvis

The problem is the changes are referring to a core aspect of ESO that has been built on

The idea of removing max stat scaling:
1) minimum health for a DD would be 30/35k PvE/PvP with health enchants, 5/1/1 light, Jewels of Misrule, 64 attributes
2) all health based scaling skills would be crazy forcing re-balance; would be hard to do with PvP and PvE tanking balanced together
3) all set bonuses with max stam or mag would be close to useless, which many have...
4) all hybrid sets without max stam/mag would become powerful
5) the healer role could be removed from the game except for buff optimization; the tank role could be removed in even more content
6) risk of death in all content would plummet requiring a massive overhaul of difficulty


The idea of scaling with whatever damage type is higher:
1) CP system would need overhaul
2) We have 6 classes but really 12 to choose from. Removing mag/stam distinction would cut the number of effective classes in half reducing gameplay variety.

We can assume in either case there would be many knock on effects. It would probably mean a complete re-design of many other core systems. No matter what happens, almost all players would have to re-grind all their gear all at once too. Probably would crush ESO population.

Seraphayel

The entire scaling in ESO should be redone. Makes no sense to have both max resources and spell/weapon damage to scale for damage.

I wish for some more creative builds, hybrids being truly viable and... soft caps being back.

Starlock

The fact that resources impact damage was by far the most unintuitive and nonsensical element of the combat system I ran into as a new player years ago. I finished the entire storyline on my first character utterly unaware that’s how it worked. And how could I have known? Nowhere was this explained to the player, and given the stats system was based on Skyrim, I naturally assumed it worked like it did in Skyrim - resources don’t impact damage in any way whatsoever. I only learned that they did through third party resources, and even there how it actually scales is about as transparent as mud.

@teladoy is spot on. Granted, at this point the change won’t be made and the system will just continue to not make any sense and be confusing. But one thing is certain - removal of the wonky scaling of damage with resources would instantly bring back hybrid characters, which would be great for the game.

Kolzki

It makes sense. Remove the resource scaling and I’ll immediate slot health glyphs, dump all my attribute points in health and run regen food. Are tankier builds with more regen really what we want?

Royaji

Starlock wrote: »

The fact that resources impact damage was by far the most unintuitive and nonsensical element of the combat system I ran into as a new player years ago. I finished the entire storyline on my first character utterly unaware that’s how it worked. And how could I have known? Nowhere was this explained to the player, and given the stats system was based on Skyrim, I naturally assumed it worked like it did in Skyrim - resources don’t impact damage in any way whatsoever. I only learned that they did through third party resources, and even there how it actually scales is about as transparent as mud.

The fact that your damage scales from max resources is actually mentioned in the game. Right on the character sheet if you hover over a stat it will give you a small explanation about it. Not the most obvious place, sure. But it is in the game. I believe they've also added a hint about this in Levelling Advisor.

And assuming that an MMO with entirely different set of rules works the same way as a single player game just because they belong to the same franchise is a bit shortsighted in general, I would say.

validifyedneb18_ESO

Well the actual balance between the 2 factors is balanced differently for every ability. Its only a standard rule that A/B ~= 10.5 with the coefficients.

thadjarvis

Still on hybrids by eliminating resource pool scaling? The problem of health/recovery stacking keeps getting mentioned with no acknowledgement of that issue or way to get around it. Within the constraints of current gear and skills, I can't see a solution but would be very intrigued to see one.

For creative hybrid seekers there are many in use and many not tried yet. Look at off-tank trial, dungeon tank off-heal/DPS, solo arena tank builds, or healer builds for ideas. Max DPS builds are simply pure glass cannons that stack everything to empower similar skills (physical or magical); that seems to make perfect sense as a physical specialist should always do the most physical damage.

In PvP there are tons of hybrid builds.



There are many complicated things in ESO. Base damage isn't really that complicated but it's hidden.
[Wp/Sp Damage + (Resource Poll / 10.5)] * (1+critical chance*critical damage) after which the attack/defense modifiers get complicated
They really should put effective stats on character sheet like block cost, dodge cost, effective weapon/spell power with crit/pen included (see UESP builder), mitigation, etc. to make it easy on players.
Then new players can would naturally begin reverse engineering how the game works by swapping item/mundus.

The resource pool affecting damage was intuitive to me but that's an opinion. I see it as anaerobic power. Bi-ped mammals (I guess bi-ped Lizards too) high in that stat very much tend to have high strength.

HackTheMinotaur

What if, instead of scaling with max stamina OR max magicka, abilities scaled with the total of both values. Scaling would need to be adjusted down a little bit: for example, a stamina build with 40k stam and 10k magicka would have a 50k effective "damage" resource pool.

Would this be enough of a trade-off to keep players from dumping 64 points into health?