Abilities and damage shouldn't scale with Max Resources

thadjarvis

That would seem to work. Good idea! Weapon/Spell damage/crit too I would think? CP would probably need overhaul but not too hard to do.

I hear the idea as a way to create more build variety/diversity. Is that the goal?

If so, there would still be the main issue: DD build diversity would be cut in half. Not at first, but once players test everything, there will be one optimal build for each class varied but content.

Simply,
Hybrid and build variety exists in all roles but pure DD as it is.
If non-pure DD isn't good enough, variety of pure-DD is cut in half with proposed changes.

Starlock

Seraphayel wrote: »

The entire scaling in ESO should be redone. Makes no sense to have both max resources and spell/weapon damage to scale for damage.

I wish for some more creative builds, hybrids being truly viable and... soft caps being back.

Yeah, soft caps is another way of doing it.

Royaji wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

The fact that resources impact damage was by far the most unintuitive and nonsensical element of the combat system I ran into as a new player years ago. I finished the entire storyline on my first character utterly unaware that’s how it worked. And how could I have known? Nowhere was this explained to the player, and given the stats system was based on Skyrim, I naturally assumed it worked like it did in Skyrim - resources don’t impact damage in any way whatsoever. I only learned that they did through third party resources, and even there how it actually scales is about as transparent as mud.

The fact that your damage scales from max resources is actually mentioned in the game. Right on the character sheet if you hover over a stat it will give you a small explanation about it. Not the most obvious place, sure. But it is in the game. I believe they've also added a hint about this in Levelling Advisor.

You can’t “hover over” things on console and the level up advisor didn’t exist when I started playing. As mentioned, it’s about as clear as mud and counterintuitive. Granted, there are a lot of counterintuitive things about this game... like how like tamriel makes you get weaker as you level up.

HackTheMinotaur

thadjarvis wrote: »

That would seem to work. Good idea! Weapon/Spell damage/crit too I would think? CP would probably need overhaul but not too hard to do.

I hear the idea as a way to create more build variety/diversity. Is that the goal?

If so, there would still be the main issue: DD build diversity would be cut in half. Not at first, but once players test everything, there will be one optimal build for each class varied but content.

Simply,
Hybrid and build variety exists in all roles but pure DD as it is.
If non-pure DD isn't good enough, variety of pure-DD is cut in half with proposed changes.

More build diversity, yes. Hybrids as viable in all content except maybe the top 5% (Veteran Trial run score guilds).

I think a "pure" stamina or magicka build should still parse slightly higher than a hybrid build. Logically speaking, if you put all of your training into one specific area ("magic" OR "weapons" - not both) you should get the best results.

Maybe this difference could be achieved through sets. So the very top end gear sets would still be either stamina or magicka build focused and only push either weapon or spell damage. But slightly weaker sets could include both weapon damage and spell damage (New Moon Acolyte and most Dragonhold sets did this) to still support hybrids at a high level.

Stibbons

Drako_Ei wrote: »

The only thing they need to separate is weapon/spell power and healing power...
The more damage your character does, the more tanky it becomes because of heals, its so stupid.

Hvy armor for tanking only. Right now hvy is stupid.

thadjarvis

I've seen some OTs using mag and stam skills to generate reasonable damage. If not also building to tank how high can it go now? Curious what is max damage of hybrids today? Would be neat to know what you've been able to parse in the current system. I would think hybrids as of now are viable in all but Vet DLC HM and some Vet DLC.

Food for thought: friends and I were walking through a CP 400 player on VC tying to do vMA for the first time (no MA experience at all) as a complete hybrid bc that's what he wanted to do. He made it halfway through in an hour. The player had never parsed before and we had to explain most skills. The build was not even close to optimal (for hybrid). Ie hybrids are very viable.

Another: I've seen videos with hybrids solo-ing parts of vBRP

Those two are definitely in the difficulty level that 95% of players don't touch. People going for Vet HM score runs? That could be less than 0.1% of the playerbase.

I guess I'm missing the point. For really hard content everyone would try to be as optimal as possible. Eg with the bleed set DW/2h worked fine in Scalebreaker but you never saw it in really hard content for the group bc why would you make your team struggle more. Supposing the full mag and stam builds remain optimal, why would anyone use a hybrid in critically difficult content (for the particular group) anyway. In content in which the group doesn't benefit/require optimal builds, can't we just use hybrid builds of today? Like all 4 petsorc, naked, or no weapons trial runs.

I'm missing what we'd gain? There are costs but haven't gone they much bc I'm still trying to understand why. Lots of respect for thinking through it; comments above all in good spirited discourse.

thadjarvis

@Stibbons Heavy armor benefits all resource pools while Light/Medium focus on one. Somehow restricting heavy to pure tanks would hurt hybrids I would think.

Syrpynt

Old thread I know, but this is exactly why BG PvP is broken. There's the Battle-Spirit Nerf that reduces healing received/done--but the strongest players both damage through everyone AND heal through everything with a S&S and a healing staff or are a healing build that just happens to wreck with damage too. Healing and Damage DO need to be separated. It IS possible, anyone that disagrees just doesn't like that they can't be solo-unkillable if this change happened. This goes back to my own post about making a nerf to roles based on what the role you choose:
• If you select healer role, your dps and buffs decrease, but your healing is increased.
• If you select tank, your damage and healing suffers, but your buffs increase.
• If you select dps, your healing and defensive buffs decrease, but your damage increases.

I'm not proposing these nerfs to make the SECONDARY roles of a build unusable--but it should be enough of a nerf that keeps players from being that "OP healer+dps hybrid" that just ruins the need for ANY other type of build.

zaria

Qbiken wrote: »

Sure, let's change fundamental mechanisms of the game 5+ years in because that will sure turn out great........

The idea to separate damage from your primary resource is probably one of the stupidest ideas I've heard and it will destroy anything that has to do with solo/small group PvP.

No the idea is pretty old and was kind of a ting at lauchs.

However giving this idea to someone who seriously considered adding global cool downs on AoE, who is the most stupid idea in the game who is kind of serious, flying mounts and playable daedra is so much better even if bad it will not break the game for most.
Don't give the chimpanzee an life hand grenade.

linuxlady

Drako_Ei wrote: »

The only thing they need to separate is weapon/spell power and healing power...
The more damage your character does, the more tanky it becomes because of heals, its so stupid.

If you took it away healers would be worthless

Jeremy

teladoy wrote: »

I think you messed up in the moment you did that damage and abilities scales with max stamina and Magicka.

And I believe here lies the reason of many broken things.

I my opinion you should separate them. One thing should be weapon and spell power and another Max Magicka and stamina.

Max Resources should be to spam more abilities while weapon and spell power to increment the damage. It sounds even logic for me and I don't understand why it has not been designed like that from the beginning. For me it sounds like you wanted to do it the easiest way.

I think it would balance many things and make people to have to choose between more sustain, damage or a combination of both.

I know it will required the rework of many sets and skills but I believe it would be the right thing to do.

One problem I see with that approach is players would have to rely solely on gear to increase their offense. Because you can only choose between magicka. health, and stamina to put attribute points into.

I agree with you the reason they did this is likely because they wanted to simplify things.

zaria

linuxlady wrote: »

Drako_Ei wrote: »

The only thing they need to separate is weapon/spell power and healing power...
The more damage your character does, the more tanky it becomes because of heals, its so stupid.

If you took it away healers would be worthless

Agree outside an trial setting, and have fun doing solo stuff including solo arenas.

Now I agree in theory that resources should not give power, bullets from an an gun with an large magazine don't do more damage than an an single shot gun with the same bullet and barrel, the benefit is higher rate of fire.

However trusting changes like this to some who tough global cool downs on AoE was an good idea is extremely scary.
I would not trust them to poor water out of an boot with instruction at the heal.

Jeremy

Qbiken wrote: »

Sure, let's change fundamental mechanisms of the game 5+ years in because that will sure turn out great........

Yeah, I tend to agree.

The OP and others make a lot of good points. But at this stage, such a core change to the way the game functions would be a vast undertaking. It would be like designing an entirely new combat system from the ground up.

Seraphayel

linuxlady wrote: »

Drako_Ei wrote: »

The only thing they need to separate is weapon/spell power and healing power...
The more damage your character does, the more tanky it becomes because of heals, its so stupid.

If you took it away healers would be worthless

Healers should heal and not DPS. That you're able to do both and be super efficient while doing both is the problem.

You should have to choose between: Tank - Damage - Healing. Warhammer Online had this concept and it worked out very well.

Tank > Melee > Casters (> Tank)

But right now you can be everything at the same time which is the biggest problem of ESO. You can be super tanky, heal yourself easily and still deal enough damage to be meaningful. This shouldn't be the case. Imagine all three as 100% you distribute between those three roles: you can be 33% good at each of them, neglect one completely and be 50:50, 66:33 or whatever. But right now it's beyond the 100% that should be achievable.

GrimTheReaper45

Ive felt like this was weird since i first stated playing eso. However if they were to change it they would really have to adjust some things on mag side.

As a mainly mag player I would be pretty skeptical about that. Sometimes it doesnt seem like zos has a good understanding of how mag players like to play and what they need for that. Especially on the pvp balance side of it. The one sidedness we see in pve comes down whats currently most meta. Pvp though we have seen stam be alot more solid of a choice than mag for quite a while.

Vlad9425

Damage scaling by max resources seems reasonable to me. The balancing problems come from the broken OP gear sets they keep adding.

josiahva

I agree with the OP. There is zero reason to have damage scale with max resources...not only does it destroy even the idea of a viable hybrid build...but there are so few damage abilities that scale with max health as opposed to max stam or max magicka, you can't make a build with health as the main damage resource(no, I am not talking tanks, I am talking about using max health as a resource pool with low resistances...with it not being uncommon to be below 25% health, leading to a very risky playstyle). Who am I kidding though? There is no play as you want in this game...only play as ZOS thinks you should.

BXR_Lonestar

teladoy wrote: »

I think you messed up in the moment you did that damage and abilities scales with max stamina and Magicka.

And I believe here lies the reason of many broken things.

I my opinion you should separate them. One thing should be weapon and spell power and another Max Magicka and stamina.

Max Resources should be to spam more abilities while weapon and spell power to increment the damage. It sounds even logic for me and I don't understand why it has not been designed like that from the beginning. For me it sounds like you wanted to do it the easiest way.

I think it would balance many things and make people to have to choose between more sustain, damage or a combination of both.

I know it will required the rework of many sets and skills but I believe it would be the right thing to do.

The only way this would work is if there was an increase in ability cost based on how much Spell/Weapon damage you have. That way, the player is choosing to have the ability to spam abilities, which are less damaging overall, or they have stronger/more costly abilities, but due to cost and lowered stat pool, you cannot spam them like you could if the abilities were lower cost. Otherwise, stacking Spell/Weapon Damage would be the ONLY way to go if we were just looking at these two stats.

ZOS_ConnorG

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