Remove the Knockdown from Toppling Charge

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Ohtimbar wrote: »

It wouldn’t be much of a toppling charge if didn’t topple the target.

Was just going to say that. We would probably need to back to the drawing board on the name. Haha.

technohic

Take off balance off toppling charge so its not overloaded. Add Off balance to explosive charge in an AOE, remove the AOE damage and make it stam based and actually used.

WreckfulAbandon

It's fine as is. No changes needed

Actually, it's buggy af so only change it needs is to actually go off everytime you press the button.

Jeremy

nsmurfer wrote: »

THis is the one skill that is making magplar a overpowered class in the game.

You should not have Stun+Gap Close+off balance in one skill. It can jump through space and go straight up, even though other class gapclosers like Ambush was nerfed not to be able do that. It is ridiculous how overpowered this skill is right now. Every other class has use to three different skills for these three functions, which means triple the cost, 3xgcd as well two extra required skill slots. Half of the Sorc and NB skills got nerfed saying they did a lot more than the average power budget. Then why does magplar skills have to be the only exceptions?

Toppling Charge is the skill which makes it possible to just crutch on Jab-spam ever since the gap closers were made super fast and the minimum distance removed. Toppling Charge > Jabspam, if they last long enough repeat the same thing. They also have the luxury of having the only burst ultimate with no cast time or travel time, yet another exception.

Just revert buff to how it was when it only knockdown casting targets. Or give it a kiss curse to make up for doing more than another gap closer in the game.

And before anyone says just block, just the speed buff, it is not possible to block an incoming topling charge all of time. It works hardly 20% of the time and rest of the time, the game does not detect that you are blocking by the time the target knocks you back.

I would support this change. Not because I believe the skill is over-powered (it isn't, at least not in my opinion) but because I generally just hate knock back attacks. They are just annoying. I would support removing them outright from the game entirely.

Juhasow

BNOC wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Every person who asks for this to be nerfed should include which of their class cc or root skills they are willing to go without. Because the Templar is the only class without roots, and only has 2 cc skills, javelin which knocks enemies outside of your damage range, and toppling charge.

Eclipse/Unstable Core have a root component.. On top of that templar have very high amount of abilities that have snares as secondary effects.

When was the last time you have been rooted by Eclipse? Actually, when was the last time you saw a templar using that terrible ability?

Doesnt matter. You've said they dont have root and that is simply incorrect. Last time I saw templar was using eclipse was in Elsweyr when every templar was spamming Living Dark morph on cooldown. That is the issue with templar and reliable roots. Class already have so many snares that adding reliable root on top of that is too much.

That being said even Unstable Core is not as terrible as people trying to make it. It's just not needed for a class that have so easy acces to so many easy to apply snares with 60% snare from Living Dark being actually stronger then immobilizes. Still if You want You can have immobilize on templar You can have it so the point You've made in Your original post doesnt stand.

I never said Templars have no root.

Ah so You've just jumped into conversation of 2 other people with Your random arguments. My mistake I was certain Your response was from the person I quoted. Still my points stand. Unstable Core is not terrible ability it's just not needed because templar already have high amount of movement control without it. And other morph was the most abused templar ability in last patch when it had root basically passively applied.

I can guarantee we'd all rather an effective root over the many snares, of which, only 1 is applied at a time.

You can say we have a high amount of movement control, but Templars are snaring people on average for 30% - This can be made completely redundant in the exact same way that roots on other classes are.

Oh lord, seen this as well "60% snare from Living Dark being actually stronger then immobilizes". What, tell me how that works?? Let me reiterate again for the 14,000th time since LD was nerfed, moving at any % speed is better than not moving at all. Where are you getting a 60% snare is stronger than a 100% snare? Why aren't you complaining about talons being an AOE root etc?

Run simple and almost necessary snare removal and neither are an issue, it's really that simple.

How suprising it is that templars like You would like to have reliable root easily applied to enemies. I mean who wouldnt want that?... Problem is we've all seen what is happening when templar is getting root like that not that long ago when living dark was applying immobilize. Problem is it's not about what You want or what You can guarantee but about what is balanced and templar having roots and snares both easily , basically passively applied is broken and unbalanced as we've all seen. Even if You would be left with just 1 snare but highly effective and easily applied it's still too much to have strong root on top of that on magplar.

Magplar can easily keep 40% snare with jabs or reflective light or 60% snare with living dark currently. And if You really and badly want immobilize You still have Unstable Core. Thing is You dont need that on magplar. It's really that simple.

As for 60% snare from Living Dark being stronger then immobilizes I was comparing it to immobilizes other classes have. You know the ones that require You to actively target enemy or make sure he's in range of the ability before using them. Compared to those 60% snare applied basically passively by using 1 ability every few seconds is simply stronger. You cannot dodge roll from snare You need to actively use ability that removes it and this costs You global cooldown. 60% snare is almost like being rooted and You can reiterate how many times You want whatever You want but You wont change the reality. It's not always about pure numbers comparision but about ability as whole and all of the factiors makinf it not just 1 value taken out of context. This is why 60% snare was removed from Ice Blockade , because it was simply too strong and felt worse then sitting in talons spam. If You dont see the difference between actively applied immobilize with 6m radius from talons and passively applied immobilize/snare with 36 meters radius from living dark then I have nothing more to say to You since Your bias is too obvious and there is no discussion with biased people in this game.

RaveRaveRaveRave

jlboozer wrote: »

RaveRaveRaveRave wrote: »

Remove Templars all together. There'd be 93% less players in all of PVP. Hate the bandwagon crutch bus chasers regardless of how good or bad of a player they are. It's just embarrassing. lol

Your tears are what's embarrassing bud. Tell us where the Bad Templar touched you?

Your rotation must be the x button. L2P?

buttaface

No gap closer on any regular skill in any game should also stun the target, so this is -one- nerf thread I agree with. The only one I've agreed with since the proc meta and the 30k shield/huge spell dmg days, so +1.

Skwor

buttaface wrote: »

No gap closer on any regular skill in any game should also stun the target, so this is -one- nerf thread I agree with. The only one I've agreed with since the proc meta and the 30k shield/huge spell dmg days, so +1.

Then you will not mind giving Templars a root.

Templars have 2 CC's one is useless as it pushes the target out of range. The other you want to nerf. Tell me how much you would like giving up ALL your CC's in the game on your main!

Regardless it is not hard at all to counter, it really is a L2P issue.

Mr_Walker

Jeremy wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

THis is the one skill that is making magplar a overpowered class in the game.

You should not have Stun+Gap Close+off balance in one skill. It can jump through space and go straight up, even though other class gapclosers like Ambush was nerfed not to be able do that. It is ridiculous how overpowered this skill is right now. Every other class has use to three different skills for these three functions, which means triple the cost, 3xgcd as well two extra required skill slots. Half of the Sorc and NB skills got nerfed saying they did a lot more than the average power budget. Then why does magplar skills have to be the only exceptions?

Toppling Charge is the skill which makes it possible to just crutch on Jab-spam ever since the gap closers were made super fast and the minimum distance removed. Toppling Charge > Jabspam, if they last long enough repeat the same thing. They also have the luxury of having the only burst ultimate with no cast time or travel time, yet another exception.

Just revert buff to how it was when it only knockdown casting targets. Or give it a kiss curse to make up for doing more than another gap closer in the game.

And before anyone says just block, just the speed buff, it is not possible to block an incoming topling charge all of time. It works hardly 20% of the time and rest of the time, the game does not detect that you are blocking by the time the target knocks you back.

I would support this change. Not because I believe the skill is over-powered (it isn't, at least not in my opinion) but because I generally just hate knock back attacks. They are just annoying. I would support removing them outright from the game entirely.

Kind of agree, there's way too much in the way of CC in this game.

But instead of removing any CC I would grant a blanket cc immunity for 10 seconds. Make combat feel fluid again.

BNOC

Juhasow wrote: »

BNOC wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Every person who asks for this to be nerfed should include which of their class cc or root skills they are willing to go without. Because the Templar is the only class without roots, and only has 2 cc skills, javelin which knocks enemies outside of your damage range, and toppling charge.

Eclipse/Unstable Core have a root component.. On top of that templar have very high amount of abilities that have snares as secondary effects.

When was the last time you have been rooted by Eclipse? Actually, when was the last time you saw a templar using that terrible ability?

Doesnt matter. You've said they dont have root and that is simply incorrect. Last time I saw templar was using eclipse was in Elsweyr when every templar was spamming Living Dark morph on cooldown. That is the issue with templar and reliable roots. Class already have so many snares that adding reliable root on top of that is too much.

That being said even Unstable Core is not as terrible as people trying to make it. It's just not needed for a class that have so easy acces to so many easy to apply snares with 60% snare from Living Dark being actually stronger then immobilizes. Still if You want You can have immobilize on templar You can have it so the point You've made in Your original post doesnt stand.

I never said Templars have no root.

Ah so You've just jumped into conversation of 2 other people with Your random arguments. My mistake I was certain Your response was from the person I quoted. Still my points stand. Unstable Core is not terrible ability it's just not needed because templar already have high amount of movement control without it. And other morph was the most abused templar ability in last patch when it had root basically passively applied.

I can guarantee we'd all rather an effective root over the many snares, of which, only 1 is applied at a time.

You can say we have a high amount of movement control, but Templars are snaring people on average for 30% - This can be made completely redundant in the exact same way that roots on other classes are.

Oh lord, seen this as well "60% snare from Living Dark being actually stronger then immobilizes". What, tell me how that works?? Let me reiterate again for the 14,000th time since LD was nerfed, moving at any % speed is better than not moving at all. Where are you getting a 60% snare is stronger than a 100% snare? Why aren't you complaining about talons being an AOE root etc?

Run simple and almost necessary snare removal and neither are an issue, it's really that simple.

How suprising it is that templars like You would like to have reliable root easily applied to enemies. I mean who wouldnt want that?... Problem is we've all seen what is happening when templar is getting root like that not that long ago when living dark was applying immobilize. Problem is it's not about what You want or what You can guarantee but about what is balanced and templar having roots and snares both easily , basically passively applied is broken and unbalanced as we've all seen. Even if You would be left with just 1 snare but highly effective and easily applied it's still too much to have strong root on top of that on magplar.

Magplar can easily keep 40% snare with jabs or reflective light or 60% snare with living dark currently. And if You really and badly want immobilize You still have Unstable Core. Thing is You dont need that on magplar. It's really that simple.

As for 60% snare from Living Dark being stronger then immobilizes I was comparing it to immobilizes other classes have. You know the ones that require You to actively target enemy or make sure he's in range of the ability before using them. Compared to those 60% snare applied basically passively by using 1 ability every few seconds is simply stronger. You cannot dodge roll from snare You need to actively use ability that removes it and this costs You global cooldown. 60% snare is almost like being rooted and You can reiterate how many times You want whatever You want but You wont change the reality. It's not always about pure numbers comparision but about ability as whole and all of the factiors makinf it not just 1 value taken out of context. This is why 60% snare was removed from Ice Blockade , because it was simply too strong and felt worse then sitting in talons spam. If You dont see the difference between actively applied immobilize with 6m radius from talons and passively applied immobilize/snare with 36 meters radius from living dark then I have nothing more to say to You since Your bias is too obvious and there is no discussion with biased people in this game.

You're right, it's not a surprise at all, do you want multiple snares that do not stack and are literally useless 90% of the time?

Let me understand your definition of balance:
Templar -

• Has multiple snares (Of which only one can be active on a target)
• Has a root that's triggered by the opponent on direct damage and can be cleansed before it triggers.
• Has 2 Standard, blockable CC's

Other classes -

• Have roots (single target, instant cast or AOE, instant cast)
• Have access to equally powerful snares and in the case that a Templar isn't using LD and is using UC for the root, even caltrops has a higher snare than those Templars have access to and caltrops must be an issue because according to the forums, ritual is.
• Have unblockable cc's

What's imbalanced? The fact that none of our stuff is instant application or unblockable? You're probably right, yeah.

You seem to know what Templars need or don't need so link me clips of you on your Templar, let me take a look at how effective you make that 40% snare against stam chars or anyone running snare immunity or if you're Xbox, come and show me.

You honestly believe LD is easier than waltzing into a group and casting talons, or encase for example? Come off of it.
Range has nothing to do with it, I could easily say that they have to be in range to hit you if you have LD, let alone the fact that LD is visible on the Templar.

A 60% snare is not almost like being rooted, it's 40% away from being rooted.

No I don't see the difference, Templars are an inherently 'in your face class', can you imagine how good an AOE root like talons or encase would be?? Run in, hit them with your AOE root, wait for it to finish then cast an unblockable CC; that's a 100% wipe for whoever is standing in front of me.

Whether you agree with the fact that 60% != 100% is on you. The reality is, if Templars had instant cast AOE roots at a smaller range, instant cast roots from a distance or unblockable CC's instead, you'd be in much bigger trouble.

Bashev

Make the stun and off balance if the skill was casted from 8m+

CynicK

I tryed to block it and I went to the ground anyway, I mean it interrupts too with characters that do not have a good close up spamable and i have to use wrecking blow is a nightmare he attacks you get interrupted and to the ground with all the nerfs to all other skills i do not see why this skill is still so brocken, at least that we can block it.
There was a guy that wered a monter set the other day that killed you while you where on the ground, he charged the set activated most of the times and you died, 40 kills I think he made that way, and many times when tryed to fight back with dizzy swing I just got interrupted if i was on cc immunity, that borken is that skill.

technohic

Dizzy swing is uninterruptible. please show me a video where it happens without being stunned.

Only set I can think of would be Calurion and Zaan maybe. Proc sets can still be a little OP in no CP but you're going to take that from any direct damage single target CC. Magicka Templar just happens to be 1 of the only classes that actually doesnt have an option for AOE unblockable, undodgeable CC. Dont try to tell me that's an advantage because a proc set killed you. Probably would have hurt more had invigorating drain proc it.

Stun on toppling charge is fine. I'll go even a step further and say more gap closers need a control ability of some sort. Especially the DK chains that pull the DK to the target as it is clunky slow, and with streaking sorcs, and the popularity of speed stacking; they need something to keep up with the kite potential in this game. If they could put a mechanic in to stick to the target while they move a couple seconds, then ok; remove stuns and roots, and snares from gap closers. Until that happens though; it's already pretty pathetic what speed can do in a crappy performance game like this.

GhostofDatthaw

nsmurfer wrote: »

THis is the one skill that is making magplar a overpowered class in the game.

You should not have Stun+Gap Close+off balance in one skill. It can jump through space and go straight up, even though other class gapclosers like Ambush was nerfed not to be able do that. It is ridiculous how overpowered this skill is right now. Every other class has use to three different skills for these three functions, which means triple the cost, 3xgcd as well two extra required skill slots. Half of the Sorc and NB skills got nerfed saying they did a lot more than the average power budget. Then why does magplar skills have to be the only exceptions?

Toppling Charge is the skill which makes it possible to just crutch on Jab-spam ever since the gap closers were made super fast and the minimum distance removed. Toppling Charge > Jabspam, if they last long enough repeat the same thing. They also have the luxury of having the only burst ultimate with no cast time or travel time, yet another exception.

Just revert buff to how it was when it only knockdown casting targets. Or give it a kiss curse to make up for doing more than another gap closer in the game.

And before anyone says just block, just the speed buff, it is not possible to block an incoming topling charge all of time. It works hardly 20% of the time and rest of the time, the game does not detect that you are blocking by the time the target knocks you back.

I do agree it is a skill left alone while others get stripped and in the current shift they are making this skill is over performing.

BUT

I would rather not see a nerf. I would rather see other class gap closers get an identity back and less of making things more bland.

BNOC

CynicK wrote: »

I tryed to block it and I went to the ground anyway, I mean it interrupts too with characters that do not have a good close up spamable and i have to use wrecking blow is a nightmare he attacks you get interrupted and to the ground with all the nerfs to all other skills i do not see why this skill is still so brocken, at least that we can block it.
There was a guy that wered a monter set the other day that killed you while you where on the ground, he charged the set activated most of the times and you died, 40 kills I think he made that way, and many times when tryed to fight back with dizzy swing I just got interrupted if i was on cc immunity, that borken is that skill.

If you went to the ground, you weren't blocking and if you were then it was a bug.

Talking about proc sets and toppling combined being an issue, I beg you go fight a MagDk that will literally CC you through block with Overwhelming, Shadowrend/Grothdarr and whatever else they choose and see how fast those stacks of damage burn you down.

Nobody is casting a toppling every time you dizzy, that's so dumb.
Anyone in a BG with 40 kills, was either:

• Definitely not doing that
• Was in a BG with people way below their skill level where you can get away with doing the dumbest and least productive things in game and still score kills.
• Was in a BG with people below their skill level and still weren't doing that. (Which 40 kills in max 10m (4p/m) would suggest)

Tan9oSuccka

CompM4s wrote: »

This patch most badwagon templars bailed already. They are back on their snipe spams and pet sorcs. A few stamplars stayed to use onslaught. I dont get the whole nerf toppling charge bit, really looks like a “l2p” issue. Maybe asking people for advice on how to fight templars would be better than asking for nerfs.

Sadly, most the meta squeakers moved to Pet Sorcs.

Zoo builds. Again.

Shanehere

Artorias24 wrote: »

The ambush from s&b is also a gap close and CC... Want to also nerf this?

Yes. They've already began nerfing spammables to no longer give things like fracture or breach (ex: Nightblade's surprise attack), I don't think any gap closers should give a CC. Unless it is an ultimate, like DK leap, because it's an ultimate.

Artorias24 wrote: »

Toppling is fine, its the only valid hard CC a magplar got. Javelin is useless if you shoot your target out of the range of your jabs...

They should change javelin so it does not do this. I never understood why they made the magicka-based class spammable melee range but made their magicka-based class CC promote a ranged playstyle.

Juhasow

BNOC wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BNOC wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Every person who asks for this to be nerfed should include which of their class cc or root skills they are willing to go without. Because the Templar is the only class without roots, and only has 2 cc skills, javelin which knocks enemies outside of your damage range, and toppling charge.

Eclipse/Unstable Core have a root component.. On top of that templar have very high amount of abilities that have snares as secondary effects.

When was the last time you have been rooted by Eclipse? Actually, when was the last time you saw a templar using that terrible ability?

Doesnt matter. You've said they dont have root and that is simply incorrect. Last time I saw templar was using eclipse was in Elsweyr when every templar was spamming Living Dark morph on cooldown. That is the issue with templar and reliable roots. Class already have so many snares that adding reliable root on top of that is too much.

That being said even Unstable Core is not as terrible as people trying to make it. It's just not needed for a class that have so easy acces to so many easy to apply snares with 60% snare from Living Dark being actually stronger then immobilizes. Still if You want You can have immobilize on templar You can have it so the point You've made in Your original post doesnt stand.

I never said Templars have no root.

Ah so You've just jumped into conversation of 2 other people with Your random arguments. My mistake I was certain Your response was from the person I quoted. Still my points stand. Unstable Core is not terrible ability it's just not needed because templar already have high amount of movement control without it. And other morph was the most abused templar ability in last patch when it had root basically passively applied.

I can guarantee we'd all rather an effective root over the many snares, of which, only 1 is applied at a time.

You can say we have a high amount of movement control, but Templars are snaring people on average for 30% - This can be made completely redundant in the exact same way that roots on other classes are.

Oh lord, seen this as well "60% snare from Living Dark being actually stronger then immobilizes". What, tell me how that works?? Let me reiterate again for the 14,000th time since LD was nerfed, moving at any % speed is better than not moving at all. Where are you getting a 60% snare is stronger than a 100% snare? Why aren't you complaining about talons being an AOE root etc?

Run simple and almost necessary snare removal and neither are an issue, it's really that simple.

How suprising it is that templars like You would like to have reliable root easily applied to enemies. I mean who wouldnt want that?... Problem is we've all seen what is happening when templar is getting root like that not that long ago when living dark was applying immobilize. Problem is it's not about what You want or what You can guarantee but about what is balanced and templar having roots and snares both easily , basically passively applied is broken and unbalanced as we've all seen. Even if You would be left with just 1 snare but highly effective and easily applied it's still too much to have strong root on top of that on magplar.

Magplar can easily keep 40% snare with jabs or reflective light or 60% snare with living dark currently. And if You really and badly want immobilize You still have Unstable Core. Thing is You dont need that on magplar. It's really that simple.

As for 60% snare from Living Dark being stronger then immobilizes I was comparing it to immobilizes other classes have. You know the ones that require You to actively target enemy or make sure he's in range of the ability before using them. Compared to those 60% snare applied basically passively by using 1 ability every few seconds is simply stronger. You cannot dodge roll from snare You need to actively use ability that removes it and this costs You global cooldown. 60% snare is almost like being rooted and You can reiterate how many times You want whatever You want but You wont change the reality. It's not always about pure numbers comparision but about ability as whole and all of the factiors makinf it not just 1 value taken out of context. This is why 60% snare was removed from Ice Blockade , because it was simply too strong and felt worse then sitting in talons spam. If You dont see the difference between actively applied immobilize with 6m radius from talons and passively applied immobilize/snare with 36 meters radius from living dark then I have nothing more to say to You since Your bias is too obvious and there is no discussion with biased people in this game.

You're right, it's not a surprise at all, do you want multiple snares that do not stack and are literally useless 90% of the time?

Let me understand your definition of balance:
Templar -

• Has multiple snares (Of which only one can be active on a target)
• Has a root that's triggered by the opponent on direct damage and can be cleansed before it triggers.
• Has 2 Standard, blockable CC's

Other classes -

• Have roots (single target, instant cast or AOE, instant cast)
• Have access to equally powerful snares and in the case that a Templar isn't using LD and is using UC for the root, even caltrops has a higher snare than those Templars have access to and caltrops must be an issue because according to the forums, ritual is.
• Have unblockable cc's

What's imbalanced? The fact that none of our stuff is instant application or unblockable? You're probably right, yeah.

You seem to know what Templars need or don't need so link me clips of you on your Templar, let me take a look at how effective you make that 40% snare against stam chars or anyone running snare immunity or if you're Xbox, come and show me.

You honestly believe LD is easier than waltzing into a group and casting talons, or encase for example? Come off of it.
Range has nothing to do with it, I could easily say that they have to be in range to hit you if you have LD, let alone the fact that LD is visible on the Templar.

A 60% snare is not almost like being rooted, it's 40% away from being rooted.

No I don't see the difference, Templars are an inherently 'in your face class', can you imagine how good an AOE root like talons or encase would be?? Run in, hit them with your AOE root, wait for it to finish then cast an unblockable CC; that's a 100% wipe for whoever is standing in front of me.

Whether you agree with the fact that 60% != 100% is on you. The reality is, if Templars had instant cast AOE roots at a smaller range, instant cast roots from a distance or unblockable CC's instead, you'd be in much bigger trouble.

It's not a suprise that You want immobilize on class that already have multiple snares applied passively. I thnk that is actually thing You're missing the most. Fact that those snares templar have are applied passively so that is the reason why they overlap each other. Because compared to snares on other classes templar snares are the easiest ones to apply yet the longest lasting ones.

It's not about my definition of balance but about what balance is in general in ESO. You're making some silly comparision of templar vs the world which completly misses the point and is kinda biased in its nature. It's obvious that if You compare 1 thing on 1 class vs that things on all the other classes then it may look weak. By that logic sorcs can come and complain "all the other classes have spammable abilities but we dont. It's unballanced" , or nightblades can come and say "all the other classes have spammable burst heal but we dont. It's unballanced" etc. You see how silly it is ? Balance is all about the fact that each class will miss something that other classes have but also will have something that none of the others classes have so comparing only 1 feature on 1 class to the same feature on other classes , while also completly ignoring full context of that thing is simply biased.

If Your way to get to Your point is by twisting the nature of what I said and taking it out of context then sorry but that is pathetic. I never said that I know what templar need or don't. I was clearly reffering to the previously mentioned fact that we've all seen what templars were capable to when they had reliable immobilize on Living Dark and that it was clearly too strong thus it's a proff templar is not in a need to have reliable immobilize like the one Living Dark had. As for Your *** measuring contest invitation sorry but I'll pass. If You fail to see the difference between practical part of 1 class and game balance then sorry but I wont help You with that. If You want to drive Your argumentation down to "I am better templar then You" then that is simply silly and misses the point of conversation. If Your arguments are weak I really dont care how good or bad magplar are You. As for people running with snare immunity abiliities thing is templar is not using his abilities primary for snares his snares are exclusively secondary effects of skills he's using for something else so fact enemy will be forced to use snare immunity ability on cooldown while fighting templar is an adventage on templar side since he's not wasting any time or resources to force enemy to waste time and resources to keep up. You continously fail to understand why templar snares are strong.

Yes old living dark was easier in usage then walking into a group with talons. Mostly because it could be used both offensively and defensively. And range has everything to do with it. Range plus fact it was working passively on You for 6 seconds after activating it not like other immobilizes that You need to wait for perfect moment to use and then use them. That atleast requires 2 brain cells to do , old Living Dark did not. You wont change reality by trying to twist it. Yes You had to be "in range" of living dark but that range was up to 36 meters radius not 6 meters like mentioned talons. You know what is the area difference of that ? And seriously Your argument is that You could see the bubble on magplar ? Great but what with that ? it was a bubble saying "if You attack me I'll immobilize You so going by Your logic seeing mag dk from 36 meters can tell You "if You'll come close I'll immobilize You". You know what's the difference ? Atleast You could attack that dk and not get penalized for that at all time.

By Your logic if 60% snare is 40% away from being rooted then it's 60% away from not being rooted thus it's closer to immobilize then to not being rooted so it's almost like immobilize lol. You see how silly Your logic is when continued ?

Well I know You dont see the difference and that is core issue in Your comments. You dont see the difference so You dont understand it which basically means You dont even know what we're talking about.

I am happy that at the end You agree that giving templar more controlling effects then they already have would make then too strong.

buttaface

Skwor wrote: »

Then you will not mind giving Templars a root.

Templars have a class gap closer, ranged execute, ranged, armor ignoring stun (nice try and fail at making that look like a disadvantage btw) and a low cost direct damage ult with no cast time, the best melee attack in the game enhanced by the best dps passives and among the better defensive passive in the game AT THE SAME TIME... also an aoe purge, a unique shut down switch no other class has and a full healing skill line.

Want an aoe hard CC? Slot Turn Evil.

No gap closer in this game or any other should have a stun attached.

BNOC

Juhasow wrote: »

Balance is all about the fact that each class will miss something that other classes have but also will have something that none of the others classes have so comparing only 1 feature on 1 class to the same feature on other classes , while also completly ignoring full context of that thing is simply biased.

You've just stated that balance is exactly what I described.
We have passive snares (that we don't need as some aren't ever active), we don't have unblockable CC's or instant cast roots.

Is that not what you're describing? Don't know why you think we have it all or that snares are the be all end all carry of the universe.

Juhasow wrote: »

As for Your *** measuring contest invitation sorry but I'll pass.

What a shocker, just like most of the people that complain about balance, you clearly don't play at the top. Get to the top of your class and then come talk about balance.

Juhasow wrote: »

You continously fail to understand why templar snares are strong.

I never said snares weren't strong, I said. roots are stronger; only 1 snare is being applied at a time and snare immunity literally makes you immune to snares and roots equally - If you're prepared for one, you're prepared for the other.

Get prepared.

Juhasow wrote: »

Yes old living dark was easier in usage then walking into a group with talons. snip.. whole paragraph about old living dark.

Why you harping on about the original LD? That's long gone and yes, walking into a crowd with talons or encase is much easier than putting a single target bubble on someone that they may never proc, they may cleanse or they may just wait out.

Juhasow wrote: »

By Your logic if 60% snare is 40% away from being rooted then it's 60% away from not being rooted thus it's closer to immobilize then to not being rooted so it's almost like immobilize lol. You see how silly Your logic is when continued ?

...No , it's not almost like an immobilize.

Juhasow wrote: »

You dont even know what we're talking about.

I guarantee I know more about what you're talking about than you.

Juhasow wrote: »

I am happy that at the end You agree that giving templar more controlling effects then they already have would make then too strong.

Yes - "class will miss something that other classes have but also will have something that none of the others classes have" - if we had everything other classes have, we would completely destroy people and it would be insanely unbalanced. But, as the very first comment, we don't have everything and I'm not advocating that we should, whatsoever.


I know you think it's a big *** contest but seriously, if you're going to reply to me again, link some clips. I want to see what kind of player I'm talking to, because it's my opinion that anyone in the middle of the skill level, getting dipped on by people at the top should not be talking about balance and it's my belief that you're the guy in the middle.

Juhasow

BNOC wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Balance is all about the fact that each class will miss something that other classes have but also will have something that none of the others classes have so comparing only 1 feature on 1 class to the same feature on other classes , while also completly ignoring full context of that thing is simply biased.

You've just stated that balance is exactly what I described.
We have passive snares (that we don't need as some aren't ever active), we don't have unblockable CC's or instant cast roots.

Is that not what you're describing? Don't know why you think we have it all or that snares are the be all end all carry of the universe.

Juhasow wrote: »

As for Your *** measuring contest invitation sorry but I'll pass.

What a shocker, just like most of the people that complain about balance, you clearly don't play at the top. Get to the top of your class and then come talk about balance.

Juhasow wrote: »

You continously fail to understand why templar snares are strong.

I never said snares weren't strong, I said. roots are stronger; only 1 snare is being applied at a time and snare immunity literally makes you immune to snares and roots equally - If you're prepared for one, you're prepared for the other.

Get prepared.

Juhasow wrote: »

Yes old living dark was easier in usage then walking into a group with talons. snip.. whole paragraph about old living dark.

Why you harping on about the original LD? That's long gone and yes, walking into a crowd with talons or encase is much easier than putting a single target bubble on someone that they may never proc, they may cleanse or they may just wait out.

Juhasow wrote: »

By Your logic if 60% snare is 40% away from being rooted then it's 60% away from not being rooted thus it's closer to immobilize then to not being rooted so it's almost like immobilize lol. You see how silly Your logic is when continued ?

...No , it's not almost like an immobilize.

Juhasow wrote: »

You dont even know what we're talking about.

I guarantee I know more about what you're talking about than you.

Juhasow wrote: »

I am happy that at the end You agree that giving templar more controlling effects then they already have would make then too strong.

Yes - "class will miss something that other classes have but also will have something that none of the others classes have" - if we had everything other classes have, we would completely destroy people and it would be insanely unbalanced. But, as the very first comment, we don't have everything and I'm not advocating that we should, whatsoever.


I know you think it's a big *** contest but seriously, if you're going to reply to me again, link some clips. I want to see what kind of player I'm talking to, because it's my opinion that anyone in the middle of the skill level, getting dipped on by people at the top should not be talking about balance and it's my belief that you're the guy in the middle.

I like how You went into next level of avoiding reality and now You're just responding to the pieces of my comment taken out of context and twisted. Sorry but at this point Youur bias is simply too obvious. I could continue that bashing back and forward but as it always is with biased people there is no point in that. I'll bring arguments which You wont be even reading but instantly trying to twist and fit into Your agenda. I see no point in that. Come when You'll have something reasonable to respond to because that post above is not worth responding since barely any of arguments I brought was discussed there. All it contains is some random trashtalking with lot of things being taken out of context and some of Your sentences contradicting one another.

BNOC

Juhasow wrote: »

I like how You went into next level of avoiding reality and now You're just responding to the pieces of my comment taken out of context and twisted. Sorry but at this point Youur bias is simply too obvious. I could continue that bashing back and forward but as it always is with biased people there is no point in that. I'll bring arguments which You wont be even reading but instantly trying to twist and fit into Your agenda. I see no point in that. Come when You'll have something reasonable to respond to because that post above is not worth responding since barely any of arguments I brought was discussed there. All it contains is some random trashtalking with lot of things being taken out of context and some of Your sentences contradicting one another.

Mate, you were writing paragraphs about how strong an old, outdated skill was. I responded to the bits I needed to and that were relevant, what do you think I had no response for? I'll answer them now.

My agenda consists of pointing out to clearly underpar players that Templars don't have everything, like you all seem to think.
I don't ask for nerfs to any class, I don't say any class has it all, I've even posted videos of Stam classes doing 35k almost unavoidable burst on other threads in response to "Templar OP" claims and never said it was a problem - I'm not fighting fire with fire, I'm fighting fire with water.

Juhasow wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Every person who asks for this to be nerfed should include which of their class cc or root skills they are willing to go without. Because the Templar is the only class without roots, and only has 2 cc skills, javelin which knocks enemies outside of your damage range, and toppling charge.

Eclipse/Unstable Core have a root component.. On top of that templar have very high amount of abilities that have snares as secondary effects.

When was the last time you have been rooted by Eclipse? Actually, when was the last time you saw a templar using that terrible ability?

Doesnt matter. You've said they dont have root and that is simply incorrect. Last time I saw templar was using eclipse was in Elsweyr when every templar was spamming Living Dark morph on cooldown. That is the issue with templar and reliable roots. Class already have so many snares that adding reliable root on top of that is too much.

That being said even Unstable Core is not as terrible as people trying to make it. It's just not needed for a class that have so easy acces to so many easy to apply snares with 60% snare from Living Dark being actually stronger then immobilizes. Still if You want You can have immobilize on templar You can have it so the point You've made in Your original post doesnt stand.

Your whole point is based on the fact you believe a 60% snare is more powerful than a 100% snare and that Templar wouldn't need compensation if CC's and things started being removed, because we these super powerful snares.

Let me ask: What do you want removed from Templar and what do you propose it's replaced with?

Juhasow

BNOC wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

I like how You went into next level of avoiding reality and now You're just responding to the pieces of my comment taken out of context and twisted. Sorry but at this point Youur bias is simply too obvious. I could continue that bashing back and forward but as it always is with biased people there is no point in that. I'll bring arguments which You wont be even reading but instantly trying to twist and fit into Your agenda. I see no point in that. Come when You'll have something reasonable to respond to because that post above is not worth responding since barely any of arguments I brought was discussed there. All it contains is some random trashtalking with lot of things being taken out of context and some of Your sentences contradicting one another.

Mate, you were writing paragraphs about how strong an old, outdated skill was. I responded to the bits I needed to and that were relevant, what do you think I had no response for? I'll answer them now.

My agenda consists of pointing out to clearly underpar players that Templars don't have everything, like you all seem to think.
I don't ask for nerfs to any class, I don't say any class has it all, I've even posted videos of Stam classes doing 35k almost unavoidable burst on other threads in response to "Templar OP" claims and never said it was a problem - I'm not fighting fire with fire, I'm fighting fire with water.

Juhasow wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Every person who asks for this to be nerfed should include which of their class cc or root skills they are willing to go without. Because the Templar is the only class without roots, and only has 2 cc skills, javelin which knocks enemies outside of your damage range, and toppling charge.

Eclipse/Unstable Core have a root component.. On top of that templar have very high amount of abilities that have snares as secondary effects.

When was the last time you have been rooted by Eclipse? Actually, when was the last time you saw a templar using that terrible ability?

Doesnt matter. You've said they dont have root and that is simply incorrect. Last time I saw templar was using eclipse was in Elsweyr when every templar was spamming Living Dark morph on cooldown. That is the issue with templar and reliable roots. Class already have so many snares that adding reliable root on top of that is too much.

That being said even Unstable Core is not as terrible as people trying to make it. It's just not needed for a class that have so easy acces to so many easy to apply snares with 60% snare from Living Dark being actually stronger then immobilizes. Still if You want You can have immobilize on templar You can have it so the point You've made in Your original post doesnt stand.

Your whole point is based on the fact you believe a 60% snare is more powerful than a 100% snare and that Templar wouldn't need compensation if CC's and things started being removed, because we these super powerful snares.

Let me ask: What do you want removed from Templar and what do you propose it's replaced with?

Wow You're twisting the meaning of what I said and taking things out of context even when You're using as argument that You're not doing it. That is some next level meme.

You never proved that I am underpared player. It looks like some issue with inflated ego on Your side. To actually prove that that I am underpared You would've to bring some constructive arguments that would undermine what I am saying but You're failing to do so. I never said templar have everything. It was me who pointed out 1st that balance is all about having certain things while not having others. I never said "60% snare is more powerfull then 100% snare". Sayng that I've said that is blatant lie which it looks like is main tools for You to support Your arguments. I said that 60% snare that can be passively applied from 36 meters radius and refreshed multiple times within 1 ability cast can be stronger then roots with small radius that requires targetting or single target roots. It's funny that You're mentioning that I am going for *** measuring cotest (which I dont because only time when I mentioned it was in context of Your person doing that) while in the same phrase You demand links of my videos which is basically *** measuring contest in its purest form. You fail to see the difference between people who knows how to play specific class and people who knows how balance works. Those 2 things requires different set of skills. If they wouldnt then future game balance developers would be looked among gaming contests winners because they're good at games lol.

Earthewen

I think a much better option would be to actually instill the immunities to the CC's. Right now, they are nonexistent. They need to be GLOBAL immunity. Once CC'ed, you are granted immunity after the effect ends no matter how it ends. NO ONE and no other skill can keep you locked down for say 5 seconds. Right now, it's just a zerg fest where 70 people can all hit you with CC's at the same and immunity is not sufficient to combat the zerg. Making the immunity really be viable would be a step in the right direction.

BNOC

Juhasow wrote: »

BNOC wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

I like how You went into next level of avoiding reality and now You're just responding to the pieces of my comment taken out of context and twisted. Sorry but at this point Youur bias is simply too obvious. I could continue that bashing back and forward but as it always is with biased people there is no point in that. I'll bring arguments which You wont be even reading but instantly trying to twist and fit into Your agenda. I see no point in that. Come when You'll have something reasonable to respond to because that post above is not worth responding since barely any of arguments I brought was discussed there. All it contains is some random trashtalking with lot of things being taken out of context and some of Your sentences contradicting one another.

Mate, you were writing paragraphs about how strong an old, outdated skill was. I responded to the bits I needed to and that were relevant, what do you think I had no response for? I'll answer them now.

My agenda consists of pointing out to clearly underpar players that Templars don't have everything, like you all seem to think.
I don't ask for nerfs to any class, I don't say any class has it all, I've even posted videos of Stam classes doing 35k almost unavoidable burst on other threads in response to "Templar OP" claims and never said it was a problem - I'm not fighting fire with fire, I'm fighting fire with water.

Juhasow wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Every person who asks for this to be nerfed should include which of their class cc or root skills they are willing to go without. Because the Templar is the only class without roots, and only has 2 cc skills, javelin which knocks enemies outside of your damage range, and toppling charge.

Eclipse/Unstable Core have a root component.. On top of that templar have very high amount of abilities that have snares as secondary effects.

When was the last time you have been rooted by Eclipse? Actually, when was the last time you saw a templar using that terrible ability?

Doesnt matter. You've said they dont have root and that is simply incorrect. Last time I saw templar was using eclipse was in Elsweyr when every templar was spamming Living Dark morph on cooldown. That is the issue with templar and reliable roots. Class already have so many snares that adding reliable root on top of that is too much.

That being said even Unstable Core is not as terrible as people trying to make it. It's just not needed for a class that have so easy acces to so many easy to apply snares with 60% snare from Living Dark being actually stronger then immobilizes. Still if You want You can have immobilize on templar You can have it so the point You've made in Your original post doesnt stand.

Your whole point is based on the fact you believe a 60% snare is more powerful than a 100% snare and that Templar wouldn't need compensation if CC's and things started being removed, because we these super powerful snares.

Let me ask: What do you want removed from Templar and what do you propose it's replaced with?

Wow You're twisting the meaning of what I said and taking things out of context even when You're using as argument that You're not doing it. That is some next level meme.

You never proved that I am underpared player. It looks like some issue with inflated ego on Your side. To actually prove that that I am underpared You would've to bring some constructive arguments that would undermine what I am saying but You're failing to do so. I never said templar have everything. It was me who pointed out 1st that balance is all about having certain things while not having others. I never said "60% snare is more powerfull then 100% snare". Sayng that I've said that is blatant lie which it looks like is main tools for You to support Your arguments. I said that 60% snare that can be passively applied from 36 meters radius and refreshed multiple times within 1 ability cast can be stronger then roots with small radius that requires targetting or single target roots. It's funny that You're mentioning that I am going for *** measuring cotest (which I dont because only time when I mentioned it was in context of Your person doing that) while in the same phrase You demand links of my videos which is basically *** measuring contest in its purest form. You fail to see the difference between people who knows how to play specific class and people who knows how balance works. Those 2 things requires different set of skills. If they wouldnt then future game balance developers would be looked among gaming contests winners because they're good at games lol.

Link some clips then man.

Here is exactly where you said 60% is stronger than 100%:

Juhasow wrote: »

That being said even Unstable Core is not as terrible as people trying to make it. It's just not needed for a class that have so easy acces to so many easy to apply snares with 60% snare from Living Dark being actually stronger then immobilizes.

I never said you were trying to measure up, I said that you thought that by me asking for clips of your gameplay, I was measuring up against you. I just wanna gauge how good you are in general, it's a 2 second job, I don't know why you wouldn't, you can PM me if you want, I won't share them.


Yes, I absolutely believe games should be balanced at the top tier. Why would you balance it around anything less?

Top players are either playing the class to its peak ability, or figuring out and exploiting the overpowered mechanics of said class, and are the only logical metric to determine a classes true strength - Not players who don't even know the difference between 60% and 100%.

If you keep balancing classes to cater underpar players, as they improve, they'll need to keep re-balancing (lo-and-behold, here we are, balancing to cater the casuals with significant changes every other month, stripping classes of identity until they're all shells of their former self)

I doubt there's many people at the top of their class asking for nerfs.

ZOS_FalcoYamaoka

Greetings,

Some posts were removed from this discussion. Please remember to keep your discussions on topic and civil.

UppGRAYxDD

Lmao at this thread complaining about toppling charge 😂😂😂 Honestly it hardly ever makes it on many longtime magplar’s skill bar in PvP due dodge roll and lag... it’s a crap shoot to land every time it’s cast. Also, enough with this nerf (x) business, we should be asking for buffs instead...

Juhasow

BNOC wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BNOC wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

I like how You went into next level of avoiding reality and now You're just responding to the pieces of my comment taken out of context and twisted. Sorry but at this point Youur bias is simply too obvious. I could continue that bashing back and forward but as it always is with biased people there is no point in that. I'll bring arguments which You wont be even reading but instantly trying to twist and fit into Your agenda. I see no point in that. Come when You'll have something reasonable to respond to because that post above is not worth responding since barely any of arguments I brought was discussed there. All it contains is some random trashtalking with lot of things being taken out of context and some of Your sentences contradicting one another.

Mate, you were writing paragraphs about how strong an old, outdated skill was. I responded to the bits I needed to and that were relevant, what do you think I had no response for? I'll answer them now.

My agenda consists of pointing out to clearly underpar players that Templars don't have everything, like you all seem to think.
I don't ask for nerfs to any class, I don't say any class has it all, I've even posted videos of Stam classes doing 35k almost unavoidable burst on other threads in response to "Templar OP" claims and never said it was a problem - I'm not fighting fire with fire, I'm fighting fire with water.

Juhasow wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Every person who asks for this to be nerfed should include which of their class cc or root skills they are willing to go without. Because the Templar is the only class without roots, and only has 2 cc skills, javelin which knocks enemies outside of your damage range, and toppling charge.

Eclipse/Unstable Core have a root component.. On top of that templar have very high amount of abilities that have snares as secondary effects.

When was the last time you have been rooted by Eclipse? Actually, when was the last time you saw a templar using that terrible ability?

Doesnt matter. You've said they dont have root and that is simply incorrect. Last time I saw templar was using eclipse was in Elsweyr when every templar was spamming Living Dark morph on cooldown. That is the issue with templar and reliable roots. Class already have so many snares that adding reliable root on top of that is too much.

That being said even Unstable Core is not as terrible as people trying to make it. It's just not needed for a class that have so easy acces to so many easy to apply snares with 60% snare from Living Dark being actually stronger then immobilizes. Still if You want You can have immobilize on templar You can have it so the point You've made in Your original post doesnt stand.

Your whole point is based on the fact you believe a 60% snare is more powerful than a 100% snare and that Templar wouldn't need compensation if CC's and things started being removed, because we these super powerful snares.

Let me ask: What do you want removed from Templar and what do you propose it's replaced with?

Wow You're twisting the meaning of what I said and taking things out of context even when You're using as argument that You're not doing it. That is some next level meme.

You never proved that I am underpared player. It looks like some issue with inflated ego on Your side. To actually prove that that I am underpared You would've to bring some constructive arguments that would undermine what I am saying but You're failing to do so. I never said templar have everything. It was me who pointed out 1st that balance is all about having certain things while not having others. I never said "60% snare is more powerfull then 100% snare". Sayng that I've said that is blatant lie which it looks like is main tools for You to support Your arguments. I said that 60% snare that can be passively applied from 36 meters radius and refreshed multiple times within 1 ability cast can be stronger then roots with small radius that requires targetting or single target roots. It's funny that You're mentioning that I am going for *** measuring cotest (which I dont because only time when I mentioned it was in context of Your person doing that) while in the same phrase You demand links of my videos which is basically *** measuring contest in its purest form. You fail to see the difference between people who knows how to play specific class and people who knows how balance works. Those 2 things requires different set of skills. If they wouldnt then future game balance developers would be looked among gaming contests winners because they're good at games lol.

Link some clips then man.

Here is exactly where you said 60% is stronger than 100%:

Juhasow wrote: »

That being said even Unstable Core is not as terrible as people trying to make it. It's just not needed for a class that have so easy acces to so many easy to apply snares with 60% snare from Living Dark being actually stronger then immobilizes.

I never said you were trying to measure up, I said that you thought that by me asking for clips of your gameplay, I was measuring up against you. I just wanna gauge how good you are in general, it's a 2 second job, I don't know why you wouldn't, you can PM me if you want, I won't share them.


Yes, I absolutely believe games should be balanced at the top tier. Why would you balance it around anything less?

Top players are either playing the class to its peak ability, or figuring out and exploiting the overpowered mechanics of said class, and are the only logical metric to determine a classes true strength - Not players who don't even know the difference between 60% and 100%.

If you keep balancing classes to cater underpar players, as they improve, they'll need to keep re-balancing (lo-and-behold, here we are, balancing to cater the casuals with significant changes every other month, stripping classes of identity until they're all shells of their former self)

I doubt there's many people at the top of their class asking for nerfs.

But what is the point of me linking anything ? How does it make anything more or less reliable ? You cannot judge weight of someones words based on their content but You need to see actual footage of someone playing to say wheter or not what he's saying is valuable ? You're so sobessive about that footage request that it looke like You cannot think on Your own but You need footage to help You thinking. That is kinda sad.

And once again You're trying to twist what I said and take it out of context. Here is what I excatly said about Living Dark snare strenght when I explained it what I had in mind

As for 60% snare from Living Dark being stronger then immobilizes I was comparing it to immobilizes other classes have. You know the ones that require You to actively target enemy or make sure he's in range of the ability before using them.

They way You cherrypick pieces of my comments to fit Your agenda is kinda repeatable and boring at this point. You contunie the same line of argumentation by simply ignoring everything that goes against it.

I dont know why You think everyone records his/her adventures in video games. There are people that dont care about those things as much as You and dont want to keep recordings of their video game fights for grandchildrens. Asking all the time for some clips is kinda silly. I am almost certain You have some issues with inflated ego at this point due to how many times You've mentioned about linking some videos like You want me to link something so then You can brag and link something back. Problem is it really doesnt matter how good or bad player someone is. What matters is wheter or not arguments of said person are reasonable or not or can You disprove them or not. And for that being top player is not necessary requirement. There is different type of skill needed to be top player at gameplay part and to be decent at understanding the balance.

It really doesnt matter what You think. All what matters is what developer thinks and developers thinks ESO is casual friendly game. Competitive games can or maybe even should be balanced at top tier. However ESO is not competitive game.

Once again using out of context twisted argument to supoort Your agenda. it's really becoming pathetic at this point. If it's Your only argument to blatantly lie that I said that 60% snare=immobilize in excatly that context then You really have zero arguments in this duscussion. Pretty sad for someone who thinks of himself that high to bring zero arguments to discussion and repeat 1 twisted argument all the time.

You're starting to go outside of the borders of the topic and despite the fact I dont agree with You on Your ideas about balance I will pass on discussing why because You've proved beyond any doubt Your bias is too strong to duscuss thngs connected to game balance.